Irina Pravet: Identity, finding home and learning Finnish

Hello everyone, and welcome to the actual fluency podcast. This is your weekly language learning podcast where I interview language learners from all around the world to find out their secrets to learning languages and also culture, identity, living abroad, and many other topics that are relevant to the people of the world today. So I'm really excited to have you here.

If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a long-time listener, welcome back. It's good to see you back and thank you so much for tuning in. And today's interview is with Irina Pravet, who is currently living in Finland. She's originally from, uh, she was born in Romania and moved to Canada as a young age at a young age. And we get to talk about identity and living in a new country and all those feelings that you get when you are not in your home environment.

And um, Irina is currently living in Finland, which is has been a big topic of hers for recently. She's done a TED Talk called, "Can You Learn the Hardest Language in the World?" So obviously, a very interesting person. Also, a wonderful person, met her several times. And so, I'm really looking forward to this, and I hope you enjoy it as well.

And just before we start the show, if you have an interesting language learning story or if you know somebody who's done something interesting with language, you think others could benefit from, please go to actualfluency.com/guest or send the person you'd like to hear from that link. It's a short questionnaire, takes two minutes to fill out, and it's basically an application for you to join me on the show because I want to hear from more learners out there. I I I have a lot of people who I interviewed a few times, and I think it's time to hear from new people. So, if you've learned a lot of languages, or if you've learned them in an interesting way, or if you've worked on any other thing, just send me an application, actualfluency.com/guest.

So, see you in the next one and enjoy this one. Just a quick note before the recording begins, I want to just apologize quickly for the audio quality in this episode. The microphone was not switched on, and therefore, what you hear when I speak is the built-in laptop mic. So, it's a little bit roomy and it's not very good. But, I hope you enjoyed this discussion with Irina anyway.

Well, I just want to formally welcome you to the show and thank you so much for coming on. I already gave a brief introduction just before we came on, but maybe just give people the cliff-top version of how you ended up in Finland and how you got interested in in language learning and and culture.

Um, so I I went to Germany in 1996 for the first time, and I was eight years old, and I heard German for the first time, and I was like, oh my god, this is the most beautiful language I've ever heard.

Um, much to the surprise of, you know, my parents and all my friends and all all that stuff. So, I I said that one day I'm going to learn German. So, I studied it a bit in high school, and then I sort of made that my major, or like my, whatever, the focus of my university years was just to learn German.

Um, so I ended up doing an exchange in Germany, like, like, when was this, 13 years after actually having gone to Germany that one time and then having fallen in love with the language.

Um, and then in the process on exchange, I met my partner, Juha, who's Finnish. And uh, after graduating university, like I I had one semester after I came back from exchange, and then I just, I was like, well, I don't really have a reason to stay in Canada, um, and I kind of want to see where this relationship goes and what happens with it. So, I moved here. And here I am, still six six years later. Um, so,

And then it just ends up like, what what do you do here? Why why are you here?

Um, also like in my native Romania, like if if somebody's even visited Romania, I'm always like, really? What what did you do there? Why'd you go there? That's amazing. What did you think? Tell me everything.

And we're talking about, of course, language learners. So, they start learning the language immediately and they get to really good levels. Um, I'm sure you know Alex, Alex Rawlings, lived here in Budapest for a year last year. Yeah. And he got to a really good level in Hungarian, and he said, you know, no matter how good my level was, I still felt outside the the normal sort of culture or rhythm, whatever you call it.

So, so what so what was this you you said about you can make anywhere home? What what do you base that on?

Um, and then kind of with that intention of like, okay, this is now what I want. Um, you know, then kind of building your home from there. So, first knowing what it is, and really realizing what it is you're missing.

And, um, at least for me, I know that like I've lived in a lot of different places, I I was born in Romania. I grew up in in uh, Canada, in Montreal first. So, like I was like fully French-speaking then in Toronto. So, like then all my friends spoke English until I went to a French school, like whatever. So, I I moved around in schools a lot. I moved around in cities.

And even having done that as a young kid, I kind of, by the time I was in my 20s, I sort of realized that a lot of people who are saying, I miss home, were actually very nostalgic about something that wasn't necessarily that way.

So, so like even on exchange, we had a lot of friends who were like, oh, the weather is crap here, and, um, you know, we were in Mannheim, and it was gray like almost all the time except, you know, like once a week where there was sunshine. So, so then you'd have like like a lot of people complaining about how at home it's always really nice weather and blah blah blah blah.

But but in the end, it's like, okay, but you're just you just have this nostalgic picture of of the place where you came from. But then is that like, is that why you left? Like, why did you leave? You probably left for a reason.

So, so I think like being really honest with yourself and trying to be as aware, so everyone is probably going to be yearning for home, longing for home. Everyone's going to experience some sort of nostalgia.

Um, you know, and and as they say, the grass is always greener on the other side. But at the same time, it's good to kind of get clear about what is it that that home really is. And I think that took me years to figure out because I was just like longing for this kind of like almost childhood childhood thing where you you go to school every day and you see your friends every day, and you're like, that's nice, but that's not how like the adult world works.

So, um, so it's also a bit challenging when you're like, you know, out of school and then in a foreign country, suddenly like, even if you went back home, you still wouldn't have the same situation. Right. Did that answer any of your questions?

But that means that I can't really if I went to Denmark to live, it would feel very strange. Mhm. But then again, where is home? If I've only lived I've lived in England, Denmark, and now in Hungary. And I've never really felt like, um, I guess maybe home is everywhere. Maybe that's the the counter-argument that it's not that special. Yeah.

Uh, I don't know how I got to this this this point, but it's it just seems to me that I can be very lonely in Denmark as well. Mhm. If if we talk about home, that's a often people say they miss home. It's it's another way of saying I'm pretty lonely in the place I went to. Yeah.

Um, so I would say if I can be if I can be in Denmark, where I speak the language perfectly, I have a lot of contacts, both family and friends, and I still feel lonely, then that cannot be where I should be at that time of my life, I would guess.

But but like I I was I was thinking about this concept uh of like home, you know, if I were at home, then, you know, I'd have my friends, and I'm like, wait, but I have friends here. So, what is it specifically?

So, so like I can give you this example because I went deeper than that. I was like, okay, I have friends, but obviously I'm expecting something specific from them that like, you know, my Canadian friends would do. My Finnish friends maybe wouldn't do. So, what is that thing?

And, um, or then like call you to or text you to like hang out or something. And, um, and I felt a lot of people, you know, we were sending messages back and forth, but you wouldn't actually like physically see them. Right.

Um, and and so I was thinking, okay, well for me, home is at least having friends like physically close by and seeing them like in the flesh. And just by realizing that, I thought, okay, so who do I have in my life that I could do that with?

And at the time, when this was happening, I had a bunch of friends who I'd met at gymnastics because I was doing gymnastics, um, and they would message me like every couple weeks to be like, hey, come to the gym with us. Hey, we're going to go train.

And I realized like, oh, shit, I have these people in my life. I just wasn't thinking like, I mean, you're not thinking home, and you're not thinking like, all of these things, but just by spinning it around in that way, you're like, wait, now I can actually like, you know, put my attention here and be like, this is great.

And then thank my friends and which I did, because I was actually like, oh, you know, I don't know if I want to go to the gym, blah blah blah blah blah. Making excuses when I was like, wait, this is actually what I need.

Um, but it even if it's staring you right in the face, you might not notice it because, you know, you feel lonely. So, I I think that's that's normal to like acknowledge also when when being abroad because all your friends from back home are like, wow, you have this amazing life. You're doing all these amazing things. And you're like, yes, I've moved halfway across the world to sit in my apartment by myself.

And I'm like, yeah, look on a map and look how easy it is to access like, quote-unquote, Europe from like Tampere, Finland, where I was at the time or anywhere in Finland, basically. It's not like just a train ride away exactly. So, Right. Yeah.

And what I think is also you mentioned that technology has changed the way we interact as human beings. That's definitely true.

Because I I remember back when I was a kid, I would just walk to somebody's house and just be like, are you home? And if they weren't, I would just go away. And if they were, it's like, hey, do you want to hang out? Yeah.

And today it's like unless you have like a calendar confirmation that people are in, you don't go over to visit them even if they're if they're a few minutes away, you know.

And also, I would say, you need to do a lot more work up front, probably. Um, so what I did was I started going to meetups and I just looked online for language meetups. So, I went to a German meetup. I went to a Russian meetup. And I just tried to go. There's also these international, whatever, whatever, relations, blah blah. And they have these massive parties that are basically like socializing and networking.

And I think if you put the extra effort into it, you will also get to a much more comfortable point. Because if you just moved to a place where you don't know anyone, you can't expect to just, you know, randomly make friends on the street walking to without doing any effort. I think some people might sometimes get into that trap. Yeah. And then they get really lonely, and then they move back home after six months or whatever. Yeah.

Um, or or what to kind of work towards like, these are the challenges you'll have. This is the research you need to do or or that kind of stuff and sort of, you know, also knowing yourself as a person and, okay, what am I likely to, you know, am I likely to just turn inwards or am I likely to, um, I don't know, have a meltdown and cry and call my mom and, you know, whatever.

Um, it could be that you can kind of plan and anticipate. For for me, it was like, I knew that it was going to be dark and cold here. Okay, so Canadian, so I don't really need to prepare for the cold. But the darkness, I was like, mentally preparing myself the fall before I moved to Finland. So, I moved in January, which is like, well, almost, yeah, it's pretty much the darkest time of the year.

And, um, so when I was in Montreal, like two months before, I heard people complaining about like, oh, it's 5:00 and it's dark. And I would just kind of like laugh to myself like, okay, like I can't be like those people because it's going to be way worse. So, so I I I tried to mentally prepare myself for that. And I and I don't think anyone ever really gets used to the darkness and, No. Oh, Uh,

Um, and, um, uh, yeah, I mean, it's really it's really amazing once the weather starts to change. And I I don't want to spend the whole podcast talking about the weather, but um, it does really affect us up here. So, um, when

The summer is not very hot, and the winter is not very cold in general. Yeah. So, it means that the difference in seasons isn't that pronounced as when I came here.

And I was like, oh, I'm going south, no problem. And then the summer was like 40 degrees heat, and I was like, oh my god, this is unbelievable. How can I live in 40 degrees? I was melting and blah, blah, blah.

And then the winter came, and I remember coming home New Year's Eve, and it was minus 15. And, you know, summer was so great, even with the heat. I was complaining about the heat every day. By the way, never complain about the weather again.

And then we were just out drinking beer in the beer gardens, you know, and just the sun was at at midnight it was still 30 degrees, and you were just in shorts every day, and people were so happy and smiling, and all the cafes had tables outside, and you know, people were just enjoying their lives. And then winter came, all the tables are gone, and all the fun is gone, and it's like people go to these, you know, clubs.

But I guess I like Danish winter, which was just like, you could wear an extra jacket, you know, or an extra scarf or whatever, and you'd be fine. And people were because we don't have that amazing summer, there's not that huge difference between the seasons.

I remember a friend of mine, like at the, it was in the fall, like right around when school was starting. And and it was, yeah, so it must have been like September. And she was like, oh, shit, like, I still don't have a boyfriend, and the winter is coming.

And I I just thought that was hilarious cuz coming from Canada, this these I mean, we don't have the darkness to the same extent, so I didn't it was like, you know, we're just going to hole up for a couple months, and you just like grab a person and like, it sounded like such a such a funny thing to me. But now I'm like, okay, yeah, I get it, because it's probably like, you know, it's a it's a lonely couple months otherwise. Yeah.

Like, when you walk on the street, you'd basically can't like, you here you don't make eye contact with people. That's generally like considered an invasion of their privacy. So, so you just don't have this way of like connecting with people. Like in Canada, you could you can look at someone in the eye and smile at them, and that's totally normal. Here, that's not cool.

So, um, so basically, like then the snowstorm hits. And I got on the bus, which is usually like dead quiet. But like, the the bus was full of people, and everyone was talking to each other.

So, I'm like, okay, when it's dark, people feel that they need to suffer. And like, whatever it is that's kind of, you know, pushing or weighing on them is kind of in their heads. But the moment there's kind of an external enemy, like a crap load of snow, um, then then suddenly everyone's like, oh, yeah, okay, this is a real thing, and we can talk about it, and we can kind of bond over it.

So, actually, the bus driver had to tell the person sitting in the front row, like, please stop talking to me, I need to focus. Which I've never ever seen that someone was so chatty and excited to talk to the bus driver, and the bus driver just couldn't handle it because he had to like maneuver through the.

But anyway, let's talk about identity because that's another big thing. And I mean, obviously you've been you've grown up in a few different places. Mhm. So, you how how do you find your identity? Maybe talk, I don't know if you can talk pre-Finland and then post-Finland afterwards.

But, uh, I mean, growing up in different places must have been hard to sort of answer the question, you know, what is my identity? Where am I from? Where am I supposed to like and?

Um, so, I guess when I was, um, living in Canada, then, well, here's the thing. In Canada, being an immigrant is not a bad word.

Um, so like I noticed that since since moving here and with a lot of the kind of political climate lately, like immigration is not like looked upon so favorably these days. Um, and regardless, I don't want to get into this like Pandora's box or open this can of worms right now. That's okay.

But but regardless, it's just in in Canada, like everyone is from somewhere else. So, so everyone kind of has a multiple identities.

Um, to a certain extent, like even if you're, for example, going to school in Toronto, your home might be like Pakistani. Or, you know, it might be like full out like Filipino, you know? And then at at school, we all speak the same language, and we all like adhere to, you know, kind of one culture, one identity. I mean, not one identity, but like one cultural identity, let's say. And then in your home, you know, people will say like, well, my parents are Chinese. So, like, you you kind of get an idea of of like, at home there are different rules. And everyone's sort of growing up in these one foot in each kind of place.

And, um, and of course, there are also the Canadian Canadians who have been there for like generations and generations. But usually, they also know like, yeah, my great, great, great grandmother was Russian, and like, you know, all that stuff. Um, so, so people keep track.

But, yeah, so so that was maybe pre-Finland. I thought that was like, yeah, it was just like, yeah, I'm Romanian Canadian, but I didn't usually have to explain the Canadian part because I was usually talking to Canadian people. Right.

Um, and then when I would go abroad, like I spent a couple summers in Germany. Then I would, what would I say? I probably would say like, I'm Canadian Romanian. I don't remember. I think that's what it was, more or less.

Um, so then when I moved to Finland, um, I guess my I think my mom said I had really high expectations for fitting in because like this was the second immigration in my in my young life. So, she so I kind of thought like, yeah, I'm just going to go there, and I'm going to like be as Finnish eventually as I am Canadian now. Which was like really high standards.

And and I forget like, when we went the first time I went to the polyglot gathering in Berlin, I arrived there as a Finn with my like Finnish identity on, and somebody like made eye contact with me, and I like freaked out and looked away. And then I was like, oh, right, I think this place is friendly. Not not that Finns aren't friendly. Uh, anyway.

Uh, like I think this is, you know, a kind of neutral territory where people are looking to make friends. So, then I like looked back at the person, but I'd already offended them. And you know, like then then you have to kind of like train your brain to be like, okay, this is the situation I'm in. So, put on the appropriate behavior for for that.

So, um, definitely I would say that part of me is Finnish, and part of me is Canadian, and part of me is Romanian. And then I have the two different Canadian sides, the English-speaking and the French-speaking one.

And, um, I guess I guess I like to keep identity. I think the best way, okay, hold on, let me go back. I think the best way to kind of really honor your experience, um, in different places is by having like a language to communicate in.

So, at least for me, in terms of souvenirs and keeping track of the places where I've been and the people I've met and the experiences I've had, I try to kind of encapsulate those in a language.

So, I I really take like great pride, um, in the languages that I speak because they they they say something about where I've been.

And that's also why I call myself an accidental polyglot because I didn't even know the word. I didn't even know there was a community before a couple years ago.

Um, so it was just kind of a mishmash of the places I'd been and the things I'd been interested in over time.

Um, I could say that when I first got to Finland, like the kind of culture that I like viewed here was like the complete opposite of my natural way of being. So, like really social and talkative and everything, especially in the Nordic countries, and especially in Finland, like like people tend to be more reserved, more quiet, more, well, the opposite. And and I go in this in my deep talk, as you called it.

Um, but but I think I think anyone can kind of figure this stuff out by by really staying open to it and trying to resist closing and saying like, no, I don't like this. This is this is wrong. I want to go home. I you know, like everyone's going to have those days. I have those days as well.

Um, but but just coming back to it, and be like, okay, maybe I was being too rash. Let me give this a second thought. Maybe there's a different way to interpret this situation, so that we don't like get offended.

Because when we're off the boat or like fresh in a country, we're going to kind of get it all wrong. We're going to misinterpret, um, you know, people's intentions, we're going to misinterpret situations, and it it kind of trips you up and the idea is just to keep going, to keep trying to find new ways of opening up to that.

And eventually, you'll also form some kind of identity, especially in that language if you're if you're, you know, wanting to speak it that's going to make more sense in that actual language than translated into English. Right.

So, so my my dad went to like German kindergarten, and my grandmother translated, um, for the Italian radio station.

Um, and she spoke five languages before the internet. So, like, that's pretty impressive.

Um, and I went to like an English-speaking kindergarten in in Romania. So, I I learned some songs, and I learned how to ask permission to go to the bathroom, basically. Like, very important.

So, so it's it's just to maintain the the the French language in Quebec.

Um, so, I was in this class where all the kids were foreign, and we were all learning French. Um, and we had this amazing teacher, and we had like rabbits, and all these animals. And it was like, it was like children heaven, and all you had to do was just speak French. Right.

So, um, so I think I think unlike lots of people who have tried to learn French, I think, you know, the classroom setting really like, I mean, I had a favorable experience there. Right.

Um, yeah, so so then went on to, I I think I picked up English from TV. I just kind of had um, some words from from my kindergarten, and then I I watched a lot of TV cuz we lived downtown. So, instead of playing outside, I was watching TV and picking up English.

Um, and I I know even today, like a lot of kids love English just because it gives them like the ability to communicate with almost anybody. So, so kids really enjoy that, and maybe that's what happened to me at the time.

Um, yeah, then then I studied when I got to high school later, so German, um, as I mentioned, and then I threw in Spanish because like it was like a French school. So, I was like, Spanish, that won't be hard. And and I really I enjoyed it. I decided to focus on Spanish in high school and German in university. And then and then came Finnish.

Um, so, so those were the those were the two words I picked up. And then that day, just because, you know, I'm a freak of sorts, I was like, okay, yeah, I'm going to do this. What? I'm going to figure this out. I I'm going to learn this.

Um, except at that point, I didn't really actually think I would. I was just like, let's just say I I will and see what happens.

Um, and so I started asking him a million questions. None of which he could really answer. So, then we had to start Googling things.

Um, you know, cuz there's uh Finnish like Hungarian has uh cases, uh, but they're inflected you inflect words and add cases onto the end. Yeah.

Um, so, so he was like, I I don't know why that is this way, and this is that way. So, So it all started with questions.

And, um, I figured out like a little bit in those in those months that we were in Germany.

Then I went to Finland that summer to like check it out, see what it was all about. Then I bought a book.

Um, from start to finish. Uh, No way. That's not what it was called. Yes. Yes. That's what it's called. Uh, by Leila White. And I wrote her fan mail later, and went to visit her in her office hours cuz she works at the university, and she like didn't believe me that I read her book from from to cover and loved it.

She was like, you're joking, right? I was like, no, no, I really liked it. And I do recommend it to people.

Um, but yeah, then I went back to Canada for like four months, and I was I had way too many courses, and I kind of actually forgot a lot of stuff I learned.

And then I moved back to Finland or then I moved to Finland for the first time, only time. And then I was studying like in the morning. So, what I figured out was that because it was so dark when I got there, um, I would I couldn't wake up before like 11.

And I'm a morning person who usually just jumps out of bed at seven. But but I couldn't get up before 11, and then I would go to the city by like two, and then it would start to get dark. So, it was just horrible.

So, I realized I have to like set an alarm and drag myself out of bed. And the only time I could motivate myself to study anything or read anything was in the morning. So, if it wasn't the first thing I did, study finish in the morning, then I wouldn't do it for the rest of the day. It just I didn't have the willpower. Right. It it didn't work. So,

Because I mean, yeah, you might get some sympathy from Finnish people, but you're going to get a lot of sympathy from someone trying to learn it as well. Yeah.

Or just like not hanging out with anybody because you've like pissed off all your Finnish friends because you're complaining about their country and their language like all the time.

So, finding some kind of balance between those two where you're not only hanging out with people and speaking English, um, but also not like mad at the world.

Um, I I think that is like the holy grail, and I think it's it's kind of that that's the tough part. Yeah, it's not easy at all, and especially when you go to countries where you don't speak the language at all and don't have any connections. You hear about a lot of people getting stuck in the English-speaking bubble or whatever language that they they have because they just it's hard to meet locals just full stop, I guess. Yeah.

Um, and I can tell you how I did this. So, before I could actually form sentences or have conversations with my Finnish friends in Finnish, what I would do is I would just drop in like words that I knew in Finnish.

So, it it makes me sound kind of weird when I'm just like slipping in words in different languages into like one sentence or one conversation. But what that did is that in their minds, it kind of branded me as someone who's excited and learning and like, you know, really interested and and um, yeah, like teach me things. I'm here. I'm open. I'm ready. Um, whereas

And I get like really mad when I'm in that box. And I can like tell because I'll meet people. I'll like say my name in Finnish. I'll like say hello, and then I get this like, I mean, hello in Finnish, and like say a bunch of stuff in Finnish. And the only thing that that person has heard, if they have heard me speak English, is like English. It's like all the words that I said in Finnish don't matter. This doesn't really happen anymore, but it does happen sometimes.

Um, the words will just it's like they heard English because they heard me speaking English, and I immediately went into that box. So, I will do whatever I can to avoid being put into that box. Right.

And so then it gets to like extreme things like sprinkling words in. But actually the reason I think I do that is because you'll start using a word. Like, when I was living in Germany, we were always talking about the S-Bahn or the U-Bahn, and then you just like forget what that word is in any other language.

So, I would talk to my mom, and I would tell her about the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn, and then drop in all these German words until she was like, I don't know what you're saying.

So, then when I came here, I just did the same thing, and then I realized that this is actually wedging me in. I'm like forcing my way in like, look, I'm trying to learn, and I'm I'm excited to learn. So, please teach me.

Um, because I'm also really impatient. I don't like studying by myself forever. With language books or or like, I I don't use any apps or anything because I like to talk to people. Right.

So, so the earliest I could talk to people, um, you know, and even if it's in English, then just sprinkle something in there or a few sentences in Finnish just to show, or even like, hey friend, do you know what I just learned? And then you say your sentence, and then they're like, good job. And then you're like, okay, now we can speak English.

Um, but but just something to to keep you going, even if it sounds super lame. But but but that there's some kind of feeling of moving forward.

Um, and I think that your technique could diffuse the whole tension there is about, oh, every sentence I say has to be perfect, or at least understood. Yeah.

When in fact, you're starting to learn a language, it doesn't really matter as long as you just use what you know. And if you only know a couple of words each sentence or just one word, just using it is going to slowly make you more used to speaking the language, and also it's going to like increase your confidence to the point where you can include more and more words and. Yeah.

Because that's a problem for me. I don't I don't know, would you consider yourself mostly extroverted or introverted?

But at at the polyglot conference, I don't sleep because I get so like hyper overstimulated that like, then I'm up for six days and night.

So, so I I would say I would say like, I definitely need my quiet space, and then I also really, really need my people. So,

Well, that's also at the polyglot gathering. That's just a really different feel where you just go there, and you're like, okay, this is going to be an awesome weekend of just meeting like a bunch of really amazing people.

And get and we're all super nerdy excited about like cases and grammar and articles and other things that I'm not nerdy enough to know the names of. But, you know, Yeah.

But try out try out this like sprinkling words, and let me know how it works for you. And also, also just I think it it takes less willpower to do that because, for example, you have this like fork in the road. When you open your mouth, and you're like, what language am I going to speak? Right.

Am I going to fall back on English, or am I going to go for it and just try in Hungarian? Right. Yeah.

And say that that day you have just less willpower. You're tired. It doesn't happen. Yeah. Or you're in a bad mood, and then you go for English, and then you start like getting mad at yourself. Right.

And you're like, crap, you know, why did I just spend like, whatever, how many hours memorizing vocabulary? And now I'm just defaulting to English, and then you start like beating yourself up, right? Right.

But if you sprinkle a couple words in there, you know, it's like, look, Kris, I'm trying. Yeah. Like, you're you're you're trying something so that it's it it automatically like gives you some bonus points with yourself.

Um, at least as a as a fellow perfectionist, I can also attest to the you can you can try different ways, and that's what I meant by staying open and not just like giving up entirely or or like, you know, like, I'll try tomorrow. Then it's like, well, maybe I could do a few things right now. Yeah. So,

But actually, the more I I I talk about my struggles as a perfectionist and introverted. Yeah. The the better it does get, you know, I do speak a lot more now.

I guess it also depends on your level in the language, but I do try and speak more now, and I I don't get if I fail to use it, I don't I don't punish myself for it. And if I had to switch to English, that's fine too. I tried, but if I can at least go into a shop with the idea of using Hungarian as much as possible, Yeah.

then I've kind of done as as well as I can. But it is it's a day-by-day thing for sure. If I if I feel great and I've had great sleep, uh, then I'm just running into the shop and speaking Hungarian like it's my native language. Yeah.

But if it's a little bit of a quiet day and you know, I had a bad sleep, and you go into the shop and you're just tired and you're just like, can I just have a sandwich, please? And you're like, of course you know how to say that in Hungarian. But it's just you don't want to, I don't know. I guess I don't know what it is, is it embarrassment or something? You don't want there's something you don't want.

And and you get defensive, and what I would like to say also to the listeners who suffer from the same is just don't worry too much about that because nothing bad can come of it. So, Yeah.

And like, when you need like some time off, just like give yourself that time cuz if you're just pushing yourself to be perfect all the time, it's it's quite exhausting. Yeah. And yeah.

And in the winter, I would pull my hat like over my eyebrows cuz my eyebrows are like dead giveaway that I'm not Finnish, you know.

And I would just pull my hat over my head and go in there and like pretend like I was Finnish. Like, I was not fooling anybody. You know, but but this this is what I mean like the silent suffering and like almost, um, my my number one nightmare when I first moved here was that someone on the street would ask me something, and I wouldn't have any idea what they said.

But then after a couple months, you notice that nobody talks to you on the street. So, it's fine. Right.

Um, but but yeah, I I felt like I didn't really give in to that like speaking English thing. And and it was so hard. Like, like I was so hard on myself.

Um, and and it it it was a really silent suffering. So, I think if I could do it again, I would just be a little bit nicer to myself that I would like, you know, just just do it when you need to do it and don't like live in fear that someone will come and speak something to you, and you can't just default to English. So,

But that's definitely like the perfectionism, I think. Because you're you're you're fearing something that is just not it's not possible. I mean, there's not no bad outcome.

But it's the irrational part of our brain that's playing tricks with us. And, yeah, I I I what I just tried to say to myself is just don't worry, but I mean, of course, I worry half to say anyway. It's like, will I ever learn this language? And, uh, I mean, you're talking What's that?

Or um, or that I heard that so many times in the beginning like, you're you're not going to learn this language, like, don't even bother. Um, and Yeah.

That's not a an ability. It's not a lack of ability or a lack of anything. It's just they have convinced themselves that it's not possible. Exactly. So, therefore, it becomes not possible.

But when you're in the polyglot community, everyone around you is basically interested in learning languages, and everyone knows that of course you can learn any language you want if you set your mind to it.

It's just really strange sometimes to step out of that bubble and listen to people who haven't even read the first thing about hobby language learning, which is another word for people in the community, I guess. But but they're probably taking classes in school and were like severely traumatized.

I mean, I I talked to a 17-year-old kid recently. And he was like, I I I've had French for eight years, and I can't I can't say the first thing. Yeah.

And I was like, yeah, it's a combination of first of all the teacher and the method. But probably also because you told yourself early that you don't know how to do this or you can't do it. So, you've just blocked it off mentally for many years.

And I mean, I did the same with German. I've had German. I wrote a blog post about how I've had German education for eight years. Yeah.

And I tested at a, okay, an online test, maybe not the most accurate, but I tested at a a B1 level. Mhm.

And you'd think eight years, I mean, I see some of these obviously very talented people in the polyglot community. They reach B1 in, you know, six months or something. Yeah.

And it's just studying by themselves. Then I did the math as well. And it turns out, you don't have a lot of classes in a year. Because of weekends, and holidays, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I I think it turned out that in eight years, I'd only had 300 hours of German, roughly. If I count all all the classes, which I definitely didn't.

And it's also about what are you putting the focus on? Like, do you actually want to speak, or do you want to know like the gender of every single article um, noun that you're learning? So, like that was the focus for our high school German class. Yeah.

It was like, is this der, die, or das? And then all the tests were like testing, you know, like in dem house, in house, whatever, you know?

And then and then it's like, okay, I know that if it's this gender, I write this, or if it's that gender, I write that. But I don't know what the gender of this specific thing is, and you know, so I was getting like mediocre grades.

But and and but but it was like, okay, but can I string sentences together?

And and then when I went to Germany, I have a I have an uncle who lives there, and he could see like the wheels turning in my head. Whenever I tried to like put together a sentence, he was like, stop thinking about grammar. Just speak. Yeah.

So, so once I actually like did that, like I use all the wrong cases all the time. But hey, I'm speaking, and people understand. So, Yeah.

So, like sure, I don't know. On some level, I'm a perfectionist, on some other level, I'm not at all because I just have like embraced that, okay, it's just going to be all wrong. And in German, it's just it's all wrong. Yeah.

Um, yeah, we had when you said them all, and then you said the little thing in date afterwards to match the the names. But anyway, um, that I think that what that creates is a sort of perfectionist attitude, actually. Yeah.

Because you you it's kind of like you they tell you, this is really important, and it turns out, what I've learned in the last two years is that grammar means nothing. Yeah.

It doesn't mean anything because the only important thing is, does the person across from you understand what you are saying? Yeah. If he understands what you're saying, you've used enough grammar. Yeah. If he doesn't understand, okay, we might have to work on it a little bit.

But for nine out of ten languages, and probably 18 out of 20 sentences in any language, people can sort of get the context anyway. Yeah.

So, I mean, I tried a little bit with Russian, running into some trouble, because I don't know why, but Russian is very hard. And uh, and um. Yeah. So, I keep hearing. Yeah, don't don't don't do it. Don't do it.

Um, and uh, what I realized is that Russian people also are not used to non-native people speaking. Yeah. So, it was harder for me sometimes to get away with making a butcher in the grammar, basically.

But now I've realized, you know, it doesn't really matter. And it doesn't matter if it's der, die, or das. Yeah. If I don't remember it, it doesn't really help me to stand there and think for 15 minutes before saying a sentence. Mhm.

Because you will get it through context. If you live in Germany or if you live in a German, uh, context every day, you can make this at your house too. If you watch German TV, listen to music or whatever. You can hear it in sentences. Yeah.

Like, oh, okay, like you said, you're dim, whatever. Uh, you can hear out of context what the right grammar is. Yeah. And the the grammar will appear in your mind as a fixed expression. Mhm. Exactly.

And that's that's like and that's like a native if you ask a native German speaker to explain why it's uh, der, die, or das. They have no clue. But No. For the last 20 or 30 or 50, however old they are, they have been hearing the same um, what is it, an article in front of that word.

So, they know if you start to say, uh, die Mann, they they're like, uh, that's definitely wrong. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

So, that's what I mean, and people focus on this too much, and they're like, oh, I'm not really good at pronunciation and stuff. And to I just say, good enough. Get a good enough pronunciation where people don't misunderstand you. Mhm.

You know, don't worry about sounding exactly like a Frenchman if you're learning French or a somebody from Quebec, you know, it's it's not about having a native-like fluency or pronunciation. Yeah.

Um, so, once a week, I coach gymnastics, uh, for like three hours with to kids. Um, and it's just like the most insane challenge I took on, where I was like, I really need to up my language skills. And I kind of needed a job right now. So, I'm just going to start teaching gymnastics.

And I'd been I'd done it before in English and French. And I'd taken gymnastics in Finnish, so I had learned quite a lot of vocabulary. So, I knew like the names of things. I didn't know any of the verbs, though. Yeah. And I didn't know the names of all the things.

So, so now I've learned a lot. I this is like my third year doing it, I think.

And, um, And so with my kids, like, I just find it so like liberating because you can be so weird, and you can be so silly. And I like with the teenagers, I'm like, hey, help me, what's this word? But with the younger kids, I don't like, you know, I'll just say like a really weird thing.

And and I'm missing half the vocab, so I have to find really interesting ways of saying things. And it's just gotten to be so much fun.

And and, you know, some kids have asked me like, why do you speak weird? But at the same time, you know, they're always like learning, and they're always like looking at adults, and and they don't think like, oh my god, that adult is so weird. They're thinking like, huh, what what does that adult know that I don't know, you know? And they trying to get something from you.

So, so in in that sense, I found that that's that's been like probably the thing that's accelerated my my Finnish the most. And it was putting myself in this super uncomfortable, like, okay, for the next three hours, I have to speak Finnish, and nobody can translate for me.

Um, so, but but really like making the language your own, and kind of like, okay, you're going to say this wrong. You're not going to express this like a native speaker. But the only way to figure out how a native speaker would eventually express this is to do it your own way. Yeah.

And I think that's really beaten down the perfectionist in me, at least in Finnish. Right.

Um, so, yes, I I warmly warmly encourage everyone out there to give that a try with whatever.

I mean, it's crazy how when you get into these, uh, very interesting topics. I mean, why are there no university degrees about these things that we're talking about? I would be a PhD in no time.

Um, but it's always like some kind of sideline or grammar related. So, but I'm really happy to, uh, to talk to you about this, and, uh, will we see you at in Berlin this year?

But I'm going to I'm going to try to make it to the next event or then the next gathering because I already miss you guys all so much, and I just want to like, you know, get get my, what my fix.

So, it's very similar that it was happy. Happy people. Oh yeah, the happiest people in the world some years, apparently. Yeah. And the greatest cities to live or whatnot. Well, also most expensive, but anyway.

But anyway, uh, thank you so much for for having me, Kris. I've had so much fun discussing with this with you, some of my favorite topics to to talk about. So, I love nerding out about them. Yeah, thank you for for sharing your experience and your observations. I guess that's a very important, and uh, best of luck in in the Finnish uh, well, you summer is coming up, I I guess you're excited about that.