Shannon Kennedy: Introvert language learning

Season 4 episode 1 of the Actual Fluency podcast with Shannon Kennedy talking about introverted language learning. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Actual Fluency podcast. I am your host Kris Broholm as usual. And this is the fourth season of the Actual Fluency podcast. You're listening to the first episode and the break is over. I took a few weeks off to recharge, record some new interviews and uh yeah, take a little break to uh get back on track.

I'm good, Kris, thank you so much for having me on.

Oh, it's my pleasure. And today we have tons of exciting topics to talk about, but first, why don't you let the listeners get to know you a little bit better and tell you how you got into language learning and how that became your passion?

Okay, um, well as you said, my name is Shannon and before all this language learning thing, you know, this whole thing happened for me. I was first and foremost a musician. I am a saxophone player and a vocalist and that is what I do professionally. So I work in the music industry.

Wow, that's really cool and it it reminds me of uh another musician I had on the show uh uh he was a an opera singer. So he also said that they had to do uh good pronunciation in a few of of the romance languages. So I guess that's a good segue into language learning to to get that almost a crash course in all of them I guess because I don't suppose they expect you to master the pronunciation in any way or how does that work?

Um, well I didn't actually have to deal with speaking at all except for French because that was my focus.

Oh, okay.

Um, and then Breton as well actually, but that's a completely different story. Um, but for German, Italian and Spanish. I didn't have to be able to speak or understand the uh verbal language. I only had to be able to read. I didn't even have to be able to write. I just had to understand everything that I was reading. So it's a little bit different.

How did you attack that task? Uh, just read a lot and use a dictionaries and uh and things like that?

I did a bunch of independent study. I worked with a course books and things like that. I had tutors as well. Um prior to actually starting my degree so that I could get a jump start at school. And then when I was enrolled in school, uh I took supplemental courses in each of the languages and I did my um European framework certifications as well for each of them.

Wow. Is that was that a any tactic behind that or just would you just like to see where you were?

Um, at the end of the course, we were actually required to do the exam. Yeah.

Oh, wow. Sounds like a pretty serious course. I guess that's a good thing. Where they had to test it afterwards. So, so you went uh in how how long were you in France for?

Um, I have family in France. So I actually go back all the time, but when I was actually doing my field work, I'd go for a week or two at a time on several occasions.

Oh, okay. So so you've had roots uh connections to the to the French language for quite a while then.

Yeah, yeah.

That makes sense. And how did you continue after school? I I know you've been working a little bit on or a lot on on Mandarin lately. So, so can you tell us the the bridge from going to, I mean, it must be quite different to learn languages when somebody's saying you have to do this and then suddenly you're just I want to do this.

Well, I think in school actually, um, I mean I do have experience with someone saying that I have to learn a language because I I you know, I took languages in school like everyone else and it it really didn't work for me. I was the kid that kind of goofed off in class and didn't pay attention. Um, but when I was around 15, I think for the first time I actually decided like I wanted to learn this specific language and I had a friend who was actually from the Philippines, but she grew up in Egypt and then she moved and I met her and she spoke fluent Arabic and I thought it was so cool that um, she spoke another language that and one that I didn't know a lot of people who spoke and so uh I started taking courses to learn it as well and it was kind of our secret language for a while. Of course, I've forgotten everything since then, but that was the first time I actually like chose to learn a language and I think when I started university and I got back into it, you know, that passion that interest kind of came back. So even though I was doing classes and studying it because I needed to, I really enjoyed the process. So I didn't feel like I was forced to do it and I actually um would even meet with my teachers outside of class and things like that to work on extra things and uh, you know, just to more fully experience the languages that I was learning.

Oh, wow.

And it was your post that you had written on uh being a lazy language learner. I was like, that sounds so much like me. Um, so, you know, and then through you I found out about some other bloggers like Benny and things like that. And I started to see some of what they were doing and I realized I was going about it completely the wrong way, but a lot of the advice that was out there. I didn't really want to do because I'm shy. I'm an introvert. I don't want to go out and speak from day one. I don't want to talk to strangers. I don't want to jump into conversation. I just wanted to stay in my little corner and study and read books on my own and just hope that, you know, I'd start speaking the language, but that it it you know, I just I could read I could understand I couldn't speak and so I kind of had to change my approach.

Or you have a very thick accent. I've heard some people who are just into reading and I you know, you obviously can't blame people for having having that interest but it's funny when they start to speak. They have the most perfect grammar. They know a lot of words and then they just have the thickest accent of wherever they're from because they've never heard the language actually being spoken.

Right.

And what what kind of advantages or benefits did you take from your musician background? I that's even a thing. Your uh experience with the the musical arts, what what kind of elements did you use when you started learning languages seriously? Were there any pronunciation tips or tricks that you found easier? Like uh I know that for instance Mandarin is a very uh what's tonal uh but the I mean the pronunciation is very important for understanding. Did you could you bring anything of that to help you in your language learning?

That's really funny that you asked that question. I wrote an article a while back kind of about um a similar topic. And when I first started studying language, uh to me music and language were in completely different parts of my head, but when I kept getting asked the question like does being a musician help you learn languages and stuff like that. I started to really think about it and I was like, you know what? They're not so isolated.

Right.

Um, I don't know if I would say it would help me produce them sometimes, but I I am a little bit better at hearing them. Um,

Which is the first problem because I mean just taking from my Russian experience, uh when I was learning Russian, I still am, but when I was doing some tutoring, my tutor would correct my pronunciation and she would say, do not hear the difference between this and this. And I'm like, no, that's the same word. And so half of the problem with pronunciation seems to be that if you can't hear the difference, you can't really produce the difference, right?

Yeah. No, I agree. And um, I'm with you on Russian there are some things that I honestly cannot hear the difference. So a teacher will say it the way I'm saying it and then say the way it's supposed to be said and I for the life of me but that happens when you haven't heard a sound before it's not familiar to you. You don't hear the difference, um, over time you will eventually but yeah, I know you're right.

Right, exactly. And it it's a very good piece of advice that I hear every now and again and it can't be said enough that people who are saying, oh, I get bored of reading Harry Potter in Swedish. And I'm like, do you read Harry Potter in English? And they're like, no. I mean if you're not reading in your native language, why do you think it's going to be enjoyable in a foreign language, you know, that's just going to be torturing yourself basically.

Well, just because a resource is good does not mean it's good for you.

Right.

So, I mean like I'm a huge fan of Assimil. I love Assimil, but I understand that there's people that it's not going to work for. So, um, but and Pimsleur as well. I know people don't like Pimsleur. They think it's too slow, but I spend so much time in my car commuting to concerts and things like that that uh Pimsleur just works for me because I have to concentrate on driving. I need to be a safe driver. So I can't have something that's really involved or that I'm not going to retain later on and Pimsleur it it's repetitive. So, you know, I get the right amount of exposure in order to move on to the next lesson and while I'm only half paying attention.

Pimsleur is is definitely I would say an acquired taste. Uh personally for me, I have used I've listened to all 30 of the first Russian course and I I must admit some of the times when I was listening to it, I had to actually walk around if because it was if I was sitting down on the sofa, I would actually start to doze off.

Yeah. And the reviews they help, you know, because there are methods out there that are just absolutely horrible that it's not worth, you know, spending time with them. So if someone who's successful at language learning has, you know, support or has um, I guess uh endorsed a product in a way by writing a good review of it. That's pretty that's usually a decent indication that the resource is worth taking a look at.

Exactly. And you you before you were just talking about how you change your method after you started researching the I guess the topic you were learning about learning as we all do and can you just give some examples of how you learn languages today compared to back when you were doing it yourself in in school?

Okay. Um, okay. So for example, with Italian and German, I had um a couple of different workbooks that I would just studiously follow along chapter to chapter, page to page and complete the exercises and read all the little dialogues and introductions and grammar rules and segments and that was what I did. It helped me read because, you know, I was building my vocabulary and really the only thing you need to be able to read is a basic uh understanding of how the grammar functions and a pretty significant vocabulary. So, um, that worked for me, but as far as doing anything other than reading, it didn't necessarily work.

Right, and they also often have dialogues which are very useful at at various stages. So you can when you meet people out in the wild, so to speak, you can can use some of that, uh instead of sometimes the vocabulary can be a little bit off. For instance, Pimsleur, I think it's notorious for having a very travel-oriented uh vocabulary, which is great if you travel a lot, um, but or if you have if you're like the average American, I think that's what Pimsleur is made for and I always made fun of the lessons where it's like, you and your two kids on their way to their hotel room where you meet a a Russian woman or something, you know, and it's like, I just it's so far away from a a sentence I would ever use. I mean, by the time I would need that sentence, I would have forgotten it, you know, decades ago. So, um, so that can happen too. But I definitely

Yeah.

Also, they tend to be designed for male speakers. So the responses, like, um, especially for Russian and Croatian, which are two languages I've done with them, the default response is if you are a male, which I'm not. So I end up like, I I mean, I understand that I need to understand what a guy is saying when he says it to me because the words are going to be slightly different, but it's just for me it's frustrating a little bit because I'm not a man and I won't say those things.

Yeah, exactly. You would never use that sentence. So it's completely irrelevant for irrelevant for you. And the counterpoint if they added the the the sentences for the women, then it would be irrelevant for the men. So it's like either way you end up with some I guess surplus vocabulary you can't really use for anything, but

Right.

Right, but you're going to get that from any resource because no resource is perfectly created for you. So there's always going to be things that you don't find useful and then there's not going to be enough of something that you do find useful. So I mean, all of the different resources that are out there, um, you know, they're just a starting point and then you you need to take responsibility to kind of go further and find the things that you need to say and understand what you want to say and understand.

Somebody uh actually proposed a a new I guess uh, I guess you can call it a tool, a new language learning tool. Um, they would what they told me was, I I should send them or maybe it was from my blog or something, but they would basically translate stuff that I'd written in English into the target language I was learning, like Russian. And then they would insert it into flash cards, so I would be learning about my own life and my sentences that I would I already have used in the target language. So that could have that could be a very interesting avenue to explore in the future. Personalized vocabulary learning. That could be fun. I don't know how that's going to work in practice, but I was just thinking when you said it's never it's never 100% tailored to you and and one of my friends actually recently proposed the exact idea.

That would be really interesting. It it might be hard because when you just pop things into a translator, the accuracy isn't always super great. So it'd probably need to be done by someone who has a good understanding of both the source and target languages. So it it could be pricey, but I mean if if that's something that you can't find elsewhere, I would definitely see the value of investing into something like that.

Yeah, we'll see we'll see how far they get with it. I think for now it's just a a little idea, but um hopefully that might come to fruition.

I I so so agree with you. Whenever I've found that I've I've gotten stuck in a language just because I didn't know the words that I needed to know to get close to expressing what I wanted to say and, you know, in schools, everything is so grammar focused, you know, and every level's like staged around these different grammar points that you have to learn, you know, milestones that you have to achieve in grammar. And I think, you know, grammar is great and it's it's you need it eventually, but I think it's something that you kind of learn naturally as you get started. And once you have the vocabulary and you start putting it together, but you have those base words, then you start to learn the words that you need to kind of connect them or the cases that you need to apply to them to make them make sense. But that comes with, you know, speaking to other people and hearing how they say it and then it comes from actually knowing the vocabulary to know what to do with it.

Yeah.

So it's like, well if they're doing it, then I guess it's not that big of a deal if I do it and it's not even kids, you know, I've heard adults use the wrong gender for words as well. So, you know, and I you know, that kind of brings me to the point where, you know, people they they expect to speak their target language is perfectly and they get frustrated and then they don't speak and they don't go out and use it and they don't do things because it's not perfect and they're embarrassed that it's not perfect. But when you really think about it, I mean, just in our call so far, I've caught myself making mistakes in English a few times. So

Me too, me too, me too.

And that's my native language. So if I'm going to mess up a language that I've been speaking my entire life, why would I be afraid of making mistakes in a language I've only been learning for a few years. So

Yeah, let's explore that because that's I think that's an interesting interesting point because I I suffer from the exact same thing and actually I've told the story before of how bad it was. It was so bad that once when I was talking to my tutor, I would have Google Translate open at the same time. So sentences that I was thinking about speaking, I would actually double check them through Google Translate. I know that's not entirely foolproof, but if Google Translate didn't give me any errors, I would not know better, you know, if if it said this is this looks correct, uh grammatically if it didn't suggest any improvements, I would say it. And of course, there will still be mistakes in it.

Well, that's what we do as native speakers as well when you think about it because you grow up hearing your parents or whoever speak the language that you speak and so basically you're modeled kind of after what you hear them saying. Of course, later in school and as you read and as you take on your own interests, you develop your own kind of personalized vocabulary, but I can tell you with French, um, I used to repeat things that I heard my family say all the time around my friends and I would get made fun of for them. It was like, um, I don't know someone always used to say something in French along the lines of like like, oh my god like if you're hungry you'd say, how hungry I am or it was I don't know exactly how to translate it, but there was one time I was out with my friends and they were like, oh yeah, you know, let's go get something to eat now and so I said this phrase that I had heard so many times in my head. So of course, I think it's just a totally normal thing to say because in my family it's a totally normal thing to say and I said the phrase and then my friends just started laughing hysterically and they're like, listen to how she talks. I say it again, Shannon. And then like, I was just so embarrassed, but you know, you just that's what you do. You model, you know, what you hear in your native languages based on what you are, you know, hear around you and so you should do the same thing with your target languages. It's a natural way to learn them and even if it's not totally correct, you know, it probably will be more correct than if you think about it too scientifically and you don't get it out at all.

Right. And being correct is actually not that important. I I think I I used to think probably, but now it's more like is it going to be understood? And if it is, I'm totally happy, you know, that's the point of communication. Uh the point of communication is not to produce 100% grammatically correct sentences. It the point is just to get your inner brain whatever thinking translated into human speech and you do that for your native language automatically, but for your target language, you need to have a lot of practice with it before you get into that sort of automatic phase.

Oh, I agree. I think that, you know, native speakers will let a lot go too because as long as they understand you, they don't care about correcting every little error.

Right.

But once again, you're successfully communicating because even if you made an error, they understood you and that's really all you want anyway. So, you know, it's I mean, I I do suffer from the perfectionism syndrome and I do want to speak the languages that I speak as well as I possibly can. I mean, that's part of why I continue to work for them. or work towards, you know, getting better at them. See, there's an English mistake right there.

Right, and back to the native language thing. I mean, we're not perfect in our native languages. We only have, you know, I I don't know how many words they say are in the English language now, but, you know, most fluent speakers won't know more than 20, 25,000 they say and, you know, if you can't be perfect in your native language, which is the one you've been using all your life, then it's very ambitious to suddenly think that you can do it in a second language.

Mm.

But it's good to work towards it. It's like the the carrot at the end of the stick in a way where if you keep improving every day, and you can do this with English. If you're an English native speaker, you can learn vocabulary for sure. I mean, if you're in a technical field, if you're in a I don't know business environment, I guess even musical uh environment, I I'm sure you could say English words to me right now and I would not have any idea what you meant.

I think too with, you know, issues like perfectionism and things like that. These are internal struggles internal struggles that we kind of have and so they're not something that we actively talk about with other people. So when you hear that, you know, someone else deals with this too. You you don't feel so alone in in experiencing that.

For sure, and that was part of my motivation for starting my blog back in the day to a little over two years ago because every single other language learner would always be talking about they would always be talking about the successes, the wins. And it's very natural. If you're doing a blog that's called how to learn Chinese, of course, your your blog posts are going to be how I learned this, how I did that, how I did that. And it's not going to be like how I didn't do that. So it it makes complete sense, but I'm happy that we're sort of turning the tide a little bit and showing that, you know what, you can be a terrible language learner and still have a lot of fun with it and you will still learn a language a lot faster than you thought you could because most people have the wrong idea that they can't even learn a language to begin with. Let alone in six months a year or whatever long time you want to you want to put on it.

Oh, no, you actually said something that I think is really important. You said that you can still have fun with language even if you're not the best language learner.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

And that is so important. I mean, having fun with it is the best thing. So if you're learning a language that's not working for you, you know, you switch languages or maybe you switch techniques or you do something. The important thing is to have fun with it. You don't have to be the best. You don't have to be the fastest.

Right.

You know, it just needs to be something that's enjoyable for you. And I mean music is the same thing. I mean, look at how many people perform music and do music and participate in music in some way compared to how many of those people are actually professional musicians who make a living from doing music. You know, stuff like that. It's not so much about the success and about being the best and about being, you know, a celebrity language learner or musician. It's just about doing something that you really enjoy and if you enjoy learning languages, you shouldn't be pressured by, you know, being the best. You should just do it because you like doing it.

Right. I totally agree. And but the problem is sometimes that there's a a bias in the in the people who are going to write about learning languages are usually the people who are quite good at it. Uh that doesn't go for me, but, you know, a lot of the blogs before I came along were ridiculously good language learners. I mean, we're talking Luca Lampariello, Richard Simcott, uh Conor Clyne, uh Jan van der Aa. I mean, these people are very talented people. And I'm sure most of them wouldn't admit to that, but I've seen I've met them several times and they are very talented players in the in the language learning.

Oh, sorry.

Oh sorry.

Oh sorry.

Oh, sorry.

The comparison game's just a horrible game to play because we're all our own unique people and you know, even with something like music or language, you know, even if you're at the like the same age, the same number of years of experience, the same instrument or the same language or whatever. Um, you can't it it's still not an apples-to-apples comparison because you're going to use different strategies. You're going to have different interests within the language itself. You're going to have different goals for learning the language and all of that needs to be taken into consideration.

Yeah, exactly. I I totally agree. But getting back to the blogging and writing about it, you have a website, very nice website. Um, can you just give me the the uh pronunciation the usual everyday pronunciation?

Um, it's the French way of saying linguist. So it's also linguist and it's Euro linguist.

Okay, that good. I was I was trying not to get into some weird uh pinballs of linguist or something. It's good as as somebody who's only studied French uh briefly then uh that would be scary. But what made you start uh blogging and and writing about the experience of learning languages and and travel?

Uh, I started doing it, um, under a completely different name, um, when I was in university, but I mostly wrote about my experience in university and what I was studying and things like that and language was a part of that. So I occasionally wrote about my experience learning languages. And, um, when I graduated, I kind of stopped doing it, but then I started again, uh, a few, maybe a year or two later, I think.

Right. Does it give you any sort of uh is there any therapeutic benefits or a reflection uh like people say it's very good to keep logs of what you do. Do you feel like it it helps you sort of view the the the world or the things that you do?

I believe that when you teach someone else how to do something, it in return makes you better at doing that thing as well because when you understand something enough to explain it to someone else, um, that really shows that, you know, you've started to grasp something as well. I mean, I can't say I'm an expert on anything because I'm always learning about music, about language, about, you know, just being a good person every single day. So, um, I mean, I don't claim to be an expert, but I just want to share my experience because one, it can help other people and two because it helps me better internalize it myself.

Right. Of course, and, you know, you don't I don't think you need to be an expert either. I mean, uh there's there's always going to be people who are at different stages along the journey of multi-lingualism or, I don't know, culinary perfection. Something. Uh, so it it doesn't matter that you're not an expert and I guess this goes out to anyone listening who's thinking about writing about their experiences traveling, learning languages or whatever you're doing, you know, don't you don't have to be uh the best in the world or even close to it to have interesting opinions or or features. I think a lot of the time the interesting points come from people who have gone over the the early stages, the early troubles and are now sort of good in the middle and trying to find out how to become better, how to optimize, how to be more efficient and and things like that. So, you know, you could you could be coached by somebody who like Richard, who who's learned, who knows how many languages he doesn't even know, whereas you could coach someone who's only starting learning their first language or who's learned a couple languages but are getting stuck. So, there's always like this path, right? That you don't need to be an expert for sure. I agree.

Definitely. I mean you only have to be at a slightly different stage than the person who your audience is, I suppose. So.

Exactly. And it's just motivation anyway. I mean, I mean, even if I'm even if I'm reading articles about the struggles that I had ages ago, it's still motivating for me to read about how other people are are coping with them.

Yeah, a fresh perspective. That's definitely true.

Exactly. Ideas was sharing uh basically. It's always it's always useful. And one uh thing that we uh we skipped over a little bit I guess, but we'll get back into it is um you talked a little bit about your learner profile earlier that it's um the introverted learner profile, which I also am and uh that brings about its struggles, particularly when a lot of the advice today is about, oh, just go ahead and speak to people and learn a few phrases, you know.

Yeah, I I do the same thing. Like I'll mentally prepare myself to go practice or there's going to be a train in a moment. I'm sorry.

It's okay.

I'm mentally preparing myself to go out and speak and use this language that I've been studying and then I'll say something the person might not understand me or I won't even get to the point where I say something because the situation was a little bit different than what I had anticipated. And I'm like, nope, forget it. Okay, I'm just reverting right back to English or, you know, to French or wherever I happen to be when I'm trying to do this. And so, I'm totally there with you and it even took me forever to work up the courage to even get to that point. So, um,

Yeah, me too. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Cause uh a couple years ago I couldn't even imagine speaking to strangers, but I had a um, because this is something I kind of had to work through through music as well because I can't be up on stage looking like a terrified little girl when I'm supposed to be entertaining people. And um, it was something that I really had to work on with music. So that was something, you know, another thing that I was able to take from music and apply to language learning because if I could do it for music, why can't I do it for language learning?

Right.

And um, that actually wasn't that long ago. So it was around when I was interested in languages as well. So I was able to kind of apply the same thing to language. I can actually tell you about a specific time that I did it. I was out with my mom shopping for clothes. And there was a group in the changing room next to us of a mother and two daughters who were about my age. And the mother was trying on different clothes and they were speaking Chinese. And I was probably standing there for a good 10, 15 minutes before I finally worked up the courage to say something. Um, but I did. So the mother came out in one dress and I told her in Chinese that I thought that that dress was pretty and um, I'm actually really good friends with one of those girls now. So you just never know what's going to happen and if you have the courage to just kind of step outside your comfort zone as an introvert or as someone who is shy, you know, you'll be surprised, I think.

Yeah, and it's funny this this reminds me totally of what happened just last week for me. I was at a at a party or actually not a party. Well, it was a party or two I guess you can say. We were just having a beer at the local pub. And next to me, there was definitely two guys speaking Russian. Like I was 100% sure and I was like, I'm really trying to learn Russian. So if I don't go over and speak to them, I would ruin the chance. I mean, it's not every day I hear Russian around here. It's not like it's completely uncommon, but it's not often that I'm in a setting where, you know, you can just casually walk over and talk to people and it's in a bar, you know, so people are always cheery, cheery and you just say cheers or something. That's a good icebreaker.

Exactly. And that's that's a perfect example. And I think actually, you know, kind of to use you as an example, sorry, Kris. You know, you said that and actually for me too because now that I've realized what I said earlier, um, we both took a minute to kind of gear ourselves up to make that first approach, you know, what do I mean? So you needed your extra beer. I needed another 10 minutes just standing there.

Yeah, just take a breath and Yeah, think about it. Do you do you run over the first sentence in your head?

Uh, totally. I think out I plan out the whole conversation in my head and it never ends up that way, but it it helps me because it it's it's in a way it's visualization.

Right.

And so, you know, I also as someone who's shy and worried about making mistakes, it gives me that little extra practice in my head. I've also had um, you know, situations where I've done that and it it's still come out totally wrong.

Right. Yeah, well, you just get nervous and when you're saying it, the pronunciation completely cracks and people are like, what are you saying? Speak English, man.

But I mean, at the same time, okay, so like let's say you approach someone and you totally botch it. You just mess it up and you say the wrong thing. Sometimes, you know, that that's a good thing too because maybe they'll think it's funny and they'll correct you and they'll help you or maybe it's it's it's, you know, it what propels you into a conversation with this person. So, um,

Yeah, and I think we should also be one thing that I've learned uh perhaps in the last few years is is that we should not be too I mean, we shouldn't be afraid to make fun of ourselves either. So if we make a mistake and it's a really funny mistake, you know, after you've done talking to the person, you know, laugh about it. Have a little because it's funny. It's funny when you make that mistake, but it doesn't mean that you've completely failed as a language learner or that you can never speak to Russian people again, you know, it's it's funny to to just be like that guy did not understand a word I was saying and just have a little laugh about it.

Yeah, no, we definitely can't take ourselves seriously, especially in something that you're learning. I mean, you're going to make mistakes. So it's better to laugh at them. Sometimes it's really hard in the moment. I mean, we have our embarrassments and we're like, oh my gosh, what just came out of my mouth? Like.

Some languages have traps for sure.

Or, you know, false friends sometimes will really get you. I have to say. it happens to me in French. My husband and I actually have a page on my website called the Euro dictionary, which are ridiculous things that have come out of our mouths because we speak two languages so regularly. Like where we mash words together. My favorite was one that he actually did. It was the word crumpy. He was trying to say grumpy. But he was convinced the word grumpy was crumpy.

Right. Perfect. And I know another segue coming up. I know that you've been uh working on a little secret project about especially introverted language learning, shy language learning. So can you tell us a little bit about what this project is about and and uh how you've been working on it?

Yeah, uh, I have a book and an e-course that is going to be released at the end of the month. Um that's April 2016 for people who are listening in the future.

Nice one.

And the book is called Say Goodbye to Shy: Speaking a Language the Introvert's Way. And the reason that both shy and introvert are in the title, even though they're not necessarily the same thing is because the book really covers how to learn a language if you're either shy or an introvert because you can actually be an extrovert and be shy, um, which means that as a shy extrovert, it's hard for you to initiate a conversation, but once you are a part of it, you really thrive on the energy of, you know, being a part of that interaction. Whereas, um, being a shy introvert is someone who both has a hard time initiating the conversation and then having it itself, you know, is kind of takes away energy. And then there's also outgoing introverts who, you know, enjoy talking to people, but they still find social interaction draining. And the book kind of touches on each of those three. Um, so outgoing extroverts, I'm sorry, but, you know, you can't create things for everyone.

Oh, extroverts. Yeah, there you go. I mean, I guess for them, the the old advice of, you know, go and talk to people is very is very much accurate.

Yeah. So, um, the book basically just covers, you know, how to use your strengths as an introvert or as someone who is shy to succeed at language learning. And it's actually both a book and an e-course. So,

So you can go through it at your own pace and study each uh chapter, each uh each uh section.

Exactly. And you can digest it the way that's most comfortable for you. So if you prefer watching video, you can watch the video e-course and if you prefer reading, you could read the book or if you kind of like a little bit of both, there's that option as well.

So cool. So if people are interested in that, they can go to actualfluency.com/introvert. Uh where I'll keep a little page of all the information just to make sure that's always updated with the best offer and uh of course, I'll chip in with anything I can I can think of would provide you with some extra value. Since I am an introvert myself, maybe I should just uh include a little uh of my own experiences. That could probably be fun. But anyway, actualfluency.com/introvert. You can find those that book and that course.

Yeah, me too. It's a pleasure talking to you.

Yeah, me too. It's a pleasure talking to you. I don't know if there's a language learning uh personality type, but I definitely energize from these uh talking about language learning methods and concepts and uh I don't know how that works, but uh it definitely helps me uh to energize and and stay motivated for learning my languages, which have been my learning has been a little bit dubious lately. So that's always useful to get back on track.

Well, thank you so much for inviting me on. It's such a pleasure to, you know, get to actually speak to the Kris Broholm and be on the Actual Fluency Podcast. I mean, I was like,

You're way too kind. You're way too kind.

It's it's one of the high points for me so far, Kris.

Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening to the Actual Fluency podcast. If you want to come onto the podcast and share your language learning story, don't hesitate to apply on actualfluency.com/guest. See you in the next one.