Marija Dobrovolska: Confidence in language learning and teaching German

If you're looking for a language teacher to enhance your language learning, then I highly recommend Italki. Italki is the world's biggest tutoring platform and you can find thousands of teachers and tutors at very reasonable prices. Get a free lesson after completing your first lesson by going to languageteacher.co.

Hello everyone, welcome back to the Actual Fluency podcast. Today, I'm joined by my friend Maria the Provoska, who is running the website Deutsch mit Maria, that also has a really big YouTube channel with I think it's over 17 million views, so quite a serious channel there with uh 150,000 plus subscribers and it's all in German. It's all for people who want to learn German as the name implies.

Today's episode we're talking about her language learning past, including growing up as a native Russian speaker in Latvia, some of the political things that are happening there that was completely unknown to me. Maybe you'll find that interesting as well. And we also talked about how she started teaching German when after she moved to Germany and lived there for a while and pivoted into just becoming a a full-time German teacher and now has her own business and it's seen tremendous growth. So, I'm really excited to have her on. She's also a fantastic human being, so enjoy the episode with Maria and I'll see you in the next one.

Well Maria, welcome to the podcast. It's been a while, we've been talking about for a while but we finally made it happen. And uh do you wanna start the recording off by just letting people know who you are, where you're from, and how you got the interest in languages?

But I've been living in Germany, in Bavaria for the past I guess it's almost 14 years now. So, I'm not sure, well, which country is more mine now. And speaking of languages, so Russian is my mother tongue, and Latvian was my first foreign language. And then I added German and English and some other languages which I never really followed through to, you know, to become really fluent. But in times of need I could probably speak some sentences in them. Yeah.

But there are still many people whose mother tongue is Russian and um well, I guess it's it's different now than it used to be like 20 years ago because now there is no pressure to learn Russian anymore, so young people choose other languages to learn at school for example, they don't have to learn Russian anymore. And there are many Latvians who are not interested in Russian.

On the other hand, you have people who have Russian as their mother tongue and they refuse to learn Latvian because well, it's a kind of a political thing, so that's why it's a little complicated but, you know, I grew up in a bilingual family. And um I have Russian friends and Latvian friends, but it's something that is really tough when you live in Latvia. You always have to choose the right language. So, if you address a person in the street and ask them for directions and you choose the wrong language, um you might get a rude answer, you might not get an answer at all, which is, you know, psychologically it's it's not a nice thing to experience every day.

So in any official situation, in any if if you're dealing with authorities or something, it's only Latvian. But there are many people who speak Russian and it's, well, I know it it used to be 30 something percent, but it's really hard to measure now because there are many Russians with Latvian passports and it says Latvian. So, nationality is Latvian, but they don't say which language people speak. So, in the passport you can't really see it.

So, at that point, I mean it must have been quite rough for people who had Russian language back then as the main language because you're kind of it's like you're being I don't know, it's kind of like your culture is taken away. If all the signs are painted over and the schools are, you know, it's been down prioritized and I I even heard recently there was being some the government wanted to make it illegal or something. That was that was even sounded even crazier. I don't know if that was a a rumor or what happened but I mean that must just have been a really strange feeling.

But on the other hand, you know, it gave me this start with two languages. So, I grew up with two languages and my mom added Latvian maybe when I was like four or five because I learned how to read when I was four in Russian. And I I'm still not sure how that happened, but I guess I loved it so much that everyone was reading aloud to me. Uh, and then they stopped at some point and I was like, wait, wait, I still want to read. So, they said, so you learn it. So, I learned how to read. So, I was really reading a lot when I was a kid. And then my mom added Latvian as my second language. So, I basically grew up with two.

And I guess it's it's the advantage of the country because you have so many countries where there is just one language which is official, so you don't get this start with with two.

I hope I hope the situation calms down and uh like gives people some I yeah, I don't know how to solve it even because obviously that's deeply ingrained uh due to the history, of course. There's probably a lot of oppression and like a lot of brutal uh times. So, I can understand if if some people are negative about it, but obviously the the racism is is completely unbearable, especially since you're from there, you know, some 30 percent, as you said, that's the number I heard before. Um, but anyway, let's move on to to some more uh cheerful topics. But but thank you for for indulging my uh my uh curiosity in in the topic for a few minutes. I appreciate it.

Um, you're definitely right that where you're brought up and and your parents and and anything can be a huge boost to uh bilingualism. Like in Denmark for instance, the official language is Danish. There's no other language, but because such a small language, English is a huge part of it. So, for me, I also feel super lucky to have gotten that start as well from a very young age where we had to translate video games for ourselves because there was no Danish Pokemon, you know, didn't exist back then.

So, um I really enjoy that you just mentioned that as well as a big advantage even though for many Russian speakers in Latvia, I'm sure it's a it's quite a a grim experience or they have had bad experiences with it.

So, without this negative touch of, oh, you know, we were forced to speak Russian for like 75 years as a nation and that's why we hate it. Um, but things don't change overnight. So, maybe some generations will pass and then things will change. So, I'm absolutely hopeful. And well, yeah.

I mean, if you want everyone between 18 or the age of 18 and 40 to leave the country and work abroad, okay, so keep doing what you're doing. So, Yeah. Anything that is done has consequences and well, there are reasons why I don't live in Riga anymore. I mean, I I love the country, I I love the people and my family's there, but there are reasons why I've been in Germany for so many years now.

This is the official part of the story. The unofficial part of the story, just for your listeners, you know, just don't tell anyone else. Uh, it was like I I went to a conference and there were people from different countries and I met a really nice German guy.

So, basically, I decided, I guess, it was a decision of two or three days that I have to go to Germany, no matter what for. So, I found a university in Bavaria, which was quite close to the city he lived in. So, I was there. The love story didn't really work out, which is not a tragedy because I ended up staying in Germany.

I was like, okay, so the love story didn't work out. What do I do now? Do I admit that I went to Germany just for this? Or if I don't admit it, then I have to do something else. Okay, so I moved to the university I was at in Nuremberg. So, I I switched the programs, I finished uh my university program in Nuremberg and um did all the final exams, so not just as a as an exchange student but as a regular student. And so I didn't have to say anymore I came to Germany because I fell in love. Wow. Well, yeah.

And later on, I I I got married anyway and um I had a kid here and I I still have a kid here. So, basically, I'm bound to the city I came to by accident.

And she was allowed to take me with her. So, basically, I came to Mannheim, uh without speaking any German. So, I was like, I could say mein Name ist Maria, uh, ich komme aus Lettland. And then that's that was it.

And it took me, I guess, two or three months to start speaking. Because I was really lucky to be at a school where I was the only foreign kid in class. So, I was really interesting to the rest of the class. And I was really lucky because I could imagine a situation where kids would be mocking me or, you know, bullying me because I I couldn't speak. So, I was like, I don't know, mute.

But they were really helping me. They were correcting every mistake I made. But I mean, every single one. If I was like in in math and I wanted to say something like, yes, yes, I I know the answer too. Until I got the sentence right in my head, uh it was too late anyway. And then five people said, Maria, it's not like, um ich habe denselben gedacht. You should say, ich habe dasselbe gedacht. And funnily enough, my self-esteem wasn't murdered in that year. So, it was really interesting.

But uh instead, I learned how to speak German. Probably like any German kid within a few months. So, it was like a miracle. Amazing. Yeah, well, at the age of 11, it's a little different than if you do it as an adult. But I came back to Latvia with a different kind of self self-esteem, I have to admit, because I was like, okay, now I speak German. So, and since then, basically, I I can speak German like like I do now.

But well, they they did have a lot of uh German classes and stuff. And during this year, I didn't learn anything. I mean, I came to Germany and I had a feeling that I'm a zero. I know nothing like Jon Snow, you know. And and and then later on, I was trying to reflect on that and to think, how is it possible to, you know, have classes in a foreign language for a year and not remember anything? So, this experience I really used a lot when I started teaching because I thought, okay, it's it's impossible. The other kids were also kids. And uh if you could create a situation where they are in a kind of German environment, which is possible using whatever audios, videos, I mean, it was not 1970s then, it was 1990s. So, they also have lots of, you know, they had lots of uh technical stuff they could have used but they obviously didn't. Uh, because I don't think I was not talented in languages until some point and then I went to Germany and boom, uh, you know. So, I wasted a year.

And for my self-esteem, it was terrible because those kids were learning German from from the first grade. And I switched schools in fifth grade. So, basically, my mom thought, okay, those five years you can catch up easily. And I didn't. And besides, I had a really tough year because I was bullied all the time. So, I I was, you know, I was a kid from an intelligent family where books were something very precious. And I came into a class of kids mostly of wealthy parents. So, many business people and the kids were like, okay, how many Barbies have you got? I was like, uh, none. And well, how many other fancy stuff do you have? Um well, I don't really. So, I was the girl with the books. And I was either invisible or they were mocking me just for fun. So, I was like, I hated German altogether because it was connected with this school and this situation.

And then when I got to Germany, it was like, I had a fresh start. Nobody knew me. Nobody knew that I was this unpopular kid with books and not fancy clothes. So, when I came back from Germany, it was I I can't even describe it for what it was. Because I had to repeat a grade because they told me that what I did in Germany was really nice, but it was a private school. So, it was a Waldorf school, actually. And well, it doesn't really fit with the school program in my old school. So, they sent me back to sixth grade after Germany. So, basically, I lost a year.

But I won so many things. I can't even begin to describe because I came back with my new self-esteem like, I was cool. I was in a German school where I spoke better than most teachers who were teaching German. Which was not always good because, you know, not not every teacher is uh, yeah, delighted uh to have a student in class who speaks better than the teacher himself or herself. But, um the situation in class was completely different. So, I was popular, I was, I don't know, I I felt differently and uh I'm still friends with, I'd say, 80% of my class. So, when we graduated together and we're still connected in every possible social network. So, you know, things happen and you never know what leads to what. But in the end, you look back and think, okay, hmm. Interesting, how it all turned out.

We'll just take a quick break to hear from our sponsor Italki, but we'll be right back. On this podcast, I've interviewed hundreds of language learners, some of the world's greatest polyglots and industry experts. And one thing they all agree on is the value of one-to-one tutoring lessons. And for this, I highly recommend Italki. They have thousands of teachers in all price ranges, and they even have certified teachers who have taken diplomas or have degrees in the language you're learning.

So, whether you're just brushing up on your Italian ahead of a trip to Rome, or you want to master Russian to take the uh exam or whatever your goals are in languages, Italki has a tutor suitable for you. And compared to private tutoring offline, is really affordable. You can find informal tutors down to $5 an hour and you can have trial lessons for even less.

So, if you want to master a language from the comfort of your own home, and you even get a $10 credit when you complete your first lesson, go to languageteacher.co and check out Italki. It might be the best thing you do for your language learning this year.

But I think the success, I think most people have a negative experience with languages when they start because it's because it's taught very badly. You know, it's like math, you know, they teach you these grammar tables, you don't really use it for anything. So, you never feel like you get anywhere. And I had um, uh, one of the recent episodes was with Tamara, who was in Berlin as well recently. Uh, she was saying how she had Spanish in school for a couple years and then she went to a Spanish-speaking country and she couldn't say anything. So, her confidence is just crushed. You know, it completely destroyed. Even though she was doing well at the tests, she was she was doing everything right according to the school, but then actually using it was useless. So, you can imagine how how that feels.

And I think if anything, I would love to see schools focusing more on those early wins, you know, in the in the smaller grades, try and get them to speak or sing maybe. I I mean, my school, we did a lot of singing. And I think that really that's very nice because you memorize songs much better with a melody. And also, it it helps you to be part of the group because you're all singing the same song, right?

Um, so when did you get into the teaching aspect? What how did you decide to explore that?

So, I had the opportunity to start really early. And I noticed that well, on the one hand, I enjoyed teaching. On the other hand, I hated teaching anything to kids. Right. And it took me many, many years to find out that, well, actually, it's okay. Not everyone has to work with kids. And there are people who are who are like born for it. You know, you've definitely uh met teachers in your life where you thought, okay, this is a natural-born teacher and he or she shouldn't be doing anything else because it's just talent. You know, the way they deal with kids. And this is what I didn't have. So, I could work, let's say, starting with teenagers, it became easier. Because I'm very, well, I I like using irony in class. I like joking, I like language jokes. And you can't do it with eight-year-olds. It just doesn't work. Right.

So, it was an interesting experience for me because, well, I went through university and in Germany you have to specialize really, um like, you have to pick the kind of school you want to be a teacher in. So, and and there are many different kinds of school. So, well, you can't just change your mind after a year and say, oh no, I want to teach older kids or something. So, I specialized in Hauptschule which is the school for kids who didn't really make it. You know, they're basically three types of schools. And there's gymnasium for those who were successful, who want to go to university and become doctors and engineers and lawyers. There is a kind of a middle school, which is Realschule. And there is the other school for the other kids. Um, well, uh, teachers tell them, you know, but you can still become a hairdresser or a mechanic or something. It's it's still fine.

But these kids basically when when they get into the school, they're lost. Like they teachers tell them every day that you're losers anyway and you won't get anywhere because you're losers. So, this is the kind of school I specialized in, um when I decided that I want to be a teacher. And it was really tough. So, one of the reasons I decided I will never work in a state school because it puts you in a system where you can't really change anything. I mean, you you can do your teaching, but um you can't tell five-graders that they can become doctors if it's their dream. So, if there is a class where you're supposed to talk about kids' dream jobs, then there is a variety of jobs which are selected for them, which are well, realistic for them. But you can't say, of course, you can become a doctor if you want badly, if if you try everything. And it was so depressing and then I decided I I can't do it. It doesn't matter what I teach, it doesn't matter how good I am at teaching, but I every day I'm like walking around killing those kids' dreams. Or if I don't, then my colleagues do. And it was just too too depressing.

Mm. And I don't know. I I I think again it's back to confidence, isn't it? 'Cause you if you really want to do something, you you can. Everyone can learn anything. Of course, we're not all made to be uh, let's say, NBA players or, you know, top-level chess players or whatever, but most jobs that you mentioned can definitely be be made by anyone. Like you just need some extra help. But if you're told from you're 12 years old that you're useless, then stupid. Maybe not even directly, just kind of passively. Then you can see how people get out of school and they just kind of fold, you know, they just kind of break down almost. So, I'm I'm happy you got out of that.

So, if you compare it to state schools where as a teacher, you have to be, I don't know, a clown or a dinosaur to to motivate your students because well, it's not about the stuff you have to teach them, it's how to get their attention because they are in school and they are in well, their natural state of mind is, oh, get lost. I don't want to hear that. It's not interesting. It's school, so it can't be interesting. You know, this this uh general school situation. Probably it's different in Scandinavia, as we keep hearing those um legends about how everything is different in Scandinavia. But well, German schools are very, very traditional.

So, now, I not only deal with people who really came there, who who were looking for videos on the German language and they found me and they are thankful for everything I do, which for a teacher, it's really awesome because I don't have to motivate anyone. Uh, they come there because they want to. On the other hand is, uh, I have many online courses. Now, well, I have I run a an online language school for German. And what we mostly do is helping people preparing for exams. And I hate exams myself. I don't believe in language test certificates. I think it's a crazy thing well, people are forced to do. But okay, it's it's a system we all function in. So, it doesn't work without the systems.

And um what I basically do is on the one hand, I teach them how to pass exams, how to, you know, pick the right materials, how to what to learn, how to learn, why to learn, et cetera. And on the one hand, we work on the self-esteem very intensively because people come to Germany because they want to, well, maybe some of them want to study at the university. They are normally very motivated and they have their dreams and they imagine how their life in Germany will turn out. There, I don't need too much motivation yet.

But there are others who are doctors and lawyers and engineers and who came to Germany and back in their home country, they used to be somebody. You know, they they had a career uh, I really have many doctors in my courses and they say, okay, I used to be head of whatever, heart surgery. And I came to Germany and job center, this um, how do you call it in language, in any other language.

So, this is what I basically do and I think anything we can do with grammar or vocabulary is worth less than the motivational part where I say, look back at everything you have achieved in life and don't look at yourself as you are a blank sheet of paper. I mean, you have your experience and you've passed exams and you've learned things. So, this is all your your asset. You know, you can use it. And they're like, oh, really? Now that that you've told me, well, actually, I've done quite a lot in my life. And this is what what is so important because you have basically, you don't do much language teaching, you do something else. I don't know. It's maybe more psychological than it is language teaching at all.

Um, but just to mention uh the YouTube channel and your website is called Deutsch mit Maria. Or Maria, I'm not entirely sure, uh my German accent is a little bit uh all over the place.

Um, well, when I started the YouTube channel, the reason basically why I did it was, um, my boss at the language school where where I was working, so a language school for adults. Uh, she kept telling me that I can't be using Rammstein songs in class. It's too it's just not cool. You know, people want to get prepared for their exams. Uh, they want to study grammar. They don't want Rammstein. I said, look, if you trust me, um, I'm supposed to do listening comprehension with them, why not Rammstein? I mean, the songs are awesome. I mean, you have to pick the right right songs because otherwise they are a little shocking. But, well, and uh we had more and more conversations like this when she was like, oh, this is too creative and please don't do that and please don't do this.

So, and then I started just paying attention to the comments and one by one I added more and more videos people wanted to see. And then basically, it became a channel where I was interacting with my audience very, very much. So, I started with YouTube, then I added the Facebook page, but I always was, uh, checking on their, uh, wishes. Like, what kind of videos did they want to see? And, of course, some things were like, oh, I could do this, I could do that. So, some spontaneous ideas of mine. And they went with it. So, it was a combination of what what do they want and what do I feel like talking about. So, this is how basically it it changed from general, how to learn a language, to how to learn German.

But, well, generally my channel turned out to be for advanced learners because there was definitely a gap in the market because there are so many things for A1 and A2 level. But the higher you get, the less you have like the, well, there are not enough, um, materials on that. So, we started with maybe B1, second half of B1, B2 and C1, C2. So, that's why I thought if they can't understand my explanations, then it's not B2 and they should be somewhere else watching other videos.

But, well, I also get a lot like, uh, people tell me that they understand me very well because I speak a very clear German and I really try to speak clearly and slowly. And but then they go out in the street and they don't understand nothing. I was like, okay, so where do you live if you understand nothing in the street? And you said like, oh, it's a Swiss village. So, I said, you know, in this village probably, I wouldn't understand anything either.

Because when I came to Nuremberg, I had a feeling that I learned the wrong German, which was a shocking experience for me. Because I had to move into the, um, dorms for for university students. Yeah. And the how do you call the person who's supervising the dorms? Like the,

And the funny part is, he didn't care at all. So, he was managing uh the the dorms for international students. So, there were people from China and Indonesia and Russia and well, any language. And um, they all had the same problem. Maybe even more problems than I had because they weren't as fluent in German as I was. And he just didn't care. So, I stayed there for a year and I was observing him talking to different people. And there was all the same situation where he was talking and talking and talking and they were like, sorry, could you could you write it down? Could you could you just give me the key? So, it was really funny.

And I'm basically answering a bazillion of questions people ask me on Facebook and on YouTube. So, as most things I do, they appear from questions I get. And then if I get a certain question a lot, then I think, okay, maybe I should make an online course where I answer all these questions. And if there are some more questions people have, they still can contact me or book a coaching or something. And the courses turned out really well. So, they seem to be working.

So, you really have to stick close with your audience. No matter how cool you are, how many followers you have, and, you know, so you shouldn't get too far away from them. And this is the most important takeaway I probably had in those three years I've been doing it.