Ekaterina Matveeva: Language Alter Ego and Cultural Intelligence
Kris Broholm interviews Ekaterina Matveeva about her book "Language Alter Ego," exploring how cultural identity influences language learning. They also discuss Ekaterina's personal language journey, her upbringing, and how she became a polyglot.
October 7, 2019 · 1 hr 7 min
EP 166: Ekaterina Matveeva: Language Alter Ego and Cultural Intelligence
0:00 / 1:07:08
Guest
Ekaterina Matveeva
What You'll Hear
- 1 Welcome: Language Alter Ego & Mystery Guest
- 2 Early Life, Name Variations & Language Roots
- 3 Linguistics, Immersion & 12-Week B1 Method
- 4 From Memory Sport to Award-Winning Startup
- 5 Learning Multiple Languages: Necessity and Strategy
- 6 Embracing a New Persona for Fluency
- 7 Identity, Personality & Assimilation: A Deep Dive
- 8 Future Projects & Connect with the Guest
Links Mentioned
Questions Covered in the Show
How did Ekaterina Matveeva start learning languages?- 7m
What are the key elements of Ekaterina Matveeva's language learning method?- 20m
Is it beneficial to learn multiple languages simultaneously?- 30m
Should language learners exaggerate pronunciation and gestures when starting a new language?- 36m
What is a 'language alter ego'?- 38m
What is the difference between linguistic personality and identity?- 44m
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Welcome to the Actual Fluency Podcast. Each week you'll find inspirational, motivational interviews with some of the world's best language learners, industry experts, all trying to help you to learn foreign languages better, faster and more efficiently. And here we go. If you're looking for a language teacher to enhance your language learning, then I highly recommend Italki. Italki is the world's biggest tutoring platform and you can find thousands of teachers and tutors at very reasonable prices. Get a free lesson after completing your first lesson by going to languageteacher.co.
Hello and welcome to episode 166 of the Actual Fluency Podcast. This is Kris, uh, your host. I'm really happy to welcome you here and thank you so much for tuning in and listening to this episode. Today, I'm talking about the language alter ego and how our cultural identity shapes our language learning or is it vice versa? That that's what I'm going to talk with my special guest today. We also going to talk about her language upbringing, her language learning, how she became a polyglot and the reason I'm not naming her name is is a, there's a special reason for that, which I normally do at this time. Uh so you'll hear about that when the episode starts.
But in the meantime, I'm just going to say this is one of the most impressive guests I've ever had on. Her achievements are really long and she's not she's quite young still. So, um, you know, from founding her own company to becoming some of the hottest startups in the world, uh a TEDx speaker, memory athlete, um linguist by uh schooling. So, there's a a long list here, but the main reason that we're talking about language alter ego today is because she published a book on on the subject. So if you are interested in that, go to Amazon, type in language alter ego, you should find the book there.
Before that, let me just take a quick second to just have a little update here, what's going on, what's new and yeah, what what's happening? The Actual Fluency Podcast is still going strong, 166 episodes. And I've kind of made a pledge to at least get to 200 episodes. And it's not because it's a stretch or anything, there's loads of interesting people out there to interview, lots of topics still to cover. But as I've mentioned before, I don't want to do it just to do it, you know, there needs to be kind of a point with it. So, the messages and emails I get from from readers and and listeners of the podcast really help me to understand what you guys are looking for, what is it that you like about the interviews, uh what can I do more of, what should I do less of. Uh all that kind of stuff really helps me, so uh thank you to those who who send those messages. And you know, if you haven't sent me a message yet, you're more than welcome to. I love getting messages. Kris at actual fluency.com.
And uh what else is new? Yeah, I'm going to a podcasting conference in Boston, actually the day after this airs. And uh it's called Sound Education. And I'm going to be on a panel with a few other podcasters like the Duolingo Podcast and the Coffee Break series, News and Slow Spanish, and we're going to talk about the role of language learning podcasts in uh language learning. So that's going to be exciting. And I'm looking forward to also seeing Boston again, which I think is a complete it's a very nice town, or city rather. I was there a few years ago and um I really enjoyed my time there. I think the kind of area around Harvard Square is absolutely beautiful and it's obviously a very um let's say a foodie friendly city, so uh looking forward to going back there and and having a good time doing some networking, talking to some fellow podcasters and maybe getting some tips for how I can improve this podcast. So if any of you are in Boston and you're listening to this uh as it uh as it goes out on on uh Monday the uh the 7th of October, do uh do reach out, maybe we can meet up for a beer or something. But uh in the meantime, enjoy this episode about language alter ego and cultural identities.
Welcome to the show.
Mystery guest. I just asked you if I should introduce you as Ekaterina or Kate, and you said you had a a story to tell about that. So, let's start with that.
(vocalizing) Hi, Kris. Thank you so much for inviting me. That's an honor indeed. Like, it's really cool what you're doing and I believe that this gathering of all the materials here and stories are like fascinating, especially the stories, right? Because what could be more interesting than, well, a story, yeah.
Um, yeah, you're right, like, like it it it creates confusion, yeah, how to introduce me. So, officially, so the name is like the brand is, um, Ekaterina Matveeva. Um, however, depending on the language, I prefer a local version of my name. Like, for example, even like at this very moment, um, I'm in Senegal. I just got from Gambia, and here, I started picking up a bit of Wolof, local language. And I already got my local name, like the version of Ekaterina, uh, Kate is Kadi.
So, uh, when we speak in English, Kate or Catherine, the most appropriate and I'm used to Kate. I don't know like since I've been probably seven or eight. Therefore, when somebody addresses me Kate, I automatically switch to English. And like, in French, that would be Catherine, yeah, in Spanish, Portuguese, Katarina, Catalina, and Italian, Katarina, yeah. So like, um, in Polish, Kasia, yeah, Katarzyna. So, in Russian, like, Katya, yeah, so, like, uh, in Chinese, it's always like, yeah, plain it out, like with sounds, like, "Katrina," you know, like, 'cause like, no "L" and no "R," yeah. So, um, it's quite fascinating. Like, in Farsi,
Wow, yeah, and and we'll get into this topic of uh kind of language alter egos and but I just want to um just insert my own experience with that, because I had exactly the same. Uh my name is spelled with a K and double F. So, you know, in in English, when you say Christopher, they always expect it to be C and PH. So, when I was starting out and I said and people said what's your name? I said, oh, I'm Kris. They all write to me with CH. And nobody would call me Christopher, because in English, you know, how it is, everyone abbreviates every name if possible. Um, so for a while online, I was actually known as CHRIS in the English world and KRISTOFFER in the Danish world. Uh kind of living a double life, which I eventually uh kind of merged together, but uh we'll get into all that in in a bit, but but tell us how you got started in in language learning. When did you get that hobby? How did you get into that uh uh niche?
Uh, pretty much, um, one of my professions, um, well, I'm a linguist. So, this kind of already, you know, logic. So, linguistics, yeah, and languages. However, I should say that my language journey started like the way before, you know, I was born, because, um, my family is quite a mix. So, for my mother's side, my grandma and all her family comes from Poland. And my grandpa, my father's father, uh, is coming from Greece, like Greek roots. And, um, my parents happen to grow up in Mongolia. They didn't know each other, but they actually started school in Mongolia. Like, uh, it happens so, as Soviet Union was developing, uh, that region, and Mongolia is located between Soviet Union and China. So, my grandparents on both sides, uh, were sent to develop the economy, and like the industry in Mongolia. So, my parents went as well. Anyway, so they were kind of strangers, yeah, from country. And when they got back to Soviet Union, so, they met, and then Soviet Union, fell, and I was born. And it was a havoc. So, I grew up, like, during civil war, basically.
Because we kind of we stayed in Moscow, but then later, so it was Warsaw, so, yeah, kind of Poland, right? So, I was exposed to some Polish. And my grandpa, uh, while fighting in the World War II, liberated Warsaw. And, uh, so we talked a lot about it and histories, but I didn't speak like, you know, Polish, Polish. I spoke like, Russian, a little bit, you know, Polish. And then I started picking up English, probably like when I was seven or eight, somewhere there. And, and probably as well, a little bit of Spanish in some in some summer camp. And, um, yeah, I mean, um, there was like no, let's say, no expectations, yeah, about languages, because at time, I was professionally dealing with, um, my sport career, like, I was in synchronized swimming. And sport was like everything, and then theater became everything.
And, um, later, when I indeed I got involved a lot into theater, during my like, um, teenage years, um, I started going more and more like abroad, like, you know, during summer period time, like holidays. And, um, I went on a like, Europe trip. Uh, which included like France, Netherlands, you know, Belgium, even like two weeks living in family in London. And I believe that that particular trip, um, kind of changed my perception, 'cause at time, I was 15. So, theater studio, like, uh, acting, uh, preparing for universities, uh, still like no clue where to go, what to do, suffering pretty much from studying languages. Because, um, all this um, like post-Soviet system was really outdated and it was like, not just stick and a carrot, but stick.
And when I was a four-years-old kid, actually, I didn't go to kindergarten. I went to, well, I was sent to, um, like a specialized school, like in a gymnasium type, yeah, specialized German school. And, uh, I mean like now I'm laughing, but honestly, like, I was tortured there, like, you know, I was yelled at like, um, "Das ist Kat," you know, to learn German, and, uh, that really traumatized me, like, and I couldn't bear like even like, you know, sound of German for many years. Yeah.
So, anyway, it's like, so when I went on that Euro trip, around like 15, yeah, 15, yeah, 15, um, I felt that I was limited by my kind of like two and a half languages. Because, uh, I was at that time like Russian, English, part of Polish, yeah, when we were in Poland, I was picking up, yeah, very quickly, 'cause, uh, some of you know, sounds were familiar, words were familiar. But, when we were in France, for example, yeah, on the Netherlands, yeah, like, it was just impossible. Like when we were in France in hotel, we needed like, you know, hot water, like, for instance, noodles, and we're going to reception. We are like, "Asking, do you speak English?" The person says, "Yes." And then when we start explaining him what we need, he just says, "Yes." That's the level of English, you know, in France at that time. So, yeah, so we felt really, you know, kind of limited.
And then, um, when I had a chance to get immersed into culture, especially in London, yeah, while living in family, I just realized that I want it to bring change to education. And what I mean by it is I kind of experienced it with my own skin, all these horrors, yeah, of education, where you're terrified, uh, making mistakes, yeah, like, when you develop this type of like psychological trauma, complex of being the best in the classroom, yeah, otherwise you're not loved and all this. Yeah, I just like, I felt like, "No, I need to change it."
And, uh, you know, surprisingly, that winter, after that trip, I started kind of like dawning on me, you know, like, it dawned on me. Um, I started dreaming. Like, literally, I started dreaming, and it was again like four years old. What I mean by it that I could see, like, you know, like, visions. How in the future, when I would be like, 30 something, I would have a school. And this school would provide not just like grammar, yeah, like speaking, like, yeah, read this text, read how. But, proper inclusive education about culture, history, geography, like, art, yeah, of particular language. And not talking about like particular country, but actually particular language, including like all the countries that heritage, let's say, that language with their local cultures. And, uh, that was very powerful. And I was like, you know, writing down all these ideas. And and I was like, you know, writing down all these ideas.
And around conflict, like debate with my parents, I wanted to go and, well, continue studying theater and acting. I loved it, but, uh, they kind of, you know, went in the middle of my way, saying like, "No, we don't want our daughter to be an actress." And, um, we compromised, and, uh, eventually, I ended up in Linguistic University, which was not bad, uh, comparing as well to other choices, 'cause there were like, um, universities of International Affairs and all that, but, uh, linguistics was good 'cause I ended up in, um, Theory and Practice of Foreign Languages and Cultures. Where I discovered the history of linguistics and intercultural communication. That completely, you know, carried me away. And what carried me away was Sapir-Whorf and relative linguistics. And I loved it so much that I was trying to, well, develop further on the theory that I stumbled upon, um, about these linguistic personalities.
And around the same time, uh, we were given our second language at the university. And, uh, well, I was lucky enough to get Spanish 'cause there were like three languages, Spanish, uh, French and German. And I was praying not to get German. I was praying. I was I was like, so determined, you know, that if I were given German, yeah, I was like, okay, I would just change my, you know, study group. So, yeah, yeah, I'm not kidding. So,
still had those nightmares from back in the childhood?
Yeah, that time, yes. But, like, funnily enough, I think, um, a year after, so, there was a festival of foreign languages. And, uh, there was like a week of the German language or something very similar. So, I happened to be in a, like, you know, cinema, right? And we were watching what was that? It was one of the movies with Til Schweiger, and I know that the Germans kind of like, debate here, right? But, uh, I watched it in German with like, German, English subtitles. And for the first time, I was like, hmm, German is not that bad. And that's when I started coming back to German. But that's like, you know, it's it's like the whole way, yeah, like, it's a way of, I don't know, 17, 18 years.
But anyway, yeah, so with Spanish, it was pretty quick. And, uh, I think that, uh, as well after studying the Latin, I mean, the Latin language, yeah, it was very easy. Like, with English, with Spanish. And Spanish, God, it grew on me so fast, and, uh, I believe in a semester, I was already intermediate, like, around intermediate from complete zero. Uh, which was not, of course, yeah, complete zero, given Latin and English. But anyways, uh, at that time, I got the vision that, all right, I need to go somewhere in Spain, and, um, well, help my brain, yeah, to create all these neural networks and really, like, get really good, yeah, in Spanish. And then, the plan was, like, to do the same with Italian, but just on my own.
And eventually, as at the end of my second year, so, I went to Spain, to Salamanca. And that was just fascinating. Because, uh, for the first time, it was my first trip, I was 18, it was my first trip alone, completely alone, being there, and just using my, like, kind of, you know, heritage from theater, yeah, from all this practices. I was there, like, imitating the locals. I was like, learning like, you know, fully immersed into Spanish culture, imitating everything. Habits, uh, body language, everything like what I learned in theory about intercultural communication. And I loved it, because by the by the end of the stay of like, of my trip, I was just referred, you know, this Katrina de Salamanca, you know, like, so already, you know, local local person. That was amazing.
And when I got back, I decided to do something very similar with Italian. But, uh, Italian, I decided to pick myself. And, uh, that was a moment when I started developing the methodology. Because I took the best from the ways I was taught or I was learning English, Spanish, then as well, Polish, right? And I started mixing it all up, coming up with something, you know, that would suit me. And, uh, eventually, with Italian, um, I think I started working it like the end of February, March. And by June, I was already mixing Spanish and Italian at high level. I mean, like, I was preparing for an exam in Spanish, like, B2, C1. And, uh, I was like, wow, I'm mixing it at this level, and I'm preparing as well for like, summer school, you know, in Italian. So, it resulted like, something between like, three, four months, but like, the idea was that it's like, 12 weeks, yeah, and each week corresponds to particular topic, yeah, both in vocabulary and in grammar. And that's how you cover from zero to B1. At least.
That's pretty quick.
Yeah, that was pretty quick, but given again, given that it's a same, um, um, you know, linguistic group, yeah, so like, for example, Roman, yeah, Roman group. And at the same time, we had a test in Spanish about the future, like, what would you like to to do in the future? What would you like to have? And one of the answers was to speak 10 languages. And this is when I consciously ticked this box. And everybody laughed, and I was like, "Well, you know, now it seems easy, because at that time, I was in this mindset that my, like, my mind and my brain, like, you know, both, like, get together, could do anything." Like, anything. And it worked. 'Cause, uh, I came to Italy and, uh, like, you know, entrance exams, and at the entrance exam, like, spoken entrance exam, I got B2. Very, very good, yeah, B2.
Wow.
I was surprised myself, because I was like, okay, maybe like B1, B1, you know, 2, but no, B2. And, like, writing was a little bit, you know, more confusing, so I had to work more on it, but spoken was really good.
And, uh, then it got even crazier, because I realized that given that I had covered by that time all the university program of like, Spanish, you know, Spanish course. Then Italian, then like, English, or like, uh, history of linguistics was over, I know intercultural communication course was over. And it was kind of transition at the university from kind of bachelor level to master level, but at that time, they still didn't have this graduation. It was like, you know, one kind of specialist program. So, I realized that I didn't want to continue. I wanted to go further. Like, you know, I needed a bigger challenge.
And, surprise, surprise, I got back from Italy, and within a month, I found two scholarships in Poland, in Warsaw and Krakow. And, uh, I just left to study there, like, to continue studying, um, like, same level, but I went for like, uh, let's say, social studies, uh, like, more of sociology, international relations, in order to see how language is used as a tool, you know, in negotiations, let's say, yeah, like, again, like, um, education, like, international education, a bit of politics. And, uh, I loved it. I loved it.
And simultaneously with that, I needed again a bigger challenge. And I was like, you know, I was teaching, I was involved in like, in projects. Uh, like, lots of projects, organization of, um, debating communities, uh, I started, you know, getting to know people organizing like, big events, like, G20. So, I was like, you know, I was involved in a lot of intercultural and international affairs. And then, I I just got into masters, um, like Erasmus Mundus, but not Erasmus Mundus the way how we know it, like, exchange, like, you know, for three months. It was like, a joint master. Uh, combined four masters. So, four universities, four masters, four diplomas.
Wow.
Yeah. And that was quite a challenge as well to get into it. But I was applying like, to a number of universities. I got accepted almost everywhere. And then I had this horrible, you know, kind of like, headache. Oh, which one I choose? And eventually, I opted for this program. And, uh, first I went back to Spain, to Galicia, Santiago de Compostela. And they speak Gallego there. So, it was a chance to kind of pick a little bit of Gallego, and also, I started learning Portuguese there. Because, yeah, Portugal is very close. So, I started learning Portuguese. And it was very confusing when you are in a Gallego speaking country. And Gallego and Portuguese.
Can't imagine.
Yes, yes. So, I was like, oh my God, what am I learning? Portuguese or Gallego? Eventually, yeah, so, Portuguese for me, for the first time, like, when, uh, I I couldn't read it really well because of, yeah, Spanish. Uh, but when I heard it, I felt like it was Polish. Yeah, and like, with Polish, like, honestly, there was no problem, like, you know, to like to like, picking it up, and while I was staying in Warsaw as well, like, studying, I, um, kind of, you know, I dedicated my time to grammar, to writing, yeah. Working it out, uh, because, uh, there are lots of similarities again between like, Russian and Polish, right? Uh, but there are particular thing that could be quite tricky. Anyways, like, so Polish is just like fine, started, you know, influencing it a little bit of Russian in terms of, I would say, kind of outdated words in Russian that are very similar in Polish and in Russian, and I really liked it, because I used it in my poetry.
And anyways, so, with all this like, studying in Spain, like, in Galicia, uh, beautiful place, beautiful country, going more and more into sociolinguistics, sociology, loving it, working in research groups, then going to Italy, to Bergamo, University of Bergamo, again, like, yeah, Italian. There, started like, properly picking up French. Yeah, because then it was as well, um, the like, the said, like, the base, like, the foundation of the program was in France, in Perpignan, yeah. Very close again to Spain. So, yeah, so, anyways, so picking up French. And then going to St. Andrews. And St. Andrews is in Scotland. And I had no idea what was St. Andrews about.
So, like, on all my kind of journey, with all the universities, I was working on sociology, anthropology, sociocultural anthropology, uh, comparative linguistics, uh, international education, uh, like, uh, like, in parallel, I was working in European Commission as a representative of, uh, non, uh, non-European Russian speaking students, working on migration policies, like, until the conflict of 2014, and then organizing European and World debating championships, like, in India, in Malaysia, and like, all, all, all, all, all, and and still like, you know, teaching and figuring out like, what to do, because it was a time when I was finalizing my master's in Scotland. I was like, "Okay, um, I still need to kind of finalize the dissertation or that, but, uh, what am I going to do? Am I going for a PhD straight away or am I am I actually tired of studying, you know, so much?" Yes, I mean, obviously.
And, um, then it, um, like, it just like, came to me that I just found a mentor there, uh, who helped me to figure out a little bit all my projects, 'cause we had a fantastic project on cultural shock with guys from other programs. Um, I was teaching, and, uh, there was a block about opportunities in Europe. And I had it all, you know, at once, like, through projects. And, uh, I was advised to focus on, well, one project. And, uh, first, I I just went for a few, let's say, internships, yeah, and I ended up at Memrise. And I had no idea who, like, what was Memrise, and who was Ed Cook. And, uh, well, thanks to him, I found out about Memrise Sport. And, uh, I think the same month when we met, um, I was already talking to the guy who was responsible for local, like, championships, yeah. And I think in August, I was already at my first, um, memory championship, uh, in London. So, then I got involved into Memrise Sport.
So much stuff to go through, yeah.
Yes, I'm trying like, you know, to to kind of like, yeah, to condense it. But, I should say that, like, after participating in a number of memory competitions, including two World Memory Championships, I can say that, uh, like, this stuff works. Tony Buzan like, created an amazing opportunity for many people, like, young and old, um, to develop their brain. And, uh, well, uh, all these techniques helped to learn languages because, uh, all these associated techniques help me a lot, especially like with Chinese, while I was preparing to go to one of the World Championships. Yeah, all these associations between symbols, right, hieroglyphs, characters, yeah, and sounds. So, it's a lot, yeah, so it's like, about techniques, yeah, referring to techniques, like, what could help.
Yeah, what else do you use for your, like, when you're learning a language if you could sum it up in a sentence or or two like, what are your main key points of your language learning method?
Right. So, I believe, so, it's a lot of psychology. It's we will come to this, yeah, to personalities. But, it's indeed, I'm coming to this, as like, in theater, creating a new personality, creating a new kind of persona, you would say. But, psychology is like, more personality. So, um, I'm looking at it, okay, so, here we're going to have a new person, a new personality. Uh, what does it mean? So, I'm very quick at, let's say, speaking, picking up speaking. So, it means that lots of conversation.
Um, but, at the beginning, how you're going to get to this conversation? You need to study, you need to learn. So, I use texts, um, texts, audios, and then I try, um, writing, like, copying, let's say, um, let's say, text about everyday life, yeah. Um, but, in my own way, yeah, so, let's say, I'm describing my everyday life, copying the grammar constructions, yeah, used in the text. And then I can check check out vocabulary. So, if let's say I'm doing like this for 10, 12 topics, I get already a good number of vocabulary, plus the main grammar constructions. This is kind of, well, fresh and passive.
Then I start working with associations in the context. Yeah, so, I try to use the same words and constructions, phrases, um, in different contexts. And then I ask, I either ask my colleagues from Amalingua, that's from my school, or, um, as well, like, um, I check with other professionals with whom I could practice. Yeah, so, this is kind of going from zero to B1. If we talk about, well, um, Chinese, yeah, like, Mandarin, right, or let's say, Farsi or Arabic, it's slightly different. However, again, speaking is much faster. Like, uh, I believe like, almost everyone, but the majority of people I talked, yeah, say that speaking, yeah, is much easier. Especially if you have a good ear. And, uh, if we talk about, um, like, uh, like, everyday practice, I love changing languages, while, um, like, writing, like, my thoughts down, plans, journaling, yeah, just like diary. Yeah, so, you can find me like, writing in different languages. Yeah.
So it's just a lot of it sounds like you've kind of perfected the uh the smart and hard work at the same time, so it's not uh so it's the most efficient.
Yes, but I think as well, if we talk about this professional way, I'll say that when I started properly working on my project, because, um, so, after this this, uh, Memrise and like, other internships, so, then, uh, this Chinese, yeah, world championship, where I had lots of adventures, where I was almost kidnapped, and I'm not kidding.
Wow.
Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh, like, um, one of Chinese organizations, uh, uh, picked an interest in me, uh, given that they were coming from the northern part of China, Harbin, which is very close to Russia, and it used to be, uh, part of Soviet Union. So, a lot of them speak Russian there. And they noticed that I was like, part of me, yeah, Russian heritage. So, they could practice Russian with me. And then they were interested in all these languages, yeah, and memory techniques, uh, and as they were organizing educational camps at that time, in China, they, of course, needed somebody from the West, because then they could charge more. So, they were trying, you know, literally to kind of put me into the position of an instructor, but, uh, not in a very familiar for the West way. Like, you know, checking me out of my hotel, checking me into their hotel without like, letting me know, bringing me very expensive, I don't know, like, how much it costs, like, you know, different paintings. So, I'm just describing you, you know, Chinese way of negotiating, negotiation, because you can't believe it, like, how scared I was. I was really scared.
I can imagine, yeah.
Yeah, and, uh, after that, I consulted with a lot of people who are like, specialized in the Chinese culture, and I read a few books on, uh, on the strategies, like, actually, how people work with China. And everything what was written there, actually, had happened in my life. So, it was like, wow. Okay. So, if you want to work with China, be ready for theater surprises, uh, and, uh, well, lots of empty promises, soft power, and then everything comes from the leader, crazy.
Anyway, so, yeah, so, when I got back, uh, like, to the UK, I, um, like, was determined to form my school. And, uh, the main pillars were, well, this, uh, rapid way of language learning, basically, from zero to B1 within three, four months, yeah. Um, then memory training, like, yeah, associative training for vocabulary or like, basic, yeah, grammar constructions. Uh, then it was, uh, cultural intelligence. At that time, I was calling it as intercultural communication. Now it's like, yeah, proper term, cultural intelligence. And another one, at the time, it was more like coaching. Now we put it as soft skills. At that time, it was coaching, because I also got through training in NLP, neurolinguistic programming. Yeah, so, coaching, leadership. And it was really good for students preparing for exams, for example. Yeah, because they were all stressed, and we knew how to help them psychologically. And then we changed to soft skills, because there is a higher demand on perfecting communication skills in foreign languages, especially if we talk about management, leadership, global business. So, that's just, you know, a different angle, like, public speaking, for example, yeah, or management.
But, anyways, yeah, so, all this happened, and I devoted myself to development of the project. And, uh, at that time, it was called European Line, and I got into incubator, then accelerator, and then, suddenly, to my surprise, by the end of 2015, uh, we got into top 20 startups of the world. And, uh, yeah, and, uh, this is about like, you know, kind of like, overnight success, which was not, yeah. However, the next morning, when it all happened, we received so many inquiries, like, you know, to try like, language session, whatever it was. And we were not ready, because like, you know, we were developing an app. At the same time, we were teaching, and like, everything was just like, kind of, even not beta, uh, like, version, it was like, not ready at all. Like, we couldn't even, you know, accept, um, like, inquiries like, on on like, an automated, you know, automated way. Everything was manual. So, it's like, you know, Amazon at the beginning. So, we were like, terrified, because we received a couple of hundreds inquiries. And, uh, yeah, I was just like, frantically going around, uh, and then I found Calendly, they were just starting. And, uh, yeah, we got in touch with them. I'm like, "Guys!"
Wow.
"Guys, help. Have you seen Have you read CNBC? Have you read like, you know, the startups?" Yeah, so, like, we are the startup, so, we need help. Yeah, and we figured it out. And then on Sunday, we were already with this automated, yeah, kind of like, trial, I don't know, system. And on Monday, MSN reposted all the CNBC news, and it got even crazier. But then we were already kind of set. Yeah.
So, yeah, and then in two weeks, I got to another competition, like, to the finals of another competition, like, national UK competition, and I got UK Businesswoman title. That then allowed us to get, like, to secure grants. So, in 2016, after finalizing all this experiment with our project, we finally, like, properly, is that, like, a new brand, which is called Amalingua, like, Amar Lingua, yes, so like, to love language. Uh, and, uh, yeah, it's it's been like, crazy, because, um, the first year was very tough, yeah, because it's all about, you know, not just not just about languages, let's put this way. Like, you have, yeah, to manage a company, you have to do so much. At the same time, I was writing books, uh, was invited to like, to to give a TED Talk. And it's been like, all insane. I think that was the time when we kind of briefly, you know, like, got got introduction, I think, uh, I I shared with you that I wrote a book at that time, it was my second book already, this language alter ego. But then, you know, it wasn't the end, because, um, I was continuing with TED Talk, with more as well scientific articles and the research. And now I'm, well, in in the process of production of my third book. In Spanish, yes.
Yeah. I think my reaction was, uh, how do you get all this done?
Um, yeah, that's that's a very good question. You know, I believe that, um, it's due to all the, you know, childhood horrors. When I was in synchronized swimming, yeah, so, I practiced it for five years. Um, the discipline was number one. And, um, I knew that if, for example, I, um, let's say, I I would I would go from school straight to swimming pool. And after swimming pool, I would have just one hour to eat and to complete my homework. And I wouldn't be able to do anything else later, because I would be too tired, and I would fall asleep. So, I had to do it within that amount of time. So, I believe that time management, discipline, like, and fatigue kind of coined it. I don't know.
And it's all about as well, energy and inspiration, because, uh, at some point, then I just realized that with books, um, it took me quite a while actually to sit down and write books, because I was always good at poetry, like, writing in different languages. Now last, but used to be really a lot, and as well, I'm recognized in few consonants on this matter. But, um, with books, I just realized that I want to provide people with inspiration for language, language learning, because one thing when I'm learning on my own. Second thing when students come to study with us, yeah, to school. And the point is that with school, they don't study just like with me or with one of my colleagues. They start they study actually in a like, with a team of tutors. So, each tutor is responsible for a particular aspect, because, like, a lot of my colleagues, like, yeah, professional linguists, who are specialized, let's say, in grammar, in speaking, yeah, in listening, like, phonetics, and so on and so forth. So, we kind of create this immersive environment. But, again, like, this is like, this is available for people who come and study with us, right? But, what about others who would like to study maybe on their own? So, yeah, so I decided, yeah, to share.
And the first book was born during a situation when I was like, I I had like major screw, you know, screwdation, so with documents. I was like, renewing my residence in the UK, and I happened to be caged in Moscow, while I was figuring out how like, to get it all, and like, settled. And, um, I got time. Nobody knew where I was. I was like, working, but I had time. And, uh, in order to kind of run away from depression, yeah, because indeed the situation was quite, well, devastating for that time. I just sat down writing, and I was writing, writing, writing like, nonstop. And I finished my first book in a month. That was insane. But like, I I finished, and I think within three weeks, I already got a publisher. And we first decided to go with ebook, but, uh, finally like, this year, so then it got, well, this year, I noticed this is crazy. I noticed that it it actually has been a bestseller for the past like, couple of years. And with this year, we are publishing it, and we are publishing a second edition. But like, with English with, uh, the English version, it's a different book. It's kind of continuation of the first book. Um, that was, um, a bit trickier, I think, because, um, um, I knew that there are lots of materials, uh, about language learning in English. At the same time, I didn't want it to be too boring, like, talking, you know, in scientific language. So, anyways, it kind of tied very nicely with my TED Talk. And as well, we'll now planning the second edition, so about language alter ego. And then I knew that I would publish a book in Spanish, a book in Portuguese, in Italian, and in Polish.
It's coming.
It's coming. Yes. Yes. It's it's all coming because, uh, I'm not writing about the same stuff. I am kind of writing about the same theme, here. It's about language learning, cultural intelligence. However, it is written for that specific group of people, for example, English speaking people, Spanish speaking people, Russian speaking people, Portuguese speaking people, based on their cultural codes, based on their reality. So, if we talk about like, Spanish speaking book, uh, that's quite interesting, because at that time, like, last year, like, last year, I started spending lots of time in Latin America. Kind of like, moved for some time to Buenos Aires, like, and San Paulo, in order as well to explore Latin America in terms of, well, both, like, language learning, business, opportunities, people, education. And, uh, yeah, so, I started writing it from the perspective kind of Latin America, not just Spain. And that's kind of interesting, because, um, it gave me a completely new perception. 'Cause again, Spanish is so different in all these countries. And, uh, anyways,
(Laughter) All at once, yeah. Speaking of all at once, actually, like, I noticed one of the things you said was you were learning multiple languages at once. And there's some discussion and debate going on. Uh some people have the opinion that it's not a good idea because it it interferes too much and let's say you only have a few hours to study a week, then, you know, you're kind of spreading yourself thin if you don't have a lot of time. So, how did you come up with the idea of of doing multiple languages at the same time and and how do you feel that helps you learn faster? (Laughter) Okay, well, that's a good way to succeed, isn't it?
Right. And every time I knew that I would go to study to different country and I would actually study in that language, I had to be ready. And like, you know, even like, I don't know, before going like to summer school in Portugal, yeah, so I needed to be very sure, like, you know, proper properly, like, you know, properly settled, yeah. When I was going to China, I knew, okay, I I needed the basics. When I went to Shanghai, and I lived in Shanghai for a few months, like for business, and as well, continuing, you know, learning Chinese, still like, I need to learn more. I was very determined like, okay, I need to find, let's say, one hour per day, right? Whatever, like, yeah, for everybody, it's different, yeah, somebody uses like, tomato, yeah, tomato, tomato, yeah. Um, yeah, so method. Um, for me, it was about like, okay, um, like, in this country, whatever country, I'm using in everyday life, one language. Then, uh, let's say, I need to prepare for another country, where I will use a different language. At the same time, like, uh, let's say, with my colleagues, I'm using two or three languages more. So, I ended up speaking five, six languages per day. And that's been my reality for the past, God, five, six, six years or seven years, I think. When like, every day, yeah, I have to speak because of, um, either teaching activities, yeah, or talking to colleagues, or talking to partners, or whoever like in other countries. And that's just been, you know, like, reality, just, you know, normality of it.
You just had to.
Yes, but I hear you, I hear you, and I can tell you that, uh, well, recently, so, I've been to symposium like, on bilingualism, and also versus on multilingualism. And, um, there as well all these questions about, um, the balance between languages, yeah, and, um, as well about the influence, yeah, and code switching and attrition. And I can tell you that, um, I think it's it's very individual. What I mean by this individual, well, individual settings, is that, um, for somebody, uh, it's much easier to switch or it's even better. They feel better when they switch. And it's not just about languages, it's about activities. Yeah. So, they don't feel it's like bored. But, for somebody, uh, it's better to stay focused on one particular topic, yeah, I don't know, well, theme or language.
How do you find out? Do you just try it and and then go?
I think, yes, try it. I think I I think it's trying, I think it's like, yes, yes, I think it's like, you know, psychology. It's, um, well, testing yourself. Seeing, uh, what you are better at. If you feel that you are more of a multitasker, you know, person, you you feel that you are like, more excited, it gives you more energy when you switch from task to task, yeah. Then go try multiple languages. But if you feel that, uh, you're better at, um, like catching the flow and staying concentrated for long time, yeah, like, doing just one thing, then probably it's better, yeah, to be with one language. But also, it's not just about languages, man, it's about as well cultures. Because one person could be bilingual, but monocultural. Or bicultural and
Yeah, there's something more to it, yeah. It's not just the language, it's this there's a whole whole kind of back story as well you need to understand and and implement. But that's not easy though. That that's the hardest part. I I talk to my friend Anthony, who's on the podcast. It's probably about 100 episodes ago or something, but um we were talking about he's been living in Prague for about 15 years now. And we talked about how even though he's as fluent as you can be in Czech, like, there's nothing he doesn't understand. He could still get lost at a dinner table if the other people started talking about their favorite cereal commercials from the 1990s or 1980s, you know. So, it's really tricky and I I think sometimes language learners give themselves a hard time on this. It's like, oh, I don't understand everything. No, well, I mean, you know, if you put yourself into it, you you will eventually, but you can't expect to just, let's say, move to Spain and then a week later you suddenly understand everything there is about Spanish culture or or language.
I think that's a re-idea as well, like, coming back to all this like, linguistics stuff, yeah, about like, this personalities. That's the idea that the utopia of language learning that, um, a person who embraces all, um, let's say, um, cultural references, social, like, social references in the language, like, in the dialogue, in context, uh, can be considered, yeah, as this perfect, well, example of secondary linguistic personality, because when you create this personality, you create a person
Yeah. It's so different. It's unbelievably how it's unbelievably how different it is and it it shows itself for me anyway, just to give him some personal context, it's it shows in my the tone, the tone of voice, the confi- confidence, uh there's all kinds of differences when I speak let's say English to Danish to German, which are my three strong languages, and then uh as I speak some of my weaker languages, it changes even more. Um so it's it's a funny thing, but what would you say to people who find a maybe I should ask you this this first. When learning a new language, do you find it helpful to uh overly over-exaggerate the let's say pronunciation and and if you're in a place with a lot of gestures, like Italy. Do you find it a good idea to sort of uh throw yourself in and and over-exaggerate in the beginning and then tone it down? Or do you find it's easier to increase it from the bottom? Well, yeah, I mean that's all we can do, right? We we can only we can only say what we think we know in 20 years time, 50% of it will be proven wrong anyway, so
Yeah. And some people struggle with that though, because it feels very it feels like, first of all, it feels awkward. Second of all, it feels like we're making fun of the the kind of the stereotypical presentation. So, a lot of people resist, and I think that's actually holding them back, because we, as a second language learner, it sounds exaggerated, it sounds silly. And it might, for the native speaker, sound a little bit different, but it's not like they're going to assume, oh, he's making fun of me. No, no, they just think, oh, it's a little bit strong maybe, but, you know, I've never heard anything anyone in Danish, maybe except Richard Simcott, he tends to exaggerate quite a lot, um, but, yeah, for for a long time when I met him at conferences, he would always tell me jokes in Danish and, uh, make fun of make fun of the Danish way of speaking. But, um, apart from from that, um, I I I don't I don't think people don't think people imitate enough, I think they hold back and then they sound really uh non-fluent, like, they sound really basic. And I had that problem, for sure, in many of my languages. And I think once you embrace the idea of a an alter ego, um, which is for me, uh, you you I'd love to hear your definition as well, but for me, it would be like, what would the, let's say, the German Kris look like? Well, how would he speak? How would he, what would he be interested in? And just embodying that, I feel like I'm 10% more fluent, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got it right. It's it's a mix. Like, uh, it's a mix of, as I say, like, anthropology. Like, you become the scientist who study that particular culture and people, yeah. You pick, well, guys, girls, whoever, yeah, you just watch them, and you see what they do. How they move, yeah. What their body language, even like, how they walk. Yeah, their situ
Oh, I walk like Putin now, just as a side because that's the most badass walk I've ever seen in the world, so, uh, I've uh kind of embraced that.
Oh, wow. I need to I need to check it out. I have no idea. Looks like I have no idea. But anyway, um like, it's about, yeah. I I remember the walk because, um, there was a case study also, like, this intercultural communication, you know, stories. Um, how one guy, somewhere I think in Egypt, um, just, uh, didn't properly imitate the walk, and, uh, people could assume that he was a foreigner, just looking the way how he walked. Yep. So, and when he changed, that's the story, when he changed the walk, then he kind of blended in.
Yeah.
Yes. So, it's it's already, you know, without even saying, you know, any word, you could actually fit in or opposite, yeah, stand out. So, it's about like, first part is this, yeah, so, kind of socio-cultural, let's say, observations. Second part is imitation, yeah, and it's okay, like,
So important, yeah.
Don't don't overthink whether you're exaggerating or not. What's very important here, that you will suddenly discover that your voice, like, your pitch, tone, is different from what you're used to. Like, my, you know, my English voice, like, it's kind of, it's just, you know, it's just so different from when I know, I speak Spanish or Italian, Portuguese, like, Russian, which ever, you know, language. So, and I embraced it, and I I can like, distinguish all my voices now in different languages. So, that's also quite peculiar because you get sort of a rainbow of different, yeah, sounds. So, that's this is another one, so, get used to it.
And then, obviously, you need to dig into history, yeah, and like, history could be in general history. Major events, major, well, economic, political, social events, uh, trends, uh, culture, in terms of like, TV, yeah, TV, you know, movies, um, perhaps your books, yeah, paintings. So, to be on the same wave with locals. So, if you know that there, I don't know, let's say, elections, I don't know, elections are taking place, yeah. Or, uh, there is like, an important event taking place. Yeah. You need to be on the same page with them. You need to to be aware of what they're talking about. So, you shouldn't be like very like, hard on yourself, this, but I believe that it's very important because as soon as you start getting it, and then as well, like, making jokes, yeah, and understanding the humor, I think that's when you kind of get on top of it.
It's tricky, yeah, the idioms and fixed expressions.
And yeah, idioms and set phrases, obviously, because there are like a lot of them are tied up to all these like, events, I know, in like, old history or movies, yeah, whatever it is. Indeed, local like, local slang, right?
And, uh, obviously, then it's about decision-making and perception. 'Cause, um, um, I conducted a study on, uh, perception of the world, like, on perception of time and space, and, uh, like, in different languages, like, different cultures. And that's quite fascinating, because, um, you know that, well, in English, like, I mean, in, let's say, Western cultures, like, we talk about tomorrow, it's in front of us, yesterday is behind us. But if we go to Mandarin, for example, Chinese, and we start talking about time, we suddenly notice that like, yesterday is not, uh, behind us, but yesterday is like, somewhere in front of us or, like, you know, above us. Yeah. Why so? Because, and and the future is behind. Why so? And, uh, because, um, we are we've seen the past. We know the past, that's why we can see it. But the future is unknown, that's why we are moving with our back. Yeah, we are moving backwards. And it influences our body language, because, um, in English, I would indicate with, I don't know, my finger, my hand, my arm, like, yeah, in front of me, like, I'll see you tomorrow. But what are you going to do in Chinese? You will show a different, yeah, gesture. And I remember how confusing it was for me, for my body, while I was switching, like, in Shanghai.
Yeah. And then forth.
Yes. Thank for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I was just like, you know, I was like, entangled in my, you know, arms, like, where where I'm indicating. So, yeah, so, it's it's it's a different thing, but what's important here, look, that when we create all these personalities, it's about maintaining all these different perceptions of the world in one head. And there are also studies about it, because, um, again, like, um, like, our listeners could check, like, uh, for example, there are three groups of people. One group of people, who comes to another country, let's say, immigrates, yeah. They have their own language, and they start learning second language. But they can't accept the culture and language, you know, does work out. So, they eventually don't assimilate, and they just stay in their group. Yes, so, it's like, just like, mono kind of, monolingual, monocultural. Then the second group, the same, comes to same country, learns this language, and the second language and second culture starts taking over, like, dominating, like, the power, yeah, of this culture, and they assimilate 100%. They forget about their roots. They like, attrition happens, yeah, uh, to their first language. And they are like, local. And the third group of people manages to secure their roots, like, their first language and first culture, and like, be assimilated in the second language, second culture. Kind of maintaining both. And that's the most difficult one, the trickiest. And, uh, well, listeners could try, you know, to assess which languages and which cultures are really, kind of, you know, feeling like native for them right now, yeah, and they feel like really like, in a fish in the sea, and which ones are still foreign for them.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of confusion there as well, because we can travel so easily now in the world that you know, people go uh to to new countries all the time and they can live abroad for a long period of time. Mhm. And I definitely I don't know how connected I feel with my with Denmark, my original country. Uh but I don't know if that was like, did I travel because I never felt connected or did I felt did I disconnect because I traveled? So, sometimes that's I think that's a little bit tricky and I think often people who move abroad, they're seeking something that their home country can't provide, or home environment. Uh so that's but that's a whole different Yeah, no, no, no, but good, it's good, yeah, it's it's good, yeah. But that's interesting that when you get good at some or when you really embrace a new culture or really integrate, like, I feel pretty integrated here in the UK. Mhm. But I'm very aware that when I go back home in Denmark, I feel like a foreigner very much so. So it's like the tradeoff is almost like if you want to go and learn a new language and completely assimilate, you will be kind of forgoing or missing out on some of your original culture unless you're, I don't know, maybe you can be very careful, or you keep on top of it it somehow. I I don't know if that's even possible.
But that's like, that's the third group, as I mentioned, yeah, that the most complicated one, but, uh, according to the studies, um, there is a good percentage of people who manages to keep a few languages, a few cultures, like, being truly multilingual and multicultural and looking at all of it, like, at the same time, you know, kind of like, choosing in which cultural connotation to be, in which language to be. So, that's fascinating, because it's a skill.
I I I think it's it's very extremely fascinating. It's a very tricky subject. And I'm sure there are a lot of people who might be a little bit you know that might put them off a bit from traveling because they don't want to lose their their home identity, their home culture. But and maybe they don't quite lose it, it's just it changes. I think I think travel changes you for the better, definitely. But you can't have it both ways, I feel like. You you can't keep what you had and change to something new at the same time.
But that's actually interesting what you just mentioned. You you mentioned identity. Very important here to distinguish personality and identity, yeah. Identity, sense of belonging. While personality, uh, we can like, we can both like, have many identities and personalities, but personalities are more flexible. They shift, because it's about actions, yeah, it's about behavior, it's emotional responses. Uh, therefore, therefore, um, you might, let's say, lose your identity, yeah, like, the sense of belonging, but you might still preserve your personality, like, you might still act as if you were, let's say, you know, Danish, like, you would be acting as Danish with your Danish perception of the world and habits. However, you wouldn't feel that, um, that particular territory or, like, uh, city, wherever you used to live, still, well, still like, it's still home for you. Right.
It's tough. But anyway, uh, like I feel like we could have talked for the about this for days and you've spent years researching it, so I'm sure there's a lot to to uncover, but we I I know we're we're we're running out of time here, but I just want to thank you for coming on and and sharing your your story. You're a fascinating story and it feels like it it's just beginning, you know, you've got so many projects going on and there's so many new products and books and and, uh, companies coming out of you. So, uh, we'll be definitely looking forward to to seeing more of of you in in the future. But where can people find you right now? Where's the best to to go and see what you're up to and and find out more?
Oh, yeah. Thank you so much. Like, honestly, like, it's fascinating and, uh, guys, if like, anybody who's like, listening, uh, doing research here on multilingualism, yeah, like, psychology, psycholinguistics, please reach out. So, you can find me on Facebook, uh, Instagram, yeah, so, Twitter, not very, very popular, but still. So, it's Matveikaf, Matveikaf. You can you can Google it like, Ekaterina Matveeva, but Matveikaf, yeah, would be like, M-A-T-V-E-I, uh, oh my God, yeah, K-A-F, Matveikaf. Yeah, I hope like, Kris, you're going to write it later.
Yeah, yeah, I'll put it in the in the in the title of course and I'll also put it in the show.
Yeah, yes, yes. But Instagram, yeah, and Facebook is good. Yeah, and also like, Amalingua, 'cause we are writing there different tips as well, on like, soft skills, like, for example, public speaking in foreign languages, yeah, explaining people how they could master their speeches and how they could prepare like, TED Talk speeches, you know, in different languages. Yep.
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much and uh I'll see you around.
Thank you so much. Yeah. That's perfect.