Maureen Millward: 1200+ tutoring lessons later + LingoFringo

Welcome to the actual fluency podcast. Each week, you'll find inspirational, motivational interviews with some of the world's best language learners, industry experts, all trying to help you to learn foreign languages better, faster, and more efficiently. And here we go.

I come from Scotland, and now I live in Northern England. Um, I didn't learn languages as a child. I was brought up in a monolingual household. I didn't really start any kind of intensive language learning until about age 16. Um, which was Spanish. When I was at school, I did French and um, I passed the exam, but I couldn't really have a conversation with a native speaker.

Fantastic. And and this is actually news, uh, so might have heard, but iTalki are graciously, uh, sponsoring this podcast, so I'm a big fan of them as well and uh, I, I saw you is it true you've done over 1,000 lessons?

Yeah, it's about, it's about 1,300 now.

Right. That's amazing. That's, that's real commitment. But where do you think you got the interest originally, if you were in a monolingual household and why did you decide to go to university for languages, why did that come from?

Um, well, I think I did actually like doing French at school, even though the teaching was really bad and I didn't realize at the time how bad it was, but I did actually like learning it. Um, and then I started Spanish at age 16. I had a really good teacher and things changed from there really, I became more and more interested in other languages. I didn't travel so much at that age.

Yeah, definitely. That's uh, the goal of many listening to the show, I imagine going to a different place and and speaking that language. But before you can do that, you have to get through the early, the early stages and and get into that, uh, groove.

No, completely different, because now, um, I, I prefer to learn from from speaking from from from day one, really. So as a beginner, I know some people prefer to use books and they'll do self-study for a few months before they speak. For me, I don't like that because I find that I just don't retain the information. Um, I retain the information much, much better if I'm using it, if I'm speaking. I can't really explain why that is. It might just be the way my memory works, but I feel like that's, that's the way that I need to learn is by putting it into practice. Um, I do find listening helps as well. Listen to podcasts. I find that really useful. But I think the speaking is what really, really helps.

That's a good tip. I haven't heard anyone else do that yet, uh, I've heard the idea of getting the script, you know, the, the, the common questions that you always use so much in the beginning, sort of memorizing them first, but taking them from English as a second language. That's actually quite a a clever way to do that.

Yes. I also like writing blog posts, um, in what I call my development languages, the ones that I really need to practice where I'm maybe A2, B1 level and I need to practice writing as well. I like to try and write blog posts because the language isn't too complex in in the blog post. So I'll write them in English first and then into another language. And then I'll get my teacher to check through them.

Yeah. That's something I would like to do as well, but I'm so intimidated by it, but maybe the idea of using English first just so you have that kind of baseline, maybe that that's what I'm doing wrong instead of expecting to write a big piece in a very weak language.

Mhm.

So, you like traveling as well and I've seen you at many places around the world. Yes. And various polyglot events. So when did you first hear about this polyglot movement or I don't know what to call it, the community that's been going around. Did you go to the first one in Budapest?

No, I went to the one after that, uh, the gathering, uh, the first one in Berlin.

Yeah.

I went to all of them in Berlin and all of them in Bratislava, um, and most of the conferences I've been to as well.

That's four years ago, I think, uh, Yes, something like that. Yeah. Uh, March 2014. I was there as well for Berlin. Do you remember how you you you discovered that, was that a Facebook post or?

It would have been Facebook. Uh, because I was, I was following people like Benny Lewis and some, some of the other well-known polyglots and I I presume it must have been within the discussion within these groups or on these pages, um, and that's how I found out about it. So, um, I had a really good time and I've made it part of my regular travel plans every year. Uh, I don't book anything else in those months so that I can try and go.

Right. And what is your, your main aim when you go to to the events and and what do you usually get out of out of them?

Um, I think now it's, um, it's actually meeting up with friends now. It's quite different to to what I thought before because I have made a lot of friends, uh, at these events. There's a lot of people go to them regularly. Um, and the social aspect has become more important to me now than listening to the presentations. I think it's, it's changed a bit. Um, and I always meet new people as well. And it's really nice to be able to meet lots of new people who have the same passion.

Yeah, it's a, it's a great community. I find there's so so lovely people of the people who come and uh, it it's a good reunion every year, if you like, especially the gathering.

Yeah, I've already booked for Budapest.

All right. Yes, you're clearly a professional. I'm just uh, the amateur when it comes to polyglot travels. But it's highly recommended, I think. I I've talked about it a lot here on the show that these events are can be life changing. For me, the first one certainly was. I don't know if you had the same experience, but

Yeah, definitely because, um, where I live, I I don't have anybody in my local area who has who, I don't have anybody I know who has these same interests as me. And it was just so nice to meet all these people who have the same passion and, um, I can talk about all these things, uh, languages all day and the things I really like doing with people who want to listen as well.

Definitely.

And who are really enthusiastic about it and that was really a new thing for me and I'm glad I've discovered it and I'm glad that I've been part of it for these last few years because, um, it'll probably stay with me forever now. I I wouldn't like to go back to the way things were before before I came involved in the in the community really.

No, I agree with that for sure. It's just a lovely crowd and for many people also, I think if you get to that, that group of people, you'll be, you can't help but be amazed and inspired. Like it's just, it's just amazing. The topics ranging from, you know, obscure, uh, endangered languages to how to, uh, how to do online dating in Esperanto. You know, this the spread of topics is just uh, all of it and Yeah. And it's just a really welcoming group of people. So if you have that doubt that whether you're not you can go for learning some foreign languages or or not, then,

Well,

that's the best place.

What else has happened as a result of, um, becoming involved with the polyglot community. When I've traveled to different countries on my own, um, outside of the polyglot events, I've I've had friends to meet up with in other countries. Um, and that's all because of this polyglot community.

It's a truly global, uh, community. And I'm always impressed like, uh, you heard about those people who came from New Zealand to to New York and it's just crazy commitment to travel halfway around the world to to go for. Yeah. But it just shows the, the, the passion and the,

Actually.

Uh, if you're willing to

because I went to Australia and New Zealand. My sister lives in New Zealand and in both I was able to meet up with other polyglots who I met through the community. So yeah.

There you go. There you go. They are everywhere. And I'm sure Japan will be no different. I'm sure we'll see some of the familiar faces and uh, some, some new make a lot of new friends as well. So hopefully I can make it. And, um, it's looking like a very nice place they've chosen just from the pictures. It looks incredibly scenic, uh, just about there. So that'll be nice. And and I guess this is a perfect segue really, uh, to discuss your own, uh, language, uh, conference/event. Um, do you want to tell us a little bit about what you have coming up here in January?

Yes, on the the weekend the 25th to 27th of January, um, I'm part of a team organizing a smaller polyglot, um, event, um, called Lingo Lingo Fringo. And it's in Edinburgh in the Old Town, right in the center. Uh, very nice venue. We're in the process at the moment of, uh, organizing the speakers, um, and going through the topics we'd like to see represented. We have, we've already organized enough Scotland related presentation. Right. So now we're starting to look at, um, other language learning topics, um, or workshops on different languages that people might be interested in. So that's what we're looking for at the moment.

Right. Because Scotland is quite an interesting, uh, linguistic, uh, kind of being, isn't it? Uh, I I I don't know too much about it, but you've got you've got Scots and then you've got Scottish Gaelic. And then obviously English is the the big player as well. So maybe just since it is in Scotland, do you want to give us just a two minute overview of of the of how Scotland's languages are and uh, how they work?

Well, uh, Gaelic also also known as Gallic when you come to Scotland is a Celtic language, very similar to Irish, spoken in the Western Isles today by around 60,000 speakers. Um, we will be having a workshop on on on Gallic. A lot of people seem interested in it, so at the event we will have that. It's absolutely nothing like English or Scots. It's completely different. Um, anyone who knows Irish would probably find it, uh, quite easy to learn. But it is very different to, uh, English and the Latin languages.

All right. So what other languages in schools these days?

Uh, well, now we have schools that teach, uh, through the medium of Gallic, um, which are very popular. There's one high school in Glasgow that teaches everything through Gallic and English would just be a subject. It's actually oversubscribed, so they're going to open another one.

Oh, wow.

Um, Scots hasn't been given as much publicity as as Gallic. Um, Gallic has been seen as the, the one we need to because it's it has been dying. Um, the the Scottish government have put much more effort into trying to revive it. Um, so we're we have a lot of books now available, a lot of courses. Um, but we're also starting to have books printed in Scots. Um, lots of people speak Scots. It's very, very common, but it was, it we're not used to seeing it written. Right. But now there are children's books and they're, they're bringing out more, more material, um, in Scots as well. So we are going to have a a presentation about Scots at the event in Edinburgh. Um,

Very nice.

So yeah, so we'll have both of them covered.

Yeah, that's good. Well, I can imagine that that would be your first instinct when you're hosting in Edinburgh to really cover the the local.

We have to take a quick break, but we'll be right back.

Um, uh, well, actually someone else suggested it first, um, and I agreed with it. I thought it was a good idea. It's quite an easy place to get to and obviously it's very scenic, there's lots to do. It's a nice place for foreigners to come and visit and we thought it would be a good location. So it's actually Gary who posted the idea first on Facebook. And I think and I said, yeah, I think that would be a good location.

Yeah, that's a great location, yeah, honestly, it's it's it's very easy to get to, many direct flights. And, uh, also I think maybe this could just be me over interpreting the current climate, but I feel like the UK is kind of moving towards more focus on the, you know, the minority languages. I I hear a lot about Welsh, I hear a lot about the Irish as well and and and now Scots and and and Scottish Gaelic, or Gallic. I'm sure I'm butchering that, uh, a lot. Um, so maybe that's a good push in the right direction as well to encourage one of the, uh, I guess traditional monolingual monolingual countries, uh, at least in terms of of English being so dominant, uh, to learn more languages and and keep developing.

Yeah, especially at the moment because, um, because of the push from the Scottish government on promoting Gallic. Um, there I mean there's there's um, conversation groups in Edinburgh for all different languages. Um, and there's things like there's even a church that does church services in Gallic. You'll you'll get that in the Western Isles anyway, but in the cities it's less common, but there is one in Edinburgh. So things like that we're going to put in the guide for the attendees.

A what, sorry?

A caly, that's a, that's a Gallic word. It actually means gathering, but it's actually music, um, and traditional, traditional dancing.

All right. So you're going to teach people some, uh, some moves?

Yes, that's so Yeah. We we have a we we have the um, these kind of things at weddings and New Year and that kind of thing. It's uh, it's it's very common, but it's it's quite fun to do. So we're going to um, we're going to advertise that as well and see who wants to go to that. Um, and anything else we can find that's going on in the city that weekends to do with languages. Um, they have ghost tours as well where you can go underground into all the tunnels that have been closed off. They were houses hundreds of years ago. And they're supposed to be haunted.

Okay.

And you can go underground and into into these tunnels and have a walking tour and you can do things like that and other languages as well.

That sounds spooky.

Yeah.

Talk to some, uh, language ghosts or or something. That'll be interesting. No, I think it's it sounds great. And and as always, I'm really happy that you people take initiative and actually put an event on in their town or or country, uh, just to I mean, I don't think you can have too many language events. There's just not possible, you know. You might not be able to go to every single one of them, but the more opportunities the better, right?

Well, the I think the other reason why this this was suggested because with the conference going to Japan next year, it won't be accessible for everyone in Europe who would normally go to one a long weekend in Europe. So this was another reason why it was suggested and they they didn't want to have it at the same time as any of the other events. But it's just that some people felt that, um, once a year, um, a meetup once a year is not enough, really. People want more than that. So if they couldn't go to the conference, they were only going to have one meetup next year. So we thought it would be a good idea to offer something else in Europe, even though it's a smaller event. Um, it's still an opportunity for people to come and and mix with the community again.

Well, that's how it starts, isn't it? You know, you don't know in a few years time, you might have 500 people coming to Scotland for for the the fifth annual.

Yeah, I've actually written a blog post all about this.

Right. And when you say formal versus informal, is that the teacher categories when I talk you the professional or tutor?

Professional or community tutor.

Right. So you you you do have that separation there. So for the, if it's just speaking practice, there's no need to hire someone with a Oxford degree in English or whatever language people listening are learning.

Exactly. Like if if it's just speaking and I'm I'm doing all the work kind of thing, meaning I'm I'm finding the the topic, I'm finding coming up with lists of questions from these websites. I'm giving them everything then really any teacher would do as long as they're giving you corrections, they can do that really. So I I don't need a professional teacher for those kind of lessons.

Right. And how many lessons do you have in a, let's say a a random typical week and and how do you manage all your languages by now? Like how do you decide what to work on actively and to organize must be quite a a few there.

Yeah, probably about six or seven lessons a week. Right. Um, but with the advanced level languages, I don't need to do anything. I I just I I watch TV, I read, um, I might listen to podcasts. I might watch the news. I don't need to actively sit down and do any studying with the advanced languages. Even with the intermediate ones, it is a lot easier now because I'm doing some writing, um, I'm still I'm watching videos. I'm having to make more of an effort obviously with them, but it's not like being a beginner.

There's too many languages, not enough time.

Yeah.

That's okay. I guess at the end of the day, it's better to have more useful languages than less not so useful, you know, in terms of your ability anyway.

Um, my my Chinese is only I I finished HSK2, which is probably between A1 and A2. And I went to China and it was enough. Um, I got by very well with it. Yeah. Um, it was enough and it's not the kind of place where you can expect them to speak English outside the hotel. No way, really.

No. So there's a top tip if you're planning to go to China, learn a bit of Chinese before.

Yeah. Yeah.

I can imagine that's one of the places you might struggle with the being understood in the.

Yeah, I think I would have struggled because I traveled on my own as well. So without any Chinese, I don't know. It would have been very difficult.

Yeah. I can imagine. Um, so do you have a like a, is it a a conscious planning of the languages? Like you make it sound like it's a very very effortless planning, but do you have like a an actual list somewhere or do you do like a journal or something like on paper where you can see what you're working on? Because I would just be, my brain would constantly be tempted to do some other language than the one I'm studying at the moment if I had 10 to choose from, for example.

Well, I have, um, I have time where I can just do something random. I do have free time where, uh, you know, days where I think, oh, I don't have to do that language today. I'll just do something completely random. Um, so yeah, I do give myself time to choose different things. But like for example with Arabic, I'm going to have one lesson a week between now and March before I go to Egypt. So I know that. Um, so then I'll, I'll probably look at the, the Arabic, um, maybe three times a week for maybe 45 minutes a time plus one lesson between now and then.

Right. And that's quite a lot actually, if you compare to traditional something like an evening class or if you did it in in school, I used to have, uh, I think it was one and a half hours of German a week in, uh, primary and, you know, it's good to get something, but if you tally it up with all the holidays and, you know, half terms and and whatnot, you're left with almost nothing on a year basis, but if you do a couple of hours a week, you know, most people can find that time, then it really adds up quick when you're doing it on your own as an independent learner outside the school.

Yeah. Yeah, and it's knowing what to spend the time on, you know, good quality materials as well and activities that, you know, are useful. Um, I don't spend time with flashcards very much really. I get bored with that.

Yeah. It's definitely a hard activity, I think, to do a lot of. And I, I don't know, I go back and forth because the thing with flash cards, it they are so effective. You really do learn the thing, the words. But what I haven't seen much of is like sentence based flash cards where I don't have to make the sentences myself, cuz if I'm making the sentences myself, it takes forever per card and I might as well not do it. So for me, that's kind of like, okay, there's no point in spending half an hour making a flash card. You know, that that shouldn't be and I and you really miss the context, I think often. Yeah, you can learn single words, which may work for languages that are very grammatically similar. But if it's anywhere different and you have endings or cases, I would say it's actually not good to do flash cards at all. It's counterproductive.

Yeah. Um, yeah, because I've been doing, um, quite a bit of Slovak recently and, um, obviously I get to practice the cases in in the lesson with with speaking. But I always do some writing in between lessons and we have a shared Google Docs document and the the teacher can look at it as well in between lessons and that's where I get to practice the cases and I find by writing is how I memorize words as well.

Yeah, that sounds like a much better solution because you're you're getting the words that you actually don't remember. You're you're doing a very targeted approach, whereas flash cards, you're bolstering a vocabulary you might never use.

Yeah, and it's so it is my own choice of words, what I'm putting in there.

Exactly.

Um, and it's also full sentences. So I can see the cases and and, you know, what the case ending should be in in Slavic languages and, um, I've I've been using that system now for at least maybe three years and for me that works really well.

Yeah, because you you can't learn one language, I mean, one language, one word at a time in in the Slavic languages because you're just it's so useless for speaking.

Yeah.

It's great that you know 25 cases of the same word, but you won't be able to speak it because your brain is completely stuck when you get to the word.

Yeah.

It's much better to hear it in in the context of the sentence or as a fixed expression or I still remember fixed expression from my German class in sixth grade. Where I would say something like "meiner meinung nach", you know, you would start with that and and just say something after that. That would be the correct case in in that case. Instead of just memorizing "nach" and "mein" and "Meinung" and then figuring out what what the endings should be. Just memorizing it as a phrase. It's to me, that's it's a big difference. But I I can understand why people get hooked by the flash cards because it they do work, like I said. They're great for memorizing facts. Um, but and and they do reward your brain with all these like neurochemicals, so they can be quite addictive. But I would I've really begun to question their, uh, sort of long-term efficiency. Bit like similar to Duolingo, actually.

Mhm.

You know, it's a bit of fun. I I don't think you should, I mean, if you like it, you know, keep doing it, of course, but really focus on the context is something that I have learned in the last year or so. And it's funny how you I have talked to 100, more than 100 people on this show and I just keep figuring out what's important. And then obviously that will change from person to person. I see some people doing some amazing things with flash cards and you can do contextual flash cards as well. But it's just not for me. It takes way too long. So,

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's because it's inputting everything as well before you start. Yeah, that's that's what I find. It's just too time consuming. Um, but there's also people who'd say to me that they don't use, um, they don't have Skype lessons because they learn very well from books. It's just different learning styles because I know going back years before we had Skype lessons, the learning from books, yeah, I could still learn but not anywhere near the extent that I've been able to after Skype lessons.

Yeah.

I agree with that. Or if you do learn something, it's going to be a very kind of awkward to speak level. You know, you might be able to understand and speak some, maybe your vocabulary is even great sometimes. But it's just putting it together, understanding it in context. I think is the is the missing part. And I also find the books quite boring to be honest. Most of the time. I'd rather read a a book in the original language and just kind of go through it. That would be better for me than, because these sentences that show up in these books, they are just not very useful.

Yeah.

At the best of times, you know. Um, even if they are sort of useful sentences, I might as well just come up with my own useful sentences and then learn that way. You know, learn in need and not just from overstocking that basic, uh, vocabulary.

Yeah, especially if I'm going to a new country and I haven't got time to learn the language in depth, I just want maybe a few lessons to focus on just what I'm going to need. So, for me, that works better than buying a book and, uh, trying to find the answers I need from it because if I go to a teacher and say, I'm only got time to have five lessons, I need to learn the basics of this language before a trip. Let's do these topics and cover them in the five lessons. And then I've got what I need and then I'm confident as well because I've practiced with the teacher. So I'm then confident going into a shop or a restaurant and asking for what I want because I've done it with somebody else.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And that's a big thing, I find. But then again, that's also a that can be a challenge for some people. For instance, I get really nervous before Skype lessons. Um, just I don't know if it's because it's a foreign language or because I'm a little bit introverted, but I just, uh, you know, when the the teacher just before the call, it's just really nerve wracking and uh, sometimes I I wish she would just cancel and we wouldn't make the lesson. But once in the lesson and it starts to flow, then it's amazing. Then you've got the I don't know if it's adrenaline or what it is, but it feels pretty good to, uh, when you when you get going. So sometimes it's just overcoming that initial fear or just booking the lessons in advance, like, uh, you know, a a couple of weeks in advance or or just a few weeks, maybe. Um, just so it's there, you know, it's in the calendar. I don't have to book a lesson for tomorrow because I've already booked for the next four weeks without thinking. Yeah, that's that's something that I've found works if you're a little bit nervous, which I know a lot of people are because it's, you know, it's talking to a stranger in a language that you're not very good at, usually. So you've got some massive, like your brain is telling you that you're useless and worthless and low confidence. But but it sounds like you have a very extroverted approach, so so that's not really a problem for you.

Um, well, it is if it's a new teacher who I've not used before. I do get a bit of that. Um, once I get to know somebody and I realize that I gel with that person and I'm happy to have lessons carry on and have lessons with them, then, um, I don't get that feeling at all. But before I've used someone for the first time, I do, I do feel a bit like that. Um, yeah, so it's it is like a trial thing because not every teacher is suitable for every student. You know, it's it's sometimes it takes you a while to find the right kind of personality and, uh, the right kind of teaching style for you. And that's the only thing that would make me nervous, really. Once I've found that and I've found the right fit, then, um, I feel I feel quite relaxed about it then. Um, and it just it just becomes something that I look forward to doing.

Yeah. And that's the, that's the whole goal, I guess, because if you look forward to the lessons, then you're going to improve more and you're going to prepare better for each one. Which I guess is important. I mean, I know that's a leading question, but you don't want to just have the lessons and not think about it. Unless you're quite advanced, I guess, if it's just conversation practice, but for every other level, you really want to prepare at least some something for the lessons. Yeah. Just to not waste the time.

25th to 27th of January, Friday to Sunday. Uh, Saturday is the day with the with the presentations at the venue, and Friday and Sunday are going to be the optional social activities that we're going to have.

Right. And you can get, uh, optionally, uh, intoxicated in the Edinburgh nightlife, presumably.

Yeah.

Fantastic. And if people would like to know more about you or get in touch with you, do you have a uh, the your website or social media, which one you prefer?

I, uh, have a blog. It's languagelearningjourney.wordpress.com. And that's probably the best place to to find me or to contact me because I've got a lot of information on there about myself, about where I've traveled to and about the different languages I've studied.

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on and and share your passion for learning languages and and your new event. I really appreciate it.

No problem. Thanks for having me.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Actual Fluency Podcast. I really appreciate having you here today.