Marek Kohn: The benefits of multiple languages in society

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Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Actual Fluency Podcast. This is episode 147. And today I'm joined by Marek Khan, who's on to talk about his new book, Four Words For Friend, why using more than one language matters now more than ever. We also talk about how the ideas in the book relate to society today using examples mostly from the UK because all this Brexit is going on right now, so it's a great time to talk about. We talk about the role of languages in schools and basically integration, assimilation, and the nationalism, and all these kind of heavy topics that society has to deal with in an ever-developing world, an ever-globalizing world really.

And there was also, recently, it came out in the news here in the UK where I live that school children are worse and worse in foreign languages. They most of them don't even pick a foreign language if they have the choice. And when they do actually go to their language classes, they don't have much success. And so they're encouraged by teachers and the system to pick topics they would have more success in where they can score those high grades that would get them into their studies. And unfortunately, this is a very sad development, and it's something that we talk about in this episode, but it's also something that I really want to do more about. So I'm trying to figure out ways we can really spread the interest of language learning, especially in the UK, but I think there's places in America that probably have similar problems. There's probably places around the world that have similar challenges ahead of them when it comes to foreign languages, foreign cultures, immigration, assimilation, and just overall improving society. And I think it all starts with a bit of understanding. So I hope you enjoy today's episode. It's a little bit special. Do check out the book, Four Words For Friend, and let's get to it.

All right, Mark, welcome back to the show. Um, do you want to just give the listeners a quick introduction to who you are, where you're from, and how you came up with the idea for your book?

And the subject of language came very, very readily to me at that point because we are not speaking my first language. My first language was Polish. It's the home language, the family language, when I was when I was very small. Uh, I couldn't hold a conversation of any great quality in in in that language now, because I've I've lost it. And the the deterio the the the experience of losing a language that one never quite finished learning, um, being able to do a lot with it, but not not as much as as as as one would want, and having this nagging feeling that it was there, and I needed to to to engage with it. This had been growing in in me for a number of years before that.

And I thought, "These two preoccupations sit together rather well, because if we can get two languages to work together in in in one mind, and if we can get different languages working together within a community or within a society, well, this could be quite a powerful way, quite a significant way of offsetting this rising mood of suspicion and antagonism and hostility and anger."

What is what do you think what do you think that kind of unruliness comes from? Is it like a fear of the unknown, or is it like I mean, we probably have to use the UK as a kind of an anchor and example, but you know, Brexit is a symptom, I suppose, of of of a is it a lack of understanding of other cultures, or is it a is it a reaction to the things that the economy going down, or what what would you say is the big kind of the defining factor of this kind of unruliness that started a couple of years back?

And looking at language, that's, um, uh, that that's perhaps quite revealing because, uh, I came to the conclusion fairly early on that you can't begin to address that the challenges of of using more than one language unless you face up to the fact that language has two faces. Fundamentally, it has two purposes, each probably as important as the other. One is to enable communication, the other is to prevent it.

So to give you a little example, somebody's on a bus, it could be in the UK, but it could be in all sorts of countries, and this these sorts of encounters have been recorded in in different continents. It's not just about about about Britain, though we have had a bit of a rush in them. And somebody's chatting on the phone in a foreign language. Maybe they're chatting to to their mother who's in a different country, this is one particular example, a local example that somebody told us about. And somebody goes, "We speak English," or whatever the language is, "in this country." And that's that's that that sort of response is, "Well, I mean, you can come back and say, 'Well, uh, yeah, we also mind our own business in this country,' but that's not really an adequate response." Because what that what the objector is saying is, "When you're in this country, when you're in public, you have to con you have to conform to certain norms, and you even though you might be foreign, or you might have some ability to engage with a foreign language or a foreign culture, you have to behave as if you're a native. You have to speak speak the native language, the dominant language, and only that language."

So, um, the question of of suspicion, the the the the hostility that this arouses, if you look at the, um, probably tells us quite a bit about people's intuitions about the about the two faces of language. So, um, in some cases, people react very badly when they, when they hear a foreign language being spoken, and they go, "Stop talking about me in your in your lingo," as one woman said. "Stop talking about me in that language." "Really? How do you know I'm talking about you?" Actually, in one particular case, they probably were, because, uh, yeah, the the woman in question had decided take taking it upon herself to give a bit of a lecture in in an underground train carriage in London about her view of immigration and the harm it was doing the country. So when the guys talking in a foreign language, you know, maybe they were. But you know, people tend to think it's all about them. And I mean, it may be, or it may not be, but actually, in a profound sense, it is about them. It's about who they think they are, and their relationship to the place and the space around them. This particular woman goes, "Don't talk, speak English when you're on my train." And that's very revealing. She thought it she viewed it as her train. As a British person, it belonged to her. It was part of her her her her space, her territory, her property. So, this insistence on behaving in, um, conforming to to to the norms of the dominant community, I think tells us a lot about about the where that kind of anger comes from and and how and how people perceive it. So it's not just, that's bad manners, um, it can be. It's also, "You're talking about me. You must be up to something. You must be trying to exploit me." And all these suspicions, uh, well, you know, one way to address them, actually, is to engage, to to to to, uh, to put yourself in a position where you could maybe actually understand what the other person is is is talking about by learning a bit of another language. Just Yeah, that would be a great advert for for learning another language, finally understand what people are saying around you.

Yeah. But London, it's tricky, because you'd probably like on any bus, there's like, you know, 50 different possibilities. Yeah, that is tricky. But then again, because of that, I find, or well, I mean, this is what I hear, I obviously only have anecdotal evidence, but because London is so multicultural, I I I suppose there would be less of this feeling of ownership over, let's say, public transport languages, or you know, a bit less because you just get used to it. You know, if you have the same commute and you hear five languages every day, after a few months, you're like, well, okay, this is how it works. But if you live in, I don't know, in in in the Midwest somewhere where it's, you know, just farms and stuff, and you never hear any other language than English, then when you finally do, it's it's kind of a shock as well, because you're not used to it.

Right. But I suppose also that that could even be like a there's a misrepresentation there as well. If if if English people or British people have a certain cultural upbringing, maybe they're more reserved, or maybe more keep to themselves. I don't know, maybe less likely to speak on the bus to begin with. Not that that's a point, but um, I I think these stories that that you've you you have a few of them in the book about kind of these encounters and you know, it it really is shocking. I feel like if if you're living in a country and you're working there and you you kind of fully integrated. Some people have lived there, you know, for for 40 years or more, and then somebody says, "In this country, we speak English." I mean, it's just hard it's just heart-dropping, isn't it? To to hear that kind of kind of language being being spoken just because that person was using their their heritage language or their first language to talk to someone else in it.

And also, I I I I should say that I think for a lot of, um, what's the word? I was going to say indigenous for a moment, but for a lot of people who are who are British and don't have a an immediately diverse background, um, they also, I think, feel very many of them also have felt very distressed and disturbed by by these kinds of incidents because they think, "Well, this is not who we are." One of the then this is something that you do here in this in this country in Britain an awful lot nowadays from people who are dismayed about the the turn of events. I mean, dismayed from the point of view that they want to remain in the European Union, and and disturbed by the nationalism and nativism that that's been that that's emerged on the other side of the argument. Um, there's a feeling we've gone back, you know, that that that we've thought that we'd made permanent irreversible progress towards inclusion and openness in in this country. And actually, it turns out that we took an awful lot for granted that we shouldn't have done.

I would imagine that if you had like, let's let's let's say we had like a tribe, we'd never met anyone from outside before, and suddenly someone comes who maybe has a different name, or a different language or something, you know, you can understand going back to ages ago, how that could be, you could be suspicious over that. But once you've met, you know, thousands and thousands over a long period of time and found out, well, these people are not actually as bad as as as they've were originally made out to be. Um, yet, it seems like the problems are getting worse. So is that representation? Is it just because we're hearing more about them, or is it because all these changes, all these what's happening, is bringing out that core overly nationalistic, uh, people or sub group of the population?

Now, for a couple of years, everything was pretty great, um, or certainly compared to to previous waves of immigration. It was it was absolutely extraordinary. Eastern Europeans, Poland in particular, enjoyed a very good reputation among the middle classes, among as hard workers. Um, their workmates and, should we say, competitors for work did generally acknowledged that they they their work ethic, at least. And then then came the the financial crisis, then came 2008, and this was a global phenomenon, and personally, I think that what we're experiencing now, what we're seeing now around the world, the the retreat from from from outside from the outsider from the perception of other people as threats, as competitors, as rivals, this must surely be rooted in in the financial crisis and the way that we that the world hasn't really ever quite got over it. People a lot of ordinary people's incomes have remained flat or even got worse, and so on.

Now, the other the other point is is is you've you've suggested that it's to do with that familiarity will make people feel more comfortable with, um, with people who are different, because they don't seem so different. Um, and there's a huge debate amongst sociologists about whether it works that way, or whether whether it goes the other way. But leaving leaving the experts, um, assessments aside, and I think what we can say is is that, um, um, certainly English nationalism in particular has has has taken shape, has hardened over the past decade or so. Um, and other nationalisms in other countries clearly have have have hardened in in similar sorts of ways.

And whatever people might feel about individual foreigners, if they want to consider them foreigners, um, uh, that's not the same as as wanting to share share space, share share a country with them. So it's perfectly possible for them to think, "Oh, you know, they're they're migrant workers, are a decent person, and, uh, you know, this particular one's all right." And also to think, "Well, actually, I'd really rather they went home. We went back to being a a country full of people who only speak one language."

So how much nationalism is too much? Because I I think there's a positivity, you know, protecting your ideas, and you know, being proud of your country and your language, and everything. But clearly, there's a there's a quite a line that you can step over. But because of the reason that I ask is not just because I think the answer is is somewhat obvious that once you start targeting people for not being under that umbrella, it starts to become really bad. But the reason I say it's because I also feel playing the devil's advocate a little bit that there's a counter-move as well that's also going overboard where, you know, people saying, you know, I I someone like Farage is I think is an idiot, basically. I mean, he's he's a wondering, um, hypocrite, basically, first of all. But some of the things you know, he he kind of gets treated like everything he says is racist, and everything is xenophobic, and everything is like super nationalistic. But actually, if you I think a lot of it, or at least half of it, you know, it's just normal, this is, you know, we we have to protect our country's interest first. Not necessarily for the groups for certain groups. But sometimes that gets interpreted as, well, he's he's trying to resurrect, you know, national socialism, and, uh, and start that kind of movement. So so how how much is is enough? And is it is it a positive thing nationalism, or is it is it always negative?

Um, I think with with nationalism, it's it's perhaps not so much the quantity of it as as the quality. Uh, we can distinguish between two different kinds of nationalism here. So on the one hand, there's ethnic nationalism, ethnonationalism, which is built around the idea that that the world can be parceled up, human kind can be parceled up into small discrete groups, uh, ethnic groups, uh, which we can call nations, and ideally, each nation should have its own state with a border around it. And actually, that border is often a language border, which is relevant to to the the the the problem I'm trying to address. The other kind of of of nationalism is sometimes known as civic nationalism, and that's the kind where you say, "Hmm, identity should be based on not on belonging to a particular ethnic group, but on one's relationship to a state as a citizen of that state." So a state can have people of all sorts of different ethnic origins, but they're all equal, and they're all united by the fact that they're that they're citizens. Um, I think you know which kind of nationalism I'm I'm I'm more comfortable with. Of course, yeah. So, um.

And I think the European or the Eurozone definitely has created a a much more global, well, a global, I guess that's a bit of a misrepresentation. It's not the whole the whole globe yet that's that's connected with no borders, but just having that area where people can move freely, and and that's really generating some exciting, uh, I would say, developments for for integration, assimilation. People get more opportunity, and the languages that we hear, like going back to London, you know, that's a big part of it, obviously, that people could now suddenly move freely, work in another Euro country, and, uh, and go there.

But going back to the language just for a second, I'm I'm sad by kind of the way minority languages or heritage languages get kind of no priority whatsoever. Like, you can even talk in the UK about, you know, actual, you know, geographical minority languages like Welsh and and the Scottish languages and, and, um, all these kind of minority languages that are being squeezed and kind of encouraged to use English. But but also, in the in the term of this discussion, the it seems like to me that the new generations, say the second generation, um, immigrants, or you know, the the kids that that are starting school now, they use the heritage language less and less. So it wouldn't take many generations for it to be just a historical thing almost. I would really love to see more focus on that, like on the school curriculum, like a, my suggestion last time was like a a language taster class, maybe in the first year of, uh, you know, uh, I don't know what you call it over here, the normal school. You know, when they're like 6 to 6 to 16, uh, you know, have that taster just to see, first of all, there are actually other languages in this country. You know, some people might never hear, like we say, in London you will, of course, but if you are other places, you might not hear those different languages. But what do you see as some positive changes we can do? Maybe start with languages, uh, or language, and then just in general, like what can we do to, what what can each citizen do to, uh, well, I guess I'm not a citizen, but each resident, anyway, uh, do to improve the situation?

So, um, what do we do about that? Well, um, firstly, uh, I think we have to do everything that we can to encourage, um, children to feel that these languages are valuable, and something to be proud of rather than to be ashamed of. Something to acknowledge rather than to to to hide. They they absolutely should not feel that they they have to conceal their language or or refrain from speaking it. Um, it's also important, I think, for educators to and and well, parents and and educators to feel comfortable about non-dominant languages. In other words, if you if you're in Britain, and at home, um, a different language is spoken to English, um, that that should actually be regarded as an asset. Actually, a way of of helping kids learn rather than an obstacle. Because the one thing you do not have to worry about is that, uh, a child entering mainstream society, entering a school system, where there is a a big dominant language like English. They are going to get the English. Oh, yeah. They happen. Don't worry about that. It may happen just slightly more slowly than you'd like, but it really doesn't. So, it's really not what you have to worry about. Um, it would be great if people just felt, oh, we're we're really this our child is in in danger of losing such a such a great asset that that this other language. Because and it's an asset not only in itself, but it gives insight. Yeah. It gives it gives insights into how language works, how people think, how not just how other people think, but how you yourself think. It it helps you understand the world and to to understand your place in it, and to interact with other people. So that's really important.

Now, moving on through the system, um, uh, there's the question of formal formal education. And this this is actually quite difficult, um, because although there's loads and loads of languages spoken in a country like like, uh, the United Kingdom, um, the concentrations are, uh, are very uneven. And so you might it's often the case that you'll get, you know, a few children in the school who are able to to speak quite a lot of, uh, a given language, but there's nobody to teach them, and there are not enough of them to to make a class viable. And a few years ago, one of the we have, um, uh, state school exams or school exams administered by, um, a number of, uh, organizations, examining boards. And one of them said, "Oh, we can't support a lot of these languages any longer." We're going to drop languages like Polish from the from the, uh, the the the exams that we offer. Um, some of the other, uh, some of the other organizations have have taken these over, but it does illustrate, uh, the difficulty of of, um, of supporting these languages within institutions.

And that is actually really important because, um, uh, it's a common misapprehension that, uh, that this is that that these heritage languages and, um, kids who who speak other languages at home, they're good for the school, and, uh, and, um, and, uh, and it's good for them because they can just stroll into the exam on the day and get them and come out with an A grade. Oh, no, they don't. Um, it's uh, you know, one, um, friend of my sons who was who speaks Spanish at home was was, uh, quite put out to find himself with a a grade C or something like that. And and the point here is is that, um, although as a medium of communication, um, uh, it's not a problem. I mean, children could speak informally, they can, um, they can communicate with with their families and loved ones and friends and so on. But, uh, it's also very important to get, uh, um, get skills in using the standard forms of language. Just in exactly the same way that that, uh, that kids, um, learn English, uh, grammar formally in in school, um, even though they can speak it perfectly well already or perfectly well to communicate already, they don't speak it in in in in well enough in the standard form. So, uh, that's something else that would be really good to to support. Now, um, maybe that might involve, um, even, you know, foreign embassies or, um, philanthropic institutions for for for diasporas in in in in supporting education. I don't know, but what I do know is that losing those those those languages and not developing them, um, that's really wasting assets both for the individuals concerned and for the larger society.

But I would, I would say, I don't know if you saw it, it was in the news here in a couple of days ago, I think, that language classes are really not doing very well in the UK. There was something like they reported something like a 50% drop in interest, uh, um, I think in the UK, correct me if I'm wrong, you can kind of pick your classes once you get to a certain level, was it A-levels, or can you pick it GCS already, probably? GCS. Right. And that's pretty young, isn't it? When you start GCS?

And there are other problems. Um, the the the the BBC report that you're talking about, which, um, reported a decline in in, uh, in, uh, modern language teaching, uh, really just confirms a trend that's been apparent for for quite some time. And it also, I think, um, underlines some of the that the problems that the attitudes that that have brought about this situation. So, one thing is, I mean, um, uh, it's been reported that language teaching at the primary level in this country, in Britain, isn't that great. So, kids getting to to the stage in in in schooling where, um, it actually gets quite hard. But they haven't had an especially successful grounding in it. And so they find it even harder.

Right. But also, and this is, um, it's not peculiar to Britain, but, um, but it's it's, um, more marked in Britain. Um, it seems does seem that that British schoolchildren just don't like and don't feel as comfortable with languages as students in other European countries. I mean, possibly research for my book, I I went to Latvia, which has, uh, very remarkable, uh, set of preoccupations and arrangements, um, uh, governing the relationship of the Latvian language and the the that of the the Russian-speaking minority. And I went to a to a a school for Russian-speaking kids there, and, uh, just chatting and and the head head teacher was just genuinely surprised when I said that languages weren't terribly popular in in in British schools. And he I mean, it wasn't kind of like, "Oh, we know that about you," but it was kind of, "Really? Why would that Why on earth would that be?"

Well, why that would be, I guess is, um, there are a number of reasons. One is, kids don't see the need because everybody speaks English to the level that they feel they, um, is required for for for their lives. In other words, they'll they'll go abroad, and they can get by in in English as as as first. Um, another reason I think is is that it doesn't that English doesn't have, um, or foreign languages don't have the same positive warm associations that English has for for for children abroad. So, in other words, like, you know, if if you're living in many European countries, um, well, half the songs that that you, uh, that you're in your personal top 100, uh, are likely to be in English. You know, in in lose. Well, for example, here. So, so when you come to the English class, you've already got this this this this warm image of of of the language. And that really doesn't, uh, apply in in in in classrooms in the UK.

So, there are there are a number of of problems. Um, and unfortunately, and, uh, there are now other reasons to to for for people to to feel that languages aren't important to them. And this is one that rather sad thing was, uh, development was that, uh, one report, um, found that, uh, a number of parents were, uh, saying, "Well, why do our kids need to to learn foreign languages? We're leaving the leaving the EU." Um, Wow. Well, yeah, and the thing is that these, um, these tended to be, um, uh, parents in more deprived areas, the ones that, uh, where where there were quite high, um, relatively high votes to leave. Um, and, uh, yeah, sure. I mean, um, in practical terms, you know, possibly they you know, the the the the economic value of of speaking a foreign language, um, has reduced for those kids. Probably it wasn't actually that great great for a lot of them in the first place. What I think this is is is more an expression of attitudes towards language. You know, it's just saying, "Look, we've had enough. You know, we're heading we're heading off on our own. Don't, you know, don't bother us us with with with more foreign stuff."

So my question is, maybe it's a bit of a leading question, as per usual. Is it is the value of language classes is is the idea of getting a taster for the language, or an a kind of a introduction and and in introduction to another culture, a kind of a getting your feet wet, even if they don't produce any meaningful results for the average student, you know, to to actually use the language or even consume any kind of content in that language. Is that enough to to be useful? Or would it then be better to to kind of completely re re-think how we look at it, and then use I don't know, I'd like to see kind of like how I did it in in I know that's completely impossible because of the the logistics, but I had I was at an English program in Denmark. So I would have Danish and English classes. If I had moved to England, I would not be able to have Danish classes, probably. Probably not at all. So over time, let's say I started as a six-year-old or something. I would probably get worse and worse in Danish unless I had really good reasons to use it. But because I, when I grew up, I did it completely bilingually, they're both really strong, and I had both of them. Um, so that's a really long way of saying, if language classes don't yield results in the average school for the average student, do they still have value in this kind of, you know, cultural enrichment? And if so, what can we, what what should really be done to improve that? Because I don't think we should force students to learn a language just for the sake of, like, you know, the German and French. Like, yeah, I love those languages. They're great. I speak German myself. I think French sounds lovely, and I I did do a bit of it in school. But I can honestly understand if students are like, well, why should I learn this if they have absolutely no connection? Wouldn't it be much better to have, say, electives like Polish, Hungarian, Chinese, something exciting to get the students a little bit more into it?

So, um, firstly, as as I as I said, um, there's evidence from surveys to indicate that, um, British school students are less happy basically like languages that they're studying less than their counterparts in in in in other countries. And also, they they perform less well, they attain, um, um, they don't attain such high levels, and in particular, um, there are far fewer ending up being really good at the language that they're learning. So, you're you're getting a a higher, um, proportion of of students ending up with a kind of bog standard low level of of of attainment. And, uh, um, I have mixed feelings about this. Because one of my big messages is that a little of the language gets you a long way. And you should never feel intimidated or should try not to feel intimidated by the fact that you're not perfectly fluent in a language. You know, you should just go ahead and say not say, "How many mistakes am I making?" But, "What what can I actually do with this language?" And, uh, you know, and if you and if you ask that question, the answer will quite often will generally be, "Oh, rather a lot more than I thought I could." So, that's uh, so, um, I can see both sides of of of the question there.

Um, I think it's important for, um, for young people, uh, school children, students to learn languages. Um, I don't know whether it's a great idea to make, um, taking them to any particular level compulsory or not. Um, but I kind of feel they should. Um, I I think that, uh, it would be good to give, um, languages the same sort of prestige that what's now called STEM, science, technology, engineering, and maths, is given in the British educational system.

But, uh, I mean, I think this is, um, um, it could have been different. I I I I always I'm always a bit cautious about about, um, generalizing from what happens in the United States to to to the entire world because, uh, the United States has its own particular pattern of immigration, of community formation, of of of governance and so on. Um, and things can be done and are done differently in in different places. For instance, north of the border in Canada, of course, where you, um, you have bilingualism between French and English, and also, of course, um, indigenous languages plus loads and loads of of of languages brought brought by migrants. So, there can be different different ways of doing it. And by the way, um, to be fair and and in Latvia only they they, uh, it's a complicated situation there, but the outcome, I think, has been really rather good, because it's, um, because it's, uh, it's producing a bilingual, sustainably bilingual nation. And I think that that that or that's kind of not what they were setting out to do. Um, is is rather a happy outcome.