Gabriel Gelman: How to become a language hero
Kris Broholm and guest Gabriel Gelman discuss Gabriel's personal language learning journey, from his bilingual upbringing to immersion experiences in Australia and France. They cover practical methods and strategies to help listeners achieve faster and better language learning results.
March 23, 2019 · 54 min
EP 149: Gabriel Gelman: How to become a language hero
0:00 / 53:38
Guest
Gabriel Gelman
What You'll Hear
- 1 Welcome & Gabriel's Bilingual Upbringing
- 2 From School Struggles to Multilingual Success
- 3 Sprachheld: German Language Learning Blog & Courses
- 4 Football Analogy: Apply Language, Not Just Study
- 5 Practical Steps: Input, Relevance, Small Daily Actions
- 6 Find Motivation, Use Language From Day One
- 7 Overcome Speaking Fear: Step-by-Step Immersion Strategies
- 8 Language Learning Is A Learnable Skill
Links Mentioned
Questions Covered in the Show
Who is Gabriel Gelman and how did he start learning languages?- 1m
What is Sprachheld and what is its main goal?- 6m
What are the most effective strategies for learning a foreign language as an adult?- 15m
How can language learners overcome the fear of making mistakes when speaking?- 27m
Does moving to a foreign country guarantee language fluency through immersion?- 37m
Is language learning a skill, and does it get easier with more languages?- 50m
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Welcome to the Actual Fluency podcast. Each week you'll find inspirational, motivational interviews with some of the world's best language learners, industry experts, all trying to help you to learn foreign languages better, faster, and more efficiently. And here we go.
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Hello everyone, and welcome to episode 149 of the Actual Fluency Podcast. Today I'm joined by Gabriel Gelman, who is the founder of Sprachheld, which is a German language learning blog and website, where he helps everyone to learn languages. Well, at least if you speak German.
And in the episode we get into a lot of practical discussions about learning languages, some of Gabriel's experiences learning a couple languages himself, and also the methods and strategies that you can use today to hopefully get some better and faster results in your own language learning. So enjoy this episode with Gabriel, and I'll see you in the next one.
Gabriel, welcome to the podcast. Do you want to start by giving the listeners a little introduction to who you are, where you're from, and how you got into language learning?
Thank you, Kris. Sure, it would be my pleasure. So, um, I am from Germany, or at least I grew up in Germany. I was born in the Ukraine, uh, but came to Germany when I was two years old, so, um, I had the advantage of growing up bilingual, which means I would speak Russian to my parents, and, but my daily life with friends and school would be in German.
However, that didn't really help me with languages in school and didn't really spark any interest for foreign languages, because, uh, I think that's pretty normal around the age of 10. Um, that's the most dangerous phase. I was wondering why am I speaking Russian at home, while everybody else is speaking German at home. So I tried to rebel. Uh, I told my parents I don't want to speak Russian at home. They didn't really let me. So we continued speaking Russian at home, um, a fact that I'm really happy about today.
My interest came a little bit later, so in school I wasn't, like I said, I wasn't really good at languages. Um, we had first English, I think in fourth grade. I wasn't very good in it. Um, I was a pretty average learner, at some point I even was under average. Um, then came French in seventh grade, which I started off awfully. Like I was, I was really bad. Um, probably around eighth or ninth grade, I got a little bit better, my French was a little bit better than my English, but everything, it was just school subjects, subjects that that I had to learn about that I wasn't really interested in.
I knew I had to learn English. Um, there was no way around it. In Germany, it's very difficult to have any sort of career without knowing English. So I decided, or my parents were also always playing with the idea of me going to to a foreign country where I could speak English. And I decided to go to Australia in 11th grade, um, to learn English, because I knew it wasn't going to work the way we usually do in in school, because my English wasn't very good before going to Australia, neither was my French.
And so I went to Australia for a year in 11th grade and, um, it worked. The experiment worked, I came back. My English was very good. I was fluent, I was very happy with it. And that's pretty much what sparked my interest in languages, or at least that's where it started. Um, because I thought, okay, so this really works. Um, why not do it again with French?
So, um, at university I went to France for nine months and, um, again, it worked. I, when I left France, my French was very good, very stable. Um, but while I was in France, like my, my interest for languages grew and, uh, I was thinking, okay, why not do it for other languages as well? And I was surrounded by Spanish Erasmus students. And I was in Toulouse, which is very close to the the Spanish border and, um, most international students in Toulouse are Spanish people. And so I was suddenly surrounded by Spanish people speaking Spanish while I was in France, trying to learn French.
So, um, I was like, okay, then let's try learn to learn Spanish as well. And, um, I did and, uh, I started language school, didn't work very well. And then I started to apply the principles that I learned in Australia and in France, um, to learn the respective languages. And, uh, I learned Spanish that way, which means with a lot of input, to listen to a lot of Spanish and, uh, to speak as much as possible. And, uh, uh, it worked with Spanish as well. I wasn't as good as in Spanish as I was in French when I left France, but over the years I kept on learning Spanish and, uh, it got better and better without me ever spending a lot of time in Spain or in a Spanish-speaking country like I did with French and English. So that was my first language that I learned without actually spending a lot of time abroad.
And, um, then a few years later Hebrew come came about. Um, I decided to learn Hebrew and, uh, I applied everything I learned, uh, with the other three languages and I learned it purely through the internet and, um, it worked as well. I haven't used Hebrew for a few years now, so it got a little bit rusty. Um, but now I'm learning Polish and, uh, I'm reusing the same principles. So, um, yeah, that's, that's my story.
Cool. And and at what point during this, uh, did when did you start the your website Sprachheld?
I started it around the same time maybe a little bit before I started learning Hebrew, because, uh, at that time I already abstracted the principles about how to learn a language fluently, although with my work on Sprachheld and with by dipping into the polyglot world and seeing other polyglots that have learned many more languages than I did, um, I continued my, I continued learning about how, about effective language learning, but I started a little bit before I started to learn Hebrew. So by the time that I already learned Spanish.
Right. Fantastic. And and just for people who aren't familiar, can you just summarise what what what can one find on Sprachheld? Obviously it's in German, uh, which which I think is great and I, I think I told, told you this when we met, uh, some time ago that there's a lot of information in English about learning languages and there's a lot of content, um, and I really like to see much more in other languages. Not because of my own sort of, oh, I'll practice my German by listening to people talking about language learning because that's my interest. No, more for I think to kind of broaden the reach of the materials and, and there are still lots of people in all languages that that where English is just not strong enough.
Um, obviously German on the whole, I would say, are probably really good at at English compared to many other countries, but I'm sure there are lots of pockets. I mean, your, your own upbringing is a good example where English was a little bit underprioritised or maybe underappreciated, I'm not sure. Um, so I think that's a fantastic idea. But but what what's the, what's the mission sort of for, to use a very grand term?
Yeah, I started as a as a language learning blog and, um, I decided to do it in German because I saw how crowded the the English market is and there's lots of good information about how to learn a foreign language effectively in English. And there wasn't as much in German, um, by far, like there's much, much more in English.
And, um, yes, I started just talking about my experiences and, uh, about effective, uh, strategies or methods, um, that helped me learn my language. And, uh, what I realised the more time I spent with this topic and the more time I spent with other polyglots, um, that learned a lot of languages themselves, is that although my method works and it works really well for me, um, everybody learns a little bit in a different way. Although I think everybody learns by the same strategy, which is the strategy of applying the language, using it, hearing it, speaking it, there's still different methods to to learn a language.
And, uh, so I started first from very much from my own point of view to a more global point of view, uh, on how to generally learn a language and showing the different methods and, uh, more about strategy than than than methods in general. And, um, from there we started also to realise that there's a lot of potential to to to make courses to learn a language. Because although there's as many, there's so many courses out there, still most people struggle and still most people fail learning a language, because I get emails every day with people saying they tried lots and lots of things, but they weren't really successful. So we decided to create courses and we started by Spanish a little bit over a year ago and we're still developing that and then we want to venture out into into other languages.
Right. And and that that was people who have, uh, obviously a German native speaker who find that who finds that the materials out there are mostly in English and that the German, the quality of the German material is just not not that good.
It's not even that. I think the biggest problem with learning a language for German people is, um, first of all, we our language learning system is better than many other countries, but it's still very much grammar and vocabulary based. And, um, I mean, everybody knows that you're not going to learn a language by studying grammar and vocabulary.
Right.
And, yeah, so they still have those, this is still the general idea. And people that are not successful with learning a language, they just think, okay, they don't have the talent, but they don't realise that even though everybody talks about this and we learn a language this way in school for many, many years, that's not the the way to learn a language.
So, um, people are just, they try a lot of things, but they try more of the same. So it's mostly about education. It's mostly about telling people that that's not the way to learn a language, even though you everybody teaches languages that way, that's not, you don't learn, uh, foreign language like you learn history or like you learn maths or something of that. So it's, it's mostly about showing people that's not the way to learn a language. You you're not going to learn football by by being in classroom, by by being in class, you're going to learn football by by going out in the field. So, um, so people they they try a lot of things, but it's mostly the same.
It's the vocabulary apps, it's the, uh, kind of the, the the old school way that still prevails.
Yeah, yeah. Or even if they try some new modern apps, um, they don't realise that there's a lot of apps out there, um, that promote new ways to learn a language, but they're but those apps are more games than actually language learning apps. And I don't want to name any right now, but, um, there's a lot of apps that that are very popular, but but they're really just games. I mean, you're not going to learn a language by by filling out, uh, like a missing word or, yeah, doing a puzzle or something. That's not how you learn a language.
That's how I see a lot of the apps and I, I actually had a a massive pet peeve against apps for many years, because I haven't found, I haven't seen one example of an app that actually teaches a language in a natural way. Like 99% of the apps out there are just modified flash card apps. Like they, they just, you know, you said a the missing word or it could be, you know, other ways of kind of interacting with the material. But if you break them down, they're all fundamentally just spaced repetition of of words, sometimes phrases, but actually that's pretty rare. Uh, often I see it with the, with, with, uh, just single words.
And I tried that, you know, because I was like, okay, all these apps are popular, Duolingo and all these and I, I tried to learn a lot of words and it got me nowhere. Yeah. It helped in a way, but I would have been, I would have gotten much, much better and quicker results if I had just focused more on phrases, more on real language, done more one-on-one tutoring, uh, instead of these apps. So, as we speak, I still, there's no app that I will say can, you know, really support a language learner.
Obviously, it's better to do if you're busy and you don't really have a lot of ways to learn the language or go to class or use a online tutoring or whatever. Duolingo is better than nothing. Yeah, you know, whatever. Uh, you know, but I think a lot of people expect very big results from, from a lot of these apps and, yeah, and it's kind of symptomatic.
So what, what should we do instead? Like what, what would you kind of, uh, if you had to summarise your principles, you you you say that immersion is great, uh, based on what you said, but you also found ways to kind of repeat the same success that you had with emotion, uh, without going to the country. Yeah. Um, so how would you kind of, uh, summarise?
So it's really just, it's mirroring what you, what happens when you're in a foreign country. And when you're in a foreign country, what you do is you listen to the language, you read the language, uh, you speak with people, you you apply the language. So in, in order to learn a language, a foreign language, you really need to apply it and that starts by by listening to to material, by, um, reading material. And, um, then once you absorb the language, uh, start speaking yourself.
So it's, it's really not a big mystery. It's just, um, like with football, like what how most people learn, uh, languages, it's like in the theory, it's in class. And then, but in football it's so obvious. Everybody knows we're not going to learn football by by being in inside the classroom, but you actually need to play the game and at the beginning, you're going to suck terribly. But the more you do it, the better you get. Everybody did it's so obvious for so many things, for for football, for for driving school. I'm not, I I know I'm not going to drive learn to drive a car in in theory class. Um, so it's so obvious for so many skills, um, but for some reason with languages, it's still, we still use the old ways.
Still tough, yeah. But obviously, the the fact that the schools haven't really caught on to this in the last 100 years is a big reason why, because that's the first and from many people the only experience they have with languages, so it's, it's easy to see how that would happen. But Yeah, yeah.
What what would you do if you were starting out sort of in a in a practical sense, because obviously when you're just starting to learn a language, you don't know anything. So you can't just go up to someone on the street and say, hey, how are you? You know. So what what would be your first steps if you had to learn, I know, Swedish tomorrow or starting tomorrow?
So first you need to get an understanding for the language. I think, um, the input hypothesis by Stephen Krashen puts it very well. It's, uh, you absorb comprehensible input. So it means you you listen to the language, you read the language and you start to understand patterns in the language. Um, so you would start by reading and listening, uh, to really easy texts. And, uh, the more you do that, the more you start to understand and the the more complex the input can get. And, uh, at some point, you're going to have a pretty good understanding for the language.
So I would say, what's important is that it's that you you do it daily. That you learn, that you study, that you listen to a little bit every day, rather than sitting down for three hours on the weekend and and do everything at once. So it's important to interact with the language every day a little bit and that's, that's what the case was for me when I was abroad and that's the case for everybody that goes abroad. You you interact with the language every day, even if it's only a few minutes.
And, um, yeah, so you start understanding the language better and you start to get a better understanding and grammar and vocabulary definitely helps. It's, it's something that can, um, make the process quicker, because you probably need to hear a word 20 times or even more, uh, until you can remember it. Or you need to use it a lot of times and if you study vocabulary, you can shortcut the process. So that's the advantage we have as adults, but it's not it doesn't work the other way around. You're not vocabulary and grammar always has to be something that that's that's helped, that's, uh, that surrounds language learning. But the main focus should always be, uh, input and output. First listen to it, first read it, uh, get a good understanding and then start speaking yourself. Get corrected, um, hear more, uh, speak more, look up words that you don't know.
And I think the second mistake that most people do is, um, they try, they have a holistic approach to language learning, which means, um, they have language X, so let's say Swedish, and, um, they need to learn the whole language. They need to know every word, they need to speak perfectly, they need to have no accent. And this is a huge project. This is a project that can take years or even decades. And the the interesting thing is that's not even necessary. Like why would I need to learn about politics if I speak about politics maybe once every two years in my native language?
Right.
So, uh, you don't need to learn everything at the same time. You just learn what's relevant for you at that point. So I always compare a business learner to a beach learner. Why would they be in the same class? And they usually are.
Right.
One person needs to learn more about negotiations and the other person needs to learn about small talk at the beach or speaking to people about daily topics. And so what's important is to to learn with materials and learn about content that's that's really relevant to you and that's how you're going to learn much quicker than if you try to learn everything at once.
Yeah. And I also think there's a there's a big fear in people, uh, about perfectionism, really, where they don't want to book like a lesson with a tutor early on because they're afraid they won't be able to say anything or that they make too many mistakes or, you know, you don't go up to people and and talk to them if you know they speak the language. So that's another point that you're always going to be, you know, you're never going to be perfect in language.
No.
So just use it wherever you can and and do and and what I will say and what I often tell a lot of people who are not in sort of the polyglot community and don't listen to this podcast necessarily, um, because people always ask me if I'm, if I tell them what I do, they always like, oh, wow, how does this work? And then they there's this thing they always say, I don't know if you get this as well, is, I wish I could learn insert language here. I always get this from people. And I say, well, why don't you just learn a little bit and just get started, you know?
Because for me, the enjoyment is like from day one. If you can say hi to someone in, in your target language, just watch them smile. You know, if somebody speaks Danish to me, you know, that's kind of a rare language to learn for many people. It's hilarious. It it literally makes my day. And then they go around butchering it for an hour and I'm like, okay, this is enough. But you know. Yeah. Um, so I would really encourage people just to get started and sort of do what you can early on.
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I think what's important is to reframe here, because people think they start learning a language, um, they learn, I don't know, hundreds or thousands of hours, and at some point they know the language. And that's the first second that the language is actually useful for them. So all it's like thousands or hundreds of hours of pain, and then the time comes and now suddenly you know the language and now suddenly it becomes useful. And that's why also people most people stop because, uh, it's just too much work. It's, it's there it's not as important for it, it's not that important for them that they're willing to invest as much time.
Right.
So what you need to reframe the whole thing, you need to realise, like you said, you can have a use out of a language from the very beginning. If you, uh, maybe learn only the most important words, you can start at least pretending at the like, at least saying hello or how are you. And then you can start, um, maybe writing to people and get enjoyment out of that or maybe reading to your favorite book or watching a show. But you can get, you can get something out of a language, out of knowing a language much very a lot of a long time before you actually know it's very well.
Yeah.
I I would agree with that. And a good example of this is if people want to see how you can sort of go out and use very limited language ability, uh, check out Moses McCormick on YouTube. Uh, you know, he's a he's a he's a real character. Let's put it that way. He he has his his his quirks, but but the way he learns, he has a he has this script. Uh, he's figured out, basically, every time he talks to people in their language, they always ask him like the same five questions. Yeah. So he was like, okay, what if I just learned these five questions for 60 languages and go around filming myself doing it?
And and then slowly he adds more and more to each language, but of course if you learn 60 languages, it's going to be kind of a a slow upgrade. But anyway, the the point is, go into, uh, let's say a a Korean deli or something and say, and use those five sentences and understand the responses as well. You see the people he interacts with that it just, they just light up, they just makes their day. Um, and I think it's a, it's a wonderful, wonderful symbolism of of what you can, kind of the joy you can spread with with this kind of basic manuscript. Like how how long would it take you to memorise five questions and five answers, you know?
No, no. But what I think is also important with that is, because you said that people say they would like to learn and certain language here, um, is that you really need to make sure that you want to learn this language, because many people say they want to learn a language. Of course, if they can download it on a disc inserted into their head, um, that everybody would like to to learn that language, but, yeah. With language learning, there is always an effort. And, uh, a time commitment and an effort and you need to make sure that you're willing that that the reasons behind learning the language or that your motivation is big enough to invest that time and effort, because, um, I mean, I would love to play piano and to play guitar and, um, I don't know, to to run a marathon, but I have limited time and I have limited, um, effort resources that I can invest.
And so I need to make sure that before I learn any new skill that I'm willing to invest that. And if I if if people tell me, oh, it would be so nice to speak, I don't know, Danish or whatever, then I'm almost in every case, I know that those people are or the person with that attitude at that time is not going to be successful learning this language because the the reasons behind learning it or the motivation for it is just not big enough. Yeah.
And I think in that case it doesn't even make sense to start, because, uh, it takes a few weeks and and then you're going to be discouraged and then you're going to be, okay, this is not for me, I can't learn languages and then you're going to ruin it for for yourself for other languages maybe even. So I think if you want to learn a language, you need to you need to make sure that you really want to learn it and that you really have a use out of it, because having one more language on your CV or, um, thinking it's cool to have another language under your belt, I think that's not going to cut it. And, uh, I know that from experience, because I also failed, uh, learning languages and I realised I failed because it was just not relevant enough for me. It was the the the effort and the time wasn't worth it for me to learn that language.
Right. Yes, a massive time commitment. Yeah. I I think with a lot of people wish for things, like I wish I could work from home, I wish I could be, uh, fit, you know, I wish I could learn French. And a lot of times, it's just that, it's just wishing, you know, I wish. Um, but I think, I think getting started and maybe listening to some of the success stories, reading some of the blogs to see how other people did it, you know, an an episode like this, for instance, and getting started can reveal or uncover whether you actually do want it or not.
Yeah, that's true.
So for me, if somebody spends, let's say, a couple weeks, a couple months learning French after, you know, after I encourage them to listen to this episode first. And after a few months, they're like, you know what, it's not for me, I can't be bothered and they quit it. At least they tried and I think they are informed enough to know that they didn't, you know, they didn't ruin language learning forever for them if they do want to learn something later on that is more relevant. Yeah. But they've given it a good try and and so for me that's not failing.
And also you do learn something along the way. So if you do go to, let's say, France, because that was the example, and you can order a croissant or a coffee or something, um, then go for it. I I think it's fun. Except if you're a little in a little mountain town in Southern France and you try to use your school French to order a a croissant and you get corrected by the 12-year-old, uh, baker's daughter for not having the correct pronunciation. Yeah. Which happened to me. Um, yeah, that was kind of brutal. But, uh, I guess they weren't used to tourists down there, so, uh, that was, uh, yeah, that was interesting. They're not the most, uh, what should I say, encouraging experience.
No, no.
Just, uh, be told off by a a teenager that you're, uh, the way you said croissant is, uh, pathetic. Um, but, uh, luckily most, most, uh, native speakers I think are very encouraging and, uh, as long as you don't inconvenience them too much, then most will be very happy to hear. I certainly had good experiences in in Hungary when I was living there, using some very basic Hungarian and and, um, I think it's important to kind of don't take yourself too seriously as well in that situation.
And it goes back to the perfectionism a little bit, but if you smile and, like, for instance, that croissant experience wasn't very nice at the time, but I would have smiled at it today because I realised that, you know what, I haven't really spent that much time learning this language, so I can't expect them to just fully, you know, accept my broken French. Um, of course, I'd love to see more encouragement in general, but now I when I, when it happens, I just think it's hilarious. If I make a mistake or if I say like the wrong word or, you know, if the, if the people behind the counter start smiling or giggling or something, I just think it's fun. I I don't see it as like a character flaw or something of myself. Um, so I think that's important to put out there as well, especially for the people who might be a little bit, uh, shy or introverted or or both, is that it can be, it can be kind of daunting sometimes to put yourself out there and try and speak when you know you're terrible.
Yeah. But it I I think there's ways around that. I, um, I think that's one of the biggest problems why people don't progress forward, because they're afraid of, um, of making mistakes and then other people laughing at them. And I think and there are a lot of ways around that. You don't need to throw yourself into into the water, um, to in order to learn that language. There's lots of of steps that you can take in between.
So for instance, if you want to start speaking, you don't need to start by speaking to a real native speaker somewhere in the streets of Paris. You can start by writing, um, in order to get your thoughts, um, to to sort your thoughts and have a little bit more time and then you can continue with, um, with voice messages. So you can record 10-second voice messages, get it and get a 10-second voice message back from a from a native speaker. And then you start with 20-seconds voice messages and then maybe you start with speaking for a minute and, uh, you always do that with with a language teacher that has understands that you're learning a language.
And, uh, you continue with that and then you speak more and only once you feel comfortable, you start speaking to actual native speakers on the streets. Um, this way you're always comfortable, you're always taking small steps. It's important to continue, I think. It's you can't, you can't be like for two years, uh, sending voice messages back and forth. At some point, you need to take the next step, but the next step doesn't need to be huge, because, uh, being in the classroom and learning a language in the classroom and then suddenly speaking to your native speaker, uh, in the country is a huge step and people think that they need to take that huge, uh, step, but they don't. You you just go by small steps.
Right. And how how can you give some examples of of of your trips abroad and and how you accomplished that? Because to me that's a little bit like being dumped in the middle of the place. Did you have advanced warning? Did you prepare before you left or or did you start when you when you got there?
I think I had the advantage of, um, going to Australia when I was 16 years old and, um, I was still at an age where I didn't, I I didn't really care or I didn't, I I think I didn't have really have the problem and and now I don't really care if I make mistakes or not. I think most people, especially people that learn the language at an at a more advanced age, they don't have that luxury. So I I can't really compare my situation, because I would just if if I learn a language, I'll just put myself out there and, um, I wouldn't really care and I know how to react to that.
So I think I I can't really compare it to my situation, but I think what I know is what works is to to take small steps, to take the next comfortable, logical step. And so to to I don't think it it makes sense for somebody who learns a language for the first time, um, to say, okay, today I'm learning French and go to France the next day, unless they unless they feel super comfortable with with that with what they're going to get by not understanding anything and, uh, um, so I think it makes more sense to prepare in advance, to start with material that is really easy, um, to start in a more secured environment, Yeah. until you feel comfortable enough and then only put yourself out there.
But that's a good good you said that as well, because a lot of people that I know, the if I talk to them about learning a language, they will at some point say, well, you just have to move there, right? You know, like it's automatic that if you move to a foreign country, you just kind of you just get the language without work. So, you know, sort of, uh, talking about preparation and and and as you said, stepping it up. So you start with the easiest stuff first and something that isn't as, uh, testing for the speaker like messages, for instance, you can use a lot of Google Translate in the beginning if you don't know anything and just send those messages with a couple of minutes delay. So you understand what's happening. Yeah. That's a really good way to start, but a lot of people, I think, would not even think about that because they think, oh, you just move to the country and then you learn the language automatically. Yeah. That's not, it doesn't happen at all.
I mean, I was in Hungary for, I think a year before I I I realised that, okay, I know nothing of this language. You know, I could say, you know, uh, beer and and wine and and can I have please, but it didn't come to me at all. I I really had to work for it. And and yeah. And I just, and actually, I don't know how you feel, but I felt bigger pressure being in the country learning it than I did learning Russian in Denmark, because it was it was just like this idea of you should go out there and and, you know, suck up the language somehow. And there was just no real way to do that, whereas in Denmark I could sit at home, I could formulate a real strategy, I could use resources, I could use Skype lessons and stuff. But in Hungary, it was just sort of, oh yeah, you'll learn it, just go outside the door and you'll hear it and magically internalise it. Yeah.
There's two different ways to to learn a language when you're abroad. Or there's two different there's reasons why why a group of people learns the language when they're abroad and another group of people doesn't. Um, we think that if we go abroad, we are forced to use the language, which is only true in some cases. It was true for me when I went to Australia. I was in an Australian host family. They spoke English to me. I was in uh, in an Australian school. They spoke English to me. Everybody would speak English to me. I had no choice. I was really like the only choice I would have is to shut myself out of everything. And, um, maybe that happens to some people, but most people don't. So you start, you there is a huge pressure at the beginning, but you you don't have a choice. So you at some point, you you start learning the language.
Um, what's different is if you go to a country just like that. So you just say, okay, I'm going to move there. And then, but you have still have the choice to function in another language. And that's what happens. Uh, I see, for instance, in Germany, there's a lot of people coming to Germany, being here for many years and never learning the language because they can function in English or in another language. They can have friends that speak their native language or that speak English. They can have a workplace where they're not forced to speak German. They can have they have the option. They can say, okay, I'm I'm going to have the German context or not. And if you have the option, um, and you're not as in advanced as advanced with language learning and you don't this is the first time really that you're trying to learn a language effectively, then usually people go for the easier route and start building up a a bubble around them where they don't have to even, uh, speak or listen to the language. And that's why people don't learn when they're abroad.
So if you go abroad, um, either you you put yourself in a situation where you have no other choice, like I, uh, had no other choice when I was in Australia. I had a choice when I was in France. But by that time, I I forced myself to have everything in French in in French. So, um, either you go once you have no choice and usually only have that when you're like a teenager in high school or something. At some point, like when you go for for a job, then I mean, nobody, even though you might be super skilled in something, uh, if you don't know the language, like, let's say you're an engineer, um, nobody in Hungary is going to hire you in an Hungarian team, even if you're the best at engineering, if you can't even speak to the other people. So usually you will have you will have like a hack. You you will you will you will be your daily life will be a different language than than the language of the country.
So either you you you put yourself in a position where you're forced and usually, as I said, that only works when you're a teenager, like like in high school. Um, or if you move with your parents, or you you force yourself into into the into that language. So if you go to Hungary, you force yourself to only speak to Hungarians, to to do everything in Hungarian. And that only works if your level of the language is high enough. So that's why it doesn't make sense to go right away to another to a foreign country and and stay there. Uh, you're not going to learn language because it's it's the the the step, the the the barrier is too high and you're always going to cheat out and go go with with the easier route with your native language or with English.
Yeah. So how do I know when my language is good enough to, uh, to go away? What do you say?
I think it's, it's difficult to say, but, um, you got to make sure that you're comfortable with with having everything in that language. I mean, like if you go to Hungary and you want to learn Hungarian by being in that country, you you have to force yourself to not speak Danish or English at all. So you have to make sure you go to Hungarian meetups, you meet up with Hungarian people, you speak with Hungarians and you're not going to, um, and promise yourself that you're not going to cheat.
Because when I went to France, my French wasn't really great. Um, and I was in so many uncomfortable situations, but I put myself there because I knew that if I'm not going to put myself in these situations where people talk to me and I'm I I I know exactly how to pretend that I understand that that I that I understood what what the person was saying, even though I had no idea what was going on. And I learned that skill because I put myself in a situation where I had no other choice. And, um, so if you go to to a foreign country and to learn a language, you you got to make sure that you're comfortable with putting yourself in that position and not, um, cheating, uh, by meeting up with other tourists or other foreigners, but, uh, you got to be committed to work to live the life of of a native person.
Right. So it's it's kind of a, it's kind of a good level to have, I would say. That that it it sounds quite high compared to what a lot of people would would guess that you need to to go abroad.
If yeah, if you want to get the full-fledged experience, like that's how you learn like on steroids, like that that's the fastest way to learn. I mean, you you can go way before that and you don't have to do everything in that language. Uh, I mean, it's it's fine if you go once a week or a few times a week to a language meetup. Um, but if you do that, you're not going to learn the language much quicker than you can do the same thing in your in your native country.
So, um, I mean, the the question is, out of every minute that you learn the language, or that you spend with the language, how much are you going to get out of it? Like how are you going to be the most effective? So the most effective you're going to be if you function completely in the language and you can only do that at a certain level. And the lower your level, the less options you have with the language. So I think it does make sense to go to a country way before you're at that level, but it does just doesn't make sense, um, don't expect that suddenly in a few weeks you're going to be a master of that language.
Don't expect miracles. I think that's a that's a that's a good tip. And also something that I I deducted from what you said is also that it gets, uh, I don't know if I want to use the word easier, but the more languages you learn, the experience helps you to to learn the next one easier. Yeah. Um, and that's also something that beginners don't really know much about. So, if you do want to learn a couple languages in, you know, it takes time, of course, but always, uh, always good to know that it gets easier in that sense when you start to understand what words are important, what what areas to focus on first and and, uh, just the experience in itself, the confidence that you can actually do it is is going to make a big difference. And, uh, cognates, I guess also, uh, worth mentioning that there are so many shared vocabulary, uh, across the the languages that for every language you learn, you probably get thousands of of free vocabulary from from around the world.
Yeah. Language learning is a skill. It's it's really, it really is a skill and if you learn your first language, you have to learn two things at the same time, the language and how to learn the language. And, uh, once you've learned a few languages, you acquire the skill of learning a new language and that's why it gets easier.
Yeah. Well, that's a really good point. Actually, I don't I haven't seen that mentioned too many places. I think that's it's because it's a natural thing as well. Like learning your first language is a completely natural, or first few languages, even if you're brought up multilingual. Uh, that's a completely natural experience. You don't even have to think about it. Yeah.
But if you're an adult or, you know, old enough to understand what I'm saying, then it's not, it's it's very intentional. It's completely you have to organise everything, you have to find all the materials, you have to very intentionally put time aside to do it. Um, so I really I really appreciate that comment as well about how is it a skill because it it really is and I I'm not great at it, but there are lots of people who've been on the podcast who, uh, who are luckily. So, uh, we can deduct all the the strategies and and secrets if there are any secrets. I mean, it's pretty, language learning is pretty simple. It's just not easy.
Yeah. I think the the problem with, um, with the person that learns a language for the first time is that you know where you are now, and you know where you want to be, but the path is really dark. You have no idea what how to what to do to get to to your goal. If you learn languages, then the path is not dark anymore. You know the steps you need to take, you know exactly what you need to do, and you know that if somebody tells you that you pronounce baguette wrong, that, um, that's not failure, but that's actually it's it's a necessary step, um, on the way to to your goal. So that's the advantage. Once you know how to learn a language, uh, being discouraged is much more difficult because you know that's all part of the process.
Yeah. And that's, I guess, where podcasts like my own come in, uh, you know, to get people who haven't had that personal success to derive it from others, basically, just to like, uh, is it lend some motivation to people who who don't have it. And I know you interviewed a lot of people as well, uh, in, uh, on on your Sprachheld YouTube channel. Um, and, um, I was also on there. So including you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the best episode. Clearly. I mean, clearly.
Um, but, uh, actually funny story about that, um, you remember what happened when we started the Skype call that day. Yeah. You were you weren't expecting that we would speak German. Well, that was one thing. I want to say, um, you know, my German is questionable at best. Uh, it's a language that I've spent the most time on outside Danish and English. So I've sort of learned it just by brute force. That just like the the amount of hours I've had in German is second to none. Like I I I'm 100% sure I've had more German than English almost. But anyway, so but I haven't actually gone to Germany that often. I haven't had many German-speaking friends that I could activate it in a natural way. So the German that I know is just basically fragments of all these class hours.
Um, but anyway, that the real confusion was because we agreed to do a podcast interview, uh, when we met and I thought it was going to be for Actual Fluency, because I didn't even know you did a podcast as well at the time. So, uh, when we started, I was going to do the introduction and everything and you were like, wait, what are you doing? I was like, um, what do you mean? And you explained it. I was like, oh, okay. And it it took us a few years to to do the reverse. What when was that like two years ago?
No, no, it was before that.
Eight. Uh, anyway, it was a a long time ago. And, uh, so, not only were we doing we were doing a podcast for that was for a different show, not not the Actual Fluency podcast. But it was it was in a different language. And you were you were extremely kind. You were like, you know, we can do it in English if you're if you're not okay with it because I hadn't prepared at all and not that I would need or or probably would have anyway if I had known. But it was very nice of you to say like, uh, bail me out, you know, of if there was any, uh, like question.
But it it we managed to speak for an hour and I think most of what we talked about made sense. Um, and it was fun for me to, uh, to kind of show the level, because a lot of the time you hear people say, uh, what languages do you speak? And then they say I speak these languages. And if you speak to a polyglot, they always say in different levels or in varying degrees or in all these things. But now I actually have a video of an hour where I can say, this is how good I speak German or spoke, uh, I guess, uh, two years ago or something. Um, so for me that was also kind of fun to see the extent of it because you don't always, I I certainly don't use German very often at all. So, it might be even worse now, but I just thought I'd share that story because it's it's really funny and, uh, and and if people are interested, you know, search for Sprachheld on YouTube and, uh, you'll find the hour that that we had. Um, I don't know if the confusion is in, you probably edited that out, but, uh, Yeah.
No, no, it's not. I didn't start the recording until until you knew everything was settled.
You should have had like an outtake or something that could have. But, um, but Gabriel, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the show and, uh, thank you for taking the time out of your weekend to to come be with us and share some strategies for learning languages. I love these kind of, um, really actionable episodes, you know, we talked very specifically today about techniques and methods. Sometimes the episodes are a little bit, uh, let's say theoretical to use a a term. And today I I really think that people got a lot out of it. So, so thank you for that.
I I hope so because I I I'm always afraid that coming onto your show, there's probably everything has been said at least 20 times.
Well, when when you said earlier, you said you need to listen to a word 22 times or something. So, we need to say it a few more times. Um, but, uh, but yeah, that's the the the difficulty. Um, I wonder how people do like weight loss podcasts. Because you eat less and exercise more. Episode episode done. That's true. Anyway, maybe I should look that up.
But, um, but anyway, so, um, where's the best place for people to find you? Uh, do you have any upcoming, um, yeah, where can people get in touch if they have any questions about Sprachheld or your courses or whatever you want to ask you?
Yeah, that's true.
That's true. Anyway, maybe I should look that up. But, um, but anyway, so, um, where's the best place for people to find you? Uh, do you have any upcoming, um, yeah, where can people get in touch if they have any questions about Sprachheld or your courses or whatever you want to ask you?
So Sprachheld.de is is the website. Like I said, or like you said, it's everything is in German. Uh, so I'm sorry about that.
Good for learning. Good for learning. I think good for learning.
Um, I originally it was meant for people for German speakers to learn foreign languages. But now I have about 50% of German learners.
Oh, right.
Are on this site learning German. So, yeah, that's that's the best resource and getting in touch. Um, Gabriel@Sprachheld.de or any other channel that's that's on the website.
Fantastic. And you have been known to make appearances at the various events around the world. So people can come up and say hi to you there as well.
Yeah, at the polyglot gathering, for instance. Are you going to be there as well?
Oh yeah, for sure, yeah. For me it's the the the best event and I really encourage people to go every year. It's going to be interesting to see where they go next year. And, yeah. Some secret location that is yet to be disclosed. Yeah. But, um, I'll see you very soon and, uh, thank you again for coming on the show.
My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.
No problem. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Actual Fluency Podcast. I really appreciate having you here today. Just before you leave, I just want to give a quick shout out to today's sponsor, which is iTalki. iTalki is a tutoring platform where you can find affordable tutors for every language in the world pretty much. So, get started today and get a free $10 credit when you book your first lesson. If you go to actualfluency.com/italki, that's spelled i t a l k i. So, give it a go and feel how tutoring can really boost and enhance your language learning.