Àdhamh Ó Broin: The Languages of Scotland and Reclaiming Gaelic
Kris Broholm interviews Àdhamh Ó Broin about the languages of Scotland, providing a primer on their history and development. They discuss the role of minority languages like Scottish Gaelic, Àdhamh's personal journey of reclaiming his ancestral tongue, and cultural preservation in the face of globalization.
March 15, 2019 · 1 hr 16 min
EP 148: Àdhamh Ó Broin: The Languages of Scotland and Reclaiming Gaelic
0:00 / 1:16:04
Guest
Àdhamh Ó Broin
What You'll Hear
- 1 Scotland's Rich Linguistic History Revealed
- 2 Forces Eroding Scottish Languages Today
- 3 Reclaiming My Gaelic Ancestral Language
- 4 "False Gael" Accusations: Community Backlash
- 5 Why "Zombie Gaelic" Fails True Revival
- 6 Preserving Culture: Beyond Classroom Language Learning
- 7 Gaelic's Future: Coexisting, Not Competing
- 8 Host Kris Broholm's Farewell Remarks
Links Mentioned
Questions Covered in the Show
What are the native languages of Scotland?- 6m
Why are Scottish Gaelic and Scots declining in popularity?- 16m
What motivated Agerb O'Braon to learn Scottish Gaelic?- 26m
What resources are available for learning Scottish Gaelic?- 41m
Are schools effective in reviving minority languages like Scottish Gaelic?- 49m
How can Scottish Gaelic thrive alongside English in a globalized world?- 1h 1m
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Hello everyone and welcome to episode 148 of the Actual Fluency podcast. Today, I've got a really special episode lined up for you. And I'm joined by Agerb O'Braon from Scotland to talk about the languages of Scotland and the development of those languages over the last, uh, well, many hundred years. We go, we go quite far back to get a little basic primer in the languages of Scotland. And some of you out there might be thinking, what does he mean languages of Scotland? Don't they all speak English there? Uh, but no, they don't. I'm sure a lot of you guys knew that. But, um, there are actually a couple of languages that are spoken in Scotland.
And, uh, in this episode we get some more information about what's happening with the revival of, or sort of revival is perhaps not the right term as we get into in the episode, but definitely the role of a minority language in society. And, um, Argav really shares his own personal story how his, uh, his grandmother put him to the task of get reclaim your language. Uh, it's a very interesting story and, you know, I was really hooked from the first second I heard him speak about it in Edinburgh when I was at the, um, language festival. Well, it was called, um, Lingo Fringe was the original name, but that event was cancelled, so we had a little informal meeting in a pub and that's where I first heard the story that you're about to hear today.
And, uh, I really hope you enjoy it. It's quite different. We don't talk so much about learning languages. He does share a few ideas of, um, of how he started learning Scottish Gaelic, his, uh, sort of ancestral language. But, um, but it's not as much of a a language learning episode as it's more about minority languages and kind of the, the role of how you preserve it or maybe more, uh, promote it in a way that the culture lives on and it's not just some kind of empty shell, which we get in to during the episode. Also about globalization and kind of the role of English and the dual identity that many people feel like in these countries.
So, I hope you enjoyed this unusual episode and, uh, let's get to it. Welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you. And maybe for the listeners who don't know, we recently met at a little mini conference in Edinburgh. It was supposed to be a little bit a bigger conference, a new, uh, Polyglot Conference or language interested conference, uh, which was unfortunately cancelled last minute, but the good thing that came out of that was that we all got to hang out in a little pub for a couple of hours in rainy Edinburgh. It was a pleasure. Yeah, yeah, it was a great, it was a great fun and we, the, you can call it the, you can say many things about that gathering, but it was certainly a diverse set of languages that was talked about.
Um, but your presentation definitely caught my eye a lot because the Scottish languages are just not something you hear a lot about, you know, there's such a big Yes. English influence and and I I think many people listen to this don't even know that there are other languages in Scotland. Uh, so maybe if you want to give the audience just a a quick introduction to yourself and and maybe the, the, just a little primer on the Scottish languages so we all on on the same page with it.
I, sure. Um, 's mise Agerb O'Braon. Uh, so I just said, uh, my name is Agerb O'Braon. Uh, in English that's Adam Burn or O'Burn. Um, I grew up in Argyle, uh, and my father's people were from Ireland. My mother's people were from Caithness in the North East, far North East of Highland Scotland.
Um, in terms of Scottish languages, um, originally we had, uh, a language called Pictish. Unfortunately we don't know anything about that now. Old Welsh was also spoken, uh, in the South of Scotland. Um, we also had the Viking language, Norn, uh, which was spoken, uh, in the Western Isles, Orkney, and Shetland, and and the far North East of the area Caithness, I was, I was talking about where my mother's people were from. Um, and you have the Gaelic language which is spoken from Ireland in a, in a dialect continuum right across, uh, into the, the Western, uh, half of Scotland and right up to the, to the very, uh, North. Um, and also a, a dialect of Gaelic, uh, spoken in the very far South West of the country, called Galwegian.
So in terms of when these languages were extant, how they fit into each other, you know, which ones came and and went at different times. Pictish was, was, was furthest back. We're not exactly sure what it's, what it sounded like, um, or or or how it was structured, but it's most likely, uh, a Celtic language of some kind. Um, it was subsumed by Gaelic, um, uh, when the Gaels kind of took over the Kingdom of Scotland as a whole. So this would be around about 8, 900. Uh, C. Uh, by this point, uh, Norn had come into the country with the Vikings right down the, the, the West Coast to an extent, but especially in Shetland and Orkney. Um, and also, uh, Old English had, um, come across what we now recognize as the Scottish border. Um, and had taken, uh, got a foothold in the South East of the country.
Um, and while called English for, for, for centuries, eventually became regarded as Scots. So, uh, what is actually still spoken in the Lowland Scotland today is as close as you can hear to Old English anywhere in the world now. But it has a very, very strong Scottish accent, a bit like mine, but, but much stronger. Um, Gaelic language, uh, was the, uh, language of prestige in Scotland right up until the end of the 11th century and it may even have been spoken as far South as Newcastle in England.
Um, uh, but with, uh, the, the Anglo-Norman plantation of Scotland, David I invited Anglo-Normans into Scotland and they established the burrows in Scotland, the towns. And then through that, uh, the, the, the Scots language or the Old English language was planted in in these towns. And, uh, eventually the last Scottish king to be able to speak English was James IV. Um, so by 1500, the Scottish court had completely and utterly switched, uh, to, to Old English, which was then called Scots. But Gaelic had been previously called Scots because it was the language of Scotland. Um, so that name was kind of usurped by Old English in Scotland and that became regarded as Scots, whereas Gaelic, um, came to be regarded as, as, as, um, more Irish and something kind of foreign.
So Scotland was originally a Gaelic, uh, nation in terms, when I say originally, um, from the time that we can regard it as a nation, um, during the time of of King Kenneth MacAlpin. Um, so we're back, you know, the kind of 800-ish. Um, and, uh, over the course of the early to to middle medieval period, there was a language shift where Scotland, uh, uh, uh, the Southern and and Eastern half of Scotland shifted to being Scots speaking, which was, as I say, the, uh, but, but, but, which is now the closest thing we can get to Old English. And for, for many, you know, hundreds of years, in fact, there was a kind of a, a, a, a natural schizophrenia, and I appreciate that's a, um, a, a kind of fraught word to use, but it is the, the easiest word to use for our linguistic situation. There was a sort of, uh, bilingual schizophrenia where Scotland existed with kind of half the population speaking Gaelic and half the population speaking Scots or or Old English.
Um, when the union of the, uh, Crowns came in, Gaelic fell further back and there were measures put in place to destroy it and that's been going on ever since. Uh, and then after the union of the parliaments in 1707, um, the, the Old English speaking population, the Scots speaking population, which by that point were speaking something that was very, very strongly influenced by Gaelic, by Danish, by Norse. Um, the, the, the, that language started to become Anglicized and and until anyone who was anyone was speaking English and Gaelic was left as essentially a foreign language spoken by the savages in the North and Western reaches of the country. And we get to today where there are about 57,000 Gaelic speakers and perhaps about half a million actual fluent Scots speakers in Scotland now. And most of the country now speaks English the way that I am at the moment with a Scottish accent. So that is probably about as, um, as, as, as swift a a precis as I can do without you, you ended up here all night, you know.
Yeah, that's fantastic. No, that's that's great. I, I'm sure a lot of people, uh, myself included, were had, there was some revelations in there that I didn't, I didn't know, uh, especially that that that they were both called Scots, you know, it must have been confusing as well.
Well, it was a kind of the the name Scots was passed a bit like a baton around about 1500 and, and, and, and unfortunately for us, Gaels was transferred over to Scots.
Um, but just to, just to let you know as well, Norn died out by altogether died out by, by the middle 19th century in Shetland. Old Welsh had died out by probably the 14th century at the latest. Uh, Pictish was, was probably gone by around about 1100, 1200, at the very latest again. So today we now, we we only have, um, Gaelic in the Western Isles mostly and some small pockets elsewhere. Scots in the rural areas of the Scottish Lowlands, um, and some urban dialects as well, Dundonian, the, the urban Scottish dialect of Edinburgh and Glaswegian, uh, Scots, which is, uh, very, very vibrant dialect still.
But otherwise, all, all people in Scotland speak English, um, and I would say, uh, that English is absolutely the prestige language. And it's the language of practically everything that goes on in Scotland and most people only speak Gaelic and Scots as a sort of cultural choice, like a loyalty thing, you know, it doesn't really factor in many of the everyday, uh, uh, goings on of of of most of the country, unfortunately.
Right. So, so in terms of, to use the word popularity, how, how has Gaelic and Scots declined in the last just 100 years or so, 50 years, maybe. I don't know if that's a good time frame just to get an idea of of what's happening.
Yeah, well, it's it's very, it's really more than anything you would say since since the World Wars, there was a massive population decline because of all the young men, um, who were killed. For instance, you know, the the island of Lewis and Harris up in the Western Isles, you know, lost the largest amount of people, um, proportionally in the First World War. I believe it was the First World War. Probably the Second World War as well. I mean, incredible decimation of the population in in in the Highlands as a whole. But the Western Isles, I'm sure it was the First World War. The Isle of Lewis and Harris, they they lost the greatest, uh, they had the greatest losses in, in the war for anywhere in, in the UK.
Um, so that, that caused huge ruptions linguistically, um, because, you know, um, with population being unstable, it's been a steady stream into the Highlands since that time of of incomers who make no effort whatsoever to learn the language or very few of them do. Um, for instance, the Isle of Mull, you know, has a a population of people from England, which is about 50%. Um, which to many people will be shocking, but, um, it it's true. So, um, immigration, uh, has has been an issue for the simple reason that people haven't come in and respected the local culture and and made any effort to, to, to fit in with that. They they have just come in and and English has has, um, completely marginalized the the native culture of the Highlands and also the Lowland Scots language has has suffered a similar thing. Um, Gaelic speakers have been looked upon by the British state as being foreign and dangerous and Scots speakers have been looked upon as being kind of thick and and primitive, unfortunately.
Right. I was just imagining English tourists in like, uh, uh, South of Spain or something, you know, never speaking a word of Spanish and getting their fish and chips and gin and tonics and the Spanish people just like, Yes, exactly. What are you doing?
Yeah, I know. Tell me about it. That's the exact, that's the exact situation we have here. And yet they they come in and they want to run everything. They go on all the community councils, all the history societies, everything and they they come in with their big size 12s on and and think they they run the show.
So, the local people who are, you know, um, have suffered so much over the years with, uh, you know, political change with social upheavals, with being cleared from their land. There were massive clearances of people in the in the late 18th and right through to the late 19th centuries. Um, and there's actually a woman alive, uh, today whose father even in the 20th century was cleared twice from his land. And this was all by rapacious landlords who essentially adhere to a British cultural, uh, upper class stereotype and have nothing to do with the the people here. So, you know, we're still 2% of the Scottish population own 98% of the land.
Wow.
Um, and that has, that has had a, you know, we're we're a friend of mine who is, uh, uh, he's on a motorbike with his, with his friend from India to Scotland and kind of helping people on the way and getting involved in community ventures along the way. He said he was shocked when he came to Scotland that we're the only people who haven't thrown the the landlords out and reclaimed the land for ourselves.
Right.
So, you know, with all the people he'd visited along the way, you know, he said it was incredible that the Scottish, you know, we're we're so smart and inventive and, and, and, and so well liked, you know, that we haven't actually just thrown these landlords out and had massive land reform, which would have, if it had happened 100 years ago, you know, it would had a massive effect on language because it would have prevented immigration from the South of England and and the weakening of of the language and culture. But unfortunately it's too late. Um, and the situation's, uh, you know, completely irreparable. But, um, you know, there's still, there's still work that can be done on a personal level, you know, and, and, and communities to to at least, um, bring respect to our native languages, even if a complete restoration of their usages is out with the the realms of possibility.
Right. And that brings us right down to what you were talking about in the in the cafe, which was your own personal experience, uh, and when did you start getting into, no, let's go back actually, when did you first, because I, I presume you didn't grow up speaking Gaelic or or No.
I had a slight, no, I didn't speak either. I was brought up nominally British. Um, what does that mean? Well, it just means, you know, a citizen of the UK. You know, um, my my neither of my parents were particularly Scottish. My father's people are all all Irish in fact and, uh, his father had been in the First World War, my father in the Second World War and we're very much just in the whole flow of that, that being British sort of thing. Um, not they weren't patriotic Brits in the slightest, they weren't, you know, if anything they were they were both quite iconoclastic and quite anti-authoritarian, but, um, they didn't, certainly didn't, you know, it it sort of, um, former Irish people who have come to Scotland and and decided they want to to fit in. You see that with immigrants to anywhere. You know, they feel they better just get with the with the local program and and given that English was the prestige language and and upper class Brits ran everything in Scotland, then what you would do is you would come and you would just try and fit in with the the the highest possible level of society that you could, you could aim at. And that that, you know, that's that's what, what, what, what immigrants do for their own, for their own sanity, for their own protection and you know, try and make a better life for their kids. There's no blame whatsoever involved there, but that's what happens.
So I was kind of aroused, I was raised to speak the way I'm speaking just now. In fact, I my parents would probably consider even the way I'm speaking now slovenly. You know, they would have considered that the way that I that I'm even speaking English because I'm not speaking either of my languages just now, I'm not speaking Scots or Gaelic, obviously, um, I'm just speaking Scottish standard Scottish English with with a Scottish accent. Um, and even then my parents would have been pulling me up for not pronouncing my T's and, and, you know, all these kind of things. It is it was a an incredibly, um, uh, what, what, what, what's the word? Uh, uh, oppressive situation, you know, culturally.
Um, but luckily my grandmother had a, a smattering of a few words of Gaelic, which she'd learned from her father, who whose parents had been fluent speakers. Um, and and she passed on this concept. She always raised me to believe I was from Highland stock, you know, which which of course I am and that my people were Gaels and that they had all been speakers and, you know, this should really still be ours and, and it was ridiculous that we lost the language and and her own father had been of that same belief. And so she sort of planted a seed in me and she was the one that gave me access to history. She taught me all about, uh, you know, the fact that we were MacLeod's and, and taught me about the clan MacLeod and, I mean, there's a lot of nonsense and romance and and silliness involved in that, each clan having a tartan and all this rubbish, you know. Um, there's truth in all of these things, but the way it's portrayed today with the tartan and shortbread images of Scotland is a lot of crap.
Um, but so my granny was a wee bit, uh, that, that way, but she had enough of the, the good stuff that she passed it on to me and, and, and I remember lying in her hospital bed when she was coming towards the end of her life. You know, she passed away at 100 years old. She was quite a, quite the woman. Um, and I remember her shaking her fist and, and, and saying, Adam, you must bring the language back. You must bring it back into the family. You know, with her Morningside Edinburgh, a posh accent, you know.
Right.
So, it's a strange thing to be brought up nominally British and been brought up to pronounce all my T's and to, you know, I got packed off to a private school for a year and, and, you know, um, all these kind of a things, you know, whereas I mean we were we were we were absolutely poor, you know. It's the strangest thing, you know, our grandparents had all gone to school with with no shoes on, walked seven miles to school, you know, you know, and, and then this upwardly mobile thing in, in, in, in, uh, in Britain where, you know, people are are trying to better themselves, you know, rather than sticking with their culture, sticking with their people, sticking with their language. So that had been the the the process and I suppose my father's people had got caught up in that to an extent as well.
So I didn't even know my father was Irish until, well, I mean, he wasn't Irish, but his father was his own father was born in Ireland. But but he was he was 100% Irish and I had no idea that that he even was until I was I don't know, 12, 13, 14, something like that. You know. It's crazy. And my mother had no interest in culture whatsoever. You know, all all she wanted to to do was, uh, uh, you know, just just make sure that I got on, as it were. You know, so it was very, very cold, um, sort of, um, you know, a vague concept of identity. So I came out of my teens a bit of a tabula rasa. Um, you know, did a lot of drinking, did a lot of playing rock and roll, didn't know who the heck I was.
But my grandmother had kept this sort of narrative going all the time of you're a Highlander. Your people were Gaels. You know, you should bring the language back. And, um, eventually when I met my my wife and and we realized we were going to get married, have kids, the whole shooting match, um, I sort of said turned around, you know, to myself, you know, I looked myself in the mirror and sort of went, who the hell are you?
Yeah.
You know, Um, and do you want your kids to be asking themselves in 30 years time who the hell are they? You know. And so, um, I realized I was going to have to do something pretty drastic. And I had been raised, partially raised in Argyle and I always felt like that was home. And that's just out to West of Glasgow. Um, for anyone wanting to look at the map, um, Dunoon D U N O O N is the kind of, um, the town closest to Glasgow and then anywhere sort of West of that into the islands is, is Argyle.
Um, and, uh, so when it, when I, when I started learning Gaelic just mostly for fun, but also because of personal interest, well everything my grandm saying. Um, I, I, I got sort of bitten by the bug pretty strongly, almost the minute I started learning it. And I was like, there's something genetic in here, there's something in the blood. You know, um, and as time went on and and and the barriers in in my my brain broke down. And, um, Gaelic Gaelic has such a very particular structure and rhythm. The emphasis is always on the first syllable of any word unless it had a hyphen and you can see it's in the second syllable. Um, and and so it has this very particular rhythm. It's extremely restrictive in terms of what the rhythm has to be. And if if people speak it badly, um, it it sounds far worse than than in most languages. You know, Um, and so it it it very quickly starts to reboot your brain. Uh, and obviously here is me feeding, uh, you know, cultural nourishment back into myself while learning this language. And starting to feel just that little bit more whole with every single word that I learned. Um, and so I realized I was totally hooked on it. You know, what often what I say people is, you know, I I started smoking the Gaelic recreationally at the weekend and pretty soon I was injecting it straight into the vein.
Right. That's some colorful, uh, language. Yeah, you know, but that that's the best way to put it. I mean, you know, I I can only, um, relate it to to that or perhaps to, you know, some people have referred to me as a born again Gael. Right.
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And, and I'm, I'm absolutely thrilled if there's any way that I can inspire people to go on journeys with their own languages or other languages they're passionate about, I mean, there's nothing better. Um, so I suppose, uh, what I started to do when I started to learn was, I quite literally, over the course of two or three years, I read every single manual that was on the market from cover to cover and, and as I was going, I I just wrote down every single word that I didn't know yet. And then went over these lists scoring the word out when I realized I'd learned it. I mean, that's quite old fashioned in a way. But I did that with every single manual that was ever produced for Scottish Gaelic. I've read every single one cover to cover and learned every single word that's in any of them. You know, so, um, because for me it wasn't about, you know, very, very quickly I stopped feeling like a learner and started feeling like a reclaimer.
And it's a funny thing, um, and, uh, it's it's quite difficult because sometimes it it moves into mildly controversial territory because it's sometimes difficult for to whenever I speak to someone perhaps, um, you know, who is a person of color and and they're reclaiming their a cultural heritage or a language. They sometimes have a little bit of a stumbling block because I'm white. Um, you know, there's a kind of thing of, wait a minute, you're white. What do you mean you're reclaiming back an ancestral language? There's a, white people don't need to do that. They they've not been oppressed. And it's like, well, you know, I think if you look back into history, the oppression was tested on on the white people that were closest to the people who were going to oppress people. They tested it out on us first and then they took it on tour.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, the British were nasty a couple hundred years ago.
Definitely. The British were the British were the worst, there's there's ever been. I mean, in terms of in terms of empires that actually lasted, I mean, they're right up there with the with anything the Romans ever did. They they completely designed their entire empire on the Roman Empire. They were utterly horrendous. And and it's such a shame because that actually has has practically no bearing on the huge vast majority of English people that you meet. They're absolutely lovely like anyone else, you know. And you have this And you have this they they and we of course, too, we were we were heavily involved in this legacy of empire that we have so much stuff to work through. But anyway, um, get away from politics and back to language where where where where the where the the the real juice is, you know, where there's inspiration and not just depression.
Yeah, I agree.
Um, so it's it's kind of tough sometimes for for for for for people of color to understand just quite what the kind of chronology is and the fact that there are lots of basically tribal people, um, who who who who are are white skinned and who are are of European origin, who who who went through, um, you know, uh, very similar things to folks in in obviously what what what the Western world calls the New World. You know, um, before all of that took place. So, I I quite often our, uh, um, trauma is is maybe that little bit further back, but it's extremely similar.
The stories that that you find in the Highlands of of kids being beaten and having their mouths washed out with soap and being hit with meter sticks and and and belts and all goodness knows what, having skulls hung around their neck for speaking the language. Oh, I mean, it is it's like something straight out of the Indian Bureau of, you know, American Bureau of Indian Affairs. I mean, it's, you know, it's it's his things that tribal peoples all over the world will will associate with colonialism and it happened in Scotland before and and Ireland and Wales. Uh, you know, before it it it it it it came elsewhere.
So, what what what what you're doing when you're learning Scottish Gaelic as someone who is, I'm I'm three quarters Gael by by blood, you know, Irish and Scottish. Um, and you know, all my people, uh, almost to to the man going back, you know, if you went back a couple hundred years, there would be barely any of them who didn't speak Gaelic in in my in my ancestry. So, by blood I'm a Gael and therefore, um, it's not so much a a process of learning as it is a process of reclamation. And there, you know, I've I've often been accused by people who are born and bred Gaels, as in they learned the language at their mother's knee, of being a for Gael or a false Gael, you know. Um, and and I massively resent that because, you know, if if you, um, for instance, if you, uh, spoke to, uh, a Blackfoot, uh, Native American and, uh, they lost the language in their great grandfather's generation and they had claimed it and learned it, you know, back to fluency, would anyone ever say, you know, from here, a Scottish person, would they ever point to a a a Blackfoot Indian and say, you're a you're a false, you're a false Indian. You I mean, you would be strung up on the spot for that kind of thing and right and rightfully so.
You would get pretty short shrift and you'd be chased on your bike and, you know, away you go, pal, you know. And yet it seems to be okay here for people to kind of make these claims. Um, and and and even though From within the community or is it people who Yeah.
Yeah, and then and I know that, uh, a lot of, uh, folks all over the world in tribal communities, uh, will go through exactly the same thing. That internal envy, jealousy, you know, uh, resentment thing of course. Um, but it's it's it's always just incredible to me when, when you get hit with with things like that, you know, um,
So you're saying that Gaelic speakers when you make yourself, uh, you know, you you make the contact or the connection and you speak and you you gave give the story that you've given today. There are people, there are sort of old school, I don't know what to call them, you know, the, the, those who you mentioned before, they give you, they give you a bit of flat for it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Wow.
Yeah, you know, who who do you think you are? You're you're not a Gael, you're a Glaswegian. But but they but Glaswegians when I was at school would call me a tuchter, as in someone from the Highlands. So, you can't win even if you try. It's the Glaswegians wanted to the Glaswegians wanted to strike me off as a Highlander and the Highlanders from time to time want to strike me off as a Glaswegian. No one wants to accept responsibility for somebody who's doing so well at what they're doing because it kind of shines a bit of a negative light on them. Oh, what are you doing? And they're not doing anything, they're not speaking the language to their kids, they're not passing it on, they're not doing they're doing bugger all.
And so, you're always going to get that resentment of, uh, you know, it's our language and we shall arrange the funeral. You know, um, and that which is I can't claim that quote that was a a friend of mine Gregor Laurie that said that and he's absolutely right. He he he feels that that's the attitude of a lot of people. But, um, that's only on the negative side. There are masses of people within the Gaelic community who are absolutely thrilled at what folks like myself and other reclaimers are doing and and feel incredibly buoyed up and encouraged by it, you know. But, um, it it's just the way the, you know, my thinking flowed there, I happened to touch on that issue that that there is, um, you know, internal resentment there, but I think you'll find that anywhere you go in the world, you know, that you're going to find that.
So, as I say, not so much learning, reclaiming. And I consider my right to the language absolutely implicit as as a Gael. Um, and therefore, uh, I have passed it on to my kids and they've been raised as Gaels from from birth. So, you know, anyone sort of wants to to take me on, well, you know, they'll they'll they'll they'll end up having to go through my kids first and and try telling them they're not Gaels when they've spoken language, you know, from their from at their father's knee. You know, so, these kind of a things have been repaired by passing it on to the next generation in the sense that they now have that totally implicit right and, uh, ability with it, you know.
Sure.
Um, so for me it wasn't so much learning a language as it was, uh, mending a gap and inter intergenerational transmission and re-establishing the the what, uh, John Lorne Campbell called the the carrying stream of culture, uh, you know, uh, within our people.
Yeah. And was it, was it tough to find like materials or resources or you said you read every book, so I assume the the catalog must have been a little bit limited even for someone as as passionate as you to get through.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, these days you will find it relatively easy to learn Scottish Gaelic. There's a great series called Speaking Our Language. Um, and and you can find that at learngaelic.scot/sol. So SOL just for Speaking Our Language. And it's a TV series from the 90s and it's actually really good, really well put together. And some of the fashion choices will give you a laugh as well. You know, it's it's it's really good fun. So, that's there, you can get all of that online, it's terrific.
Um, learngaelic.scot has just has got everything, resources, you know, um, it's got, uh, you know, information where classes are held and what type of classes are available and and all these kind of a things. So, that is there now and when I started learning, you know, 15 years ago or something, there was there was nothing like that. I went to a local council class, which was, I mean, it was great for a start. Um, but really speaking, I had to be absolutely driven to do it on my own. I did 90% of my learning on my own with no tutor at all. Um, and then went and sat my higher grade, uh, Gaelic exam, you know, to get the equivalent of a school leavers certificate for it, just so that I had that and I could say I've got it to balance it out. But by that time I was already way above the material that was being taught. It was more just a satisfaction thing to say that yes, I have an A in in higher English and and I also have an A in higher Gaelic, you know, just to. Just to get it, you know, get it, get it get it, you know, kind of balanced up.
Um, so no doubt that these days it's a far easier, uh, task than than it was 15 years ago.
Right. And, uh, it must have it must still be a big challenge for anyone today, I would imagine, even if, uh, even if they're great resources now. It's still a big task to learn a language that's so different to what most people have as their native language.
Yeah, well, without a shadow of doubt and also of course, it's it's the it's the old story, the the oft stated issue, which, um, you know, boils down to the fact that you can only go to to, you know, maybe half a dozen, you know, tiny islands that are part of, uh, the Western Isles now. Um, to to to really hear, you know, nothing but Gaelic. You know, you you basically just you can't get anywhere. People, uh, you know, people are turning into Anglo-Americans wherever you look. Let's be honest, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The kind of bland linear concept of progress. Um, you know, is is dragging us all down the road to flaming, you know, cultural desolation, you know, so, um, the same thing's happening in the Western Isles. The only reason that they've lasted so long is an accident of geography because they're cut off from the mainland.
Right.
You know, they're going to get down exactly the same road because we've seen it happen. The language has retreated further and further and further and further West. Um, and we've seen it happen all the mainland areas and and now it's happening in the Western Isles as well where where the mainland was at just after the Second World War. You know, it's where the Western Isles are, are now, you know. So, um, it won't, you know, 50 years and at the absolute most and it'll be dead as a community language. Um, you know, unless we actually have a complete overhaul, uh, we we build a will worldwide, you know, establish a a world, uh, minority language council and and, uh, you know, start, um, you know, um, really taking personal responsibility for what's about to happen and there's so many people that are doing that and it's brilliant to see, you know, you get encouraged news every day. So it's certainly not all depressing, but this there's an incredible struggle that's going to be required. And and it ties into, you know, um, environmental diversity of course, is an oft oft spoken thing now is that, you know, language is a, it's a I can I can look at the Gaelic word my head now. So, is a an analogy, a perfect analogy for for for what's going on, um, with the environment and and, uh, all sorts of other areas, you know, so the struggle is, um, you know, it's it's it's it's it's multi, uh, layered.
Yeah. It seems like a big a big part of the problem or the challenge is that the people who speak it at a very high level are part of the older generation. So, it's really about passing it on to the next generation before that generation dies out completely.
Yeah, exactly.
And if you don't change kind of the the mindset of the, you know, the schools and, uh, I can imagine how tough it must be if you're if you're in a school that isn't in contact with the Gaelic community and you're as a parent, you you you taking on that challenge which can cause the child some distress, you know. If you get bullied in school or will you get less opportunity for for college or what's going to happen there? So, I mean, that must be the biggest challenge of all to just convince the parents that it's that that you can do that without damaging the child forever.
Oh, no. Well, well, well, well, well, this is it. I think I think we're we're probably over that particular challenge now just within the last 10 years. I think we've moved on significantly and and the benefits of bilingual education and Gaelic medium education are now being seen. However, that has been confused with language revival. And and people have people from minority language communities are obsessed with schools. Totally obsessed with schools. They think schools are the answer to everything.
Now, if you think back in your life to when you were at school, how much did you learn from school that you actually use in your everyday life? Well, socializing with other people was probably the biggest part of any of it. Yeah. In terms of actually what's going on in the curriculum, yeah, I mean there's random facts. I'll remember and there's bits and pieces that I'll think, oh, yeah, I've probably learned to do that in school. Time's tables. You know, basic arithmetic. You know, you train fair, you know, these things are all important, but really speaking in terms of the things that you're most passionate about and they're central to your life, you did not learn them at school.
And yet minority language communities are totally obsessed with getting languages into school. Now, why aren't they concentrating on the real prize, which is to support intergenerational transmission and to and support it at at a high level? So rather than kids going into the schools now and what's happening in Scotland is, um, the kids just come out speaking in absolutely pigeon, you know, Gaelic. I mean, it's I can't even understand what they're saying most of the time. The only reason I can understand what they're saying is because I speak English because they're just speaking English through the medium of Gaelic. The grammar's English, the idiomes is English, the accents's practically English. There's nothing Gaelic about it apart from the words. So, you know, uh, you know, teaching the English language, English mindset curriculum through the medium of Gaelic does absolutely nothing to nourish the heart of the language.
Yeah.
All it does is make people sympathetic to the cause and and and, you know, gives kids the chance to be broadly speaking bilingual, which will probably help them to to pick up other languages. But in terms of actually, actually, you know, supercharging the heart and soul of Gaelic to power out again into communities, to make them self aware and to respect themselves and and their their their ancestors again. You know, to to to strive to make their ancestors proud of them, which is really all that matters in life as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't matter, you know, what you achieve, how much money you you you manage to amass, you know, what kind of house you've got, you know, what kind of job you've got. All that means absolutely nothing if your ancestors would look at you and go, you're a piece of, well, you know, I'm not going to say it.
You know, it's it's it's meaningless all this, this concept of achievement because then all of us will be, you know, you know, hopefully many years down the line, we'll be lying in our deathbeds and and and what has any of that achievement mean? If we haven't passed on something meaningful to our kids, not just some bland concept of linear progress where you've just got off the hamster wheel. No, the reason you've got off it is because you fell off it, because you're ready to die. And now your kids are, you know, trailing around crazy on the hamster wheel as well. You know, it's all things nuts and yet we're still at it, we're still doing it. And it's turning the planet to dust, it's destroying the the the environment while we're at it. The whole economic system is a mess. You know, and it's all just buy, buy, buy, sell, sell, sell, consume, consume, consume. And languages are treated the same way.
And if Gaelic is only just going to grab onto the coattails of English and just do this crazy hamster wheel, you know, uh, terror breakneck white knuckle ride to destruction, then what's the point in learning it? What's the point in keeping it alive? It has to carry a cultural, uh, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, a different message. It has to carry a a different, um, integrity and it has to be, um, valid on its own, stand on its own feet and not just as another cipher for Anglo-American culture. Otherwise, there's no point in it existing at all. So the idea of revival is been compromised by exposure to to English language mindset and ideals. And, um, it's irreparable as far as I'm concerned in in terms of the school system, you know, it's just another way to speak English now.
However, if we can light the fire in people's souls at a community level again and get them communicating with their old people and getting the the mentor the mentor apprentice models, it was originally named by Leanne Hinton. This incredible thing that has actually resurrected, helped to resurrect languages on on America's West Coast tribal languages there. And something like that where people are put back into a natural environment whereby, you know, you you you you you go to the shop with with with your elder and you help them do their shopping. Then you come back and and and you get involved in whatever crafts they're interested in or whatever housework they need to do. Or even if, you know, whatever your your your you're just looking at a book together or you go for a walk and you just talk to them and you repeat exactly what they're saying and how they they're saying it. And you you you you shut up, you swallow your ego, you forget all your own selfishness and nonsense and you just listen to someone who's lived longer than you, who knows a heck of a lot more than you and is far better equipped to tell you how to speak this language than you could ever be because they're a native and they've they've learned it from their mother's knee.
And and that's how you do. And that's that's how I polished my language up is by going and spending as much time as possible with the oldest natives that I could find and and and you know, I didn't quite sit cross-legged in front of them, but, you know, No, it's like. I think it was like speaking. You know, and and it's funny though, because language revival has it's been dragged out of the home, out of the out of the nest, as as they often call it. And it's been moved into this sort of, um, sphere of of conceptualization where we must figure out a way to save this language. What the heck are you talking about? Get the young people back in with the old people and get them learning like they have for a million years of human evolution.
Yeah. Yeah, it's simple, right? You know.
Yeah, it's simple.
You know, one thing that I just thought about is, um, one of my most, uh, I want to say notorious blog posts I've ever written was titled, why we should let languages die and enjoy those who are still around. I think it was like something about minority languages. Obviously a very provocative title. But the main gist of the argument was, if the language survives because some fat Danish guy wants to learn, you know, some kind of, let's say, an Indian language or a tribal language. Then my argument was that that's that doesn't make any sense because you're not that's, you know, a language is culture. So, just that because I know the grammar rules and the pronunciation doesn't really mean that the language survives.
Um, and that that was kind of what I heard a little bit of that in in in yours as well. So I just that just reminded me of, uh, of of that post where, obviously, I got a little lot of, uh, social justice warriors, uh, coming into, uh, tell me how wrong I was. But I think that that it it it's important to to say that because you see it also in, in Ireland and in in Wales, I think. I'm not an expert on these things, but I hear a lot about how the students have Irish or Welsh on the on the on their timetables, but it's sort of a joke to them. You know, it's not oh, it's time for for for Irish, you know. And then when they get get out of school, they they they know a few words and they can say a few sentences. But they they're not really learning what that means and and and get becoming who their ancestors were in any way. It's just sort of so, so what I was thinking is the the double identity that we we talked a little bit on earlier, is that is there any way to really improve that?
Like, what what what what can can apart from obviously enticing the parents and encouraging the parents to to pass it on properly and and take the time with the elders? Um, is is it just too much in terms of globalization and and the, you know, the competitiveness of the economic system? Because if you if you live in Scotland, if you live in Wales, if you live in Ireland, Yeah. English is just so strong. You know, and and it would be tough to convince anyone that their child is better off learning, you know, one of the minority languages rather than English. So, what what what what what can we do, you know, really? Because I'd like to I'd like to do I'd like to see more of that cultural survival. And I think maybe we should start calling it that instead of language survival, because Yeah. The language surviving means nothing. I mean, we've got, we've got recordings of Gaelic, so it survives. But the culture behind it, that's where it's important.
You know, I absolutely, absolutely agree and and and obviously, you know, I appreciate that there's an element in your blog where you were just really keen to generate, you know, good debate and and and just get the thing talked about, you know. Um, I think that's sometimes very useful. I've done that many times in the past. I I wrote a an article, which you can find online, um, called, uh, zombie girl. And it it it was basically comparing Scottish Gaelic to a resurrected zombie who had no soul. You know. And and and essentially that that's that's basically what what what it is. And anyone who says otherwise is a system justifier. They're they're just they're just they're they're more loyal to the revival than they are to the actual language and culture.
Yeah.
People in Scotland at the moment who are involved with the Gaelic revival tend to be loyal to just that to the revival, to the concept of the revival, to the institutions that are involved in revival. There's never to be any bad news. Nobody's ever to criticize anything that's happening. It's all just good news, good news, good news. Someone has someone from Wales or Ireland gave me a great word for it recently. I can't remember what it is, but it's a form of triumphalism. It's all look at all, you know, at the top of the rooftop with the with the bugle, you know, look, we've saved the language. And anyone who actually tells the truth and says, you know, saved what language? You you might have got some form of of of the basic structure and and basic appearance of the language preserved, you know, in the same way you put a cucumber in vinegar in and in a jar and you stick it on a shelf.
You know, but the actual lifeblood of the culture, the the the beliefs, you know, the cosmology, the the the the sense of place that that the Gaels had is is almost totally gone. And it's only the very oldest people in the Western Isles who even then most of them only just remember their grandparents maybe, you know, saying a prayer to the sun or the moon or or or or, you know, um, pouring a glass of milk into a fairy mound or, you know, these kind of a things. And and folk, oh, what a lot of rubbish. I mean, that's primitive. You know, in whose universe is it primitive? You know, what what what what what has our highly developed world done but send itself off on a on a on a breakneck wheelbarrow ride to hell? You know, so, you know, it it's not about primitivism versus, uh, you know, the the idea of development. You know, it's it's it's it's it's about the fact that there were certain systems, there was a cosmology, there was a way of looking at the world and and different, uh, you know, flavors of it exist all over the planet that were integrated with the earth.
Now, Gaelic doesn't have a a a a native word for nature. The word for nature is natur, which you can tell is just the same word. And and the reason for that is because there is no nature in Gaelic. There's no such thing as nature. There's just there's just us and we're we're in it and it's in us and and, you know what I mean? It's everything.
Yeah. It's not. It's everything. It's not. You know.
And it this, you know, people saying now, you'll hear people saying in Gaelic now, you know, oh, oh, how are you with us? Are you with us? Or are you with us? You know, and very fond of nature. And it can, you know, makes anyone who who has a deep, uh, education in the mindset from having just studied, you know, anything that's available of the cosmology and and the poetry and the song and just listen to people old people speaking Gaelic, listen to all any old recordings there. You know, look back into into the earliest texts and how people looked at the world. I mean, it just sounds ridiculous. You know, but but but this this this now, you know, Gaelic is now just a sort of, um, a pimple on the arse of the of the of the of the of the grander kind of, you know, Anglo-American, uh, uh, mothership.
Yeah, you're not wrong. Yeah. That that's the cost of globalization. You know, we're we're we're the fact that we're speaking now being able to communicate in English is is is a positive product of globalization. You know, the way we can travel, the way we can enrich our lives in in so many ways. So, so not to say that it's exclusively negative, but you can definitely see the kind of the the fallout from it. It is is very clear.
Um, I was wondering, what do you think? I I I also just wanted to get your your your a quick comment on on Scots as well. But, um, what do you think would be the sort of ideal future development for for Gaelic? Would it be to have a community of a certain size? I mean, I assume the number naturally is going to go down over the years. But maybe is it possible to strengthen the numbers that there are and and make the community more connected and maybe get viable? Yeah. Can you can you increase the status? Like, can you get like official, uh, can you get condoms?
The problem is that that any any any move from the official end of things has just been gray and dull and all it wants to statistics and speaker numbers and, you know, it's it's it's it's been a quantity over quality approach. That's what's happened. And and and so so at the last census in 2011, they said, oh, there was a slightly you know, slightly less of a decline, you know, in the numbers of speakers because kids had gone into Gaelic medium education. And you're like, yeah, but these kids can't hold a conversation. If you got a a you know, say a native speaker from from Arsik, there's a few of them left in in the, you know, uh, Western Highlands and you sat them down with with a seven-year-old who'd come through a couple of years of Gaelic medium education. They couldn't speak to each other.
Right.
They they would they would have to be immensely patient with each other and sit for an hour until they figured out each other's dialects. You know, well, one would basically speaking English through the medium of Gaelic, the child. And and and and the person from the Western Highlands, you know, speaking the the the beautiful mellifluous language of their ancestors. And it's a totally different animal.
Yeah.
So, this this approach to this quantity over quality approach is just decimated what was left to the self respect of the language. And I don't get me wrong. You massive amount of people who would just turn around and just go that's a horribly negative way to look at things. How dare you say all of that. You know, and it's like, well, look, you know, do you want to look at the evidence? Do you want to actually look at the situation as it is or do you just want to keep on with the bail bollocks, as we call it, you know, we're trumpeting about how great everything is. Or do you actually want to look at the facts? You know, and unless we look at the facts, the situation is up the swan entirely.
However, what I was going to say is, you had I something previously about, um, how to combat, you know, the English speaking world when it's so powerful. And and my answer to that is that you don't. Um, there was a, uh, there's an interesting, um, passage in in the, uh, the Christian Bible, um, which is very relevant in fact. And I paraphrase. I I'm not a Christian myself, although I did study theology, but that was long many moons ago. Um, and it's it's something along the lines of, um, give on to Caesar what is Caesar's. And what Jesus was was saying was, you know, pay the taxes to to the Romans. Because, you know, if you live a spiritual life, money means nothing to you anyway. So, who, you know, you're mourning about taxes to the Romans. Just pay, pay the Romans their taxes. Give them their their their their their nasty grubby money. And and you concentrate on on on on being a good person. And that is exactly what we need to do in minority language communities.
Instead of making Gaelic chase after English at this crazy pace, trying to keep up with it. Why in Earth are we doing that? You know, it it's it's it's it's like putting a child into the Olympic sprint event because he's good at running. And saying, hey, take, you know, there's there's all there's all the All Stars of the past. There's there's Linford Christie, there's Carl Lewis. There's the Jamaican fella, I can't remember his name. You know, there you go. You know, there's all the All Stars of the history of running. You you you you just take them on. Because English has that accumulative power of generations of of of being the the prestige language. And Gaelic has compared to that, nothing, absolutely nothing. So, why are we going into, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, a competition, uh, without any of the correct equipment? When actually, we actually have a whole different set of equipment for a whole different competition. And actually it's not a competition at all.
You know, it it it's the it's the quiet drizzling rain at the beach in Harris. You know, it's the soft flow of the wind through the the Scots pines in Glen Affric. You know, it's the bloom of of of of the daisies on on the side of the hill at Loch Suain. You know, this this is where our power comes from from our environment, from our ancestors. And so, what you do is, you give on to on to Caesar what is Caesar's and you keep for you what is yours. So, you say to kids, it's not about Gaelic trying to keep up with English. Gaelic is not for that. English is for all that stuff. You want to go to the pictures and watch American movies? Who doesn't? Sometimes there's great films and they're great fun. I go to the movies and watch a whole you know, stuff from Hollywood and and it's all formulaic. But, you know what, sometimes I enjoy it. Fine. Go and do that stuff. You know, listen to rock and roll, whatever you want to do.
But you you must separate the inside of yourself, your your heart, your soul, your culture from that. And you must say, this is just for me and my people and my community. And when we are speaking to one another as Gaels, then we speak to one another as Gaels. So we give on to Caesar what is his, we give on to Anglo-America what what belongs to that. And and and we we we keep our own language for what it's it has the strength to do. Now, that's not to ghettoize it. Because as it gets strong again on its own terms, then it's able to branch out into into what people recognize as modern culture, read as, you know, Anglo-American culture. You know, it it but you cannot make it, you know, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, bark with the the, what did we say in Gaelic, you know, bark with the, bark with the dogs and and, uh, me with the sheep.
Yeah.
Um, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't work like that when a language is is still incredibly weak and has no prestige. You cannot make it compete. So don't make it compete. Do not disrespect it by making it compete, by forcing it to do things that's not capable of doing. Build the strength back up again and then in its own time, on its own terms, Gaelic will find her way into other areas of life. But at the moment it needs to be protected and nourished and and and it's not going to happen. Not.
Well, I I I think it's a good point to make that that English can, you know, you can coexist. It's not the enemy. It's a it's a Yeah, of course it's not. Yeah. And and it's like part of the it's a part of the identity anyway. If if you live in Scotland today, English will be part of you whether you whether you like it or not, so to speak.
Yes, exactly. But but it's important.
Yeah. Exactly. So, but it's a good point to have because a lot of people, I think when we talk about language revival or minority languages, it's sort of an us versus them mentality. And that's probably been damaging kind of the cultural identity of Scotland and also Wales and Ireland. I I feel like the the struggles are kind of similar. Uh, for many years where, you know, you said you had your own identity and and I I would imagine it's the same for pretty much any Scottish child today where they grow up in this, you know, it's UK, it's Anglo-American like you say, you've got the Hollywood, you've got the rock and roll, you've got the the the the Braveheart past so to speak. And and it's just hard to find your place there, I think. Especially that's even without the languages.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I I I I think the thing to remember is, just because you have a car does not mean that you should quit walking.
Right. Exactly. This, this is it. I can't really say any more than that. That's the analogy. You know.
No, it's true.
But and but I'd like to just emphasize that because I know a lot of people, I know, who learn languages, uh, who learn obscure languages, even they have no relation to it. And and I think that if people are interested in learning it, that should also be encouraged, even though it doesn't have anything to do with the culture we talked about earlier. I I think if if people want to learn something like this, I think they should definitely do it and it would be a good good project for themselves, but probably not so much for the Gaelic community and the the revival that we're talking about.
Sure. Uh, but oh, it would be a fa fascinating wonder off the beaten track, as it were. You know.
Yeah, I'm I'm sure I mean you might have met some of those people already there who come from different backgrounds or different countries. I remember there was a, there was a video, I don't know, maybe it was a commercial or something, an ad for something, but there was this Chinese person or or definitely Asian who wanted to take a a a year in Ireland or something. He started he looks up Irish because he's like, okay, I need to speak Irish. And they all speak English except for this old old guy. And it's just a very pure moment. I don't know where it's from, whether it's from a TV show or what it is, but it was just a really brilliant moment where you, everyone's like speaking English and he's like, why don't they understand me? And and and this old guy is like, I understand you, my son. And that was just a very pure moment. I don't I didn't realize you spoke Chinese. You know, I mean. But it's a brilliant video. People should definitely look it up. But that's what that's kind of the experience that I expect people to have if they actually did do this. In Scotland.
Oh, they do. There's apparently there's a a German person, I can't remember who it was and they came to to, um, Glasgow and and they were shocked to find that no one spoke Gaelic. So it's almost like it's it's almost like, um, the situation's kind of, you know, one of the other is black black and it's it's white in the sense that people either, um, you know, uh, expect, uh, Scottish people from one end of the country to the other to speak nothing but just English with an accent. Or people come over and go, it's Scotland. And and and, you know, historically the the the native language was was Gaelic and, you know, so Yeah. you know, why are people speaking it? I would have loved to see the, like the look on the Glaswegian barman when, uh, somebody came in and, uh, and, uh, out. You're talking about me, chase yourself.
Anyway, thank you so much for coming on again. Uh, I really enjoyed it. It's a it's a fabulous story, I think. And like all the best in the future, I'm sure it's going to be fantastic. I appreciate it.
I thanks very much for your time and and, uh, you know, I've I've I've enjoyed the chance to bang my gums as we say in Glasgow, you know.
Yeah. We definitely learning a lot of Glaswegian slang as well. Not sure we might come in there.
I can't help it coming in there and again because I went to school here. So I had to learn Glaswegian slang, you know, to to prevent myself getting kicked around playground.
Right. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Actual Fluency podcast. I really appreciate having you here today. Just before you leave, I just want to give a quick shout out to today's sponsor, which is iTalki. iTalki is the tutoring platform where you can find affordable tutors for every language in the world pretty much. So get started today and get a free $10 credit when you book your first lesson. If you go to actualfluency.com/italki, and that's spelled I T A L K I. So give it a go and feel how tutoring can really boost and enhance your language learning.