Sadelle Wiltshire - Learning at Different Ages and Minority Languages

Um, but anyway, uh, this conversation took place a while ago, so I did, uh, I I will magically change my appearance and background where we get started, but I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you have any guest suggestions or you'd like to be on the podcast, if you have an interesting language learning story or maybe you have achieved something interesting with languages, then send me a message, kris@actualfluency.com, and I would be happy to have you on.

But for now, enjoy this episode with Sadelle, and I will see you in the next one. And we'll get the episode started with me asking Sadelle to give a little introduction of herself and her experiences learning languages. Enjoy.

Um, but I went from Spanish in junior high school to Spanish in high school, and then, um, found myself, um, kind of just maxing out on the Spanish classes and taking honors classes, and it was like almost too easy. It was a little weird, but I ne we never really got a chance to speak. And then when I went into college, um, I spent I wasted a year of college in architecture school, another story, but when I went when I quit architecture school and I went back into liberal arts, the first thing I did was running was run back to languages, and I went back to Spanish. And I had maxed out their basic levels of Spanish classes also. I kind of tested out of them. So they stuck me in graduate level literature classes, which, um, was actually great because that's where I started with I got a lot of, I guess, Colombian Spanish and Mexican Spanish in my head. Um, from my profs, um, and we and everything was in Spanish. And then I got bored. And I decided to say, okay, well, let me try something a little harder, and you know, I have Russian is kind of a heritage language for me. So I started studying Russian and fell in love with it, and it became my major.

And then I spent a semest I spent a summer in, um, a place that's no longer in existence, but it was a rival of Middlebury College's summer programs, caught at Norwich University called the Russian School. Seven weeks, absolutely no English, um, it, um, with the goal to help me get into grad school and pass the MLA exams at the time. Um, and I did. And then, um, um, and then my life changed because I met somebody. And I ended up going to the grad school he was going to. Um, so and not going down to DC. I wanted to go to a translation program. So anyway, uh, got a chance to spend three months in the Soviet Union. Um, which, which is now we're going back a number of years, so I'm dating myself. Um, and, uh, let me see. Yeah, so living in an I did have some experience living in a country. You know, I mean, I already had some of the language. I was already conversational, but it just that just upped it up a huge notch for me.

So, at at one point in my life, I was pretty fluent in Russian. Um, and then life changed again, and I when I moved up here to Vermont, there wasn't really met there weren't many opportunities to speak it. Uh, at the time, I had decided that I didn't want to go and into the government. There were a lot of jobs in the government. Especially like the CIA, the NSA, and there was no way I was interested in that sort of work. And, um, yeah, so I sort of let that it was kind of like this dream that just suddenly died because that's what they were looking for. That's what the jobs were at the time.

So, um, over the years, I've always been interested in folk music. And, um, so I've gotten exposed to a lot of French, uh, especially Quebecois French. Um, and, um, and I got a chance to hear some Irish and and, uh, Scots, uh, Scottish Gaelic as well, um, at these folk festivals. And and and so that's like a big love for me. And that's and then so fast forward years later, I mean, I did take a little bit of Quebecois French, but I I really can't speak it at all.

Um, and then four years ago, it was after I came back from Scotland of all places. I was really looking for a Scottish Gaelic class, but there weren't to be found around here, and then there was a local post, um, a local flyer at, uh, one of the food shops in town that somebody was teaching Irish. And I had always, you know, I'd always gotten frustrated with Irish. It's one of those languages that you look at it and you're like, that just makes absolutely no sense. It's got Latin letters, but you just cannot make out how to pronounce things if, you know, you're like a Spanish or an, you know, English, you know, Latin, or German, or English speaker, it just it makes no sense. And so, um, I had gone to these singing workshops where we they give us the lyrics in Irish, and, you know, my eyes would just glaze over.

So this was a great and that so that was my initial like inroad to Irish, but what I learned was that, man, these people love to laugh and have fun. And and we had a and we have a great teacher. I still take classes with him once a week, and he gets us laughing like nobody else can. And and he got us speaking really early, um, which was, you know, and part of it is an and this is like, I guess, part of the tradition in Ireland is is there's a long, long tradition of storytelling where you have these itinerant storytellers that go from place to place and and would tell stories. So he got us sitting around, you know, the kitchen table with some food and just, you know, you know, "Cén chaoi a bhfuil?" "Cén chaoi a bhfuil" is how you say, "What's the," you know, literally like, "What's the story?" Or, you know, "What's your story?" But it's like, how, you know, "What's new?" So, um, and we were encouraged to do that, um, like right from the start, you know, even with like a couple of words.

So, it's it's been it's my first, it's my first minority language. Um, and I love learning it, and and learning it online has been amazing. Um, especially, actually, I think COVID has helped because there are so many programs that are available now online. Um, and there's been a lot of cultural things through Ireland that happen at certain times of the year that, um, I mean, that allow me to be in touch with people from Ireland as well.

Um, so, uh, let's see. I the other thing I guess I just want to say is community, but I can talk about that more. Community is really, really important. Um, and there's a big Irish community, um, here in the States.

Um, which is of course a great shame. So, it's it's nice to see that other communities can kind of stick with it and and and stay with that heritage, because I feel like a lot of the Danish people I talk to, you know, that the, let's say, cultural Danish, not their their who were from from Denmark, but, um, uh, they they would they consider it quite a a sad thing that their language was lost a few generations ago. So, that's what can happen, and quite fast too. So,

But you'll you'll find there are concentrations like for instance, Springfield, Vermont, there's a concentration of Irish, uh, the Irish diaspora, or diaspora. And, um, there's a community there's a community center and there's Elms College which actually they do have Irish classes at this college.

Um, they put on events there. So, there and and you'll and you'll also find especially like in Massachusetts, I've noticed, pockets where you'll have, um, Irish is one of those languages where you've got three major dialects. There's the Ulster in the North, there's Connacht, kind of mid Western coast, and then, um, Munster in the South, and there's a big pocket of Munster Irish emigrants from, um, that in the Springfield, Massachusetts area, which is closer to me. And, um, and then there's a there's a big pocket of of the Connacht speakers in Boston, and, uh, and that's the, uh, the dialect that I'm attempting to learn.

What would the main kind of differences, and did you find anything that was working, uh, not working at all, or something that was working really well, um, what would take us through that?

And then but the problem I think the thing with Irish and I love it. I love it, and I love challenges, so that's why I'm doing it too. But it's, um, I think you need to be one of those people that, you know, doesn't mind being challenged, um, with a language.

Um, and, uh, but the thing with with Irish is the the grammar can be daunting. So, I recommend, you know, I always recommend people start with a book that doesn't hammer you over the head with grammar, that just you get it sort of sideways. And then you'll get curious after a while and say, okay, tell me more about that. Because I can tell you right now, I am still do not have my I I can't, uh, my declensions and genitive, um, especially, um, with my nouns and adjectives down, because there's so many rule changes, and there's so many rule exceptions. I've never seen so many rule exceptions in my life.

Um, that but, you know, it's it's it's a fascinating language. It's a beautiful language. Um, and, uh, and I love that there are, you know, three different dialects to listen. You know, so it's different that way too. I don't remember like saying, oh, you know, you're learning Moscow dialect or St. Petersburg dialect or anything like that. Um, I do remember there was a difference with Spanish. Um, and it wasn't huge though. It was just it was more of, you know, a little bit of pronunciation, and I found that I personally preferred Latin American Spanish, so I kind of stuck to that. Um, but that's also, you know, what my profs had. So,

So, but that goes for a lot of languages. I mean, Russian's a it's also a lot of grammar to know, but, um, German as well, a little bit less important in German, I guess, but, um, it's it's it's depends on what you want to do. I I know a lot of university programs, they focus a lot on the on reading and, uh, kind of translating. Whereas the most, I would say, not hobby learners or, you know, people learning by themselves, probably would prioritize speaking and listening.

Yeah. Um, and that doesn't require perfect grammar in any way. So, so if anyone listening is worried about that, then definitely don't don't don't freak out about that, because that will come and you'll see the patterns and and and get there. Um, I guess also your Irish is more So, go ahead.

Um, I mean, I can turn on the tele I can turn on there's a there's a website you can go to called tg4 dot ie, and that is Irish that's the Irish language television station. And I just and I just mirror cast that to my big TV, and I get to watch Irish television programs. And it's pretty darn awesome. I can't ever imagine doing anything like that before. So many there's so many resources now available. Actually, I just finished taking a six week, um, Irish cooking class.

You know, we talk sometimes about the Polyglot Conference, the Polyglot Gathering, these two main in-person conferences that take place every year. And a lot of people were quite, you know, upset about them not happening because of the pandemic. But actually, there's even more people who are very happy they're online, because now they can actually attend. Whereas

And when I take classes online, I'm going to say night 70% of them are in that age range.

That said, there's a good percentage, and I'm one of them, of folks that came to it through culture and music and art. So, yeah.

What other what other benefits, uh, or personal enjoyment have you gotten from learning languages, not just Irish maybe, but maybe you have some examples from from your Spanish or your Russian of experiences or maybe even opportunities that wouldn't have existed if you hadn't learned those languages.

Um, so, um, I I got to socialize quite a bit. And, um, before in the language, which I think is really important to be able to socialize, um, um, and and so then to take that and then transplant ourselves over in in Moscow. It was we, I mean, yeah, there were times that when we were with some Americans, we'd slip back into English, but a lot of times, um, we didn't.

Um, uh, a lot of times, you know, we we we tried really hard to stick with Russian. And and and it was easier coming at it from, you know, going over there with an intermediate level of the language. And I I kind of feel like that if I were to go back if I were to go over to Ireland now and spend my time in what they call the Gaeltachts, which are really small pockets of Ireland where it's spoken every day. Um, I think I would have a much easier time.

Um, so, you know, I think people at any level could do that. Um, I from what I've heard that people will sometimes go to the Gaeltachts with just a tiny, tiny bit or the cúpla focal as they say, which is like a couple of words. And, you know, they might get a hello back or something, you know, a simple greeting with then people will automatically start speaking, um, English, because it's just easier. And I suspect that's I mean, it's kind of like going to, you know, I I suppose Denmark or or or the Netherlands, you know, even, you know, and trying to speak a couple of those words and then people say, oh, but you're you know, we know plenty of English. It'll be easier for us to talk in English.

That yeah, I could see that being really powerful, and and obviously you're part of a community there too, because there's other students in the class. And and and having a connection with other people is is so important, isn't it? And it's so powerful for something I can imagine for something like Irish where you have the the the rich culture. And and, you know, how nice is it to learn how to cook some Irish dishes in Irish. That's that's really a really great one. And what other ways do you have you found community to be valuable to your learning?

So, I would go to some of these festivals, and there was a festival in it was about an hour and a half north of Montreal that, uh, where most people just spoke French. And, um, I volunteered one year, and and and an American who had volunteered the year before came to me, said, well, here's the tip about volunteering, because you get to camp there if you volunteer. She said, you know, if you if you sign up for the garbage crew, or the rubbish crew, to clean up the grounds, you usually don't have to interact with people and then you don't have to speak the language.

Um, so, well, I signed up and all of those spots were gone, and they stuck me in the food crew. And so, all of a sudden, I found myself in this position where I had to listen to people give me instructions in French about cooking and taking, you know, pots of food over to feed the performers without any French at the time. So, you know, after that experience, I thought, okay, let me just get a little bit of French, because I had lots of music words in my head. Because I could go to a workshop in music and understand what they were talking about, but it didn't have the grammatical glue to put the words together.

Even if you speak with like a kind of, uh, clumsy and let's say underdeveloped language skill, maybe you make like 10 grammar mistakes per sentence. I've always found that people really appreciate the effort, and, you know, if you think about it, if you made that clerk or that waiter or somebody's day 10% better just because you tried to say a few words in French or whatever language it is. I mean, I don't know any other hobbies that give you that instant kind of benefit, you know, because you could just learn how to say, how are you, right?

And, and I did most of it alone. And when I was in Spain, I found myself one day on the train and one of the ticket collectors started kind of making moves on me. He was young. I was, you know, 21. It was, you know, it was like basically making moves on me and making me very, very uncomfortable. But my level of Spanish was enough that I was able to turn around and say to him, look, buddy, if you don't leave me alone now, I'm going to tell my boyfriend who's waiting at the next station, and he's going to beat the hell out of you.

And obviously now we have like the, uh, everything in our pocket and Google Translate, so it's harder, but it it takes away the magic a little bit of that old exploration and you know.

Uh, because I I feel like if you watch movies, yeah, I've watched a lot of movies from like the 90s or the 2000s. It feels like every American at some point was like, yes, I have to go to Europe. Go to Europe. You know, it's kind of non-descript, but but I I just today, is that still is that still a thing, or is that kind of changed a little bit because we're so interconnected?

Um, I know that, well, I'd heard from a number of people while I was still in university that, you know, this is the time to go. Before you get stuck into a real job, um, and have to live like an adult. Um, it was, um, and so, I think and also because it was so it was so much cheaper to do it as a student because you get student rates on your Eurail Passes and, you know, student rates in the hostels, and and in the museums and all the all the places. So,

I had some friends though, um, and so I had places to land at various stages of my three-month journey. So I had friends in Finland and Sweden, and I had friends in Germany. Um, and so those were like my home bases, I guess, if you will.

But, um, yeah, the the last thing I just wanted to touch on, uh, before we finish was the kind of the the age of the language learner, you know. We hear a lot about, oh, if you don't learn a language by age five, you pretty much there's no way you can learn a language. You know, we have these naysayers and Right. Negative people, basically.

And then we have some people who, let's say, when you retire, they move to, uh, abroad, usually to the, you know, to the sun. It could be Spain, Mexico. I see a lot of people moving to Portugal as well, where I live. Uh, that's perhaps more the Brits, more than the Americans, but I still see a lot of Americans, uh, coming here as well.

Um, so those would be there would be people learning who are let's say, 55 plus, 60 plus. I've heard emails from people who are 80 plus and learning Thai or other, you know, hot country languages, you know. Yeah. Um, so what's your thoughts on this like the age ageism almost in language learning, and and what does it give you in terms of benefits to pursue a language, uh, at your age?

Um, so, I don't, you know, if you don't mind, I mean, I took I've gotten that through some of my local interactions, because I have an Irish learners community around me here. But I also got it tenfold when I did the, um, I did Benny Lewis's, uh, Fluency in Three Months challenge in February.

Um, which was a great thing to do during the pandemic, but even now not in the pandemic, because there are a lot of people in that program that are in exactly that position. You know, not all the it's a lot of young learners too. But, you know, of the of the older folks, a lot of them are going to those countries like Portugal and Spain and, you know, Latin American, whatnot. And, so, you know, it's been great to have that community and see that, okay, I'm not the only one doing this. I have some structure around me and I have people cheering me on and people I can check in with.

Um, and so, I mean, and there are lots of other places you can get that. You can find that through Meetup groups. There's a number of Facebook groups you can find for your language communities. So, but I think especially for people 60 and over who are constantly getting them, you know, well, they've had years and years of having to get things perfect. So, letting that's the other thing is is is it's hard, I think, for a lot of folks that are older to let go of that of that being perfect, because they had to do it all their work life. Um, and just let themselves make mistakes. But frankly, you're going to have the most fun and you're going to have the most laughter if you let yourself just make mistakes.

Um, but anyway, we have this long weekend. We have like a 12-hour day, and we're not allowed to speak English or any German or anything else, really. Sometimes we would anyway, but mostly it's all in Esperanto. So, after the first day, I'm just fried. I'm my brain is just like, what have you done to me. So, I wake up the next day, and we go, uh, for the first kind of meeting of the day. And on the way, I ask one of the one of the organizers, um, I think I said, uh, *Ĉu vi havas tempon por aĉeti kafeon?* And she just didn't skip a beat. By the way, what I said was, do we have time to buy a coffee? I thought. Because, you know, I was basically I needed caffeine to function. Right.

And she didn't skip a beat. I love her for this, uh, Yule is her name. And she just said, I don't remember the Esperanto. I'm not going to make it up now. But she basically said, I don't know if we have time to buy a whole cafe, but we could certainly find a place to buy a coffee. So, I had said *kafeon* instead of *kafo*, and I was asking if we had time to buy a cafe.

So, that was and, you know, big shout out to Unit for just, you know, just going straight with it, you know, instead of trying to correct it right away. Just, um, so, uh, that was a good wake up laugh there and but the the example, you know, that happens. Uh, but it some people might have said, oh, I'm I'm disappointed in myself that I made that mistake, or I wouldn't have said anything because I wasn't sure whether it was one or the other.

Um, and, um, yeah, I would just say, being, uh, not honest is the wrong word, but being true to your to your skill level and just throwing what you know out there, it really comes back like tenfold, honestly, it does.

But I I just come back from Scotland this one particular time, and I had this long tour, and I had all these things I'd done. So, before I showed up at that at the conversation circle, I wrote down, I was, I went to blank, I went to blank, I went to blank, I went to, you know, just repeating this over and over, you know, just a whole list of all the towns that I visited, you know.

And and it sounded like, uh, it sounded like, you know, baby Irish, but I was able to at least communicate and say, yeah, I went to Scotland, and I went to Edinburgh and Glasgow, and, you know. And and at least I felt somewhat functional, even at, you know, at this low level, and, you know, and I mean, I now I look back, and I'm like, you kind of wish I could have patted that, you know, baby Irish Sadelle on the back and said, good job that day.

But people were great, you know, and understanding. And and I think, you know, I think for people, especially that are older, you know, that get the other thing I would just say is yeah, you know, find some place, find a group of people you can be accountable with. Find other people also your age that are doing this, you know, as well. I mean, just just again, for kind of group moral support.

There are lots of opportunities to meet with people online, especially these days. It's, um, so it's not hard to find. I mean, if I can find it in Irish, people can certainly find it in those countries.

And I think that's one of the saddest things actually, if you look at neighborhoods and and, uh, places in these countries where it's just a lot of tourists or a lot of people expats from those countries. And they've lived there 20 years, and they can barely order a coffee in the language. And that that to me is is just sad. And it's not because I'm judging people, but the effort required to learn that is like nothing. You know, it wouldn't take much, but they've made a conscious decision, or maybe an unconscious decision that it's not worth it to spend that little energy on on learning some of of the language.

Um, but hopefully that's what a podcast like this can can help with, you know. That's that's the the ambition anyway, that we we share the benefits, we share how easy it is, you know, even though it is not it's not always easy. Yeah. Um, and we share basically some practical tips and and strategies like you were saying about the the Fluency in Three Months challenge, which is basically an accountability challenge with other people. There's the, you know, cooking classes and local, uh, schools and the intensive classes you mentioned.

So, so that's the goal. That's exactly, yeah. those are some I would I would love to do as well in the future. They they're not as popular around here, I know. I the only one I've heard of is Middlebury. Um, I haven't seen any any sort of pop up around here in Europe, but, um,

So, I know there's something No, I I know in the stateside there's an organization called Alliance Française. That sponsors some things. Um, I don't know what there is in Europe. That is a really good question. I I should ask. I haven't seen it. Of course, there's lots of evening classes, there's lots of, you know, courses and and things like that, lots of teachers and tutors and university degrees and everything. But I haven't seen those kinds of immersion but maybe, you know, somebody listening who's from Europe, some entrepreneurial, uh, mind out there could get started on that.

But anyway, uh, that was what I wanted to talk about. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast and and sharing your story and experiences and and tips with the listeners and, you know, just for anyone, uh, listening out there. If you have an interesting language learning story or tips or tricks, or anything you want to come and share, you know, send me an email and we can get the ball rolling. The more, the more the merrier, you know, on the podcast. And the more diverse experiences, the better I think it is for for people listening.

So, so thank you, thank you for that.