Shannon Kennedy: Women in Language

Welcome to the actual fluency podcast. Each week you'll find inspirational, motivational interviews with some of the world's best language learners, industry experts, all trying to help you to learn foreign languages better, faster, and more efficiently. And here we go.

Yeah.

Um, so for the people who haven't heard about you and the people who did hear about you, do you want to give a little introduction to yourself, what you've been up to, and especially the last three years since, since we heard from you?

Sure. So, um, my name is Shannon Kennedy. I run a website called eurolinguist. Um, that's with an e at the end. And, uh, that's kind of how I got started in languages. I started learning them at university, and that site was kind of what I started to document that process and kind of share some of what I was doing, and it's really evolved from there.

Yeah, as, as usual and, uh, and you're also a musician, so you're releasing a new album coming up there as well, so, uh, people who are into jazz, they should definitely look you up as well.

Thank you.

Um, so, oh, I guess we should just quickly, uh, tell people what the Add One Challenge is. I'm not sure if everyone knows, so could you just let us know in two sentences what it is?

Sure. So the Add One Challenge is a 90-day challenge that helps you get to a 15-minute conversation in the language that you're learning in that 90 days.

Yeah, so it's like a, it's a group of learners who come together to create this like positive environment where you're more encouraged and motivated to do that regular daily studying. Or, or work, whatever that kind of studying might be.

Exactly. Yeah, so basically, it's, as you said, it's a community. So you're learning alongside, um, anywhere from 100 to 200 other learners, so there's a lot of motivation in that. You have a daily check-in so that you can keep accountable to your studies. You have a series of assignments of videos of mini-challenges that you do as a part of that curriculum that help you get to that 15-minute conversation.

Right. Yeah, I, I did one a few years back and it was a really positive experience, so I highly recommend it for people who are struggling a little bit. Maybe they don't have a lot of language learning friends in their immediate community or on their Facebook friends, then if you join this kind of community, you definitely feel kind of pushed a lot to, to do some work and get amazing results. Like some of the videos I've seen from Add One where people could barely say a word in the beginning, and then after three months, they actually have this kind of conversation. I think it's, uh, it's quite powerful.

Yeah, it's really great and I can tell you from personal experience because I try to do almost every challenge that I run, like to participate in it. And it's really helped me immensely with the different languages. I mean, I didn't know any Japanese. I didn't know any Hungarian before studying them with the Add One Challenge and I was able to get to those 15-minute conversations every single time. So if you do the work and you participate in the challenge, it's, it's really, really effective.

Yeah. And then something else coming up for the second time, which, uh, I think is the main topic of this episode, because, uh, it's very timely and last time we talked about introverted language learning, which I think is a very interesting topic. Uh, but I think we, we kind of went over what, what was the in it there and if people are introverted then, and want to learn languages better then definitely go back and listen to episode 93, there's really some good content there.

Of course. So Women in Language is an online event that is hosted by Lindsay Williams of Lindsay Does Languages, Kirsten Cable of Fluent Language dot co dot uk and myself. We started the event a year ago. Um, we had the first event, um, about around this time last year. And it was just amazing. Um, we had more than 25 speakers. We had several panels. We had, um, chats during the conference that were just on fire. It was an amazing community-building experience. It was a great chance for us to give, um, speakers who don't normally go to the polyglot events or who don't normally present at the polyglot events the chance to present.

Fantastic. Um, before we get into, uh, the, uh, the, the sort of, uh, the elephant in the room, uh, topic in a second. I just wanted to maybe talk a little bit about language events in general, like, um, I think a big, uh, you know, I think language events for me changed my life completely, and, and that's, you know, maybe it sounds a little bit exaggerated, but when I went to the first polyglot gathering in Berlin in 2014, I didn't know what to expect at all, and I wasn't someone who had been studying languages for years before. I, I'd done it when I was younger, much younger in school, and then I sort of gave up on it in my teens and, and early 20s, and I've kind of refound it through this community and I, I went to the gathering and just a mind-blowing experience of, of positivity and, and amazement that some people can just, you know, there were people there who spoke 15 languages and just switched between them.

Absolutely. So first I want to start by saying that, um, like when we're talking about language learning, we're mostly talking about independent language learning. And the thing about independent language learning is that it feels really, really lonely. Because basically you're by yourself in your room at your desk or wherever it is that you enjoy studying, working on this language. Um, maybe you have an exchange partner or maybe you have a tutor that you chat with every so often, but for the most part, 90% of the work you're doing is by yourself. And a lot of the time when you're doing this, the people immediately around you, like your friends and family, they probably aren't into language learning in the same way that you are. And so you can feel a little bit isolated and you feel like no one really understands why you enjoy doing this, why you spend so much time doing this.

Yeah. And I, I mean, a very, I, I completely agree with what you just said, and it's a very positive experience. Even in, uh, you know, if you talked about other things like sports and stuff, people see one game or they see one race, but the reason that that person won that race or that game is because of all the 5:00 AM trainings, and all the, you know, gym sessions, and all the coaching, everything that's led up to there, which you'd never see, of course. Uh, it just looks effortless when, uh, Bolt is running the 100 meters or, you know, Federer is playing tennis or whatever. It looks easy, but obviously that, they've practiced for hours and hours and hours away from the courts.

Exactly. I think, you know, both have their place. The in-person events are great if you can afford to get there, if you can take the time to go, but online events, more people can go. It tends to be much more affordable. You don't have to pay for travel at all. Um, you also, um, because it's online, the nature of it, you know, you can have the online recordings after. There's other elements that you can add, like workbooks and chat and things like that that add this different level of engagement that you don't have at the in-person events because, you know, in the in-person events, you're going to different talks, you're spending time talking to people outside, and if you miss a talk, you miss a talk. Whereas with the online events, you can go back and watch the recording. Um, you can kind of be in more than one chat room at the same time because you just tab over to a new window. Um, there's, you know, they're just different and they complement one another. I definitely think there's a space for both.

Definitely. And, and I like the idea of having both also because then you have different opportunities during different times of year, uh, where you can, you know, if you had to go to all the conferences, right? This year's in Japan, Canada, Bratislava, I mean, that's three continents, you know, no matter where you live in the world, that would be obscenely expensive and inconvenient to get to all three. Um, so, you know, the idea to have some online events everyone can get to, I think it's fantastic.

Right. And it's not just the participant, it's the speakers too. So when you have an online event, there's speakers that you can, you know, feature that you might not be able to feature at an in-person event because again, that speaker might not be able to get to that event. So it's, you know, there's a lot more variety that you can have as far as participants and as far as speakers with an online event.

Yeah, definitely agree. So what kind of, uh, do you have any, uh, sort of any examples of the kind of talks that are gonna happen? Like what, what are the speakers gonna be talking about?

Of course. So we have four different tracks that make up women in language. So the first is learning languages. Last year, this was split into two categories. So we had new languages and mastering languages or starting languages and mastering languages. So we decided to combine these two into just learning languages in general this year. So that's going to be talks for learners of languages of any level who want to improve, you know, their learning strategies and, um, to pick up new methods for learning languages.

Right. Fantastic. There's a definitely a good variety there. And, uh, I always, I always like, actually, two of the things you said, I, I really like. I like the methods and tactics, so learning how other people do it, because I find that it inspires me to try new things and, and potentially find things that I really enjoy doing. And the second one was the stories. I think, I think you said stories, you use the word stories. Um, I just love how, listening how people use languages in kind of unusual ways or definitely non-standard ways, especially with travels. Like, uh, that's one of the big advantages to language learning. I find is that even if you just learn a little bit of a language, if you go there and use it, it's really life-changing for you and, and the person you, you speak it with. Even if it's just a hello, because they're not used to, in most countries, anyway, they're not used to people just learning their language, uh, foreigners learning their language. So those are my two favorite categories. Obviously, a big part of this podcast is, is exactly that stories and, and tactics. Maybe I should have called it that instead, actually. Language learning stories and tactics.

Yes, that's correct.

Um, so I guess a lot of people listening to this and I, I might have been like this as well when I heard about it first time is, why, why do we need that kind of, uh, focus on, on the women in languages, like, the polyglot events, I, they're not, as far as I know, anyway, not particularly, uh, um, segregated, you know, they're not, there's not a huge bias towards the, the, the male participants. So, so how did you decide to start that kind of process and do you want to talk about kind of the, uh, the aims you have with, with this?

So we wanted to create this event to give women in language the opportunity to speak to champion and amplify their voices. Um, you know, at some of the language events, you know, it's not, like, there weren't, there still aren't as many female speakers as male speakers. I know that that's improving, but we just wanted to provide a place where women could kind of get the spotlight, where, you know, if there's a panel, it's not five men and one woman, woman.

We'll just take a quick break to hear from one of our sponsors, and then we'll be right back.

I understand that some people are going to be put off by that, but that's not who we're trying to support in this. Um, I mean, obviously, we support anyone in languages, but with this particular event, we're looking to have strictly female speakers. And, um, you know, if someone has an issue with the fact that it's an all-female speaker that might be an issue, um, not necessarily with us, but, you know, on the other side, I, of course, if, you know, we want to support women in language and, you know, historically in a variety of industries, you know, women haven't had as much opportunity as men, and so we're just trying to create a little bit more opportunity.

Cool. Yeah, thank you. Sorry for putting you on the spot, but I, I just know that people are gonna be sitting out there thinking, Women in language? That's a, that's a special name, you know, for, for an online language conference, you know. It's not a a gendered, uh, activity in any way, so, uh, so I just wanted to address it there and I, I think, for me personally also, just to give my two cents, for the first one, I wasn't really that supportive, because I was like, well, why do we need this?

See, that's exactly why we're doing it.

Yeah, exactly. So, so I think that I can, I can definitely relate if people are, you know, you know, maybe, uh, sipping their coffee and thinking, what, why? But the fact that people want to see it, like speakers want to speak at it, you guys want to take the time to actually set it up, host it, market it, you know, that's a big job, even if you split it among three people. And people want to come and see it, then how dare anyone say, well, that's a bad idea, you know. It doesn't matter what the setup is, but if, if so many people want it and so many people want to spend the time on it, it's, it must be valuable, you know. So that's kind of how I went from, from, from the last year. And, um, I'm happy that you continue with it and we'll, we're looking forward to see, uh, the interesting talks this year and I'll be definitely checking out the participants list and get some new podcast invitations sent off, uh, to, uh, to talk to a lot more interesting people as well this season.

Excellent.

So yeah, that's a fantastic. And, um, are you gonna be doing any talks there, or you're just gonna do the hosting?

So Lindsay, Kristy and I don't talk at the main event. We do other smaller events, like the Women in Language Camp, where we do speak. Um, we did one this past October. Um, but really we want to kind of take ourselves out of the spotlight and give other people the chance to, you know, kind of discuss their work and what they're doing.

Right. Yeah, I guess the, the one downside to having all these conferences around the world that kind of move around is that the people get to go and speak to a lot of them and or participate in many of them often, you know, you, you are looking at a very big portion of them being in their, you know, 20, 20 to 30, maybe, 20 to 35 with, without, like, a huge obligation or anything. Maybe they're, uh, location independent, working online or something.

Well, I mean, it's really inspiring to hear stories like that. So I, I understand the appeal plus it's, you know, it's sexy, but at the same time, you know, you also want to make sure that, you know, the questions and the needs of, you know, other people are being met as well. So it's just, you know, with women in language, you know, we just want to create more diversity, more diversity in speakers, more diversity in the topics that are brought up in this environment. Um, and then, you know, it's just, again, like, there's places for both. So,

Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely, I love those stories, don't get me wrong. Uh, but it's hard to relate to. Even for me, who I, I'm, I'm location independent and can definitely travel a lot, but some of these people are have done amazing things. And it's very inspirational, I love to hear the stories, but I can imagine a lot of people are thinking, that's really far from, from my kind of reality. So if you have a better better mix or a chance to show or talk about other topics that affect more people, then I think that's also a great idea.

Mm, yeah.

What kind of other topics do you think that, I don't know, it could be topics that are on the Women in Language conference as well, but what other topics do you feel like in, in language learning, maybe comparing it to the events that are kind of underrepresented, if any?

Um, I think we talk a lot about how to help your children learn more languages, but, um, we don't necessarily talk about how you as a parent can, you know, find time to learn languages or, you know, things that you can do as a family, like getting your kids involved in the language that you're learning as a way for you to continue your studies and also kind of get them interested.

Right. Yeah, I definitely see that a lot where the, the talk, a lot about methods and strategies and I think the one, the biggest thing I've realized after all these interviews, after all these years of kind of, let's call it amateur research into polyglots, is that the way you do things are not quite as important as your entire kind of mindset and, you know, the, the mental side of things.

Well, again, I think it depends on the person. I mean, there may be people who need a talk on how to better improve their use of Anki. Whereas there's people who don't need that. So again, you know, just having more variation in the kinds of talks that are out there and the kinds of people who are presenting those talks, um, you're going to help people who may not be helped by one, and then the other people are going to be covered by the other ones. So just by the nature of having this diversity of having this availability, and that's the great thing about being online is that, you know, is accessibility. So, um, you know, there's a, again, there's a place for everything, um, and people are going to benefit from these different kinds of talks, but just by creating an environment where both kinds can happen.

Yeah. And that's the great thing about language events in general, also the online event is that if you see a talk that doesn't interest you, well, you can just skip it or, you know, you go have a coffee instead or, or, you know, there's even, even if multiple topics interest you at the same time, you can always go back and watch the recording so you don't miss anything. Uh, luckily, most of the in-person conferences are also recorded. Uh, obviously, it takes quite a while for them to edit everything and the audio is not great and so, in that sense, an online event is much better, but I like the idea that I look at a kind of a schedule of speakers and I'm like, okay, this is interesting for me, this is interesting for me, and and go for those. Like I, I wouldn't be interested in how to teach your kid a language, not yet anyway. It might come later, a few years time, but for now, it's not relevant to me, whereas somebody might be like, dying to find out more about that. Uh, which is a very difficult topic, and, uh,

That's true, but even if you're not interested in it, going to a talk like that, you may learn about techniques for time management or resources or, um, you know, techniques for learning alongside someone else or techniques for teaching someone else that you might not have picked up in a different kind of talk.

Hmm, interesting. Yeah, that's definitely, uh, that's definitely true. So you would say if you're, let's say you if you're attending Women in Language or another conference, it doesn't matter which one. Um, you would have, you would suggest that people watch or kind of follow along because then you don't know necessarily what you can learn based on the title and description, so just kind of diving in and you might learn things you'd never even expected.

Exactly. We can go back to the introversion thing as an example. So, I'm an introvert, I'm shy, and I talk about this a lot and how it relates to language learning and the things that I do as an introverted, shy language learner. And someone who's extroverted might think, oh, I'm extroverted, this doesn't apply to me. But I've had tons of extroverts attend my talks and tell me that they've walked away with a lot of techniques that they can use to improve their language learning experiences. So, it's just a little bit of open-mindedness. You may not think, okay, that's not for me, but I would still recommend trying, you know, It can still not be for you. That's okay. It doesn't have to be for you, but just because on a surface level, you know, on paper, it doesn't look like it's for you, doesn't necessarily mean that that's actually the case.

Well, that's a, that's a totally fair point. And I, I definitely, uh, admit to being a little bit close-minded sometimes with when it comes to talks, uh, especially at the live conferences, but I think that's different, because that there I kind of prioritize talking to friends and and people in the hall who I haven't seen in a while, so I'm a little bit more strict with what I attend, but you're right, I probably would get a lot out of attending a talk every time I had the opportunity.

Well, you can just challenge yourself to attend like maybe one talk that would maybe be outside of your comfort zone or something that you wouldn't normally attend. Just a good personal experiment, I think.

Right. That sounds like fun. I imagine like a a badge or something. The one talk challenge or something every day you pick up something that you would never have gone to, but you go anyway and and see how that, where that takes you.

That sounds like a really fun idea.

We'll, we'll have to set that up for the for the next conference. Um, but Shannon, thank you so much for, for coming on the show today and, uh, sharing your, your experience with hosting your own conference. I mean, it must have been a lot of work as well between you, so, so thank you for putting on the show and everything you do with the Add One and, and now Drops, your your little software project as well has won numerous awards I saw it in the App Store and, uh, this like, uh, accolades everywhere, trophies everywhere, so, so congrats on that, the work you do with that.

Thank you.

Um, maybe, actually, just before we finish, maybe that's a good little, uh, side note to put in there. Uh, so how did you get involved with, with an app like Drops?

Um, good question. I got involved because, um, I actually started using Drops like right when they started, when they only had, I believe, four languages. It was around the time that I was working on my like, kind of quick Italian refresh project for Fluent in 3 Months. And, um, I just loved the app. I love that it was just it limited me to five minutes that I, you know, was really working to maximize that five minutes. Um, so I kind of ranted and raved about it and because of that, they got in touch with me.

What do you think the big, uh, the big, uh, kind of differentiating factor is between Drops and and similar, because it, it's a, it's a flashcard concept where you get the, um, what do you call it? The, you don't forget, uh, the forgetting curve, you use that, uh, principle, but, but what do you think separates Drops, I think, first of all, it's a beautiful app for me, but are there any other things that separate it from, let's say, maybe not Duolingo, but something like Memrise or or the flashcard apps like Anki or there's like hundreds of them.

So the first is that we're not actually a flashcard app. Um, we are a vocabulary learning app, and we just focus on that one thing. We only teach vocabulary. So we don't try to do everything. We don't try to tackle grammar. We don't try to tackle, um, anything like that. We're just a vocabulary app.

Yeah, and obviously you talked a lot about the, the technical stuff, but I, I just wanted to emphasize just how, how nice it is, it's a really pretty, uh, app, it's really well designed and the animations that it brings up, it, it's like, yeah, it just brings a little bit of happiness to your learning. I think, uh, the way it kind of goes.

And it's your language learning beautiful.

And, that should be like the tag line of the app. Fantastic. Well, um, now it's definitely, uh, we can end it the show here and, and yeah, thank you so much for, for sharing your passion as, as always and, uh, I hope that people go and check out Women in Language. So, so what's the, where do they go to find out more? And it's really soon, so if you're listening to this, you know, go and, uh, get your ticket now because it's, uh, it's very soon. So, it's, uh, March, uh,

When was it? It's, um, March 7th to March 10th and you can buy tickets up until the last day of the event. So, because you're able to watch the recordings, so you can buy tickets up until March 10th and you can get them at womeninlanguage.com.

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Shannon. Looking forward to it.

Thank you so much. Thank you again for having me.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Actual Fluency Podcast. I really appreciate having you here today.