Robin MacPherson: Finding Home and Isolation Abroad 1/2
Kris Broholm welcomes Robin MacPherson to discuss the emotional and psychological journey of living abroad and learning languages. They explore the deeper aspects of finding home, happiness, and loneliness, including the often-overlooked negative experiences of expatriate life. This episode focuses on the human side of living in a foreign country.
May 9, 2014 · 48 min
EP 9: Robin MacPherson: Finding Home and Isolation Abroad 1/2
0:00 / 47:32
Guest
Robin MacPherson
What You'll Hear
- 1 Introduction: Emotional Side of Language Learning
- 2 Robin's Journey: From School French to Japanese
- 3 Making the Documentary: A Four-Year Project
- 4 Finding 'Home': Not a Physical Location
- 5 Japan: Expat Bubbles and Loneliness Explored
- 6 Top Tip: Ask for Help, Break the Bubble
- 7 Motivation: Dreaming Big, Starting Small
- 8 Intense Study: Unhealthy Obsession or Escape?
Links Mentioned
Questions Covered in the Show
How did Robin MacPherson start learning foreign languages?- 8m
How did Robin MacPherson learn filmmaking?- 16m
What is the meaning of "home" for people who live abroad?- 22m
What causes loneliness for language learners living in a foreign country?- 27m
What are effective ways to meet native speakers when living abroad?- 31m
Can language learning be used as a coping mechanism or an escape?- 41m
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On this episode of the Actual Fluency podcast, I'm joined by Robin MacPherson. In this first episode of a two-part series, we get into the emotional and psychological aspects of traveling the world and learning languages. Welcome to the Actual Fluency podcast. The podcast that gives you the tools and inspiration to learn languages faster and more efficiently. And now your host, Chris Broholm.
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Actual Fluency podcast. This week, I have an amazingly special guest and I'm very excited to announce that I'll be having Mr. Robin MacPherson on. Robin recently published a documentary on YouTube about his life about finding home in a foreign country. And it was a very well received documentary. It was a episode one, he called it, about 20 minutes long. And I just knew when I saw that video, I just knew that I had to get him on because he shares so many deep emotional things in the documentary that I really wanted to drill down into.
And indeed, it's very easy when you're doing these kind of interview style show that you often focus a lot on the positive aspects like, yay, learning a new language, learning new cultures, I'm meeting new people, I'm having fun, you know. I'm becoming a better human, I'm becoming more social, you know, we look at all these positive aspects. And, and what I I I think, I mean, you'll listen to the interview in in in in just a second, but what I think we get into really well with Robin is that he's very realistic and he really evaluates both sides equally. Whereas, you know, a lot of people might not even consider that there are negative aspects to, you know, uh leaving your home country, um moving abroad, learning a new language, all these things. And that's what we talk about today.
So, also, we had quite a long talk, Robin and I, and it was a very exciting talk and lots of good stuff. And so that actually does mean that for the first time in the show's history, uh this is going to be a two-part episode because there was just too much stuff to fill in in one episode. It would have been way over an hour if I had to put it into a single episode. So, the first episode that you're going to hear now, is the episode where we discuss his documentary and we talk about the emotional and psychological responses to learning languages, but we don't get into as much specifics, you know, we don't specifically talk about how he's learning it or this and that. It's more about life goals and happiness and loneliness and all these emotional and psychological aspects of it. Um, so if you don't care too much for that side of the coin, I can only suggest that you listen to next week's episode, uh or indeed if you're listening to this in the future, then check out the next episode. Uh this is episode nine, and uh the next episode with Robin will be episode 10. And uh so if you're more of a practical person then go do go listen to that next one.
Um, that's uh pretty much it. And always uh as always I should say, be sure if you want to check out any show notes, if you want to check out uh Robin's excellent documentary before the episode, I I suggest you pause and go to actualfluency.com/09 where the links and everything will be in the post below. So you can uh see who Robin is before you hear his uh wise words. And with that said, uh allow me to um bring you this week's interview segment, which is with Robin MacPherson. All right, listeners, I have a very special guest on the show today. My guest on this episode is Robin MacPherson. Robin is 22 years old and originally from England but moved to America when he was 16. Through living in a variety of places, he developed a hardcore passion for languages and cultures and recently he premiered with his YouTube series called The Life of Rob where he documents and discusses big life questions. Robin, so glad to have you on the show. How are you today?
I'm very well, Chris. How are you doing?
I'm fantastic. Um I gave the listeners a little bit of an introduction, but they want to get to know you better. Can you tell me a little bit more about yourself and how you first found yourself learning foreign languages and cultures?
Um it's quite funny uh like some people I've also heard, I actually was terrible at foreign languages in school as a kid. My first encounter was French, um primary school and I just was terrible at it. I never um you know, it I don't know if this is just me recalling it this way, but I I swear nobody ever actually told me that, you know, foreign languages don't just translate word for word. So you know, what I would do is I would take, you know, dictionaries and literally just translate every word. Right. So I'd end up with, you know, like infinitives, verbs and, you know, just all throughout sentences and yeah. It was pretty, it was pretty bad.
Um but yeah and then I spent a lot of time in France and Spain with my father when I was a kid. Uh so that kind of got me interested in the the sort of the other side of it, in regards to the food, the the music and just general cultural things. Um and then when I was about 14 I just decided one day completely out of the blue, um mom, I I want to learn Spanish. Could you please, please, please, you know, buy me one of those books? Any book just so I can start learning Spanish. And that's what she did. So I I started teaching myself Spanish, um on my own, uh just using these little books. Um but I never really knew that I liked it that much. I was but I was just kind of enjoying it.
But then when I moved to the states, uh where I was a lot of um Latin Americans living in the town where I was. And so um that was really what sort of started the actual the love affair with um with foreign languages. But even then I didn't quite, I didn't quite realize how much I loved it until I got into university um and I started Japanese and that was really when things sort of kicked off and uh and even the whole sort of multi- like multilingual side of me is really very new. I really only started that when I was in Japan. I I picked up a bit I picked up French again a little bit before I went to Japan, but it was really during my time in Japan that I just suddenly just it just caught fire, you know. Exactly. Yeah.
And we'll get back to Japan in a minute, of course, but uh first I just wanted to ask you, do you remember what if you had any did you use teach yourself or any of these high highly known courses or was it just literally a book in Spanish that you would just cross reference with a dictionary or
Um it was actually it was really not it was one of those sort of become fluent in six weeks, or not fluent, but, you know, business fluent in six weeks, you know. It was a it was a and it was quite a delightful little book actually. It was sort of a nice little narration. It was a lady, you know, on a plane as they are, you know. Right. She starts talking to a Spanish man and, you know, etcetera. But it was very I liked it, you know. But you know I I at this time I had no clue any of the the big name books. I just all I she could have brought home anything and I would have enjoyed it, you know. Right. So.
That's great. And and and of course the the way I I became aware of you was through your uh documentary as I just alluded to in the introduction where the first episode was recently released. And I mean, I must say it's just incredibly well-made, you know. We you have YouTube videos that are quite crap usually and and when when you put up the link, I must say you're not the best at teasing because you put up the link and you were like, guys, I'm speaking like eight languages in this movie. Am I accent the accents any good? And I thought, oh god, I'm going to listen to a grainy webcam video of some guy trying to speak, you know, eight languages and he probably only spent, you know, an hour on five of them. So, I opened it up and I was like, holy, you know, what is this?
How did you I mean, I guess the first point interest for me is, do you have any kind of interest in filmmaking on the side or did you get help for for that side of it because it's really high quality.
Thanks so much. Well, first of all, thanks a lot for that, because that is a big compliment. Absolutely. And um no my my it's a bit of a complicated story and I don't really want to go into too much of the the sort of the grimy details, but my my love for video making actually came when I was recovering from a surgery, um which I mentioned in the video. And uh it was sort of a very difficult time for me, very, very, very difficult. And um and I watched a video online and funnily enough this is it was a French documentary. Although this is before I had any interest in French. I was still in the Japanese. Um and yeah, it was just it was it was such an inspirational documentary. It was just I don't know it really it changed, you know, it's not always that it's the best book or the best documentary, but sometimes it's just exactly what you need at that time, you know. Right. Yeah. And it just changed everything for me.
And so I started exploring on Vimeo. You know, I just found all these and I ended up with this, you know, folders and folders of bookmarked videos to where I realized when I needed motivation to write a paper, for example, I had videos that would motivate me to do this. If I was sad, I had videos. So I really realized the potential that videos have to um to sort of plant seeds in people's minds, to sort of inspire people. And so that's why I just decided I want to do this. So, you know, I have zero training, zero formal training with video work. Um it was just over time. I I took my student loans and I decided to invest in one little thing per semester. So the the big one was the camera, of course. That was that was a kicking the gut from account. But yeah, and so over time, I just uh I've just been studying film, you know, how to essentially make, you know, high quality video.
And so this show is actually been in the planning for four years now. And Wow. Uh four years ago, all it was supposed to be was a Japan vlog, you know, cuz I've seen all these. Uh yeah, so it's changed a lot, but I'm really excited with uh and I'm glad I waited so long to publish it because um I I did feel quite happy with with the overall product. I think it was a bit long and I've gotten some great feedback from people of how I could improve it. So, I'm just really excited for and I've got tons and tons of ideas for coming videos, so I'm really excited to get more stuff out there.
Yeah, excellent and and I I guess I'll I'll I'll tell you that I think you you did kind of a two-part video where the one was about your life in in general and then your life in Japan and then there was that intermezzo with you speaking the eight languages which was you know, the first reason I got to the video. But I think if you had separated those two, I think you would have had a a more powerful a little bit shorter like you say video. Um, and and that for me that was the only thing I would change. I mean, I think it's a really a brilliant piece.
And I mean, you're obviously very interested in the philosophy and, you know, the psychology of of everyday life. I mean, you talk a lot about home. Uh the the travel of I mean, that's the name of the episode. It's it's about finding home and one thing I want to ask you about that is is why is it so hard to find home in I mean, I'm sure some people do it, but I've heard this before that we live in a country, let's say I live in Denmark for instance, and I don't quite feel at home because, you know, I'm speaking English most of the time. That's not the native language of Denmark. I watch uh British television. I'm talking to American people, you know, I I'm eating Italian food. My the culture is just a mishmash of everywhere. How do we find why can't we find that home because obviously it's not a physical place. It is a is a place in your mind, isn't it?
Yeah, exactly. And I think a good way to think about this is for example, in I've you probably noticed in the video, especially the Japanese section, I love food. I'm very passionate about food. Right. Uh and I don't I don't just mean in the sense of eating it, you know, like and so um a great idea for me to think about a cuisine, for example. So it I think the cuisine should be an extension of the people in that country. It should be an extension of everything that that country stands for. It should its history, the way that those flavors have been built up and the way that the dishes have kind of developed and been created. And so if you have a lot of places like the States, like the um and even England nowadays, although I'm very passionate about English cuisine so don't bash it too much. Um.
Thanks.
But, you know, you sometimes you end up with uh like in England where you are, you're eating most of, you know, Indian food is is the most popular food in Britain, you know. And then you find yourself nowadays where fish and chips is what's apparently representing, you know, Britain as far as And in that sense too, it doesn't quite feel at home. You know, um because you're not really embracing what that country has to offer. Um and I'm not sure that makes any sense really, but
Well you you said in your video that you were when you came back to Britain after I think it was two years away or something, you felt like you were a foreigner in your own home.
Exactly. And I've actually
How how's that feeling for you?
It it's it is very odd. And England you know, you know, England's culture is is very sort of uh explosive. It changes very quickly. The music market is a good example where, you know, I went I left one time, came back a couple years later and we had Dubstep all of a sudden been creative and several sub genres, you know. So that that was a part.
But it was just because I left England with a certain image where I thought America was going to be and it really was the sort of the grass is green on the other side. I really thought for many years and I that that was just going to be a certain way and it just wasn't that way. Um especially because I, you know, I really did think it was going to be sort of big, you know, bright lights, huge buildings and I ended up on a one of the smallest towns in on in the mountains of North Carolina, you know. So the culture shock was incredible.
And so I really I realized um while I was there a lot of the things I loved about England, even though when I left England, I I almost hated it, you know. I just I was so obsessed with this idea of going to to America. So I I think and as I spent time there, I didn't come back for two years. And so, you know, when I people move on, you know. When I came, when I came back, I people, most of my friends had a lot of them I just hadn't managed to keep in contact with too well. Um they'd moved on to new things. They're all in university all over the country. Once again, the music was different. Everything was just different. And I I I think mainly because I had left as one person and I'd come back as such a different person. That it just it I needed time to adjust. And that my initial reaction was almost that I felt like a yeah, like a foreigner in my own my own country. Right. So it was a very bizarre and I've heard that described by a lot of people as well that have spent time abroad and come back. Right.
Because they're thinking they're going, oh, I'm going home. I know what this is like, but obviously you're a changed person after two years. So.
Exactly. Exactly, Chris. And and that goes back to your question about, you know, this whole home thing. It's that, you know, when we say we're going home, once again, we do often associate it with uh sort of the general place, the the general image of what it is Denmark or England or the states. But I find that when you when you go home and you come back to the people, because that's why I said in the video, people are such a huge part of that idea. Right. Then I find that I do feel at home then.
Like if I if I come back and I've got this a lovely warm welcome of the people I grew up with, the people I've spent time with, I, you know, people I've loved and shared great memories of, then I feel truly at home then. And then for me, of course, uh that's been a rarity because otherwise I wouldn't have made the video. Um but I but I have experienced it and it's a it's a great feeling. I don't know, would you agree with that? Have you had the same experience or?
Yeah, well, I haven't I only lived abroad for a year and and I was in England for for a year and Oh, wow. you know, I I I I don't know. My problem was that I I never really had a home really, you know. When when I was growing up, we moved a lot, our family and I guess that if you live in the same place physically for a a long time, you might also associated that mentally as home. But for me, I was just moving all the time and to be honest, I didn't even consider where I live at home because it was just such a fleeting moment. It seemed like at any time I could just move and I I did, you know, the London thing I think I I talked to a guy on a Monday and he said, do you want to come and work for me in London? And I said, you know, it took me a week to decide, but then I was on the plane, you know, day after. Wow.
So that just shows you that I had no emotional attachments to to what people would call home and I I I I struggle with the same thing now. What what am I really and where is home? It's it's the connection, isn't it? It's just not home. It's also where do you belong kind of thing. Exactly. I just don't I just don't know yet. I'm Exactly. searching for it.
Yeah, and and that's the reason why um that's what my show is built to deal with is because it once again, I think a lot of people, if not all of us do deal with this sort of a question on some level. Mhm. You know, uh even if you haven't really considered it. And so often times if you actually ask somebody these questions, you know, like, okay, what is home to you? You know, it's very hard to answer. So that's why my goal is to sort of um, you know, give like a sort of a first person presented narrative of what's that of my sort of journey uh to sort of answer these questions. So.
Right. And um if we move on to your, you know, continue with your show a little bit, you the overarching theme for me is definitely the balance of happiness and maybe not depression, but definitely some dark element, maybe loneliness or, you know, excluded in a sense. Yeah.
And why do you think that, you know, you have these great memories. You move you go to Japan and you have the great times of your life. And then it seems like it immediately follows that you get go into this kind of you isolate yourself and suddenly you just not doing, you know, as you were doing before. What what do you think causes that huge change almost overnight it seemed?
Yeah. Um is it's it's quite difficult. When before I left for Japan, I treated Japan my my sort of study abroad experience um as almost like a research sort of experiment. Um because I a lot of people were coming back from Japan um with quite negative experiences. Then they had lots of great ones, but most of those tended to be with the foreigners. And this is an issue not just in Japan, but I think especially in Japan. You know, they they tended to have all these stories about how, yeah, you know, you'll go into a store and they'll just they'll try to walk away from you. They'll only speak English to you, etcetera. Yeah. And and it and that is just something that a lot of people do experience.
So I spent the and after my surgery and I I I had my another chance to go to Japan. That was after twice I was unable to go. I actually decided to wait a whole extra year because I had heard all these stories and I wanted to spend the time on not only just trying to become as fluent in the language as I could, but I wanted to sort of theorize, you know, why are people having these issues? Um and how can I try to be different? And so and when I ended up getting an interpreting job all of a sudden, um it I think I feel like a lot of my theories were proved proven true.
Um because I I found that the ability not well, first of all, having the ability in the language is such a massive, massive thing. And it sounds obvious, but you you'll be or maybe not, but it's just surprising how many people go to places like Japan with very little knowledge of the place and they and they're surprised when people don't, you know, receive them well. But there's, you know, and then also just having the knowledge of the of the much, much, much deeper cultural things, historical aspects. And so it was great in Fukuoka. Um I went in working and so everybody I met was Japanese and I was in a working environment. Um in Fukuoka, there are a lot of foreigners there, but most of them are actually Chinese and Korean. So um they're not as used to Westerners, uh quote unquote. And so I got and I got treated in really almost like a Japanese person because as soon as I opened my mouth and spoke Japanese, they just wanted to talk to me. They wanted they were interested. And then after a couple of hours of that, it got past that. It got past the novelty of being a foreigner and it became now we're just friends. And it was just so great.
But in Kyoto, I was studying abroad. And so all of a sudden I went from being in an environment where I was one of the only people we um it didn't even matter that I was a foreigner. I went to being in an environment in um where first of all, Kyoto has millions and millions of Westerners everywhere anyway for tourism. And I was living right in the center of that. Uh my university was across the street from the old Imperial Palace. Right. Um but also not only that, you're you're now in a program surrounded by thousands of foreign students that are there. Um and so that was a big part of it because it was uh the environment the the Japanese people in the in Kyoto and and my university were much less actually it was very segregated in a way. It was uh in the in the dining hall, you would just see table upon table upon table of sort of Japanese people and then you would see the foreign tables. And it was just a very it was just a much harder for me to sort of get myself in.
And I I was succeeding, but then I had these financial issues and stuff. And it became very difficult because a lot of the Japanese friends I had um they they, you know, they wanted to go out to these all you can eat, all you can drink night, you know, every night it's like $40. And I I can't drop $40 every night. No.
Um but on a positive note, these the theories still did prove true. A lot of the tricks I have for meeting people in a foreign country still worked. I met some really and I had a couple of really amazing friends I met even in Kyoto. I mean, to this day I talk to them every day. It was just that the overall experience sort of yeah, with the financial difficulties and just the the drastic change in environment. I think that was the shocker that really sent things, you know, a different direction. Right.
So would you call that a a top tip, you know, every time every week I try to find a top tip. And I think this week it might be if you want to really learn a language and really immerse yourself, try to get away from the kind of I think some people call it the Xpat bubble where you are in a an area or an environment full of foreigners in the country. Right. Maybe try to find a more natural environment for the country.
Yeah, and there are lots of great ways to do that. My favorite tip for meeting um foreigners excuse me, for meeting native speakers when you go to the country Right. Um is actually asking for help. I mean and it sounds simple, but I'm telling you I met so many people that they'd been there for six, seven, eight, nine months and they still hadn't hardly ever interacted with a Japanese person. Right.
Um we had a survey in my class where the teacher asked how many of you guys have Japanese friends? And all my classmates were Chinese and Korean except for I think one other. Uh and only me and one other girl actually raised her hand. No one else had Japanese friends. Um and a lot of them have been there for a year. And so this is why I say it sounds obvious, but apparently it's not. Um it's asking for help.
I'm one of my best friends I met in Japan actually uh in Kyoto. I I I met because I literally I knew how to use the copy machine, but I saw her there and I thought, so I just asked her, excuse me, you know, how do you use the copy machine? I'm so stuck. I made a few jokes. And because you're a foreigner, it's and if you speak the language well, it's so exotic to them. It you know, they're just fascinated. And it just starts to conversation.
Um, in Fukuoka, I I got such a boost to my Japanese after the first week because I got lost a thousand times. Sometimes on purpose. And so I was constantly asking for directions. So I was constantly having the same conversations over and over again. So it really boosted um my Japanese. So that's that's one of my top tips. I will call that the week's top tip then, you know, ask for help. I have so.
Yeah, do it and even if you don't need it, you know, um ask for help. Most people are glad to help you. And like I said, it's a great technique for building a sort of your command of the language because I do think that the fluency is kind of a is a separate skill in itself, I think, you know, you can be very, very fluent um at speaking with a small vocabulary, which isn't necessarily good, but you can you can come across as very well spoken if you have a practiced sort of set of topics and vocabulary um or you can know tons and tons of vocab like you've mentioned on previous episodes and still struggle to order a coffee. So Right. It's a great way of developing that sort of fluency and that command of the language. Daily speaking.
Yeah, and once again, having those same sort of conversations over and over again because you're asking the same questions and then you have the same, you know, oh, where are you from? I'm from England. Right. You know, um so I actually got to where I actually had to slow down because I I had told people that I was from England and that I've been living in the states for five years. So many times that I started to say it so quickly that even native speakers weren't picking up. Because I I had said it so many times, you know. So yeah, it's it's an excellent way of Right. Great. giving yourself that confidence.
I've noticed that. I don't know if you know um a guy named Moses McCormick. He does these Okay, good. He does these point of view uh things where he's out in the field talking to uh to native speakers. And one thing I've noticed is that I mean, it's it's a small thing, but it seems like people from Asia and I speaking, you know, Chinese, Japanese, and all these languages, they're much more excited about when somebody knows their language than European languages. It seems like, you know, if you meet a just say a French person in in France and you try to speak their language, they're like, oh, you speak my language, you know. I mean, obviously that's a bit of a stereotype, but in in Europe it just seems like, okay, you you learned my language, good thing. But it but when you see those Japanese people in Moses' video, they just light up when he starts speaking Japanese to them. And is that something you've found as well?
I would agree, yeah, for sure. Because and of course, the obviously the main reason would be just the it's it's much it's so rare, you know. And you'll you will find that especially in the Japanese people and I I would imagine other sort of people on the from the Asian continent that you there's that initial, even if you just say anything, Konnichiwa, they're going to be like, oh my god, you speak Japanese so well, you know. But you you do notice a couple of different steps where it starts to go from them just being like, oh my god, to where they're actually where they almost fall over. You know, like I had and Japanese people are so funny in that way because they they're so expressive in in certain ways when they get surprised and they make these funny sounds. And I had a few people that literally almost like fell over on the ground because they just would and they were just like, how did you you know, so yeah, it's it's a lovely feeling. It's very nice.
And um and that's actually how I got my job in the cafe. I just went over to the the the manager and just started chatting to her. And she was just all sort of surprised and so I was like, are you hiring? She's, you know, like, oh, we are, we are, but I was like, oh, because I'm a foreigner. She was like, well, technically you could, but he yeah, she was just really sort of discombobulated. And So I just kind of kept on chatting to her next thing, you know, I started I didn't have the job because in Japan that is a very interesting thing, getting a job. Um but I at least had started the process. So.
Well, fantastic. Maybe if uh maybe we should just take a step back and and and ask, how did you get involved with Japanese particularly all the way in the beginning? What what what where did it come from?
Um to to be very honest with you, I actually and the funny thing is I my the reason why I have an old version of my show, right. And uh that it was much it was terrible. But I I kept a couple episodes on there and one of them is the old episode two where I actually made a goal board and it was right when I started learning Japanese, you know. Right. And I started there saying, I've decided to learn Japanese, um uh but I'm not new Chinese, but I think Japanese and I talked about how one day I'm going to go study abroad. So it's quite funny to watch.
But when I chose Japanese, I actually simply just wanted something a little bit more difficult than Spanish. Right. So it was just that I I I really enjoyed um Spanish. And I wasn't even that good at it really. I once again my Spanish I was my vocabulary was actually very limited. My listening was was uh quite terrible actually. But I had a very for some reason, I was very quick and very sort of good at speaking with what I had, you know. So so I was able to really have some fun times just despite my actual low overall level. And so I just I find it quite easy though to to integrate. I also my appearance, you know, especially when I get a bit of tan, people ask me am I Italian, am I Spanish, am I Mexican and all So it was easy to blend in.
So I decided I wanted something, you know, like a bit more of a challenge. Um So that was I I just went for I I debated over Chinese or Japanese for quite some time. And then I funnily enough I saw a video blog from a Japanese guy out of the blue and it was I was like, wow, this is awesome. Right. Um I had no idea what I was getting myself into and it turns out that I really had no I thought I had an idea about Japanese culture, but I I did not, you know. Um Right. You kind of you need to experience a foreign culture to.
You do. And that is the beauty of it. And that I mean, and I think that's what gets people not you know, well, addicted for lack of a better word for now, you know, where to these to this experience is because what when you you walk into an expecting one thing and you when you just, you know, you end up head first into the deep end of this unbelievable new world, you know, it's such a invigorating experience. And I think that that's if people get to that point, that's when they're kind of hooked, you know, and that that's what I think a lot of us sort of language enthusiasts really live for, you know. Is that sort of and that's why we that's why learning multiple languages is so much fun because you get to experience it over and over and over. Yes. Exactly.
That's really good. And um yeah, so we already talked about, you know, you how you socialized or the lack of. Um but where do you find the the motivation to learn more and new languages? Is is it the people like you alluded to in your show or do you have any other kind of underlying motivational factors that we haven't really touched on?
Um it really is actually. It it is very much about the people. Um and the way that I learn in language in the way I add languages, I should say since that was a I think more of your question, um as well is I I believe it's perfectly fine to study multiple languages simultaneously or even rather um interchangeably. But I believe as long as you have control over your sort of lust, you know, for and your um and secondly if you just follow what you are what you're motivated to do because of course a big issue in language learning is motivation.
And so basically to answer your question, I suppose um I just get inspired. I just I get exposure, you know. So I'll be exposed to um So, you know, Hindi was a good one when I started learning Hindi. Um which I haven't really done very well out so far, but, you know, it was because I was I love Indian food, you know, and I was going to an Indian restaurant a lot here, the little cafe and it was just for me. It was like, what an opportunity. How could I even how could I come to this place so often and not even start. So I did and it was my motivation for that was because I wanted to order my food in Hindi and I wanted to gradually gain an understanding. So that one day down the road I could actually pursue it.
Um and same thing. So it's different for every language. It's just that I get exposure to one and I just I just love it. And so that's why I have to be careful nowadays because um I get exposure to a new one and I get excited. I say nope, nope, nope, no more right now, you know, so.
Yeah, you kind of have to restrict yourself in a way because you I mean, some people are different, but I feel like it's a bit of a waste to learn the very basics of say 20 30 languages compared to learning maybe a handful of 10 languages to the because going from, you know, the basics to some kind of fluency maybe just a limited fluency. That's not really the biggest leap, but if you keep changing the language then you're never going to make that leap. Um.
Exactly. Yeah, and I and I so for me, it's like then the way I learn the because of this way that I do it. Um and also once just to really quickly conclude that question that you had is that in regards to my motivation, I do a lot of dreaming. Uh daydreaming actually. And so I think that's incredibly important.
I do also think it's important you know, the first step I think in any endeavor is you need to have point A, which is where you are now, and point B, which is where you want to be. And I learned that from Luka Toma, who never knew who that is, but he's a great guy. Um and he was telling me this. And so it's very important to have that because I think a lot of people just kind of go into things with no real sort of goal. Um and there is a valid point people make, which is, well, if you just if you just look at point B, it's like a mountain and you're going to freak out. So This is why but the first step though for me is to identify where you actually want to be.
Because and for me, that is such a huge motivational factor. I mean, for me with my um with the Japanese, I mean, that Japanese language literally got me through college, I think because of uh, you know, and I don't want to go into the, but you know, I had the homeless thing and then I had my, you know, my illness with the hospital and other thing. I mean, there were so many things that were going on. And I but that goal that I had of going to Japan. I visualizing that end goal, me being there, talking to people, making jokes, making Japanese people laugh and seeing the face, you know, that it's unbelievable. That gave me just like a ferocious level of motivation that just never died down.
And so, while I think it's important to then break it down and say, okay, now here are my more realistic steps. The way I motivate myself uh to stay with languages is that that sort of end huge that that dream. And I just I daydream a lot because the more I do it, the more real it gets and that, you know.
Amazing. And of course, you know, I I totally agree with the you need to have a vision, but you shouldn't work day-to-day with that vision, you know. you shouldn't say I want to write a book. That's not that's not your goal really. Of course, that's your vision, but everyday your goal is let me write 500 words or 200 words, whatever you feel comfortable with. Yeah. You have to break it down into manageable chunks. I think that's the the kind of the general wisdom on the on the area where some people are just like, I want to learn Spanish, Italian, and Chinese, and it's like, well, what about if you just said I want to learn one language and then said I want to learn 10 words a day and I want to read 50 words a day. Break it down into manageable chunks.
Exactly. And and I think that's why I I never understand these posts which I see on forums and I apologize if any listeners have done this, but, you know, the posts where it's like, hey guys, you know, I want to learn a new language. What should I do? And it's just like, because there's no connection then and there. Um and although I I suppose it could work because if you I guess if someone makes a suggestion, you might look into it and then make a discovery. But um so there is some merit to it, but but I think that before you really get started, you need to explore it. And you need to find a connection with it that's going to keep you because otherwise there's not going to be like you said, if you're just racking up languages, you're just I just want to learn 10 languages and that's why I can show off. Right.
Um because that really is. And that's why my video I tried to make it very clear. I it was 10 languages I went through in the video, but I made I tried to make it very clear that like half of those were just like the basics, just like, you know, and um and so it's not it's not to show off, it's just because that's where my motivation carries me. Um and then I have to limit that. So, yeah, I I do agree. It's if you just say I'm going to learn, you know, French, Spanish, German, Italian, whatever. Um yeah, it's I don't know, it's you need to break it down. It is and so and then even with that one language, you know, you need to break it down. So that's why my language learning process is sort of in phases. And so each phase is my sort of my next realistic step, you know, so it's like like you said, it's important to have that big end goal and it's important to work with that and develop it, but it's also important to work with those much smaller realistic goals. Right.
And yeah, I I totally agree with the posts on the Facebook. I mean, some of them are just, I mean, again, you know, if somebody's listening to this and and done the post, I'm sorry, but you can't ask anyone else why what language you want to learn. You know, you can get you can get objective input as to is it a good idea to learn this or that or if I'm learning Chinese for the first time, should I learn Mandarin or Cantonese or a dialect? Yeah, precisely. That's a good question to ask, but asking, should I learn Russian, Spanish, Italian, German, or French first? First, I mean, it's just such a problematic question. And sadly, a lot of people I think maybe people are getting a little bit um maybe they get they see videos like, you know, Benny Lewis or even Moses, you know, they speak so many languages that people just assume that, well, if I want to speak 10 languages, I better start with five, right? Or, you know.
Exactly.
And Anthony Lauder had a fantastic presentation. I saw at the Polyglot Conference and he made a good point where, well, I'm not sure he said it quite in this way, but it's the whole idea of, well, you add one, you know, so you start with you how do you speak two languages? Well, you start with one and you add one, you know, etcetera. It's not you you you don't just start with nine as a goal. How do I learn 10 languages? Well, you learn nine and then you add one.
Exactly and go backwards, you know. He's a funny guy. Yeah. He's a really I love I love the way he does his presentations. But exactly, so it's just uh so my another top I guess a top tip for people like that that do have that issue is rather than I don't know, I mean there is some merit to it, but I would just, you know, find some TV series, experiment, dabble around and just, you know, watch a German show, watch a French show, watch a Japanese movie. I, you know, and then just see if something's part, you know, because there will be a spark. If you if you and that will carry you, you know.
Yeah, I think so. Or maybe your grandmother's half German and she speaks it a little bit or, you know, maybe there's some kind of heritage somewhere that that could make it very interesting for you. But just learning a language randomly and I mean, I guess that's what you kind of did for Japanese, but I I don't think there's a problem in in picking one kind of out of the blue that you kind of feel like is is is good for you because it's it's not a commitment, you know, you don't have to if you if you decide after a month, okay, the cult I I can't identify with this. I don't like the literature. You know, if you don't like any of it, just switch, you know, there's no it's not a it's not a contract or anything. Yeah.
And I'll be honest with you, actually, I have had language quote unquote, they're not really failures, but I'll just, you know, I've had where like languages I've started and just I didn't I just couldn't continue it. It just Right. I didn't have it, you know.
Um and a good and one was it was what the biggest one was Chinese, actually. It was Mandarin, I should say. Because and the and it was because the reasons weren't correct. It was I I did it because all my classmates were Chinese. I was hearing Chinese all the time. Um because of course the way it works, usually, well, you know, the upper levels of these courses are always usually always full of either, you know, Chinese or Koreans predominantly. Right. Um and so I was just like, wow, this is a great opportunity. You know, I could learn there, so I could do well. Exactly. There's tons of uh Chinese students at my home university. But I just found that wasn't enough for me, you know, you know, because I didn't have a real connection with the and it's not to say I wouldn't in the future. And so I I just couldn't force myself to to do that, you know. Right.
So you well that's fine, you know. I don't I don't see anything as failures either because it's Exactly. That's why I hate that word, but it was just I've heard people ask a lot online, you know, about people's language failures. And so that's which I once again, I don't think it's a very good way to put it, but I think if you went to if you went to high school elementary school and you had a language a foreign language, then I think probably 99% of students failed the language. Exactly. Because we just don't learn enough to speak it. So.
And me being a great like I said, that French absolutely whipped me when I was.
Well, I had the same with French, you know. I I I I literally quit the class and and that was it was it was kind of an elective, but I I had been studying French for probably a year and a half, just in class, of course. I never studied it outside of school because I just had no real interest in it. But, you know, a year and a half later and I was so hopeless that I decided to just quit. I wouldn't even want to take those two weekly classes and just sit there and, you know, just listens and passively or I just decided that it was more it was better spent my time to go to, you know, the gaming cafe or whatever. Whatever we did back in the day, but um yeah, it's definitely
And that's great motivation too. Because like my my I look back and I just think, oh my god, like what an idiot, you know, for me thinking about me, like, I even had a chance to study abroad in in France one time. My dad even said he would he would pay for, you know, these were the days when I could just when it was as easy as saying like, hey dad, I got a letter from school, they said I can go to France for 200 pounds and for like a whole week, two weeks. And I didn't do it. I mean, but now I'm like I look back thinking, what an idiot. But at the same time, those are the things that that drive me to do better now, you know. Of course. The fact that I went to France so many times with my father and didn't could learn a word of French, you know, I made a decision next time I go to France, I want to be I want to be very fluent in French. Yeah. And I love it. I'm loving it, you know. And um how fun.
And so once again, each language though, and that's why I told the stories. And I think everyone's got these stories. Each language I'm learning has a different story behind it. And and that's the way it should be. It shouldn't just be you know, I shouldn't say, you know, across the board, but for me, it shouldn't just be every language has the same reason which is I wanted to add one, you know. Right. You shouldn't you shouldn't pull one from the hat and just go with that one. Yeah.
Um, I want to talk to you a little bit more about the technical aspects of your language, but before we do that, I just wanted to round off the kind of the documentary and the the life feeling. Uh there was one question I had where you you were shown, you said you were in Japan and you're having a rough time and then you said you started studying languages for eight to 10 hours a day, like every living moment. Do you think Yeah. Can you maybe explain the feeling behind was it was it a defensive reaction to how you were feeling or was it an inspirational moment, I guess, is my question.
Actually, it was a escape. It was uh I mean, I, you know, loneliness is a is a pretty can do some really severe things to the to your to you, you know, anyone that's been lonely knows that. Um and we've all experienced that I think to some degree. But I was I got into the point where, you know, my finances were just so poor. You know, I was eating once a day for a while and this kind of stuff. I mean, so I just it was and I was just it was the more sort of bad the worse it got, the more I just was isolated. And then I started to, you know, my anyway.
So the point was that I couldn't focus on actually Japanese. It was quite it was a very odd feeling where my I hated the classes. Like I mean, I just thought it was useless. I mean, um I, you know, it was and I I feel bad because I shouldn't well, I hate to down the, you know, a system or talk I don't like to talk negatively about things. But um I just found that I was learning so much more with my own methods. And um and I was just progressing so quickly, but the schoolwork was holding me back. And it got to where I just couldn't stand it. The methodology was just so useless to me and I I spent a lot of time in Japan um researching polyglots, for example, researching like, okay, how are these guys doing? You know.
And and so what happened was that studying these other languages was a way for me to escape what was going on around me. It was a way for me to escape that loneliness. It was because when I when I'm studying, for some reason, when I I can even at times, like when I just can't do anything else, I can I can almost always find motivation to study foreign language. I just love it that much.
And so, um, so because I was once again, I was speaking Japanese all the time, every day. I was working in Japanese. All my classes were in Japanese. When I came home, I wanted something else. Um and so I yeah, I picked up a I started French again and I just fell in love with it. And then I, you know, got curious and I started Norwegian actually and I just I loved I don't know why. I just loved Norwegian. It was so much fun to learn.
I don't know, man. Danish is better.
You know, I had a it was it was it was debated, you know, it was it was a but I I promise I do plan to to go to Danish eventually, absolutely. But uh, but you know, it was just that I just grew and grew and grew. So like I said, the eight to 10 hours a day part it was just that it was a I came home and I just loved that. That was my escape and I just loved the feeling of progress. I loved knowing that what I'm doing. And funny thing is, I didn't even just do that. When I study languages, I'll often I I like pre-living skills. I have so many other hobbies. I'll um I'll often be like making string out of like plants and stuff while I'm studying languages because I'm just I just I find it fun. So I love that feeling of just, you know, knowing that I'm doing something productive.
And so you know, once again, when you study that much, and I did the same for Japanese actually. It wasn't any different. It was it was about nine hours a day, probably learning Japanese. You you the the the improvement is so exponential that you you see such a huge improvement every day that that is almost its own motor because there it is truth. I mean it's it's even laws of I mean it's easier the faster you go, the easier it is to go faster. Right. You know, just like a plane accelerating from naught to sixty, it's going to be much faster to go from sixty to eighty and etcetera. So, um, you know, I mean so the the more momentum you build, that was so I just ended up on this massive mountain of just sort of snowballing momentum. And it it was it was an interesting time. Right.
I mean, of course it has to be said that it it does sound a little bit like an maybe an unhealthy obsession if you had to be totally honest. I mean, it's it's nice to have the passion and the drive to do it for so long, but I mean, you must you must have neglect some basic human kind of natural instincts, you know, maybe socialize. You didn't socialize at much at that time. And you said eating, you know, properly and is that is that the kind of the um the price to pay when you're that into it?
I think so. I mean in this case, it was a bit backwards actually. It was more that I didn't have the money to eat more than certain times of day. So it was more a way to keep my mind off that.
But I will say when I was doing Japanese though, that is exactly what you're talking about because and that's what I mentioned in the video. My unlike my sort of just my drive for Japanese and the amount of time I put into it really did I had to sacrifice a lot, you know. Um I sacrificed a lot of good times and probably friendships that I could have made and it could have grown and it you know, these things and that was that was one of my I definitely a regret about that.
Um and you're absolutely correct. I mean, that was just it was a goal I had uh and I wanted it bad, you know. And so, once again, just really what I mentioned in the video a lot is that I realized that, you know, a lot of my life I had spent first it was basketball, then it was Japanese. And yeah, it's not once again, it's not worth it, really, even if you do achieve the end goal if you end up alone, you end up standing alone and you have no one really to uh to share those memories with, the failures, the successes, the ups and downs. You know, it's just not worth it. Yeah.
And speed is is one of the other things that constantly keeps mentioned. It's like how can I learn this the fastest. And Yeah. and I hate that. You know. For you, for you that would probably be your answer would probably be, well, spend 10 hours a day doing it, but I think it's way better to just take a very casual approach and say, well, do I have an hour in the evening or an hour in the morning or whatever? You know, learn the language in a year and a half or whatever, whatever it takes you. Don't don't be pressured by these, you know, hype about be fluent in six weeks in your sleep or something, you know. Yeah.
Well, and actually I would my old answer would have been what you said, but now I would definitely I would not tell anybody to do it for that, uh, or if I want to, I mean, you but that's that would not be my answer the the quickest way to do thing. I don't think that that um it's like you said, it's not really not necessarily healthy unless you're getting paid for it like Steve Kaufman often mentions how he was getting paid to learn Chinese that amount of time. So that's kind of different. Um but yeah, but now I would not I would not that would not be the way my methods have changed so much.
Hello guys. This is Kris Broholm. Just wanted to thank you for listening to this first part of this two-part series with Robin MacPherson. We got into a lot of detail here about general language learning, cultures, and also about psychological and emotional factors when we embrace new cultures and languages.
Next week, you're going to hear from Robin about just exactly how he learns languages and what he's learned in his his aspirations towards learning all these fancy new languages. And if it's later than May 16th, then the episode will have already gone live and you can just jump straight into episode 10. This is episode nine and of course all the resources and links will be in actualfluency.com/09. So thank you again for listening and I'll see you next week.
Thank you for listening to the Actual Fluency podcast. For more information, be sure to check out actualfluency.com. Until next time, enjoy learning and have a great day.