Silver Ilves: Language Startups and Development

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Yeah, hi, Chris. Um, thanks for having me here. Sure. Um, I'm Silver. I'm 34 years old. Um, I studied informatics and economics, so I consider myself kind of half nerd, half snob. Um, I have been working in the tech space since 10, 10 years and then uh, the co-founder of the language learning app called Magic Lingua.

Hmm, makes sense. What kind of languages did you get?

So, the first one, of course, was, was English. Um, mid uh nineties, when the internet and computers came up, there was nothing really in Estonian, like no programs, no games, and I was really into games. I would, I would uh skip school to play this game called Civilization and I don't know if you ever played it um, to really do well on this game, you need to read a lot the manual about how all the wonders and and and uh the units and everything works, so I needed to really uh understand it in English and this is where I started to to learn uh English.

Yeah, I can understand. So how did you turn it around?

Um, I was forced to. I was uh, I was the only one in in the class that uh was not a native German or not born in Germany. So there was nobody or no friends I could just speak uh Estonian or or English to. And um, yeah, I picked it up, I picked it up pretty fast. Um, started to to read a lot, to to listen a lot at home. And German was um yeah, just after a few years, it was, it was no issue. I mean, I was 15, so it was not too too hard uh to pick it up.

How fascinating. I mean that culture is really booming now. I don't know if you've seen it on YouTube. I've I've had, I don't know why, the YouTube algorithm will always puzzle me. I don't understand but for some reason I got recommended a series about someone driving through America in a van. And I watched one of them just to be interested and now every single recommendation in my life is about living in a van. Uh so yeah, I think YouTube's algorithm is a bit sensitive to input considering I had I've had my account for like years and they have so much data on me, it feels strange they just kind of update. But I guess interest change but uh so you were really a pioneer almost in that sense because uh that's a, you know, now it seems like a lot of people are doing it but uh back then, I guess it wasn't something that a lot of people talked about just driving off.

Still I, I mean I, even myself, I got it the idea from a friend who has been with a van before and then I thought like, hey, I can do it too. So I don't think I was a pioneer. Especially in in Spain, actually if you're in the south of Spain, you meet a lot of people and the people I met in Malaga, particularly they, there were many people that were born in Malaga and they just lived in advance by choice. They just uh kind of moved out of the the flats and I mean it was their lifestyle and it's much more common in in in Spain and generally in in Southern Europe than it's uh let's say in Germany or I'm sure in Denmark or anyways Estonia.

Right. So how did you, how different did it feel to learn the language because I, I guess if you're forced to learn a language, that sounds kind of bad but I guess it really power you really learned faster because you have to, otherwise you you can't speak to people. But what in Spain you really wanted to learn it, so how was that experience different?

Definitely it's a different, yeah. If if you have to, like the experience I had in in Germany first, I I I felt forced, so I I really did it fast and I I put in effort, I went home and I I started doing it. In Spain kind of was um, I was running a startup at this time, another one and uh so I I worked half of the day in my van with a laptop and um the other half I I tried to go surfing or or do something else.

Was it the language practice or was it getting uh practice in let's say, or going out of your comfort zone, what was the most important?

I guess it was both. Yeah. It was both, yeah. I was um, I spent quite a time on the on the Atlantic coast, so naturally you will also meet a lot of lot of tourists, uh foreigners and then you will switch back to English. Uh of course, but uh if you hang out around in the in the bars in the evening then you you find again people to speak Spanish to.

Right. Well, how, why did you decide to go back? It sounds like a dream lifestyle, you know, working from your laptop a few hours a day and then going to the beach and surfing, going to the bar at night with other people, living in your van, sounds great.

Um, the reason I went back is actually that um, my, the how you call it, like the the car, how is it called in English, I don't know, like the the inspection, right? Did you like every two years? Yeah. It was it was already expired and the police wanted to take off my van. I mean, I was I was uh held for another reason but then they they realized that it was expired, so I said like, okay, I I have to go back to Germany and renew it. I actually had the plan to go back. And uh yeah, then while I was in Germany fixing my car, I uh I met another woman and then things changed again.

It's all always the love stories that they they change our lives. So often on the podcast we we hear this as well. Like even it's funny, I've had, I guess a hundred and twenty people on the podcast maybe and you know, just the last episode I recorded had a very similar story to you and also moved to Germany. Uh so it's it's funny how the coincidences are are so, because it could have been any episode I talked to you or or to, you know, Maria as well. She has a very similar story. And uh well, she didn't go van traveling as far as I know, but she also went to Germany for for love and uh stayed there. So um that's great.

Yeah, so I don't know exact the numbers but like uh more or less 30% of the population are Russians and um, not all of those people actually came there by their choice as well. I mean, it's you know, story of a history how those people ended up there, like uh during the occupation, but some of those people they, they, they were privileged. They didn't have to learn Estonian and uh when things changed, they didn't felt like uh, I mean, some of them were already quite old, right, to and then it was not so easy for them to learn.

That's it. really strange. Yeah. But it's even stranger if if if you have a, let's say a population, quite a significant population that has a specific native language and if the government is trying to kind of undermine that part of the part of the people, that's also kind of uh problematic. Yeah. You know, it goes both ways, right? Yeah, I mean you definitely want, I would encourage most people, it's the same with Wales, I guess. Like you would encourage most people in Wales to learn at least some Welsh so you can understand a little bit. But most people do not probably on a on average. Uh but same with Irish, I think. You know, there are certain pockets of of those languages around.

Mhm.

But it's not that way in Estonia, is it?

No, it isn't. And in fact, it's actually, it's quite separated and I had never understood the reason really. And uh, I've been now quite a long time in in Germany and I mean in Germany there's like a big Turkish population and then Italian population. But the funny thing in Estonia is that uh, there are separate schools. There are separate uh sport uh clubs. So, there are schools where just Russian people go to and the the the teaching is done in in Russian, so, in the morning you wake up, you go to the school, all your friends speaks Russian. I mean, there are some some lessons also in Estonian, of course they have to, but uh then all the time they still speak Russian. And then they go home and they go to your football club or training or whatever and they again speak Russian and they go home and their parents speak Russian. So, there's like almost like, I mean, the first friend, the first Russian friend I actually had was here in Munich. It's kind of weird.

Wow. And then you call the government office and they only speak Estonian. It's kind of strange.

Yeah. Exactly.

Well, anyway, I didn't want to take up too much time with that. I just I just saw a video this morning of uh, there was some uh meeting with the Prime Minister and and Putin for the first they had a meeting for the first time in like 10 years, so hopefully they will uh improve the the relationship there.

Yeah, I hope so.

That that will be good for for everyone, I think. Um, get some better trade and some better, yeah, I think trade for the big part is is probably the the thing and I always say that it doesn't actually matter who you're talking to but communication always matters, even if it's your worst enemy or you know, some people are like, oh, why is uh Trump suddenly talking to Kim Jong Un, the dictator of this, you know, weird fantasy country in North Korea. But I was like, you prefer him not to do to talk to him. It's like this crazy evil genius uh who's sitting in a cave somewhere in uh North Korea and I'd rather have the talks with the with the bad guy than completely ignore him. But anyway, that's not to say that Putin's not bad in any way. I I think there's a lot of uh sides to that story that this podcast can't really get into. But um, yeah. But yeah, just wanted to touch on that just for my own curiosity.

Um, aha moments when when learning languages myself?

Yeah, just like what kind of uh what kind of things have you discovered or realized about language learning from from your first experiences back in school, which I assume were kind of negative as most people's are. And then to like the modern world today where we have so many different options and apps and and uh programs and courses and everything.

Yeah, I think um, things are actually obvious. Uh I haven't heard all of your interviews but I have heard a few and uh what people will say and I will I will say the same is that you really need to use the language. If you just learn it for fun and you don't really try to use it then you will forget everything. Um I took one semester Arabic in a university just out of interest uh just you know, for fun. I couldn't even get like ECTS or like points for uh for it. It was no use for my studies but I just did it. But I I really didn't use it. So whatever I did in this half a year, it's completely gone. And um, yeah, if you, if you start using it and if you have to use it, of course, then you will make the the the the biggest uh progress.

Oh, and you didn't get bored in the beginning when you didn't understand much of what was going on?

I did, to be honest. It was it was not fun because you you watch something and you don't understand a lot, but I I said myself, hey, this is an experiment, just do it like uh a few weeks and see if if something happens, you know, just just uh do it and then uh my girlfriend she, she could speak uh French pretty okay. So for her it was not boring. I was just uh lying next to her and then trying to to go uh through it with her together and yeah, it it definitely paid off. Very soon.

Yeah, that's fantastic. I mean uh I guess after you see it start working, then it's easier to keep doing maybe. And then as you improve, maybe you actually start to understand, so you get those maybe it starts becoming rewarding after a few weeks where of torture.

Yeah.

Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, I think um, the time you mentioned in the van, you were doing a startup. Was that a a language study startup as well just to get the background or was that another tech?

Back then, in the van I was no, it was it was a different thing. It was like uh online printing company. So, essentially we were designing uh pictures uh that were printed on on canvases and then all kind of materials just as a decoration, gift, uh this kind of thing, yeah.

Okay. So when did you when did you start getting into uh language as a as a professional, so to speak?

It started in in in France then. Um, as I was learning French, I I, as I said, I started off with Netflix and then I wanted to actually learn the things that I understand and then I was again using some self-studying methods and then books and then I started to write down vocabulary. Uh first I started on a piece of paper, then I said, that's not efficient, so I started using Anki. This was too difficult for me. I was so much effort to set those things up and then I was I didn't find really efficient so I moved on to Quizlet. I don't know if you have ever used Quizlet for that.

I've tried it, yeah. Didn't really like it that much either.

Yeah, but it was it was kind of, it was fine for me. It it worked but I realized it's it's not that efficient as well because it's not really made for for languages. It's uh designed for studying geography or whatever, you know. And then I had I I had the idea of uh building a vocabulary trainer that is uh like super easy to use. I mean, I must admit Quizlet is is pretty pretty easy to use, like from user experience uh um standpoint, but with some power like Anki. This was the vision so I started like still in in in Marseille, I started to uh code myself a vocabulary trainer.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think I have one of the books here somewhere.

Yeah, yeah. And um, they have an online business of of a dictionary, so we we plugged it to the to the dictionary, people were able to look the words and then then add them for learning into this vocabulary trainer. Um, but what it didn't end up is uh we didn't end up convincing the users, yeah.

Ah, well.

So, I've I've been working 10 years in the in the tech space and with apps and and uh services, so I had like kind of a sense for for retention uh rates and then KPIs and I just felt it, uh, it's it's not going anywhere. I mean, we were doing some sales, like for Langenscheidt we also um sold it under the label of Langenscheidt, but it was it was not really something I saw that, hey, we just need to uh put some more marketing money in and then this will scale.

Yeah.

People don't get enough speaking practice. I mean, you you speak a lot about uh iTalki and and uh how important it is to actually speak to people. And and we we really hit like a train, I mean, it was obvious all the way, but we we said like, hey, um, forget about this vocabulary trainer. I mean, there are so many flashcard apps out there doing it. Uh let's try to solve the speaking part but let's try to solve it with some some cool emergency emerging technology like the voice recognition and and so we started working actually on a on a second product which we at this time imagined like a like a teacher kind of Siri Siri thing, uh teaching you languages.

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Well, that's an interesting one. I mean, we've had uh voice recognition in in some of these apps for a while, like uh I think Duolingo had it for for a couple maybe even a few years now. I've seen it definitely a while. So what's what's the what's the new development in that area that enables you to build something new?

So, yeah, for sure. Duolingo has it, Bubble has it. Uh also Rosetta Stone has it. But the the the issue here is how these apps are designed and they are still designed for the thumb, yeah. Because the interface, the main interface today is the thumb. Most people use those apps on their on their mobile phones. So what you end up doing is actually clicking on these pictures and saying, hey, this is milk. This is a dog. And then you fill in some some sentences and says like, the cat drinks milk. And then you can say the same sentence in like, speak it out loud. It's it's possible. And this is the the voice recognition part. But this is not really the conversation you will have with somebody, you know, you don't meet somebody on a street and then just look at them and say like, cat drinks milk, you know, it's uh, it's the, it's it's very isolated how you learn those things. I mean, you still learn like in in, yeah. Not even always, but sometimes you learn it in full sentences. But it's not really, really that you you prepared you for real life situations. And this is what we imagined, I don't know if you have seen the film, uh, the movie Her, have you seen it?

Her? No, I don't think so.

Her. There's a a guy who who falls in love with his uh voice assistant. It's like a like imagine like a Windows or like operating system being uh on his mobile phone and then operated just by voice. And we imagine something like this, you know, that you can actually have conversations with it. You can, you can actually speak, it will ask you, hey, Kris, uh, what did you do today, you know, and you say, I went for a walk. And and you know, this this kind of conversations you will have actually with with real people later and this is what we started then to working on and what what essentially emerged to to Magic Lingua. What we offer now today.

Right. And how long have you been working on that?

We have been working on that now for around a year. Um, on this second product, it's technically pretty challenging, um, especially if you think like you have to uh handle, I mean, you try to do voice recognition with people that don't even speak well, yeah. They don't have that uh good accent. So there are some some trickery you need to solve. Yeah.

Right. Well, yeah, it sounds like a big task if if you're if you're willing to or if you want to accept every answer. I don't know how that that will be possible. Um, it might be a little bit frustrating if if if it's kind of free but not really. But um, but if if you have the technology and you can keep advancing it then it that could be really good, yeah. Because the problem with Duolingo as you said or other apps is that you're kind of bound by what they want you to say and the sentences are not very natural at all. So it doesn't really make a lot of sense, whereas if you could say anything then you are practicing that part of the brain that you will be tested on if you go out on the street and and talk to people.

Yeah, that's true. It's it's technically very, very challenging, that's why I said we we started with uh like right now it's it's more, it's more limited. So if there is a question like for example, um, how are you doing? I mean, there are there are different ways to say it, but they're not endless. There are maybe 20, 20 ways to say, how are you doing? Uh like different sentence structures and then you can use some some different adjectives uh to express some some emotions. And then you have a pattern that gives you maybe I don't know, 20, 30, 50 sentences and we can still understand if it's one of those. So right now, you have some some freedom to say things but the the way we ask the questions and the way we do the exercises we do them in a way that it's a it's a bit limited what you can say.

Sure, well, you have to start somewhere, you know, you can't build the, you can't start out by building the castle, you know, you need to build the the parts of it first and then then build from there.

Yeah.

But in terms of getting into sort of the this, you know, the business side of things, um, let's say somebody's sitting out there and they're quite technical or they they want to build something. They have a great idea for an app or maybe even a a service or a website or something. How would you recommend they start out and did did you, did you do everything yourself with your friends or did you get outside help or like did you have a, who was who's actually building, who's actually doing the technical building, uh programming?

We are a technical team. So, all of all us three actually can code. I'm a horrible coder, so I haven't coded almost anything in this thing, just at the beginning, some of the front ends but um the other two guys, we found it the company with three guys. Um, the other two are really, really good coders, so the technical part was, I mean, it was covered, uh it was covered in the team. Um, but I think even more important than to solve the the technical part, because I asked for advice is at the beginning to understand what to build. And to do that, you don't need to really need to build anything. There are different methods of how to, how to test ideas. I mean, you can start off with paper prototypes and all of this kind of thing, things so you don't really you don't really need to build first until you understand what is the pain you're going to solve and if the solution you have thought of is uh is a good way to solve it.

Mhm. And then you do user research was very valuable in that. You did weeks and weeks of research with the students.

Yeah, I think I'm I don't know the numbers anymore but it definitely took like uh weeks, I think months before we even started to really really code it. Uh one of the guys he he just started to check out the the voice recognition technologies, just to see what is possible. Um right now we do it only in the browsers. We are we are building the app. And it's it's a bit tricky. So we need to, I mean, you cannot build a technology completely yourselves, so you need to somehow um rely on some APIs that

Of course, yeah.

that big tech companies provide you. We use uh Google, we use uh Amazon technologies and then build our own models on top of that. Um yeah, these these ones you can, you can test out but this it's it's pretty tricky, yeah. But for the for the testing parts, yeah, I think we started off with with just uh paper prototypes, which essentially is that you envision how this thing looks like and then you just uh start interviewing people and showing it to the people and uh and uh trying to to imitate, I think we did also in in Skype the speaking part, doing as if you were talking to a robot, but you were talking to actually a human, just to see if if the exercises and then the way we envisioned it uh makes sense.

Right. Yeah, that's a I think that's the best way to do it. Again, you're building from the bottom. You you asking your core audience what they want, give them what they want and then or even before you you give them what they want, you show them this is how it's going to look. What do you think about this? And then building it from that way. I think that that that has to be the way to go.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Uh just for the listeners, um there are many, many books on that on on Lean Startups and and what you just uh I think uh mentioned was this minimal viable product. If you put it to the Google, you will end up in in a lot of blog articles and and and books that explain methods how to, how to go about it.

Yeah, I think and this is this is one thing I really like about the time we live in now, the, you know, the $100 startup idea that you can basically start any business now that you want uh by yourself for for barely any money. I mean, a domain name is like 10 bucks and hosting is like five bucks a month or something and you've got essentially a business. If you're a language teacher, if you're if you have skills in anything, like obviously your skills is technical, your friend's skills are technical, so it was natural for you to go into that. But if you know everything there is to know about Swedish grammar, you can build a business out of that for sure. I mean, I'm not talking about becoming the next uh, you know, Steve Jobs or anything, but if you can make, you know, a full-time living doing exactly what you want to do and maybe that includes going in a van around the Costa del Sol, you know, then that's great. I think that that's really what I would promote as well.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

But we have to speak about, we have to speak about the money though, because I'm sure people are listening and they're like, yeah, all this sounds great. We're, you know, great idea and and you you're making it happen. You have a team but you three people working on it and obviously the the the money in in apps as we all know, you know, they're kind of what are they, you know, a couple of pounds on the app store, they have some monthly recurring subscriptions. So, I guess people might be a little bit dying to know how are you how are you living in in a in a thing that takes a year to create before you even ready with the first iteration of the product? And I I noticed you have a a Kickstarter as well. So maybe you want to just uh plug that as well right now.

Yeah, sure. So, for the for the first product, um, of course I cannot really reveal any specifics, but the white label solutions uh we did were also bringing in some money. So, this helped back then. We still decided to to ditch it and start working on something else. So, we are still bootstrapping. We have financed ourselves. Um, all of us are doing uh once in a while, what I call uh side quests, yeah, which essentially means we are we are working as uh freelancers and and doing uh some work for other companies uh either like uh um, yeah, I'm doing a lot in in in the area of of analytics and and uh marketing and then product management and my colleagues more in in design and development. And uh this is how we, how we finance uh so far the startup.

Sure.

And um, yeah, with this with this uh, I think um, with this initial money, we we are able to complete the courses. So we really focus now on on completing uh German and Spanish. We have partnered uh with somebody to create the courses because we don't like none of the three co-founders are are, you know, have some some really like uh scientific language background. We have uh one woman on team. She's a Spanish teacher and she, she knows more about didactics are like, we three together. But we we cooperated with for for German. uh we're doing it with uh Learn German with Anya. It's I don't know if one of or or the biggest uh German learning channel on YouTube and she knows tons about how to, how to teach languages. She has been teacher herself. So, um this also helps. I mean, obviously we have some some deals with her and the same for Spanish which then allows us to produce the courses uh without uh investing ourselves also in that uh too much, let's say, yeah.

Fantastic. And back to the the the, you know, the Lean Startup idea again, you know, of uh not taking, you know, there's a lot of apps that I've seen that has uh a lot of funding from big companies or a VC backing or and it's just uh it surprises me every time how it's possible. I mean people must be ridiculously good at selling themselves because I'm seeing like flashcard apps get a couple of millions in funding and I'm like, okay. Well, there's like hundreds of flashcard apps. So, but I guess if you have millions to throw at marketing then you can maybe sell a couple of million courses as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah.

Yeah, maybe. Yeah, it just it surprises me.

Yeah, it was, it was also a discussion. Yeah. It was also a decision we we made. We wanted we said we want to make the first revenues on our own. So we don't want, it might be that we raise money at some point to grow, but then really to to be able to grow and not uh like start testing out the ideas. We wanted to do it on our own. We have done quite some some uh testing also on pricing and then payments actually before we started Kickstarter. Um, we have done it quite extensively and also invested some money to to buy users, yeah, traffic by traffic and see how if they would convert. Um, something that is called smoke tests in the in the industry. Right. Um, yeah, trying to figure out if we could actually sell and at which pricing points we could sell and now we are getting, starting to get this traction with the Kickstarter. And um, yeah, once we have it and and can start selling, then we'll see how to do the next step.

And how do you envision once you're once you're ready with like the the the public release uh what what kind of price model will it have for let's let's ignore the the Kickstarter and all the early bird pricing and everything. If I open it up in my in my phone like when it's ready, what what kind of model will we be using? If you know, of course.

We, to be honest, we still need to to figure it out. We have done few tests. So, one way we don't want to go is what we, what we do now in in Kickstarter. There's a we we uh offer a lifetime uh lifetime licenses. So, this is something we really want to just uh keep for the people backing on on Kickstarter, like a like a perk, like an extra. So, we will go with some kind of subscription models. I don't know if monthly or maybe like yearly or like three monthly. Uh we don't know yet. And um, we also want to, want to, because we put in lot of lot of effort with this um with doing the videos and also having those uh tutoring sessions in the packages. We want to go more into the segment of of uh premium pricing. So, we don't want to compete with with Duolingo being free or with Bubble costing like $8 a month. Um, but putting together packages that also offer more but then also cost more giving us a bit more um margin and possibilities to grow.

That makes sense, yeah. I I think that's a good idea. I mean, I've I've had for a long time quite a, I've I've been very impressed with apps for a long time because uh, you know, as a as an influencer, if you can call it, even though I hate that word, I get a lot of emails from people who, hey, this is X from Y, we just developed this fantastic new language learning application. Would you like to give us a link on your website? And I check it out and I'm like, I see absolutely nothing new. It's just it's just flashcards in a different package. So it's kind of exciting that you are trying to bring something new to the table and I would definitely encourage people listening if you have maybe if you have a creative or technical background and you want to like build apps or or services. I mean, the time now is great. But like don't make another flashcard app. Don't really just don't, you know, make something something new.

But it's it's it's so true. It's so true what you say. Like, one of the first questions you will get and especially if these are business people, yeah, our our first business mentors, the first uh uh chats we had or like if you have talked to some some other founders or investors, first question is like, what is what is your USP? How do you, how do you differentiate with others? Like, how is it different from from Rosetta Stone or how is it different from from Duolingo? And you have to be different. If you say like, it's the same but better, then everybody will roll their eyes and say, yeah, yeah, you wish.

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And but it's a funny thing because obviously the the the fact that flashcard apps are so popular also means that people actually do use them quite a lot. I mean, there's a market for them. So it's kind of like a dilemma in a way because there's a proven market, but at the same time, there's only so many things you can do with flashcards, you know, you can't at the end of the day add much revolution to that market. So it's hard to break into for sure. But but at least there is a market, you know, if you made up something completely new like, I don't know, uh language sports or something where you learn through football or basketball, I don't know. You know, something completely crazy then people might not care at all. So that's the other risk.

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. It's it's still has to solve a pain and the solution you propose, it has to be something that the customers are willing to to use as a solution and that is fun and also motivating. I mean, motivation probably is one of the biggest problems actually in in language learning, yeah. If you, if you're forced to then you will learn but if you're not, like me learning, let's say Arabic, then, you know, how do you motivate yourself? So how do you, how do you keep the motivation and that's it, it's it's actually one of the biggest villains in in in language learning.

Yeah, we it's like uh a couple of episodes ago we talked about it and I think we gave it like a 90% out of a hundred where, you know, it's 90% motivation, 10% what you actually do. Because it's without the motivation, you just get nothing done and you just get stuck.

Yeah. And I think Duolingo, especially specifically has been so popular because they have uh really perfect at the the gamification thing. They were the first ones really doing it really, really well and and with all these patches and points and this this funny all uh trying to motivate you. Um, but still people do it what we hear is a lot is like, yeah, two, three weeks and then then, you know, this streak gets lost and then then you somehow drop out. So, if anybody is starting starting uh new language learning business, I think if somebody finds really clever ways to keep people motivated, whatever it is, um, it's it's a huge like a huge win already, huge advantage.

Yeah, but also I think the problem I have with Duolingo is that it's very nice to have an app that people can just get, download and just start using and it's kind of fun and it's exciting and it's very colorful, it has fun sentences, it's very, you know, like you said with the owl, it's very branded and it has a lot of different languages available. And nothing makes me more happy when I see people posting that, oh, I finished the French tree or the Italian tree or whatever they went, because that's a lot of lessons. Like, I started working on the Russian one like years ago and I don't think I'm one third through. I I I like you mentioned before, I was one of those people who kind of did it for a few weeks and then lost interest, but still it's a lot of lessons.

Yeah, yeah, it's true. It I guess it depends on on on the goal you have. Like, if your goal is to to get a certificate, it might even work. I think in one of the recent episodes you were talking to somebody about uh how languages are learned in the school and how people just value you uh memorizing the vocabulary and grammar and then you pass the test in a school and then you go on a street and then you get into a situation where you really need to figure out something quickly, you know, metro not running, I don't know. And then you just uh realize you cannot ask those people, you know, you can ask but you don't you don't you don't understand the the the answer you ask the next question you need to do, you know, it's uh yeah, if speaking is the goal, I think there is no way around of actually starting to speak and whatever the solution is, you need to really get your muscles going and then your your tongue and then mouth making those sounds and and I just recently uh I think two weeks ago I came across a study that said, it was not related to language learning, but it said that um, they they did a study and they found out that whatever you learn, if you speak it out loud, the memorizing effect is stronger if you are just reading it. So even if you, if you learn, I don't know, geography and then saying out loud all of those names and I think it's especially helpful also in language learning, of course, because if you say those things loud, if you say it even to yourself in the morning, in the shower, I think that the learning effect is is stronger if you're just trying to read a book or or watch a series.

Yeah, definitely. I heard that from uh Ed Cook, the CEO of Memorize. He I I did a little language experiment at the Memorize office a few years ago where we we were there for two days and he gave us some tips on how to optimize learning. And one of them was, uh like he said, be sure to say it out loud. The other one was get enough sleep. And before you go to bed, read uh read the list of what you've learned that day. So if you had, let's say you planned to do 20 words of vocabulary that day. Read those 20 words again, just you know, just skim through them and then when you wake up in the morning, go through the list again. And those are the the most powerful ones. The other one that's a bit uh that's a bit of a uh, I would guess it's it's not obvious, but if you see, if you if you're tested on something, let's say it's uh let's say it's a flashcard like app and and it says, what's the German word for car? You will remember it better if you make a guess, which is kind of funny. Uh so if you, if you're learning a completely new word that you don't know, it's if you guess at it and then you're shown what it the real answer is, then you memorize it better. So that's kind of a, that's a funny one but uh,

Brain hacks.

Yeah, exactly. That's why I get but, you know, you know, I don't know if you know Ed but he's like a, he's like a mad genius, so uh everything he says, I I I totally believe and Memorize obviously sponsored a lot of university research when it comes to memorization. So, he definitely know knows what he's talking about in memory wise. But that won't surprise me a little bit if you, if you guess at it and uh that that was a, I I I always try to do that before.

I think the time is also is also really good is because the the language learning learning market itself, uh measured in dollars, in revenue, is actually decreasing. Which is first, at the first sight a bit of uh surprising because you will think like, hey, all of those people in the rural areas of India and China starting to learn languages, it must it must grow, but it doesn't. It actually goes down. But if you zoom in into the market and you look at the digital part, you will see there's like a huge growth in digital language learning. which essentially shows that what actually is happening is the market is transforming. It's transforming from the old school analog learning of uh schools, books, I don't know what to digital solutions and I think there are many, many opportunities, even though the space is very crowded, I think there are still a lot of opportunities actually to to find some some cool niches where you can uh set yourself in.

I think so. And and it takes nothing, honestly. Like if you want to make let's say the Swedish course, right? Let take your phone, get a nice background, try and get it as nice as you can. Just record yourself teaching Swedish, which is your passion. Put it on a free platform, sell it. The margins are like 95%. You know, it's crazy compared to let's say 30 years ago if you wanted to publish a book, you had to convince some kind of publisher to even run it and you had, you know, the margins would be you'd make 1% per sale or something. And the margins are still like that today, which is crazy, but now you can luckily self publish via Amazon and stuff to make, I don't know, 70% margin, but that's why I think it's transforming.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

But anyway, it's been a pleasure to talk to you, Silver and I wish you all the best with Magic Lingua. I hope that you uh yeah, I hope that you prove my, I guess uh uh pet peeve against language apps wrong and become a massive success because that's what we always want to see. We always want to see people succeed. And is there any other places where people can look you up for more information, uh what what kind of websites and and where do they go?

So, our website is uh magic lingua.com. Um, I don't know if you will add links to this later for uh for the Kickstarter campaign. And um, yeah, if if the if somebody wants to write me directly, you will find me on on on LinkedIn, I guess, on on Facebook. Uh my name is pretty unique, so uh just look up my name and you will find me.

Perfect. Perfect. That might be some uh aspiring uh you know, app creators out there, some programmers who uh might want to help you out or when you grow, they might be looking to send you their CV.

Yeah, sure, sure, sure. sure.

That would be great. Well, thank you so much and uh have a a great Easter weekend as well.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Actual Fluency Podcast. I really appreciate having you here today. Just before you leave, I just want to give a quick shout out to today's sponsor, which is iTalki. iTalki is the tutoring platform where you can find affordable tutors for every language in the world pretty much. So, get started today and get a free $10 credit when you book your first lesson. If you go to actualfluency.com/italki and that's spelled I T A L K I. So, give it a go and feel how tutoring can really boost and enhance your language learning.