Carole Westerkamp: Language Learning and NLP

Season 2, episode 9 with Carol Vestacop, language learning and NLP. This is the actual fluency podcast, helping you become a better language learner by providing motivating weekly inspiration, as well as top tips and tricks from expert guests. And now, your host, Chris Broholm.

I'm doing fine, thank you. You sound like you have a bit of a cold, though.

Yeah. Yeah, that's the tax for going to Berlin, I guess, uh, the gathering. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I'm feeling much better now and, uh, and you're feeling good?

I'm feeling fine, thanks. A bit nostalgic, though, missing the, the atmosphere in Berlin.

Yeah, let-

Polyglots together.

Yeah. It's always fun to go to, uh, meet a lot of polyglots. It's always so inspiring and motivational. And I'm, I'm sure we'll get into that in just a few minutes, but before we get into that, can we just get a little, um, who's Carol? You know, what's your story? How did you get into learning languages? Uh, because I know you speak a ton of languages. I actually don't know how many at this point, but how do you get into learning all these languages and, and sort of what's the, the story behind it?

Ha, well, first of all, I'm Dutch, but you might say I'm like half Dutch because my mom was Canadian. So I was brought up bilingually, that helps. Um, brought up in the Netherlands but speaking English at home. And then in the Netherlands, at school we learn German and French as well. It depends a little bit on your, uh, level of, of schooling, but well, most people do learn at least some of, uh, German and French.

Wow.

Well, not like crowdsurfing. In a different way, maybe.

Really, that would be fun, though.

Yeah. And, and it's, I don't know, I just seem to pick up the logic of the language. You know, so people often say, oh, how about the grammar? And I say, yeah, well, if I hear people saying, um, for instance, in Spanish or Italian the the the I is always with an o in the end, then I just pick that up. I don't need to consciously study that. So it's hablar, it's yo hablo, you know. And, um, I don't know, comer, yo como. And that that's something people don't understand and maybe I don't even understand it myself, but I just, well, pick it up.

Hmm, that's really interesting because when we were talking in Berlin recently, it it seemed like you just kind of picked up languages. It didn't seem like much of a sort of a study effort like a lot of people have to, you know, sit at the desk and go through some teaching courses and maybe, you know, have some tutoring and then maybe half a year later they're at a sort of a mediocre base level, but that you you seem genuinely talented at, at picking up languages. Would that be a, a good assessment?

Well, it's, I find it hard to say that about myself, but I think it is the case because, um, when I first went to the first polyglot conference in, um, where was it, Budapest. I actually said that. I said I'm a lazy polyglot because I heard of all these people, you know, wanting to take up their languages to the next level and studying like 20 minutes a day or 40 or whatever time slot. And I thought, uh, I don't study. I don't really study. And my latest language, um, well, that I've been consciously studying for the first time was Greek, or is Greek. So I go to Greek class every week, during an hour. But then again, I hardly ever do homework. And I see my fellow students, uh, you know, struggling with grammar and they're not understanding things. And I, I don't know. If the teacher explains like one time, I think, oh, aha, yeah, that makes sense. If I hadn't understood it already. And then, well, you know, there it is.

Right.

I'm not 100% sure.

Well, it's de- well, also it's, it's an imperfect science, anyway, isn't it? I mean, you can't say that this is how it works because it's some boxes that we drew up sort of arbitrarily to sort of match behavior. And when you go that way, it's always like you squeeze people into the boxes instead of making the boxes bigger or different shapes or whatever, you know.

Right.

So, um, so I don't think it's a, for me it's, it's, it's very interesting either way because I think that something you said earlier is, is also very important. Like you said that you told yourself that you were good at languages.

Mm-hmm.

Because that that must have boosted it immensely at the beginning where most people's experience with language start with, okay, we get a free native language, maybe two. And they don't worry about learning anything. And then they get to school and they have those boring grammar lessons and they don't really get anywhere. And then they're like, oh, I'm rubbish at languages. And then you start sort of telling yourself that you're terrible at languages, and then, I mean, that's when it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it?

Yes, I think you're right. But maybe even more important there is, is just the the interest because I think even before I told myself I was good at it, I was so interested in communicating. So I actually have always seen a language as well, the means to communicate with people. And I myself am a teacher now of English and German. And this is actually what I miss in my students and and can't seem to, well, anyway, not in all cases, uh, am able to kindle, you know, to to awaken that spirit in them, this curiosity like, oh, so how do I say that in different language?

Right.

They treat it a little bit like math, maybe, where it's you have to remember some facts and

Yes.

Right. Although the funny thing was, you know, people also say sometimes that, well, if you're good at maths, you're not good at languages.

Hmm.

And actually, a colleague of mine who is a physics teacher, he said, well, I discovered that languages are very logical.

Yeah.

Uh, in, in, I mean, in a sense, it's like learning, um, well, math. You know, like, anything, um, you you you have a number like x to the might two plus four is eight. So, what what is x, you know? And actually, that is the way how languages do work. Like if you have a verb, let me take, uh, the Spanish hablar again, then, okay, if you put yo in front, in front of it, then what, what does it change to? So there is, there is this logic.

Right.

And, And I don't know, maybe that's what I understand quickly in a language. Maybe that helps in language learning, you know?

Right. And, of course, there's also the element of assimilation, which is, uh, which actually it took me a really long time to realize that Assimil, the French company name, actually was based on the word assimilation.

Oh.

Took me like 100 years. I was like, Assimil, that's such a nice name. And then one day I was like, this is really an assimilation, oh, wait.

Oh.

You know. So that's pretty funny. But it, it does sound like that's what you're doing. And, and I know a lot of people are are quite good at, they sort of, when they get a lot of comprehensible input, they sort of decode what's important. And I know that, that's some, something you also talked about in your, uh, talk at Budapest. You talked about how, you know, if our minds had to really consider everything we saw and consider all of the input, then we would be, you know, doing nothing but just being overpowered all the time. So, a lot gets pushed into the, I guess it's just a subconscience or maybe not even registered. Maybe it just goes out again. But, uh, that's also got something to do with it that you know from experience as well that, oh, this word I won't really need. I don't know, the word for, I don't know, moving piston in an engineering piece or something. I mean, you just realize, okay, the chances I'm going to use this in Italian or whatever is quite limited. So I'd probably better learn the word for, uh, a drink or a beer or something, you know, that you'd actually use.

Yes, that's true. Yeah, that's, that's indeed something I do try to do in school with my students. Well, actually, I don't try, I do it.

Right.

Um, I, I tell them, okay, what words would you want to know if you go to a place where they speak German or English, you know? What what would you want to communicate with people? That's why coursebooks usually start with things about yourself and your own world because, yeah, hey, that's what we talk about when we speak to others. Exactly.

Don't speak about 20 different kinds of birds.

No, because the funny thing is I, I did an Arabic course. And one of the first words, and the funny thing is, of course, that's the word that sticks most to my mind, is the word for, and I don't think I even know it in, in English. Uh, it's called Quitten, in German. Quitte or quepair. What is it in English? It's a kind of a-

It's a sparrow or something?

No, it's a pear that you can't eat.

Oh.

You can put it, you can make it to jelly. But in Arabic, it's called Saffarjala. Now, if I don't even know the word in English,

Right.

And, I mean, funnily enough in Berlin, uh, staying at my uncle's place, he made jelly or jam, actually, a kind of a marmalade from this, these Quitten. That's why I know the word in German now. But I mean, I thought, what's, why would I want to know that word, you know, in a in a language if I don't, well, I had never eaten it up to then. And that's what coursebooks often do.

Yeah, that's a shame, I think that they focus on these things because one of the big aha moments for me was when I was looking at the kind of hacking foreign language conversation. I was looking at the work Anthony Lauder did, for instance, where he said, well, you might not know all the nouns, but or so the so-called important things, but you can just learn, first of all, you can just learn the word thing if you're doing English. So you can say like, the thing that flies, for instance. Or you can have those sentence connectors, you know, where you can say, hmm, that's a good question. Because that gives you some time to think about-

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

What's the, what's the real word that I'm looking for here?

That's true.

Um, so for me, that was quite cool that, well, you don't really know need to know much. It's just like, uh, you know, that thing, that person, that place. I mean, that's covers pretty much every noun in the world. And most of the time, people are gonna understand from context, or you can add another word to it. So, like, uh, that it becomes a little bit toki pona-ish. But anyway, you know, you can say like holy man. That's obviously a minister or, uh, or the Pope or something.

Exactly. Well, I always teach my my students as well to learn opposites. Like, I say, okay, you learn, uh, fat and thin. And then if you don't remember the word for thin, then you say, not fat.

Exactly. That's 50% vocabulary right there.

Yeah.

That's, that's genius. And, Esperanto, of course, is famous for having these features built in where you can just, you can just, uh, put a prefix on a word and then it instantly turns it into the opposite.

Yes.

Um, for instance, I was at an Esperanto course in Berlin. And I couldn't remember the word for man. So I just said, mal, uh, virino, I think. So, not woman.

Yeah.

And, uh, they understood me. Of course, they corrected me because it's not good, uh, Esperanto form. But, uh, you know, the point is being understood, isn't it? It's not about being correct. That's also one of the pillars is, uh, you know, you should just speak and be understood. And then as you get feedback, as you hear more input, you the language automatically corrects itself, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. The funny thing is, I think most people are very scared of making mistakes. And, um, well, this was also a topic in Novi Sad, of course. And Claudio also points it out that if you speak of mistakes, you know, then that automatically implies that it's wrong. So, um, yeah, mistakes on itself is a word that, well, it doesn't come in handy for language learning because I think you should just speak. And whenever it is not completely correct, people will tell you what the correct form is. But if you see it as a mistake, then it's like, oh my God, you know, I made a mistake.

Right.

So that also helps. Just speak. And the funny thing is, I haven't ever learned Esperanto yet, um, but, uh, Sylvain, you know, the French guy who's lived in Holland for a long time, who teaches Esperanto, he spoke to me like an hour in Esperanto. And I spoke back to him in Spanish. And we had a perfect conversation.

Yeah.

And it was really cool. And the same actually happened when I spoke to Yakob. He spoke Yiddish to me, and I spoke German back. And then, you know, after like five minutes, we completely forgot that the other person didn't really speak our language, or only had a certain level. And, well, sometimes if we didn't quite understand, we were like, uh, sorry. And then, well, you use other words and you understand each other.

Exactly. And before we move on to the next question, Carol, I just wanted to take a moment to listen to a message from our sponsor.

What does it take to be able to make mistakes? Because I was, when I started out in language learning, I was exactly the same. I was like, I needed to be sure that the sentence was correct before I sent it off.

Mm-hmm.

Like if I was doing IM or stuff. And, of course, I could never really know, but I, my sort of, um, proofing was, okay, am I relatively sure of this sentence. And I'm like, uh, okay. So, if I if I pasted it into Google Translate, and it didn't give any, you know, suggestions below, that was kind of my error filter. And of course, it's not perfect, but it just shows you the fear of mistakes to a degree where I should have just really just been typing and not really bothered too much about it. I mean, of course, there's some element of learning in it as well, but it also really inhibited my speaking because I would be thinking so hard about the next sentence about not, I don't want to make a mistake, so I need to prepare the sentence.

Yeah. Well, I can relate to that. Uh, I have, I had that problem with Arabic. I had a teacher from Iran. And she was actually the only one I spoke, or I could speak Arabic to. And I've always felt very inhibited. But I, so I think it depends also on the receiving party. If you find a teacher or or anybody who you are speaking to or, well, typing with, let's say, I think they should give you the, the confidence or they should, how should I put that? Install in you the confidence that it doesn't matter whatever you say, whatever you write, you know, they'll just kind of shrug it off and correct you in a soft way because I'm not sure who said it. I've I've been attending so many lectures at all these conferences. Maybe it was Anthony Lauder. Maybe it was someone else who said, well, you know, if there's somebody who really behaves like, uh, well, this is not a very nice word, the grammar nazi as they sometimes call them, you know. Or they immediately say, no, no, you shouldn't say that, you should say this. Well, then you're kind of put off and you think, oops. Then you think twice the next time before you say anything or write anything. But if it's somebody who just matter-of-factly corrects you, then it's like, oh, okay, it's okay to make non-correct sentences.

Yeah, and I find that in a sort of of a real environment, like if you're in a gathering and you're practicing languages, people are very un-unlikely to correct you. I mean, if they're native speakers, of course, they have a higher propensity to do so. But if they're not native speakers but have a really high level in the language, they know the struggles that you you're going through. So they'll sort of just say, as long as they understand you, they'll let you keep speaking, which I think is the, is the most important thing. And definitely what changed for me was that I suddenly just threw caution to the wind and I was just speaking and my tutor had to be like, what is that mean? Because I I was starting to make up words in Russian, which, uh,

Oh, that's so funny.

Sometimes you can do that in, particularly in Russian because it's so logical that, you know, you can change words from, uh, nouns to adjectives to, uh, verbs by some very common endings. But, of course, there are exceptions and they don't all have that ending. It's not Esperanto, after all. But and she was like, what is that mean? And actually, sometimes I would get frustrated that she couldn't see the connection.

Yeah.

You know.

Like, I can see it. How come you don't see it? Yeah.

Yeah, or like if you use the different, uh, verb, you know, in in Russian, there are like 10 different words to to for the English to go, depending if you're going one way or back, or if you're going if you're going by foot, or if you're going by vehicle, blah, blah, blah. There's tons of them. And sometimes she would just not understand at all, even just because I used the wrong go. And I was like, why don't you understand? Because it's in English. I I know that go can mean any form.

Mm-hmm.

And I was, then I then I took it a step further and I was like, well, even if you don't understand the exact meaning, can't you sort of can't you just go inside my head and see what I'm trying to say?

Exactly.

You know.

Well, I had it, I found it even, um, an example, I don't even know how to call it, but I was in the Dominican Republic and I, well, I thought I already spoke Spanish very well and I asked for an ice cream and I said Vanilia. And she said, what? And I kind of even pointed out to the vanilla ice cream and I said Vanilia. And she, oh, Vainilla. And I thought, my God, you know, can't you understand me? I mean, between the distance between like Vanilia and Vainilla,

Right.

or Vainisha as they would say in in Argentina is not very big. I mean, how come she didn't understand me? Then I thought, well, okay, so maybe people who are not used to, uh, people who have another mother tongue, you know, speaking their language, it would sound strange.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. And it's just you, you're attacking the problem with a curious language learner mind, so you can see you can see connections. Because I think that's the biggest, uh, uh, power trade of a polyglot is that they they see connections. For instance, if you see a word that in a language and it reminds you of a word in another language, you see it immediately.

Exactly.

You see it immediately. So you're, you're connecting basically all your languages. And so when when people don't understand even a connection in their own language when it seems blatantly obvious.

Yeah.

It's kind of a funny situation but, uh.

Surprising, yeah, you think, well, how's that possible? And you you start, indeed, finding connections in so many ways. Like, for instance, in Indonesia, I was a tour leader for a long time and, of course, there's a lot of Dutch because it has been a Dutch colony. Of course, there's like Portuguese, uh, heritage. I mean, the Portuguese sailed over there as well. So, for instance, uh, igreja in Portuguese is gereja in Indonesian. You know, things like that. But then when I started learning Greek, all of a sudden, I realized that the word for head, kefali, in Indonesian is kepela. And I thought, well, that's strange.

Yeah.

You know, you start finding these.

Yeah.

They're like little treasures. And I'm like, oh, wow, that's so cool. I found a Greek word in Indonesian.

There you go. I mean, there are German words in Russian, as well, which is, I mean, perhaps not surprising, but it's just really, really, uh, rude.

Oh, no, you don't. That's funny.

That's so, it's so funny. But, uh, but anyway, um, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the, the aspect of moving to the country because it seems like you've done that quite a lot. And, do you think, do you think that's a, a hugely winning strategy for most people, or do you think it takes a certain kind of person to sort of take it in a lot? Because you hear about a lot of people who, for instance, you know, Benny's famous story was like, I spent a year in Spain. I expected to learn Spanish. I didn't learn anything. Um, you know, how, how is that relationship?

Well, I'm not completely sure. I mean, I think it's different for everybody. But I've never actually lived in the countries. I mean, I, I was there like, when I went to Italy, um, to work in a hotel. Yes, I spent some time there. But that was like two months. So I don't really think I moved there. In Indonesia, I was a tour leader, but I went there like three weeks, moving around constantly with Dutch people. So it wasn't that I was speaking Indonesian all day long. And then I went back to Holland again for a week or two weeks and then back to Indonesia. So,

So, is that a better strategy? I mean, if you're just going for those, I guess you can call it like intensive periods in the country, because you, you kind of know, okay, I only got two months. So I better not, you know, slack off too much. But if you live there and you say, okay, I'm going to stay here until I learn it, then that just, I guess the challenge grows to the time that you have. So, maybe is that a factor?

Yeah, probably. The thing is, I've never, that's why I I keep being a bit surprised, you know, like, oh, I am actually a polyglot because, well, the talk of, the talk Richard, uh, did in Berlin now, he said you have these accidental multilingual people.

Yeah.

And then I thought, oh, maybe that's a better description of me, you know. I, I don't know. I, I seem to keep learning all these languages by accident. Because whenever I really say, okay, now I'm going to learn a language, then I'm not as, well, I don't progress as quickly and I'm not as good at it. I mean, I bought a book after having been in Budapest, I bought, uh, a book to learn Hungarian. But then once I was back in Holland, I thought, why am I actually wanting to learn Hungarian?

Mm-hmm.

So, basically, for me, it's not like, aha, I want another language on my card the next time I go to the conference. For me, it's like, I'm going to learn a language to be able to speak to people who I will be visiting, you know, more than once.

Right.

And then by the time I know the language, probably I'll never visit them again for whatever reason.

But then it's there, you know, you can reactivate it if you-

Yes, well, that's it. And then once I know it, I know it. But the thing is, like, what what Benny says, yeah, that you have to go there, no, I don't believe that.

Well, I don't think he said that. I don't think he said that. His story was just that he was in in in Spain for a year and didn't learn any Spanish.

Oh, okay, well.

So that was just a horror story of immersion failing.

I think yeah, like everything, it's so relative, it depends on the person. But I I don't think for me it would be possible to go and live in a country and not learn the language. Because I'm, I'm communicative and I communicate with with everybody. I mean, the street sweepers, the the garbage men, the the selling, you know, sales personnel in the shops. Yeah, so then you have to communicate.

Yeah. And that's also why I I guess because you're, I mean, would it be, would it be safe to say that you're an extroverted person in that case?

Yes.

Very safe.

Very safe.

Good, good.

Good, good.

Because then I, I I could see that some introverts might have trouble just sort of speaking in a completely foreign language, in a completely foreign environment. So perhaps it's it's the challenge of, uh, I don't know, getting out of your comfort zone and I don't know, it's also hard, you know, if you're really shy and introverted and it's kind of harsh to just say, well, go out and speak to someone, you'll you'll get there, you know.

Yeah, well, that's the thing. Uh, a lot of people kind of seem to have the, well, they they portray themselves as being the ones who have all the knowledge. I don't think that that is me and I would never go out and say to anybody like, oh, you should do this or you should do that.

Right.

I I tell people, find your own way. And for some people, it may very well be the best way ever to sit at home and study grammar and, you know, read books or whatever and learn. Although I do think that the best way to learn the language is to to anyway express yourself in it. So whether you speak to other people or just recite poems, I saw Judith reciting, or I saw and I heard her reciting a Chinese poem. So reading out loud.

Right.

I think Professor Aggelis, uh, talked about that in Novi Sad. Reading out loud or writing letters. That's actually how I learned Croatian. Um, more than even being in Croatia on holiday. After I was at home, you know, I started writing letters and my first letters must have been, you know, like a six-year-old who's just, who's just learned how to write. But, yeah, the people I wrote to kept writing back. And then I thought, oh, oh, so that's actually the way you should say it. Oh, okay. You know, and yeah, that's how I learned.

Fantastic. And, um, also I've I've noticed that you took part in, uh, most of the gatherings and, uh, conferences that's been held, uh, so far. What what made you go to, um, the one in Budapest that was, was kind of the foundation for all these?

Yeah, well, I don't actually know how because I don't think I was consciously searching for polyglots because as I said, I didn't even know I was one. But I came across some of these videos by Alex and by, uh, Richard. And then I and Luca also, and then I found out that there were through Facebook, I think, that they were doing this polyglot thing in, uh, in Budapest. And then since I saw that the program would be mainly on the subject we're talking about now, I volunteered and I said, well, hey, how would you like me to speak of the use of language, well, any language whatsoever because that's also what interests me, in how do people put things, you know, in their own language? Uh, how do they phrase things because every language is a different view onto the world. And, well, being an NLP trainer, that's, that's also something that really interests me. Like, for instance, if I tell people, oh, language learning is really difficult. Well, do you think that sounds motivational?

No.

No. So, what NLP does is it says, and that's something you do yourself, uh, when you said, well, sometimes you just use the opposite, you know, for female is not a man. Well, if you want to say difficult, you can say not easy because the brain will hear the word easy.

Right.

And that's something that I wanted to bring across that no matter what language you speak, and I'm, of course, I don't speak all the languages in the world, so I can't be sure about for instance, Chinese or any language I don't speak, how they phrase things, yet I think it's important to to realize, you know, that you can also help your language learning by influencing yourself, um, in the way you phrase things.

Right. Like if you're struggling at home and you can't seem to get the motivation to, uh, pick up the the the Assimil or whatever, are there any, are there any tips and tricks, uh, we can do to ourselves to change our, sort of, uh, programming, as it's as it's called?

Yes. What what they use a lot in, um, in hypnosis, actually, uh, is also like future pace that, okay, maybe at this point, it's not working out exactly the way I wanted to, and I'm sure that within a week, I will have made progress.

Uh-huh.

So, that is a way of programming yourself. That's why it's called neurolinguistic programming. Program programming yourself with the language you use, whatever language that may be, to be successful. So, then you will say, so, okay, maybe this step of me wanting to learn 20 words a day is, um, a little much. I'm sure I can do at least five. And then when you do the five, then you're like, okay, this was a success. So, if I can do five, I can at least do 10 tomorrow. You know, and that, that way you build it up.

Right.

And so, not like, oh my God, I'm so stupid, I can't remember these 20 words. That doesn't help. So you have to kind of find the language you can use talking to yourself that is helpful.

Right. Yeah, it's it's it's fascinating. But the, the one thing I, I, you know, I I understand the idea of positive thinking because it's and also the positive phrasing of things. Um, because it it really is true that if you, if you think that there's something you can't do, then you can't do it because that's, that's the limitation of our minds. If you, if we convince ourselves we can't do something, then the chances of us doing it is like zero or maybe 0.1. But anyway. The, the only thing I'm thinking is like when you say, well, you should tell yourself this or you should then try and say that, does that mean we have to sit in a sort of a chant or before we go studying or-

No, no, no, no. No, no, no.

Or is it do you have it on a note?

No, no. Should should is also, no, should is also a big word. As I said, uh, I don't know, I I don't like telling people what they should do.

Well, you're a trainer, you have to at least, uh, assert some, uh, right?

Pressure.

Yeah. You must.

Yeah, you must. Well, those are, those are what I call the red words. The green words are like, you, you are allowed to, you may, you can, you know. They sound more positive. But no, it's not like a chant. It is changing your beliefs. And you can only do that by self-speech. I mean, people can tell you as well. So, the self-speech is the, is your thinking and you don't need to chant it to yourself. What you can do is say, okay, how realistic are my goals? Let's start with small steps, you know, like five words instead of 20. And take it from there.

Right. I mean, keep it, keep it achievable.

Yes, exactly.

Hmm. It's really interesting. It's, uh.

Yeah.

You know, it, I love when, uh, when the podcast, uh, when the talk here makes me like, hmm, that's interesting. Because, uh, I totally believe in the, in the power of, uh, like words. I think if you tell yourself you're no good, then you will just seek to fulfill that sort of prophecy, you know.

Yeah, well, exactly. And there was a talk at the, uh, in Berlin as well about, um, I think it was Ulysses who who told about, you know, in certain languages there are only a limited amount of words for things. For instance, and then I said, yes, well, like in Spanish, you don't have feet. I mean, of course you have feet.

Yeah.

And in Greek as well. But you, you say, uh, or you have feet, no, sorry, you do have feet, but you don't have toes.

Right.

So, for for me, it sounds like the finger of the foot. And that's, that's what is interesting that language does influence the way we think.

For sure.

So, knowing that, it also influence the way we feel. Because how we feel is a direct, uh, now I can't think of the word speaking of all these words is the the consequence of the way we think. Because yeah, like if I walk in the street and I see you somewhere and I say, hey, Chris, and you don't answer. Well, either I think, oh, gosh, he doesn't want to see me. I think he doesn't like me anymore. What's wrong with him, you know? What's wrong with me? Whoa, and then I start feeling depressed. Yeah. Or if I wave and you don't respond, I think, ah, he's probably, uh, with his thoughts, you know, somewhere else, he didn't hear me. And then I won't feel bad. I'll feel perfectly normal. So, the way we think has an influence on the way we feel. And therefore, it influences our learning.

Yeah, it's it's incredible. And I actually I recommend people watch the, uh, the full presentation you did because there are a lot of like aha moments or like really made people think. And it was a very, uh, well-received presentation. Um, I know, uh, we're running a little bit, uh, short on time here, but apart from, you know, being positive, try not to use the negative words. Are there any other tips as a as an NLP trainer you could pass on to people to improve their language learning and and maybe, uh, their lives in general.

Yeah, and the time we're still okay. And the presentation you were talking about, I think the, the one that was more NLP was the one in Budapest.

Right. Exactly.

Uh, because the one in Novi Sad was a bit more about, well, metaphors and

Storytelling.

Storytelling. Um, well, one of, one of other tip is that people who are very visual, for instance, the visual memory is in the, the left top of our, uh, how should I say that? When you put your eyes, you turn your eyes up to the left, uh, corner and upwards. So, left in each person.

Yeah.

You understand what I mean? That's where the visual memory is. So, if you look at, if you watch people's interviews on television, for instance, and they will recall something they have seen, you will always see their eyes moving to the top left.

Oh.

Uh, this is not like, uh, I have a lie detector or so. Um, but that's where their visual memory is. So, if they want to up, you know, call up an image, you will usually see their eyes going up left. For the ones watching, of course, that is to the right. I hope I'm making myself clear here. Anyway, so, if you really have problems internalizing, uh, a certain word or the spelling of a word, then you can hang it up in your room or your study somewhere where you have to look up to the left.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's what I tell people with dyslexia as well. That really helps.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a funny thing, isn't it? Uh, that's just- I mean, that's we could talk for about about that for a whole episode as well, I think. But I'm always I was always fascinated about that because, I mean, when you don't have it, you just don't understand it. You know.

No, no.

You can you can attempt to sort of, I guess, um, what's the word I'm thinking of? You know, empathize. It's so hard to do the TH if you're Danish. But you know what I mean?

Empathize. Empathize.

Empathize, yeah.

The thing is, we had a training as teachers, there was this man, um, I think he's about 60, and he he gave a training because he discovered that he had dyslexia only when he was like 45 or 50 years old.

Wow.

Yeah. So he always thought he was stupid. I don't know how he could have thought that because he did pass, you know, he has a university degree. But he said, yeah, I was always so slow in reading. Well, of course, now we know why. So he had all kinds of texts in in little scribbles and letters and he he was then saying, well, this is what it looks like to me. And I was like, wow. That's, uh, pretty unintelligible.

Right.

Right.

And they're changing the they're they're changing that now, actually. I just read an article recently about, uh, there was some I call them scientists, whatever. They they designed a computer font that highlights features of each letter, so they don't look so similar. Which is really cool. I mean, when you think about it, that's like inventing the glasses or the wheel or something. You know, it's really, uh, incredible. And, uh, but it just makes a lot of sense that if you could, you know, letters are quite similar when you think about it. I mean, I don't want to go into like Russian cursive because that's just the same all the time. But, you know, when you have the English alphabet, a lot of the letters have the same kind of shape. And,

Yeah, that's true.

It's just, um, so they, what they did was they they took the letters where dyslexics get confused because, as you know, when you're reading, you're not really reading every letter. You just kind of, the brain just sees something and then it fills in the blank. And only if you don't know the word, do you get stumped by it. But for dyslexic people, if they get stumped every other word, that's really when the the trouble starts. And Yes. They they need to distinguish more between those similar letters. So, that that's just a a cool development. I think that they sort of, they made some of the letters a little bit angled and they added a little bit of a an extra tail to one of the letters. And it's I just thought it was really cool. But again, it's taking a long time. Yeah. I can imagine. Exactly. So, um, I think, um, I'll, I'll let you go for now because, uh, you said you had an appointment, but I want to thank you so much for taking the time and, uh, also enduring all the technical problems that, that-

Yeah, well, it was you that was doing the enduring. I was just getting a bit frustrated.

We had leading up to this. Yeah, no problem.

Like, I want to be in time, so, that's okay.

I wanted to be in time, so, that's okay.

Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, sorry, I just had to cough because, um, I'm still a little sick. But, um, not as sick as last week, but feeling, uh, feeling good. But when you make me laugh, I have to cough afterwards. So, um, but yeah, it was a great pleasure and, and it was a great pleasure to meet you in in person in Berlin, as well. And, uh, I'm sure we'll meet, uh, somewhere in Europe, uh, not too, uh, not too far away from here.

No, well, you're always welcome in Holland. Thank you for listening to the actual fluency podcast. If you would like to get more out of the podcast, check out the VIP Club by going to actualfluency.com/vip.