Amarinder Grewal: Pidgins and Creoles

Welcome to the actual Fluency podcast. Each week you'll find inspirational motivational interviews with some of the world's best language learners, industry experts, all trying to help you to learn foreign languages better, faster and more efficiently. And here we go. This episode is brought to you by the Italki Goals competition where you can win up to $500 of Italki credits and $500 towards a flight ticket of your choice. All you have to do is take a picture or record a video of you saying your language goals for 2019 and sharing them with Italki on social media. For full details on how to enter the competition, go to actualfluency.com/goals.

Sure, thank you. Um, first of all, thank you for for having me. Big fan of the show. Um, my name is uh, Amarinder Grewall. Um, I live here in the United States. I was born and raised uh in the United States. Uh, for those who may not be familiar with the country too much, it is truly a multilingual country. And uh, I grew up in a multilingual family. Um, I grew up in Detroit, Michigan, which has uh, always welcomed uh immigrants when they've come to this country, uh, particularly because it has a large manufacturing base. So, you know, just in my lifetime alone, I've seen many different ethnic groups uh make their first uh, you know, uh uh take their first steps into the country through Detroit. Uh, I grew up with many people who came from Southeast Asia, from Laos, from Vietnam, uh after some of the troubles that happened in the Balkans, a lot of folks, uh Bosnians, uh things of that nature, um, and unfortunately they had some issues in their homelands so they, so they emigrated uh into the Detroit area. And that was that was a great experience for me. Um, then there's also a large, you know, Middle Eastern population as well, because I heard these languages all day, every day. I mean, walking in the halls at school, I was hearing different languages spoken all over the place. Obviously, we had the the common language of English. Um, so languages have surrounded me in that sense, uh, growing up in in such a diverse town.

Cool. And uh I can't wait to hear more about it because uh I I think I had about half an hour of it in uh I did a couple of semesters of uh a degree in linguistics. So there was like a half an hour topic on it. So I I don't really know anything uh mainly because I was quite distant at that time.

So, yeah, it it um, Detroit is a is a border town in essence. I mean, we're right on the border with Canada. We're just a a bridge or a tunnel away. I I took many trips into French Canada, which is, if anybody hasn't been to Montreal or Quebec and and you have the opportunity, definitely give it a shot. Canada in general, but those towns are just just amazing places to visit. So, I wanted to uh when I was younger, learn a little bit. Uh, so it kind of piqued my interest. You have to choose languages in in high school. Unfortunately, the instruction wasn't the best, but, you know, I chose French, I got a little bit of a introduction there and and travels later, I just thought, you know, hey, I I like the literature. Um, I like traveling to many countries, which happen to have large French-speaking populations, and that's not just France. Um, I've traveled to a dozen plus countries. Um, I have lived in the Middle East. I have uh worked all around the States, you know, traveled all around Europe, uh been to Africa, and uh where French is heavily spoken uh as well. So, the travels uh and language learning kind of go hand in hand. Obviously, you want to be respectful to the to the host uh country that you're in and at least give it a shot, give it a go and and speak the language that's spoken there by the people. So.

Yeah, very cool. I was in Montreal in 2016 for the first time. I absolutely wonderful town and amazing. I would live there if I could, you know. That's a a great place uh and and it's it's got that mix of cultures as well. Like you see all kinds of cuisines and uh different neighborhoods and they all have different great things to offer. And and most of all, I think they all just share that Canadian hospitality, you know. I I really felt very welcomed when I came there.

Yeah, and I I felt the same way. I felt the same way.

Yeah, and and of course we've got the bonus now that if you're into languages, you can go to Langfest in in August. Uh, if if anyone's listening and and have the opportunity to go, I I highly recommend that. It's a good excuse to explore a city you maybe haven't been to and hang out with a bunch of uh language learning people, you know, if they're all yeah, extremely nice people and there's some interesting talks going on, some good walks and and group events. So if if anyone's interested in that, it's uh langfest.org, I think is the website. And uh they have some early bird pricing as well. So I highly recommend that and I hope I can go back this year. Of course, having to travel the Atlantic is a little bit inconvenient at times, but uh if I can, I definitely will.

From where I live in the Midwest, I think I I I I actually did go in 2016 my or not 20 not 2017 myself, and, um, the drive was about somewhere about 12 to 14 hours. Um, so it's not it's not too bad, and I can still get there. So I I I hope to to make it there myself. amazing town, and obviously, uh, uh, interesting uh, venue as well.

Yeah, that'd be great if we could both make it there and meet up in person. We should uh submit a talk request to talk about. Maybe Creole languages.

Yeah.

I that's they would really love that, I think. Definitely. Um, yeah, so for the people listening, maybe we should just start all the way at the basics. So, so what are, I'm sure they've heard the word Creole maybe or the word Pidgin even, not the bird, but the language. But so what does it actually mean and and and how did you first come across it?

Yeah, so, uh, the American Linguistics Society, I was kind of doing some research and they kind of pointed me to Ethnolog, uh, and I'll give you some links, so you can put this in your show notes. But there's roughly 7,000 languages, 7,000, 7,100, uh, that are spoken on Earth. And these languages that are I guess we'll be talking about today make up a very small portion of that, from what I can tell. I can't find hard and fast numbers, but it appears to be a very small subsection of that larger 7,000. Um, as as I mentioned before, big history buff, and and when you read about history and you read about, uh, military history in particular, something that I I I've read extensively on, uh, since I was a child. Uh, I also served in the military. So, definitely an interesting topic for me. And invariably what what you get to see is that when many of these colonial powers during the quote unquote scramble for Africa, and and and scramble for some of these other areas trying to get colonies there, these European nations, pretty much starting from the Age of Exploration on, uh, so 15th, 16th century on, traveled around the world, made contact with with many populations they really had no direct contact with before. And that contact obviously necessitates a need to be able to communicate with each other. And that is kind of where these languages come from. Uh, sometimes it's, um, some of these cultures like the Portuguese and Dutch, I believe, you know, it's it's more commercial and trading in nature with their, um, for you know, for example, with Japan, uh, with the Empire of Japan, they had a a pretty solid, I believe, trading network there. And sometimes, unfortunately, it was, um, more so, uh, conquered people. Uh, for example, you know, the the British conquered most of South uh, South Asia, which today would be Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Nepal, uh, that area. So, again, with the whole military history thing in mind, these colonial powers tended to also raise local levies. They would raise they would have soldiers from from these colonies, um, because case in point England. England is a very small country. Um, the population is not large, but their empire spanned the world. I mean, there's a saying I read once that the sun never set on the on the British Empire. Right. Yeah. So, unfortunately, with with very few men at their disposal in their military, they would raise these local troops. As did the French and the Dutch, and uh there would be a need to communicate military orders to them. And I was particularly interested in some of these units, uh, such as the the the African Tirailleurs, uh, and things that nature. So, that's kind of where my my first uh interest in this got piqued.

Mhm.

Yeah. So, um, you know, again, that doesn't always happen. Uh, I I've I've read it referred to as the post-Creole continuum. So, it's a lot of interesting labels in this in this in this world of this this specific corner of linguistics. But, um, that's that's kind of the the basics. Yeah.

Yeah. It's really cool. Um, one thing I I was wondering a little bit that I've never heard about is how does it actually how long does it actually take uh if uh are there any like ideas of let's say two languages or two groups of people meet to form or to start this like pidgin process where they need to communicate but none of them understand anything. I'm just wondering that's the fascinating part to me too.

Yeah, that's the fascinating part to me too.

Yeah, I'm like, what imagine yourself doing that. Like going to, I don't know, China or going to some country where you have no idea about the language, not one word, and then just speaking your language to that person. Like that would I just don't even see how that would happen. It must take It must take months and years.

Yeah, I was talking to Yeah, I was talking to my wife about the same thing. I'm like, you know, I I've I've always been interested in how they develop because I guess if me and you, if you only spoke, you know, uh, let's say you only spoke German to me, and I, in turn, only spoke Spanish to you, obviously there's there's probably some similarities, but we probably start off by saying, picking up an object and saying this is a book in my language. Right. And and I I I would imagine it start from there. But and when you add in some of these other historical dynamics and the transactional based uh nature of some of these relationships, um, you know, it it would have been fascinating how that would have developed. And I another thing to point out here is that these are very different from auxiliary languages and con constructed languages in that I don't know too much about those languages, but from what I've read, you know, there's there's a large amount of design that goes on there for, you know, the constructed nature of it, and then over time, you know, I've heard there's been large group gatherings of folks who are interested in these language to kind of tweak the language even more. Yeah. Um, whereas these languages, yeah, and these languages kind of just work in in their natural environment, uh, and and they grow from there. And, uh, you know, it's it's a fascinating process. But yeah, that is something that's piqued my interest a lot, and I want to learn more about that for sure.

Does you do like an experiment to see but I guess I guess things are easy because you can point at something and and keep saying the same word and eventually people will know, okay, that's the thing you're talking about. But I'm thinking like verbs must be tricky or like any esoteric feeling. Like you can't there's no metaphors or anything in a pidgin, I imagine. Because how could you ever explain that.

Yeah. Yeah, I I I would I would agree with you. Maybe in the definitely probably in Creole, uh, but but in a pidgin, I would I would say I would agree with you 100%. And what what you uh what you've been saying kind of brings something to to my mind. I I've read many a journal article and and and book on this where the author is is implying that explicitly or not that the study of these languages is important because it gives us a look at the development of language in humanity in general. Um, so, there's it it's you know, I I think linguistic uh uh linguistics departments probably across the world look at these languages, see these languages to try to figure out, you know, how language develop in general. So, um, definitely an important piece in that regard. But I I agree. It some of those larger concepts, more philosophical things, uh, definitely have to they they would have to be a lot of friction. They would have to be a lot of friction.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it it trial and error and and lots of time. I guess the languages that we have, I mean, even these established languages are changing all the time. Like, um, you know, if you compare English 100 years ago to English today, it's night and day. Many of the European languages are losing their formal aspects, like Danish, for instance. German, a little bit less so, but like it's happening where you used to have this very formal code of speaking similar to Japanese or like in Russian, I think it's pretty established still that you if you don't know the person you speak in a very formal way, you have the formal variants, but like in my lifetime, the Danish one is almost gone. Um, just like that, and that's only been, you know, 30 years or so. It was on the way out when I was growing up. I was one of the I guess I I was employed in like a a nice supermarket where they insisted on, if it was an older person, you'd call them by the by the polite one. But today, you can say anything. You just say, hey you, you know. Um, so the language is always developing, which is interesting. Uh, but I guess it's a different it's different and it's the same, I I guess. I don't know how to look at that.

Yeah, I mean, uh, languages I mean, my personal view on languages and development of language, I agree with you 100%. Obviously, technology has has just changed everything. Um, in the last few decades, um, not not just for folks like us who who are interested in learning languages and can use all these neat tools, but just the way folks communicate in general. And and what's I mean, I'm sure you you've come across this. English is king in in in the world. I mean, English is being learned heavily. Um, English is in every corner of the world. I've traveled everywhere, and and that's been a good thing. If I couldn't speak to them in one language, I almost always I could find somebody who speaks English. I mean, I I even read a stat recently that said most of the most English speakers in the world live in India. Right. Because of the size of the population. So, Yeah. Um, I think there's going to be probably a shift in the next 50 years to where English becomes more and more dominant than it already is. And, you know, some of these other languages are are they going to, you know, are they going to shift and become more English-like, or they're just going to, I mean, I've I've been to Europe, and and I'll I'll never forget the day I was in Germany, my wife and I, and there's a young lady. I needed directions. And, um, you know, I'm I'm trying with the best as I can in German to speak to her, and she's like, you know, do you speak English? I'm like, yes, I do. She says, I speak very bad English. Uh, and then she goes off to rattle directions in in perfect English. I was like, yes, your English is actually very very good. We had a little chat. So, um, yeah, I think English is just taking everything over. And I think some of the interesting things I've seen come out of France, um, from the Académie Française trying to, you know, have French become uh have a little bit stronger presence in the world. I think those are interesting initiatives, not 100% sure how successful they'll be. Right. Um, but I I think

Yeah, I'm thinking about it in in Danish as well, just as a, it's a good example. Maybe it's because it's a small language, so it's quite uh, pliable or moldable, you know, you can kind of shift it a little bit because English words are just creeping in all over the place. Like, uh, yeah, so if, you know, if if you say something to a friend, obviously these are this is what younger people say because the older generation have a different almost a different vernacular. But the younger people, uh, they could, if you say something good, like you have a good experience or something, the answer might just be nice. Like the word nice or, um, you know, it and in many cases, it it kind of it it explores or shows some weaknesses in the original language, I would say. Because people, if there was if they know both words, the Danish and the English one, and they still choose the English one, it must be because the English one more correctly translate that feeling they're having at that moment. Which is what Yeah. Which is what languages are are are doing, you know. We're not we're not translating from our our head word for word, we're basically translating emotion or feeling or whatever our brains are up to. Um, so it is an interesting discussion. I would love to hear from people how it's working for their language. Like their native language, is is English creeping in there as well. Because I know in Danish, it definitely is a lot. And, uh, you know, everyone speaks English there as well. So, I don't I don't know if it I don't think it's ever going to like take over or anything, but it might definitely change the language so much that they have to rewrite some of the grammar rules and maybe send out some official, you know, guidelines, which happens, you know, occasionally. I think Danish had uh some rules changed in the last 100 years for sure. Like they had some spelling rules changed. Uh, I know Russian as well has gone through, I believe, two grammar revisions in the last 100 years. So, languages are always changing. It's just about what direction, I guess, if it's a desirable way. Um, but I think it it's a pretty natural process. So, I'm I'm positive in in that the language we get is is is uh an improvement of the old one. Of course, I wouldn't want to like lose languages if it could be avoided. But, No. Yeah. That would be a different story.

No, definitely not, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's one of the dangers. I mean, living here in the United States, I uh beyond besides pigeons and Creoles, I'm also very uh interested in Native American languages. And when you kind of lose a language, um, you lose a portion of that those people's history in in some in some ways. The way they obviously, like you said, uh related emotion to each other, um, and and things that nature. And we've lost many languages already. So, it does behoove us to put a little bit more effort in in in learning some of these, and I know you you and others have spoken on that topic before for sure.

Yeah, and and that's also the the the hope of of sharing this topic with people is that hopefully there'll be people who see this as an interesting either pastime, like yourself, or maybe even uh a full-time in uh in linguistics kind of capacity, which is also very interesting.

Yeah, I mean, these these linguists go to great lengths. I've I've read about linguists who uh, you know, go to very uh uh different places in the world, you know, with with a microphone in hand, kind of cataloging these languages as best as they can. So, very interesting uh field in general.

Yeah, and and is there any I actually saw that Duolingo was coming out with Haitian Creole or they put it in the incubator. So I guess that's one way to uh increase the awareness and the

Yeah.

I just wanted to take a brief moment to just talk about some things that are happening over at Italki, which is the show's main sponsor. Italki is a tutoring platform where you can find affordable tutors for every language in the world, pretty much. So, get started today and get a free $10 credit when you book your first lesson. If you go to actualfluency.com/italki, that's spelled I T A L K I. So, give it a go and feel how tutoring can really boost and enhance your language learning. Right now there's two things going on at Italki you need to know. So there's the goals competition, which I mentioned in the intro. So if you go to actualfluency.com/goals, you can see the competition there. Basically, you just have to share a photo or video with a hashtag and you could win $500 worth of credits towards lessons, including a $500 flight ticket, uh or towards a flight ticket if you want to go far, uh, where you can choose where to go, basically. So that's the grand prize.

Haitian Haitian Creole is an interesting one because it's a successful language, first and foremost. And I say that because millions of people speak that language. Here in the United States, there's many Haitian Americans who live uh all around the country, but I I've I've been fortunate to meet many in in Florida. And I've also went to school with uh some Haitian Americans, and, you know, so the language has a little bit more of a uh a uh a uh I guess a footprint outside of Haiti than than some people may think. Um, it also Haitian Haitian Creole is also interesting because I've also been reading a lot about the fact that, at least a few years ago, the language of instruction in Haiti is French. Right. Standard French. But everybody speaks Haitian Creole. I I very few people, it appears, are necessarily are are fluent in French. And I've come across that myself. I've met younger folks who are fluent in French, and some older uh Haitian Americans who were not fluent in French, but obviously were in in Haitian Creole. Mhm. Um, and and that language is interesting because as I mentioned, obviously you have the lexifier, the base language of French, which which is a language you have been learning. And then you have all these interesting African languages and and their words and and I and and Spanish, I believe, is also involved. I was reading, this is where language the learnability of the language kind of comes into play because one of the things that came across was there's like 15 different types of dictionaries for Haitian Creole. Okay. for was one one uh stat that I heard. That type of uh foundation, that type of, I guess, you know, that is what helps some of these languages, I think, stay strong and and keep moving on.

Yeah. When does it when does it become like uh when is it like an established language? Is it already?

Yeah, I mean, it it

Yeah.

It is. It is. And and the Creole designation refers more to the almost in a sense to its historical context as being a language that, you know, has it it didn't it didn't develop by itself with one people living on this island. It was uh, you know, it was and you could probably say most languages in the beginning were probably Creoles, is was one one author made it seem like. Um, where where multiple populations came together, uh whatever the situation may be, and and it came out. It is definitely an established language, and uh Creole language uh or designation is more linguistic exercise as far as I can tell. And there's other more like I said, the the pigeons are the ones that to me are the most interesting. Yeah. Um, because they they they're small, as I mentioned, language light. They don't have a lot of information on them. There's been some folks, like I said, those those linguists with the microphone going everywhere in the world to to kind of catalog these items, but there's been many pigeons that just aren't spoken anymore because there's no need for them. Um, in the sense that those populations don't have different ways of communicating now. Yeah. Um, the the two that come to mind, uh, two that I'm I'm particularly interested in, you know, coming again the first one I read about in that Oxford uh guide that I was telling you is Chinese Pidgin Russian.

Okay.

Um, so.

That's a bit of a mix, isn't it?

It is very much so that's what popped out at me at the page. I'm like, what is this Chinese Pidgin Russian? Obviously, the countries are right next to each other, so it makes sense that they Yeah. And um, I obviously Siberia with with Northern China and and Mongolia, Manchuria and those areas. So, this language was spoken, by the way, as as best as I can tell for like 100 plus years. Um, there's no known speakers of it today, I believe. The lexifier, the base language for this pidgin was Russian. Right. And it it was kind of used in and around that that um that border between those two countries or or where they uh are relatively closer together. And it it was mostly used, it appears for commercial basis, uh trading, things of that nature. Um, and and I believe there's been some conflicts between the in that area in the past. I'm not too read up on it, but it's an interesting one just because it it's you know, Chinese Pidgin Russian, obviously, jumps out the page, but it never creolized. So, these two groups, it it didn't appear to be a large inter marriage going on. There wasn't as far as I can tell, a large amount of children, um, who who were produced, you know, who who were of Chinese and and Russian descent. So, there were no native speakers. Right. So, it was used for a long time, used on a commercial basis, and and and never creolized. Um, and most of the and

But we have records of it or how how do we know about it?

It has records of it. Yes, so we have records of it stretching back, um, I think, uh, if you look on the Apex website, going back, I think, to the 19th century. And it it was mostly from the from the look of it, Russian linguists who were in the area, kind of just, um, you know, looking at it, uh, cataloging it and things that nature. Um, unfortunately, many of the these journal articles were written in Russian, the language I do not currently speak, know how to read or write. So, it may be, uh, it may be where I go next just to just so I can read some of these articles. Um, or have have them translated somehow. But, um, yeah, that's that's how we know them.

Yeah, and I I suppose it's unlikely that a pidgin, well, maybe not, but I suppose it's quite unlikely that we'll see many more new ones come out because almost everyone now can just go to Google Translate, you know, and uh just speak into the phone and get a translation set out and such a global community now that you know, it's it seems unlikely that a situation would occur where two populations would would meet organically in some kind of situation.

So, Yeah, I I I've thought about that myself and I've looked at it. I haven't found too many like modern day pigeons uh per se or or or definitely not Creoles. Um, there is one thing that I came across, uh, a large amount of people from South Asia have have uh, they they work in the Middle East, and I've seen references to a potential pidgin that has formed there between the South Asian workers and the native population, uh, I think mostly the Gulf states that employ them. Uh, so that that's the only real one that I've seen that could be modern. Um, and and most of these definitely did seem to, you know, uh, originated in the past. Uh, sometimes a very, very long time ago, um, and and continue on into the future. So, in some cases.

Before the the Google Translates and everything made it

Yeah, I mean, think about it. You know, I if I wanted to, today, I could go to the airport and and probably be in England in in less than eight hours. You know, that's not something that was always around. Uh, so that that travel, technology, all that has sped a lot of stuff up, and and and we see it in languages, and you know, the most fascinating pidgin language to me it comes again out of the out of that history. The love of history. Um, there's a group of famous soldiers that fought in the French military that were known as the um Tirailleurs. Um, and they were Tirailleurs Senegalese, they were African, West African infantrymen, uh, who fought in the French army. I mean, I think pretty much most of the 19th century and half of the 20th century. They fought in both World Wars. And while I was studying these these men, who were very good infantrymen, um, I came across a Master's thesis from uh uh Hedvig Skjærgård in Stockholm University. And he was talking about their language, the language that they used with their French officers. It was called Français Tirailleur, and the lexifier was French. Uh, it was a pidgin, and it it was mixed with uh African languages such as Wolof, Fulani, and, you know, it's it's an interesting example of a language just like that Chinese Pidgin Russian, which lasted for a significant amount of time, was transactionally based, meaning military orders. I need you to do this. You need to go here. You need to do that. And then, you know, after the the French pretty much left the continent. I think they all French colonies, from what I've read in the article, were the French had left the continent by the sixties. And, um, it it has it has some interesting uh add-on. Um, the first president, I believe, of Senegal was himself uh uh a Tirailleur. And he actually was a prisoner of war in World War II. So, um, you know, it it's a fascinating topic, obviously, with a very unique military unit, but then this this this this idea of this pidgin language that they were using, uh to to work with each other, kind of just leapt off the page and um it's very interesting that this this uh this uh Swedish uh linguist uh thesis went into quite quite in depth into the topic. It was pretty nice to see. So.

Yeah, I guess uh every history uh history nerd uh out there uh is is really listening along with this and going like, yeah, that's an interesting topic. Let's go for that. Um, I find it very interesting as well. Um, one thing I was thinking about is as well if these pidgins are mostly sort of um well, either they're creolized or they're gone. Like the speakers have disappeared. It's not an e- there's no I suppose there are no real ways for someone who might be fascinated about this to actually learn something.

Yeah.

Are there any languages that that that are I guess it's a very sweet spot between somewhat, uh, you know, alive, but also not totally formed as a language because then you might as well learn Russian, right? I mean, if it's a So, I I guess my question is, do you do that?

Yeah. It's it's

It's it's funny you say that. It's funny you say that. Yeah, it's funny you say that because it ended up being the area that Chinese Pidgin Russian was speaking. They ended up just defaulting to speaking Russian. Right. Um, so, um, as far as the question about learning these languages, I have not seen too much about learning these languages, the pidgins in particular. The Creole, like you mentioned with the Duolingo, I've seen a significant amount of of material for Haitian Creole. Um, unfortunately, these languages would be very difficult to learn. Invariably, outside of Haitian Creole, they have very small populations. Yeah. And and in some of these cases, like that Chinese Pidgin Russian, it's it's almost a historical exercise because there are no living speakers. It hasn't been spoken in probably a century or more. Um, you know, and and when you look at some of these catalogs or some of these reports from these linguists, it's very technical in nature, understandably, that's their job. Um, and the materials, while very important for the, you know, the cataloging of the language, isn't necessarily always the best to learn the language. Um, Right. You know, they don't necessarily have dictionaries, uh, things that nature. So, I would say it would be difficult. And obviously, if someone has some information to the that of other languages, uh, outside of Haitian Creole, that have that larger, um, I guess body of of materials to learn from, I'd love to hear it. But yeah, it it just seems it would be very difficult, I would imagine.

Yeah. Have you have you ever seen uh Toki Pona?

I've I've I've heard about it from your show actually. I I haven't I haven't messed around with it. I is that a constructed language, or is it a

Oh yeah, it is a constructed language, but I was thinking it might be the the exercise of learning that might be very similar to the experience of a of a pidgin because it's um, it's um, it's a constructed language completely yeah but it's a but it's a very minimal language, so you have 120 words or thereabouts. And so everything you make is like a compound. So, like a, you know, like a car, you I think what we ended up on was something like moving building or something. Building that runs or something, you know. It's like, yeah, it's very it's there's a very good exercise. Actually, I I've recommended it before, and I'm not a not a big into like con languages and and spending time on learning something that isn't natural because I always my idea was always well, I could just learn something that people actually speak, you know. But but I actually think that Toki Pona is um is a very big is a good exercise in what a language really is. And that is what we talked about earlier, translating the the thoughts and the ideas from your mind, and if you can simplify that process, you can actually you'll find that you will be much better at your other languages because you suddenly understand that, okay, I might have this English phrase in my head that I want to say in Spanish, but what am I really trying to say? You know, if it's a really long one or is it unnecessarily complicated, maybe it can be, you know, diluted into the core message, basically, just what you want to say. Um, so, I'm thinking if that would be a similar experience with Toki Pona and a pidgin because it's such a simple language, but obviously it's it's a mental challenge to actually say something with just 120 words.

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a very fascinating idea. I guess I didn't know know to that degree. Um, there are I have seen with with natural languages something similar. Um, have you ever heard of the term basic English?

Hmm, it sounds it rings a bell, but I can't remember anything about it.

Yeah, so basic English and and some of these other I think there's also one called basic French. It's essentially what you just just described, essentially a pared-down version of the language. Um, and, you know, I don't know how many words, I don't know if that was 120, 125, but it was it it's a similar concept. But so were you able to pick up on Toki Pona pretty quickly, or?

Oh yeah, it takes about, I mean, but it yeah, there's there's two answers to the question. It it takes about a day, probably to learn the the vocabulary if you use a space repetition system. Uh, I did it in the Memrise office and we had we were there just to do that. So we started in the morning and we were there all day. So that was why I did it in just one day. And then the next day, it was more about, okay, now we know the words, how can we actually say something? And it was a very painstaking, slow and laborious process because you have to think about everything. And the surprising thing was that it was almost impossible to, I mean, it was hard to speak, but it was almost impossible to listen because the speakers' perception of what things were dictated what words they used. So, while I might say for coffee, I might say a good black liquid, or good black water. And someone who doesn't like coffee might say disgusting or evil black water or something. You know. And yellow water could be urine, it could be apple uh orange juice, you know. Uh, so you really discover that with such a limited vocabulary, it becomes uh an exercise of talking to the same people and then establishing conventions. Which I'm sure how every language developed eventually, is that, you know, people were just saying random things, and then eventually people were like, they, okay, he says this. Let's all call it this and I guess it's the same with new online things or new tech things or like in in uh if you translate them, it doesn't sound very good. Uh, like uh, you know, computer, you can say in Danish, but you can also There's also Danish words or like in Norwegian, they have their own Norwegian word for computer. And Esperanto, the con language has a a continuous battle of uh new words because some people want them to be compound words. So the they actually make sense like, uh, you know, thing that computes. Whereas uh the the the institute or the people behind it might want to make an entirely new word or even use like a an anglicized version like uh, you know, compute or something, something. I think that's actually a very interesting discussion. If people are interested in in these kind of like Creoles and pidgins, I imagine people would also be interested in in that discussion of uh Esperanto, which is the most successful con language as far as I know. Yeah. I mean what's the difference?

Yeah, and and that happens outside of constructed languages, too. I mean, look at the Académie Française in France. Obviously, you know, they their job, I think, technically their mission is just to make the dictionary for the French language. Yeah. But they they do seem to weigh in on certain words now that they should be said or spoken, which doesn't necessarily always align with how the population is is using that term. So.

Exactly. Yeah. They they try to set the rules and grammar rules and stuff, but again, if everyone is using it the other way, then the rules gets changed, which is kind of difficult. I remember there there was some phrases in Danish where people just didn't know what they were saying, and they just got corrupted so much that eventually it was just accepted. It's like, yeah, now it means both. It's just like, what? It's just a complete opposite. It's a complete 180, but that's because it sounds confusing. It it's like, uh, well, the the direct translation is like a bear favor. So is that like a big favor or is it like a uh uh, you know, someone that's going to maul you favor, you know? Yellow.

Savage savage favor.

Exactly. Pretty much and and so so even if the the yeah, whatever they call it, the institute of Danish, they tried to set out the rules and grammar rules and everything, if the population can't figure it out, or they decide to use it in a different way, then, yeah, they'll just send out a directive saying we now accept both here, which is just it's mental, isn't it? That you could just I can imagine I I can understand changing it to the opposite, but the fact that it means both is like, well, you're never going to know, are you? Yeah. Yeah. I I do have a question for you because I I don't think I've ever met anybody who spoke Danish uh from birth. So, um, or or from childhood. Would you say that Danish is healthy, the state of the language? Meaning, you know, some of the things we talked about earlier with English and stuff like that, that

Yeah, I would I would I would think so, yeah. It's a very, like everyone speaks English, and they understand the need for it. But it's a very healthy language in in the sense that you won't see any Danish people speaking English together unless there's an English speaker in the group. So, it's it's nowhere near a problem. But I can see it as the beginning maybe of of something, maybe it'll be a new language in in 200 years' time where it's like half and half. Maybe it'll be a bit like Dutch or something. Uh that probably takes a lot longer, but yeah.

Yeah, I I've been interested in that language particularly or Scandinavian Nordic languages and potentially maybe learning it next year. And I I find it doesn't seem like Danish has a lot of materials for the English learner. Uh, Swedish does for some reason. But English didn't seem to.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is. It is. It's an isolate, right?

Yeah, I don't know exactly what it is. I mean, it's good for me because I could create some of those materials maybe and and uh maybe get a uh get some of that going. I have been thinking about that.

Yeah, definitely. There's a need.

Um, but uh I think it's just that Sweden is just so much bigger. It's almost twice the size, I think. And the land mass is like five, 10 times, you know. Takes five hours to drive from one end of Denmark to the other. But it takes about a day in Sweden, you know. So, it it's quite a different magnitude. And but what's interesting over there, which may interest you, it's like the Scandinavian language. When people from Norway, Denmark, and Sweden speak together, and they all sort of meet in the middle in this Scandinavian language. I think that's an interesting thing to look at. Um, because you can we can sort of understand each other, but you have to make certain adjustments. So, if you do speak together, unless you're done it for a long time or you have great experience living in one of the other countries, it becomes a different language in a way. It's like a a mix a Scandinavian, if you will, as a language. And maybe maybe again, we will see those merging a bit more, uh, later on because they're really similar. Like really, really similar. So,

Well.

Yeah, it might came from a common common language, I'm sure that existed, uh, you know, who knows how many years ago when it's put into into those what we call, you know, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark. Um, Finland is different. It's uh, it's completely different.

Oh yeah, it is. It is. Yeah, it is. It's an isolate, right?

It's uh, Iceland, Faroe Islands have, um, are more similar. The it's hard to understand them, but they're similar. And Finland is just a weird cousin that nobody knows, you know. It's like, well, uncle or something. They we have no idea what they're saying, and they have no cognates or anything.

Uh, what you're what you're describing is the same thing in Northern India with Hindi, Punjabi, and Urdu. In my opinion, they're very, very similar. And I that's why I'm saying, I got lucky because if you know one, you kind of

Yeah.

got the

Yeah, me too. Me too. Definitely very it's a very privileged position to be in to have to just get three languages for free.

Yeah, pretty much.

Do you have any weird uncles over there that like it's geographically close but just completely different language?

Um, so, you know, I've looked at some languages that are supposedly because Punjabi is is what's known as an Indo-Iranian language. Um, and I've looked at some of these other languages like Dari, Pashto, Farsi. There's they there's definitely words that pop out at me when I hear it and and and and and things like that, but I don't understand it for for the most part. So, there's definitely, I'm sure, if I put some effort into it, it'd be easier for me to learn those languages as opposed to something completely new and and and uncharted territory such as, you know, uh, Japanese or something like that.

Right. Good advantage that. And that I guess that's an advantage that many people have with English. You have French and Dutch and German. All these European languages are kind of similar in a way with the at least with the vocabulary and you can you can get some freebies there if you if you want to learn a couple of them.

I I mean, I can tell you as a French student for the last three years, speaking English has been invaluable. Yeah. It has been it has been I was like, thank God, because when you first go into it, you're like, man, this this is going to be kind of tough. And then there's no doubt, they're not the same languages in any way. Um, and some may say that the, you know, English is is an offshoot of French, uh and obviously it's a Germanic language, but a heavy French influence. And, uh, man, there are truly many, many cognates, and there's many many similarities.

Yeah.

Like 40% cognates, I've I've read somewhere. Definitely thousands.

That is. So you just know so the the trick is if you can't think of the word in French, just think of a fancy way of saying it in English, and you usually get the French.

I have to try that next time I get into binds.

Go to Langfest and try to speak a little bit. But that's a different uh French, though. I mean, not hugely different, but that is their own little uh, you know, what can you call it? A dialect, maybe.

Yeah. So, I mean, that that's an interesting historical context, too, because a large amount of people settled there. I think around the 18th century, and they spoke French from many different parts of France. Um, which the dialects, I guess, were were were different for sure. And then they kind of got isolated. They didn't I don't think they had a lot of contact with with the mother country, with France after England, England pretty much took it over. So, in in some ways, I have heard that this is from French French folks that when they watch French Canadian television in France, they actually use subtitles. Right. Um, so, I I have heard that, but I haven't seen it myself. And, you know, I've spoken to French Canadian folks. I haven't had any issues. Uh, their accent is definitely very different than what you'd encounter on on the continent in uh in France or in Belgium. Um, but I I and I believe that they have also made a conscious effort, uh, as far as language of instruction, which is huge for language survival, in their schools to I think start moving more towards that standard French. So.

So. Actually, I I think I heard the different story actually. Yeah, my uh like we need to fact fact check my uh my statement there, but I I thought I heard because I was there in uh two years ago, and I talked to my Airbnb host a bit about this. Um, and that's also one thing if you don't speak any French in your Montreal, I mean, their English is just extraordinary. So, no problems there. Um, but I spoke to him about it, and he said that it was a relatively new uh uh concept to have Quebecois uh textbooks. That the textbooks were like proper from France textbooks up until recently, like he relatively recently. Okay. And then, you know, obviously everyone would go out of the classroom, they would speak a completely different way.

Yeah.

Speak what they speak. Yeah. I can imagine it would be similar to like Switzerland where you have like the they're probably taught the Hochdeutsch, like the the main key German. And then they have their own spoken dialect, the the Schweizerdeutsch, as as they call it. Uh probably butchered the the pronunciation, but uh you know, their their the Swiss German, uh, which is really hard to understand, by the way. I I don't I don't have much experience with it, but I had a Swiss roommate for a for a while, and even though I speak German, it's one of my best languages. I when he spoke fast, I was like, I have no idea what you're saying. Um, but I can imagine that's what what happened. So, so we need to get back on that uh for sure because I I I think that's what he told me that they were they used to be taught off of French books, and then it was just pointless because it's not the language they're speaking. Uh, just to also, I guess protect the language, like you say, and and and really underline the fact that it is actually a stand-alone language. It's not just some kind of French corruption, you know. It's their own, uh, a bit like the definitely is, definitely is. Yeah. And and they are very proud of it, and understandably so. And I know that they passed a lot of laws in the last few decades to protect it. Yeah. And obviously, Canada is a bilingual country, you know, uh, but there's definitely more heavier pockets of French speakers, I think, on the eastern side of the country as opposed to the west. Oh yeah, for sure, yeah. I don't I don't know how it is in in the west. I never went that far, but uh I can imagine they may maybe just have it in school, like many European countries, and then they have this kind of basic level, maybe some good understanding, but not good production necessarily.

Yeah, they do.

Or indeed the Eastern part, just uh let us know because uh we're uh in a in a bit of a deep water here when it comes to this uh it's a bit a few years ago since I was there. So, I could have definitely misremembered. But, um, thank you so much for coming on and and sharing your passion for for the topic. And and these uh interesting historical uh I would almost call him like, what's what's oddities, I guess you can call them because that's you you have ways for natural languages to develop. You have ways for for these processes to take place, and they obviously have thousands of years ago. But then you have these kind of like what happens when two meet kind of uh and and what develops. And it it's uh I guess it's a a remnant. We probably won't get to see much more of this uh with all the new technology and globalization. Yeah. Um, and I'm sure it doesn't look like it. But uh we can always enjoy what what was, and thanks to like the diligent linguist you were talking about. And I hope that people listening who are more interested in going into linguistics, or maybe are are studying for linguistics, you can get some inspiration for some of your language projects. I know there are a lot of I mean that's more in the endangered languages probably uh documenting and cataloging them. Yeah. But you can still get to travel around the world and and bring your uh your tapes, your tape recorder and and and just document what what was for for future enjoyment and and curiosity. So, uh, so yeah, thank you so much for coming on. It was really interesting. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the actual Fluency podcast. I really appreciate having you here today. Just before you leave, I just want to give a quick shout-out to today's sponsor, which is Italki. Italki is a tutoring platform where you can find affordable tutors for every language in the world, pretty much. So, get started today and get a free $10 credit when you book your first lesson. If you go to actualfluency.com/italki, that's spelled I T A L K I. So, give it a go and feel how tutoring can really boost and enhance your language learning.