Katie Harris: The Joy of Languages

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Hey everyone, and welcome to episode 144 of the actual fluency podcast. Today, I'm joined by Katie Harris, who's the founder of the blog Joy of Languages, and Katie fell in love with languages as soon as she realized she could learn them by doing fun stuff like going to the pub with native speakers or watching Netflix. She speaks Italian, French, Spanish, as well as some German and Chinese, and believes that there's no such thing as being bad at languages. With the right strategies, anyone could learn. And this is something I believe in completely as well. I don't think there's a language learning gene or some people are better than others. I think with the right methods and with the right attitude, which is very important, anyone can really learn a foreign language. If you think about it, we've all all done it at least once, right? Yeah, okay, that was with a lot of help and certainly a lot of input, but, uh, you know, it is possible.

So, in the episode today, we talk about Katie's journey and why she created Joy of Languages and what her future plans are. So, check out the episode and I'll see you in the next one.

Cool. Well, Katie, welcome to the actual fluency podcast. It's a pleasure to have you.

So, it was I, yeah, I didn't particularly have a positive experience with languages at school, um, like most people. I was actually the bottom of the class. I was, uh, it was just something I just didn't really understand, like, trying to remember verbs and and vocabulary and I just didn't really get what languages were as a subject. I think it it felt like it all went over my head and it was very confusing. And I had a similar experience at university like that. I tried to take Italian as an elective and so, same problems.

And then, after about two years of really, really struggling with Italian as an elective at university, I went to a a language course in Rome, where it was totally different. The teacher had no books, no pens and paper, and and she just made us talk about things that that were interesting and and gave us feedback. And that was when I discovered, of course, it it it was it was a a struggle at first, but it that was when I discovered that actually languages are about communication. And when you have patient teachers who encourage you to use the language for communication, rather than just trying to memorize stuff, that they can actually be really, really fun and enjoyable to learn.

Yeah, so, I guess that's how it all started anyway, and then since then I since I discovered that that that really worked for me, learning Italian, so to just try and force myself to to speak it, even if I didn't necessarily know the perfect way to express things, I I set myself a little rule. So, I came to Italy to study abroad and I said, okay, a whole year try not to speak any English, unless it's with with friends and family.

Um, and I did that, and at the beginning, it was really, really difficult. But but through through doing that, I met um, some really nice Italians. I at the beginning, they didn't really want to talk to me that much, because I didn't speak Italian that well. So, communication was quite difficult. But over time, I I made Italian friends and and it over time, it was a really positive experience. I I got more into the culture. And I think that was what made me fall in love with languages, so then I thought, ah, wouldn't it be cool to do this with French? So, that then I could connect with French people.

And so I this wasn't through immersion. Um, I I started studying French in it in Italy, but I I was doing it trying to still use it for for communication. So, I would meet French people, uh, French tutors, and try and have conversations with them. Uh, try and read and listen a lot in French. And that after a while, after a couple of years, that seemed to to work. I went to Paris and I I could talk to people. It was a a little bit slow and embarrassing at first, but over time, just like with Italian, it it started to work. And then after that, that that was just it really. I was like, this is amazing. I can learn learn these languages and and connect with people. So, I've just been learning languages ever since.

Um, you really need a teacher to go above and beyond and really break with the norm and do a lot of interaction and like, games, and music, and and really get the students involved, uh, because otherwise they just don't care about it.

And they're, unfortunately, the tests are not very good either. Uh, because we're testing people or students in in those years is basically about, what does this mean? Like word wise, you know? Or summarize this very easy text, or read this, or, you know? And and unfortunately reading and understanding a piece of text is very, very far from asking even the simplest of questions to a a native speaker.

Um, Yeah. But hopefully, I mean, I have to say, go ahead. Yeah, hopefully, we can improve that through all these initiatives and, uh, podcasts and, uh, and conferences and, hopefully, it will spill over to the educational world and we can get some slightly better language classes. That'll be great.

But I think it's in in the past, certainly, the education system has done has done some damage, uh, because it's yeah, it's it at least when I was at school, it made people think that language learning was a certain way without realizing that actually, um, there are many other ways to to to learn a language, more effective ways, just by, um, I I think the main thing that I felt when I was at school was that learning a language was all about, um, getting ready for talking to a native speaker. Um, that was almost like the final performance, which which you would do maybe after three, four or five years of learning the language in classes. So, it was all kind of about preparation.

Whereas now I realize that that actually, for me, um, you can't kind of uh, well, I guess and it it's all about preparation and then trying to learn enough so that you won't make mistakes when you start speaking. Whereas, for me, now I realize it's all about, um, just throwing myself in at the deep end at the beginning, looking like an idiot. And if I do that long enough, uh, eventually, I won't look so much like an idiot anymore.

You know, so, so expect that you will make mistakes. It will feel uncomfortable at the beginning. But if you just push past that, then that's that's how you'll learn, rather than it being like, no, you have to learn all of this so that so that you won't go through that uncomfortable stage. Because for me, it's not really it that's not really possible. You have to go through that stage.

So, how could they ever be expected to speak to someone in a different language as well? Uh, it's obviously difficult, uh, to, uh, to find a a common way that could work for everyone.

But I think pushing people to speak sooner is a is a good quick win for for everyone, I think. Because if we can encourage more early on, then those early wins usually translate into longer term success, rather than just preparing and preparing and never really getting anywhere.

Um, but there are also, you know, for example, like a like Steve Kaufman, or, um, Kaufman, I don't in in my UK accent. People who so, I think there there is absolutely nothing wrong and I've recommended this to people before, people who are real introverts. There's nothing wrong with, uh, spending a long, long time at the beginning without speaking.

But I I think the difference is that so, just to clarify, uh, so, Steve, uh, Kaufman does lots of reading and listening at the beginning. So, he kind of tries to absorb the the language as much as possible before he starts speaking. And I think there's lots of people follow that technique and it seems to work for them.

And I I think that that is a good technique as well. So, you don't necessarily have to start speaking from day one, but the difference is that there you are still using the language.

I think that Steve's method is quite advanced. I think it's quite hardcore as well. So, I would I would, I would be surprised if many new language learners, the people we're trying to maybe rope in with with this discussion, would find that particularly enjoyable, because it's very much focused on doing a lot of reading, a lot of, uh, like passive, like you said, passive skill building.

Whereas something like, just to take the polar opposite, something like Benny where you learn three words and you go and shout at some, uh, you know, it's the complete opposite. It's it's the minimum viable sentence or language, uh, you know, I I I probably somewhere in between is probably the best, but it's probably the people who think you can only do it one way that need to see that you can actually do both, and there's a whole spectrum. Uh, it's not easy though.

But but the difference here is that, um, so the difference compared to, for example, when going back to when I was at school is that here, even if you're not speaking, even if you're just, so, you could start, for example, with very, very, very simple text. So, it's not so hardcore. Uh, texts that have been adapted for beginners. Right.

But the but the real key there is that you're you're not just learning things in isolation. You know, it's not the like, well, I'll learn all of these grammar rules, and I'll learn all of this vocabulary, and then one day I'll be able to put them together and understand what I read or or understand what I listen, or or what I hear, or

Because it's a fallacy. It's a fallacy that that's how you learn a language. Like, you don't Yeah. You don't do it by learning everything and then the puzzle connects, and then you suddenly are fluent.

Um, that person would probably gain the most, I think, from getting a tutor early on. Uh, like an Italki tutor or or otherwise. Uh, because I think often there's these, uh, limiting beliefs that classes and tutoring is quite expensive and quite hard to find, or you need to find, you know, you need to go to some school or it's in the evening somewhere far away.

Um, whereas the reality is that now you can hire somebody to come on Skype, like we're talking now, for a couple of dollars an hour.

Um, so that opportunity is really open to everyone. And the teacher, if you find a good one, can really support you from the level you are at. Like, I remember for my Russian. I was so terrible at Russian that we could barely speak together. But she was so patient, and we we ended up speaking for an hour. And it was so slow and, you know, if you listen to it, you would think, what are these idiots doing, you know? It's a complete waste of time.

But it really gave me a massive win and and a real sense of achievement that, whoa, I just spoke in Russian for an hour. Okay, it was mostly incorrect grammar and it was very slow. But the person in the call understood what I was saying. And that's the whole aim of languages. So, if anything, I'd like to push that.

So, it's helped me to learn more languages more quickly. So, yeah, I would totally, totally agree with that. Um, if you're really, really introvert and you think, like, no, there's no way I could do that, then I think there is something to be said for spending a long time absorbing the language.

But and you can choose which one works. But I I think we could kind of, um, develop or we could come up with a new catchphrase. Like, instead of, um, speak from day one, it could just be like, get your hands dirty from day one.

And also, how you use the materials. So, I would say, it's better to do something every day that might not be, quote unquote, ideal, than it is to sit around, do nothing because you haven't found the ideal method yet.

Because, uh, that time it it's funny that our perception of time is so it's so warped in a way, because we imagine school and we think, oh, okay, I've had German for eight years. Oh my God, I've had endless hours of German. But I actually did the math and the number came to something like 300 hours.

So, if you if you think about it, an hour a day, that's 365 or I suppose, hours of, uh, language study a year, which is more than what I did in eight years of study. Okay, it wasn't a focused language program, don't get me wrong.

But it's sometimes we we need to look at the hours and not the the years or even months or weeks, because you can just get so much in and and you'll be surprised how quick you can learn compared to the classes, uh, because you can't compare it, you know?

So, it it's very difficult to to answer. Whereas I, yeah, I agree, a more meaningful question is maybe, um,

And I was just only at about a B1 bordering on B2 level. And it was just like, yeah, I was happy that I could speak German. I was fully functional. You know, I could understand 99% of what people were saying. I could make myself understood without using a word of English. Obviously, with grammar mistakes here and there.

But I was just a bit frustrated, because I thought, I spent eight years on this. But then, as I did the math, I realized, well, that explains everything, because just because you spent eight years doesn't mean that I spent a lot of time on it. It just it took a long time to get those hours in.

Uh, and I could use that for my Russian as well, because I was like, okay, I've been studying Russian for years now, and I've just nowhere near my goal. And I started adding up like my feeble efforts and it was like, well, Chris, you've spent 100 hours on it. How far do you expect to be, you know?

Um, Yeah. And it's really important to to look at it that way.

Um, because, you know, everybody does it. And it's it can be really, really demotivating. And and I totally agree that actually, when you think about it like that, and you can, um, if you think about it in terms of the amount of hours you've spent studying, and there's there's also the CEFR framework, which just it's a very, very rough guide, um, to to what kind of level you should be after a certain number of hours that you've spent studying.

And that's usually, like you said, that's usually really, really reassuring. Because you can see actually that, um, you're most of the time you're roughly around the level you should be after the amount of time you've spent studying.

So, uh, you know, the the levels are a little bit weird in that sense that you can be B1 by being, you know, A1 in writing and C1 in speaking or something like that.

And, um, yeah, they are they are a good indication. They're the best indication we have. But even then, they're not always ideal.

Because, yeah, it's important to have a testing or some kind of body that can issue, well, is it important? I don't even know. I mean, some organizations want you to present a a certificate to do certain things, like language teachers and that kind of thing.

It's a bit like doing IQ tests or intelligence tests. Basically, if if somebody can publish a book that says, here's how to get better, here's how to get better results from the IQ test. You suddenly no longer testing the intelligence of the of the test taker. You're just testing how well that person can prepare for for the test itself.

And and languages are exactly the same. Like, I saw my friend Gareth from How to Get Fluent, he did the Russian C1 exam. And he he eventually passed it. But when you read his preparation, none of his preparation was really about getting better at Russian. It was getting better at the at at taking the test, which had very specific tasks in it.

So, in a way, he was getting better at Russian. But it was like something like, write a 50-word fax, you know?

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And that's what we tend to focus on in the lessons, really, because I want them to get a good result in the test.

And if if I do it, I always try and leave the actual preparation for the exam right until the end, because it's so maybe the last couple of months, last few weeks.

Because if I don't do that, then I end up, um, like with my, um, I did the French C1 exam, and I ended up spending a few weeks learning stuff like, eight different ways to say, however, in formal writing and,

But if you have a language exam goal, then you know very specifically what the requirements for each, uh, are. Uh, so, something like, being able to understand a certain length of text, being able to compose certain things, understanding the listening.

Um, and the other one is simply if you need it for academic, career, or, yeah, any kind of opportunity reasons. Like, if if your employer is paying a multilingual bonus. I think that's what doing. Or if you're

But as the sort of casual language learner, I really find the find it unlikely to be of much use to take these exams, because like like we said, the the test comprise all four key areas, right? Like, reading, speaking, listening and writing.

And if your goal is not to read Shakespeare in English, then, well, maybe that doesn't even make sense, because that's old English. So, English speakers have trouble with that too.

Um, but but you know what I mean? Like, if you if your goal is not to read, uh, post, uh, postmodern, uh, you know, uh, big books that are really difficult, then, you know, why would you need to have a score high in in sort of reading comprehension? If you just want to

No, I don't actually do that. I tell them as well, because I think it's useful for them to know that, um, sometimes, so, once you get to higher levels with reading, it's almost like as if the examiner has kind of said, okay, well, now you're at an advanced level. So, usually, people at an advanced level can almost understand everything they read.

So, it's kind of I mean, I guess there's one argument that, well, that's it's also teaching you academic skills in that language. So, you have to be able to interpret the question in the right way.

But I think certainly if you want to just prove that you're getting closer to to a native speaker. If your idea of advanced is moving towards being like an average native speaker, not moving towards, not being exactly like, because even at C2 there's still a big difference.

But, um, yeah, that's that's not necessarily that useful, taking a test where there are questions that native speakers can't answer.

Um, but that's just, uh, I think that's part and parcel of, uh, being a language learner. You have to accept that, even though it's not always easy. And there's a lot of things that are working against you.

But yeah, take the test if you if you think it'll help you. I think it's a nice goal to have. Did you like

Um, and and when you're preparing for the, when you're preparing for the exam. Yeah, maybe maybe 30% of it, or 20% of it is testing techniques and and it's annoying, because there are questions that even native speakers can't answer, but I think they are still worthwhile in the fact that maybe the the 70, 80% of it, you are learning. You are practicing listening and reading and writing and speaking in the language. So, of course, when you're practicing all of that, your level is going to improve.

Um, like my Italian level, no, I feel like maybe with the Italian one, I just learned test techniques, actually. But, um, so, certainly with the, yeah. Uh, certainly with the French one, um, yeah, I learned some techniques. Um, I guess techniques, but I basically I was just learning formal French, which I wasn't that interested in learning.

Um, but, you know, overall, it was a positive experience and I learned a lot more French than I would have done if I hadn't set myself that goal, because I just had that motivation, and I was practicing reading and listening and writing and speaking a lot for for very intensively for a few weeks.

But over a few months, because I could kind of feel it looming. So, I knew that I had to to listen to as much French as possible and practice reading and. So, yeah, I think overall, it's a positive experience, but it's it's really important to evaluate why you want to do the test and and know that there are these kind of these problems with them as well.

But maybe people can do other goals similar to that without paying 200 pounds to, uh, Institut Français or something.

And and I could just see this this difference between, you know, how people who were really struggling with learning languages seemed to be learning them the the way that I used to learn them, and the way that I really, really struggled with. So, I wanted to open a space to be able to talk about, um, yeah, using, uh, making learning languages fun and how how learning languages can be fun, and and that way, it can be more motivating, and you can make more progress.

And also because I'd I'd found this passion for languages now. So, I wanted to find a way to make, uh, to work, um, by doing something that I really, really enjoyed, which was, um, learning languages and sharing, um, sharing what I learned along the way and and helping other people learn languages as well.

And the the textbook, I wasn't particularly interested in the topics that were in the textbook. And just going back to this idea as well, I think about it all being an idea of of preparation and that I had to do this for years and years and years. And once I'd remembered enough lists, then I could go out and talk to people.

Whereas now I I start try and speak as soon as possible, to connect with people from from the culture. Uh, so, by online I use Italki as well. Um, via online classes. And just finding, I guess, essentially, as a broad difference in approach, now, the main thing that I try and do is to find things, find ways to learn the language that I enjoy.

So, for me, that is finding people I can connect with, even if it's only, you know, if I'm a beginner, and conversation is is really a struggle. Um, they can help me a little bit in English as well. But just just having that figure of a person that I can connect with and someone from that culture in my life makes me a lot, lot, lot more motivated.

Because otherwise, you know, it's it's going to be difficult. I can't expect them to spend an hour of me trying to string a sentence together if I don't pay them at the beginning.

Um, you know, with time I I might be able to make friends in the language later on and I I do and I have that's what that's often one of my goals in the language. But certainly at the beginning, it would be with a tutor.

And but then I also have the input side of it. So, I'm a big believer in finding input that you enjoy reading, reading and listening. At the beginning, this this is likely to be things that are made for beginner language learners. So, things like podcasts, um, great graded readers. So, books that have been made simple for language learners.

Um, and then but then as soon as I can, I'll start to try and use things, um, yeah, maybe read some simple blog posts and there's the Google translate add on that you can use that's really, really cool. You just click on, uh, once you install the extension, you just click on a word and it translates it for you on page. So, that makes the reading a lot easier.

Um, but yeah, I would say it's kind of it's a balance between output, trying to talk to people I like, and input, trying to read and listen to things that I find interesting.

Or, uh, all that kind of stuff. I think it it is certainly a lack of output, but also, um, a lack of learner training in in trying to in trying to train language learners to to show them how they can find ways to learn that they enjoy via input as well. So, reading and listening, which which is difficult at the beginning.

But imagine if you're, you know, just getting out of primary school and where would you even encounter any of this? Uh, like, uh, wouldn't call it go as far as call it wisdom. I mean, that might be a little self-inflating. But, you know, definitely tips and tricks about where would you ever get that idea?

Uh, so, it's kind of a, like, learner training is something that I haven't heard that word or phrase used before, but I think that makes a lot of sense that that's that's essentially what we're all doing. Well, Yeah. This podcast is all about learner training, really. Because I think, at least I think part of the problem with writing, part of what makes it so difficult is that we put so much pressure on ourselves for it to be good.

So, really, really simple tasks like, um, five things that I noticed today. Or,

Um, but as you say, at the beginning, it is it's a bit of a struggle. It still is even at the end for me.

And and if we're discussing these things a little bit light, as in, uh, oh, that's easy to do, just do this. Then, uh, make no mistake. It's definitely not, uh, the intention to give off, uh, it's just, uh, I think it's it's the balance of encouraging people to try new things and also still trying to say that it's, you know, it you don't learn a language overnight just because you picked No. You know, which is the trap I sometimes fall into here.

And and that's not even because I'm I'm not even a very good language learner at all, actually. So, it's not because I'm sharing my own, oh, this is how I learned eight languages, like some some other people would be able to share in the podcast and often have done.

But it's just I talk about it so much with people that I almost have a perfect theoretical understanding of it.

But in reality, if you're in it, you know, it takes a lot of organization, discipline, uh, motivation to keep going and and getting that hour done every day that we talked about earlier.

I would say it's learning one thing that I've learned that's made me better at learning languages compared to how it used to be is learning the right things to struggle on.

But it's there are certain things that I know if I struggle with them, and I persevere, then eventually, I will end up speaking the language. Yes.

So, for example, like we were saying before. I guess it it's uh, a little bit like I I feel like for me, the beginning of learning a language is a bit like Bambi learning how to walk. So, um, I just kind of try and struggle through and then fall over and struggle through and then fall over and struggle through and then fall over.

Um, and then I still fall over now. You know, Italian, I'm C2, I still make basic mistakes every now and then where someone will just look at me and raise an eyebrow and I'm like, uh,

Like, you you there's I don't know what the latest count is, but I believe there's was it 200,000 words in English or something like that is an estimate. And and an active vocabulary of anyone is, you know, maybe 20 to 30,000.

So, even if you that's not a great metric though, but, you know, just as an example, you you never know everything, even if you're native language. So, don't expect to know everything in any language you're learning. I think that's a good lesson to do.

And people sometimes when you're learning a language, you don't realize that it's really useful just to learn to, um, to transfer that skill. Try and guess a little bit from the context. If you can just guess the main meaning.

And then only look up a word if if it's familiar, you know, if you feel like, oh, I've seen that a few times. Um, I think that's probably going to be useful. Because if you look up every word, you might even be looking up words that native speakers don't know. Or you know.

So, it's better just to read as much as I can. And if there's something, you know, sometimes it's like, okay, I've seen this word 25 times now. I should probably just look it up, just for the future of the story, because it's probably going to come back. You know, like, wizard or witch, you know, it's probably useful to to understand in in this context.

Yeah. But anyway, I I really enjoyed the, uh, the topic today. We've ended on, like, we were talking about before the recording, like, what what I wonder what we're going to talk about. And I I think we can definitely say it's all about, uh, learner training today and improving the academic, well, not even academic, like, just the educational world.

Um, but, uh, but thank you so much for for coming on to the show and and taking the time today to talk about languages. And, uh, before we Before we end, uh, do you want to just give the listeners a little, uh, what's coming up for you in the future on your site or any projects we should know about and where people can find find you?

Uh, so, that's probably the main thing for for people if you're learning any language. And we are also doing we're we're currently arranging some immersion holidays, which I I wanted to my idea for this came from I wanted to try and create for people the same kind of experience that I had with with Italian. So, going back to the beginning when I had that teacher who encouraged us to to speak a lot and English was banned. So, we there was just a nice atmosphere and a nice way to practice the language.

So, we're doing we're doing this on our immersion holidays. So, it's a whole week of speaking the language with with patient teachers who will help you. Uh, so, after a week, obviously, you'll improve quite quickly.

And we're we're doing that for Italian, Spanish and also hopefully French this year as well. So, if you, um, just sign up to the mailing list on on the website, there's a little bar on the on the right side. Or also if you sign up for the five day course as well, when we get more places, um, we we've sold out the first two, but we're looking at doing some more. So, um, we'll let you know as soon as we have more spaces available.

But, uh, but, uh, yeah, thank you so much, Katie. I know we've run a little bit over today. I appreciate you've taken the extra time to get everything sorted, even the technical problems.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the actual fluency podcast. I really appreciate having you here today.

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