Anthony Lauder: Being an Expat

Season 2, episode 2 with Anthony Lauder, expat tips and tricks. This is the actual fluency podcast, helping you become a better language learner by providing motivating weekly inspiration, as well as top tips and tricks from expert guests. And now, your host, Kris Broholm.

I don't know.

You were in there in in previous episodes, and we talked extensively about your languages and sort of how you approach language learning as a not a polyglot, but a poly-not and what that

Exactly.

entailed, and we talked about your presentation in Budapest. And if people are interested in sort of general language learning, I recommend going back to that episode first and then coming back to this one, which is more of a the topic is expats today, which is a word that I want to talk to you about in a minute.

Oh, thank you.

So tell us your expat story. You know, how how did it begin?

Okay. It all began because I was working in London for a software company that put me on an exciting project in their mind, but it turned out it was working on nuclear missiles. And I didn't like the idea of killing people. The boss said, oh, you've gone through this strict process of vetting with the Ministry of Defense, and now I was working at the Atomic Weapons Research Establishment, and I didn't like it. They said, you don't have a choice. You've got to work on this project. And I said, I do have a choice. I'm leaving. So I resigned and I was without a job. So on my first day of unemployment, I thought I'd better find a job. Went to a jobs fair, and within 5 minutes, I stumbled upon a man who said, "Ooh, you seem to be quite well-qualified and interested in this computer geeky stuff. I've got a job opening for you." And it was in New York, and I was living in London at the time, and I thought, "New York. That sounds exciting." So I said, yes please, and within a month, I was living in New York.

Wow. And jumping straight in there, do you think that that feeling from Prague is because you've uh sort of grown to the point where you want to settle down, or do you think it's because it just fits your personality perfectly?

There are two aspects to that. The first one is, Prague is just an absolutely fantastic city, so it's hard not to like it. But the second is that just on the first day here, I I felt I'd arrived home. It's it was a very strange feeling that everywhere else I always thought, "Hm, this is a nice place to visit," but Prague just felt home straight away. Partly because it's a fantastic place, I'm sure, but there was just something about it that made me feel I was home. Yeah.

Wow, fantastic. And what sort of challenges did you did you face when you when you first started living in in a foreign country, let's say an unknown country?

Sure.

Uh let's say in New York, for instance, to start out with?

The biggest challenge, I think this applied to me but I see it apply to other people, is over-excitement at the beginning. You get you have all this magnificent fantasy in your head about how great life is going to be. So I thought, "Wow, New York, I'm going to be living a life like in the movies!"

Uh-huh.

Uh the same thing for people that come to Prague. I see a lot of people come here, they get very excited with this imagined idea that they're going to be the next Franz Kafka. I'm going to be a great writer and I'm going to have this bohemian lifestyle and it'll be fantastic.

Right.

It's not going to make all your problems go away. It's actually going to make your problems increase. Yeah.

Right. So, what sort of problems would would that be?

Well, some very typical problems, for example, in Prague, are the language barrier because it just takes a long time to learn Czech unless you're some kind of super genius, which I certainly am not. And um so the first thing is the language barrier. The second problem is the the whole bureaucracy system is very different here, and you can find it very frustrating. You say um you have to make appointments for just about everything and wait a long time for everything and deal with annoying bureaucrats for just about everything. Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. I've met quite a few people who say they left because they were homesick. And I say, well, what do you mean by that? And they said, oh, you know, I just miss what I had when I was a kid. You know, they want to go home to their favorite ice cream and so on, not necessarily friends and family, but to the things they're comfortable with.

Right. And it's probably connected to the over-excitement at the beginning because you're sort of setting unrealistic expectations. And when the new place you live in can't really match your dream world, then you suddenly thinking, well, I was doing fine at home, right?

Well, I think it's that people people's natural tendency is to think about what they're going to gain. But they forget about what they're going to lose.

Mm-hm.

So, oh, I hear Czech beer is the best in the world, and Czech women are the most beautiful women in the world, and this kind of thing. And I know all the architecture in Prague is beautiful. But they forget, they won't have the things that they had back at home, and many of them you take for granted, like newspaper delivery, for example. In the UK, you can get milk delivered in the morning and newspapers delivered in the morning, and so a lot of people go and collect their morning milk, make a cup of tea, put read the newspaper. Those things you don't get here. You have to go out to the shop, and you're not going to do that at 6:00 in the morning. But so your daily routine can be interrupted by some very simple things that people start to find a bit unsettling unless they're prepared for it.

Right. And and and I I guess it's not the things themselves. It's more like when you say they're craving their favorite ice cream.

Right.

It's probably just some kind of a like you say, emotional response to

To the to the to the yeah, missing stuff that they took for granted.

Right.

Yeah. Even re- I mean, I have a friend who used to live in Germany, and she always would use a a certain German toothpaste. And when she came to Prague, you couldn't buy that toothpaste here. So she makes trips to Germany every few months to stock up on this toothpaste, just because that flavor of the toothpaste is something that's comforting for her in the mornings. Yeah, really so strange.

That's strange.

Yeah, yeah, well that's yeah, we are creatures of habit.

Yeah, exactly.

Absorb these basic comforts. And so I've seen that people who leave people who crash from the expat lifestyle and go home, it tends not to be because they've had major problems. It tends that they've been ground down by the missing tiny things. Yeah.

Right. And is there any way we can sort of mitigate that before we leave if we if potential expats are sitting out there thinking, I'd like to move to, well, Czech Republic or Germany or whatever. Uh is there anything we can do in our minds to soften this grinding effect?

You know, there are things that even I still miss from the UK, and every time I used to go back to the UK, I would stock up on English bacon, English sausages, and this kind of thing. So I could make full English breakfast for myself. Thankfully, Marks and Spencer is here now, so I can, Marks and you know, Marks and Spencer, the English shop. So so I can stock up on them 5 minutes' walk from my house.

That's nice.

Yeah. But um I think the main thing is sort of like a Buddhist kind of thing is to recognize that my unhappiness is about something very trivial. So yes, I you can instead of saying, oh, I don't feel good here, I'm not I'm feeling homesick, just to understand what it actually is that's making you feel homesick is something that helped me a lot. Thinking, yeah, well, I know English beer is a different flavor and I quite miss that. But um that's not a reason to move back home, just the flavor of some beer.

Right.

So, instead of having just this emotional feeling, this oh, something doesn't feel right, I have learned to sort of dig into that and understand what what where those feelings come from, and it usually is over something very trivial. Like I I remember there's there's a children's breakfast for babies actually, called Farley's Rusks in the UK, and it's a very nice tasty breakfast for babies. And I was really missing the flavor of this even though I hadn't had it since I was about 3. And I started to really pine for this, and I thought to myself, this is crazy. This is crazy. Living in Prague and thinking, oh, I've got to go to the UK to get some Farley's Rusks. And it was a real strange urge I had. And but just reflecting on it, you know, okay, that's just this weird feeling. It's not a reason to move back to England.

Right.

Yeah. But on the other side, I don't want to trivialize the other reality, which is that um why many other expats leave is, firstly, at least in Prague, companies when they are getting rid of employees are let from what I've heard are much more likely to get rid of a foreigner than a local person, because um Czech law in particular, and in other countries, when I was living in Luxembourg, for example, the Luxembourguish law really makes it very difficult to get rid of an employee once you've had once they've been there for a certain amount of a certain amount of time. So companies I'm told will get rid of foreigners because those foreigners are less likely to sue them.

Wow.

They won't, you know, if if you have a visa, for example, which is dependent upon your job, and you lose your job, you have to go back to your home country. So you're not going to be fighting through the legal system that the employer didn't give me 6 months' notice or something. So that's so losing your job if you're a foreigner is probably more likely than if you're a local, and that's always incredibly stressful, of course.

Right.

And the jobs open to you as a foreigner are often much more limited than those available to locals, unless you have some very specific skill that's in high demand. So here are some kinds of things, if if you've got a job in IT or in finance, you're going to get a well-paid job probably anywhere. If you can speak English fluently, you can always get a job as an English teacher, but it doesn't necessarily pay very well.

Right.

Outside of those, you're probably going to be competing with locals, and you've got the incredible disadvantage that you don't speak the local language as well as the locals do. So I've met many but you also want to live an expat lifestyle, which is more expensive than a local lifestyle. You want to live in a nice part of town, be able to go to the nice restaurants, go out with your friends to the expat pubs and so on. And that's a more expensive lifestyle than the locals would necessarily have. So I see people really struggling financially when they come here as well, unless they have very specific high-demand skills. So it's not just culture shock, it can be a financial shock as well to many people.

Right. And and obviously, the uh the problem is that you when you, or at least I I I think that's what a lot of people think when they move to something like the Czech Republic is that the cost of living is quite low, so their spending goes up unreasonably so. Uh you know, suddenly you're eating out every meal and uh

Exactly. Exactly. I see this. In fact, this is another thing I see that a lot of expats tend to be become, if they're not careful, socially isolated. If you're not here with your family, for example, you can't go home to your wife and kids at night and have your close relatives nearby, or the or the people you've grown up with from school. When you come here, you're on your own. And to make friends is a slow process, and um you're not going to have those lifelong friends that a lot of people had. In many ways, your friendships may be more superficial. So you become can easily become socially isolated.

Right.

And I see a lot of expats over-compensate in a way for this by going out every night, eating in restaurants every night, getting drunk every night, and that's fun, but it is a very expensive lifestyle. So as you said, life in Prague is relatively cheap if you're a local, but not if you're an expat necessarily, because you will be out. You usually you would not want to live in the suburbs. Expats tend to want to live quite close to the center of the city. You don't want to live where it's an hour away from the center because why would you want, well, you'd want to enjoy the city. So apartments are going to be more expensive, the restaurants are going to be more expensive because it's close to the center, and so on. And you and you your friends may be expats who are in high-paid jobs possibly. So they won't want to eat in the local burger bar, every night.

Right.

and pinning all his hopes on this one evening a week when he was going out with these other expats, and he became extremely depressed, extremely depressed, and went back to London just within a few months. So, uh, yeah, this is part of setting your expectations again.

Right.

If you want to live in the fancy part of town and have this wonderful lifestyle, it is not going to be cheap, even though Prague is theoretically a cheap city. In fact, that brings up another issue that's very important. Um Prague and a lot of supposedly cheap countries don't tend to have very many things that are middle-priced. They tend to be two price categories. The really cheap stuff, and anything that isn't really cheap is a luxury item, which is very expensive.

Right. And do you think it's also because of a a failure to change your, you know, when you go on holiday, you have this kind of euphoria leading to spending more money, which is why you see shops in airports, which is why you see shops at beach fronts and all this. Do you think people when they leave as an expat, they kind of in their mind equate it to some kind of maybe not a holiday, but definitely some kind of elevated style of living, not just everyday life. You know, you know what I mean?

Well, there's a very interesting debate that happens quite frequently. I've seen this repeatedly for many years actually, which is what's the difference between an expat and an immigrant? And an immigrant is usually a term that expats use to describe other foreigners.

Right.

So I think calling yourself an expat rather than an immigrant, firstly, is trying to elevate your own status. I am separate from the immigrants are the low-educated people coming and getting the low-paid jobs, and they live in they live in the ghetto effectively. I'm an expat, and that means that I'm above the norm. So viewing yourself as an expat, I think, means you're seeing yourself as separate. If you're an immigrant, you're going to merge into the society, possibly in the bottom level of society. If you're an expat, you think, hm, well, I am I am this foreigner who's a bit exciting, and the locals are happy should be happy to have me here.

Right. Actually, the I'm glad you brought it up because that was uh that was a thing I just saw in the one of the Facebook groups uh for language learners. Somebody brought up, uh or maybe it was even one of the expat groups ironically. Uh but somebody brought up, uh why is it expat if you're, you know, a white person from a western country? And if you're from anywhere else in the world, it's an immigrant.

Right.

And I thought that's that's spot on, isn't it?

Yeah, I I've seen the same debate many times.

There's really no excuse or no it it's just a a snobbery kind of like you say, elevating yourself. But I guess just having awareness that this exists will mean that hopefully when we go or the listeners go, they'll be more humble and more, you know, more embracing of of of everything that the country has to offer from top to bottom.

Well, at the same time, it's very good to fit in, but certain things will not be pleasant to you. So for example,

Go for it.

Yeah. For example, um Czechs love eating pigs, pig slaughtering, and things like this. There's a there's a thing called Zabijačka, which is the pig slaughtering. It happens usually once a year, and a lot of Czech people think it's the great, can you hear me?

Yeah, you you you just uh fell out for a brief second, but you are back.

Okay. Okay, so there's there's this thing called Zabijačka, which is where pigs are slaughtered, and many families in will have a country home with a pig in it. And they get got a pig, and somebody will come and slaughter the pig, and it's a the process can take the whole day.

Right.

you'll never enjoy it unless you're unless you're incredibly brave. And there are many things like it, like some of the Czech fashions that are pretty weird. Men wearing a business suit with white socks and brown sandals. It looks very strange, but socks and sandals seems to be a local fashion that local people are perfectly happy with, but I could never do it.

Right.

Exactly, 10 years later. Yeah. Or and another thing where you're always going to be an outsider, even if you speak the language well. By the way, that's one of the most important things certainly is to learn the language to a level where you can you don't have to be able to discuss great philosophy, but to be able to watch movies or go to parties and chat with people. That makes such an incredible difference because I see people that haven't made that step, and it is difficult, it does take a long time. But people that haven't made that step end up very much outside of Czech friendships. They may have a few Czech friends but they're English speaking, just speaking in English with those people.

Ah, right.

So people will be laughing about old movies that you've never seen, or cartoons from their childhood, or pop stars that you've never heard of, books you've never read. Um I can remember one party where within a few minutes, somebody brought a a birthday gift, and it was a box of candy that was remade, a nostalgic type of chewing gum it actually was. Pedro Chewing Gum, which existed in communist times. And so this person brought this bag of chewing gum as a gift, and uh the person whose birthday it was was overjoyed, and the rest of the evening was talking about candy from their childhood.

Right.

And they're all screaming and laughing, "Oh, do you remember this one? Do you remember that one?" And I was excluded from that conversation, not because of a any vocabulary, but because of lack of being a child here.

Right.

And you can't catch up on that.

Right. So what what do you do then? I mean, I I can see that problem immediately.

Yeah. Sit there being a very uncomfortable. Yeah. Um so you're always an outsider even if you speak the language, and there's nothing like going to a party or a a dinner party or a birthday party or something like that. Nothing nothing reminds you as quickly that you're an outsider as that kind of environment.

Right. So if you're the only if you're the only non-Czech person at a party, it might get lonely very quickly.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And um I so this is one reason I understand why an expat community can be quite comforting, because if you find people from your own background, you can talk with them about your favorite childhood candy and your favorite cartoons. And if it and I I meet maybe once or twice a month with other immigrants, other expats, just for this reason. So we go to a local pub and we were ordering Scottish beer recently and talking about Scotland, and English ales and all this kind of thing.

Sounds like a top tip actually for uh um aspiring expats is to, you know, to kind of soften the blow of culture shock and to try and because I I can relate a little bit to this when I moved to England. Yes. I had this kind of feeling of I was relocating, I was moving into a new country, so I should embrace everything from the new country. And of course, English wasn't a problem, uh the language. Yeah. And the culture I knew a lot about as well.

Right.

uh so so for me, it sounds like um if you can meet up with some people who share your background or at least closer than the country you live in, um then that could be a a tremendous help and and and perhaps perhaps indeed help you get better relationship with the non-expats as well.

Right. Right. Right.

Because that's the I guess also that's a bit of a fear that's been put into people by some of the language learning uh sort of uh big bloggers out there and and people who've done traveling a lot. They they constantly talk about, oh, don't get stuck in the expat bubble and if you're only speak English all the time, you can't learn the language. I I guess some people, myself included, interpreted that as as the expat bubble as something bad.

That's right. Yes.

Where

Yes.

could really help you out.

Absolutely. I I in fact, uh one thing I on the expat versus the immigrant debate, what what I um find very weird is, if you're an expat, people say, oh, don't mix with people from the other don't mix with the other expats, get integrated into the Czech society, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yet immigrants, people seem to think it's perfectly okay for a Chinese person to live in Chinatown,

For example.

for example. Yeah. Or in New York, there was a little when I was living in I used to live in New York, and there were little communities like Little Italy, like there was little Ukraine, all these areas where people from those that nationality would live in that area. But they were immigrants living there for the whole of their lives, and nobody said, oh, that stupid Chinese person's living in Chinatown. He should move out and integrate better.

Right.

So I don't know why we say it about expats. Why do why do expats have to necessarily integrate completely into society? I don't think you need to. So I think it's very good to mix with the local people and get into the local culture, and it certainly, certainly, learning the language enriches your life immensely because all of that culture is now available to you rather than the very narrow amount of stuff that might be in say English.

Right.

But certainly, the what it's always confused me why it's okay to be Chinese and live in Chinatown, or Italian Italian and live in Little Italy, but it's not okay to be an Englishman in Prague going out with English people.

Right.

It really is quite, it's it's sort of another kind, maybe it's a language learning snobbery that, you know, maybe there is some snobbery in the language community of, oh, I just throw myself in at the deep end, and I only speak with the locals, you know. And that might be okay for some people being heroic like that, throwing yourself in the deep end, but I think many other people actually benefit from spending at least some time with people from a similar background to their own.

Right, exactly. And one of the other things that I I was thinking about having this kind of thing is is that if you if it can help you to get a better, you know, understanding of the surroundings because you might get sort of views from, you know, observations from people who have the same cultural background as yourself, you might kind of be able to talk about the Czech culture in an analytical way where you can sort of, oh, that's why they did that, and that's why they, whereas if you're with a Czech person, they would never explain stuff like that to you because, well, that's that's their life. That's what they've been doing all their lives. So

Right. Yes.

they don't understand that it it might be weird for you to see a pig being slaughtered or whatever.

That's right.

Whereas an English person would say, I tried the weirdest thing today, guys.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly. In fact, this is one one thing that's I think really helpful for expats is that in many countries there are expat websites, and certainly huge numbers of Facebook groups for where expats in a particular country like in Prague, um give help to each other. And the questions that people ask on these things are not all, it's not always, where can I find my favorite candy?

Yeah, and understand why it's difficult some of the practices.

Right. And also, um talking about products, um people may have their this is a very common question. I I always um see people asking about some product they used back home and they want to know what the equivalent product is here.

Right.

See. So instead of saying, I have to have this particular washing powder that I had it back in the UK, you might say, I've got a washing I used to have a washing powder in the UK that stopped my whites from turning yellow or something like this. And people go, ah, the closest Czech brand is this one, such and such a thing. So it's these expat groups aren't only about hiding from the locals, they also help you transition into society here. And yeah.

And you leverage that people have lived here for a long time as an expat and can sort of bring knowledge to the table.

Right. So they understand both sides. They understand the journey you're going on because they've been on that journey before and the problems you're facing. Exactly.

And that's exactly why we're talking to you today.

Oh, incidentally. Yeah.

But I had um uh we were talking about how it's totally okay to and probably a great idea to socialize with expats. But what about the risk of, you know, coming to a new country and you might not be speaking the language quite well, isn't is there a risk of living in that expat bubble, which we briefly touched on before, and if so, what can we what can we give the listeners of practical tips and and myself as well?

Yeah. So there there were two things I'd say. The first one is, it depends how long you plan on being in the country. So there are a lot of American students that come here say for 1 year, a year overseas, you know, a year abroad. And for them, I would say, just go and live in that expat bubble because in a year unless you're going to devote all your spare time to it, you're not going to learn Czech in a year unless you're incredibly gifted and have a lot of free time.

Right.

And the whole process of assimilating can be quite challenging. So just go ahead, if you're just going to be there a year, there's nothing wrong with living in that expat bubble and basically being a long-term tourist for a year. There's nothing wrong with it.

Right.

But if you're planning on settling in the place for more than a year, then two things help. The first is finding expats that speak your language sorry, finding locals that speak your language. So I have many friends here who have Czech friends, yet they don't speak Czech very well, because those Czech friends speak English, for example.

Mm-hm.

And those Czech friends will introduce you to their Czech friends who can speak English. So then you can they can take, they will introduce you to all the events and places that you want to go. They will take you to the restaurants that the locals go to and to the sports events that the locals go to. And the only thing you're missing there is the language. And you can you I when I first came to Prague, I couldn't speak Czech at all. And I would go to concerts, even to plays where I couldn't understand anything being said, but enjoyed the social experience with my Czech friends.

Sure.

So you you can find, if you speak English, which presume most expats will, there's nothing wrong with having local friends that speak English, too. You'll slowly learn the language. And they sorry, they will be able to introduce you to experiences that you wouldn't have if you only had expat friends. So expat friends are unlikely to take you to an ice hockey game.

Right.

They're unlikely to take you to some pub where there's some little local band playing because they probably don't know about it. So I think having Czech friends or local friends who speak your own language is a really good way to start getting integrated into the society.

Um when you go to deal with the bureaucrats here, take a Czech friend with you. They'll know how to deal with the bureaucrats. They'll know you have to you have to buy some flowers for this administrator because that will speed the process up, or buy a box of chocolates for that woman there, and she'll stamp your form quicker than anybody else's and they'll know all these things. So you can become integrated into the society by having local friends even if you don't speak the language.

Right.

And they do okay. And the what they do is either live in the expat bubble and think, yeah, well, this is my life, and they're perfectly happy with it. Or they get a lover, a husband, a wife, a boyfriend, a girlfriend, who is local, and let that person do all the talking.

Right.

So, this I see a lot. I see a lot of expat men, many who've lived here for 10 or 20 years, who don't speak very much Czech at all. But they get by perfectly because their husband or wife or whatever speaks is is a Czech. And so they don't bother learning themselves anything beyond the basic pleasantries, and they and they can do perfectly fine. They can they can visit the in-laws, they can go to parties, and so on. And they just sit there quietly.

So interesting. I I feel like I I don't know if it it's just because, you know, we're in a we're in a society where learning the language to a high functioning level is is kind of an it's almost obvious that that's what you should be doing. And yet, when you see people outside in every single country, I'm sure, where people come to, they'll get they don't bother at all. Maybe they'll not even get to that first base where they can just, you know, maybe they're just grunting and using English.

Yeah. But that's understandable to me. I understand it completely because if if it's their first foreign language, imagine you can only speak English and you go to live in China or something, and or you go to live in Prague or whatever. It's daunting, and your first experiences will be scary.

Yeah.

So, I can really understand why people don't do it. It's like anything else that's painful. Go keeping fit and going to the gym, we all know we should do it.

Yeah.

Well, how many of us actually do? You know, there are some fanatics who do sports all day and think it's their the greatest thing. And I think that the language learning community is the same. Just like we see people who do sports all day and think, yeah, I should probably do that, but I don't.

Yeah.

People outside the language learning community may see us and think, yeah, I know I should learn the language, I know, I know, but those guys really enjoy it and I don't.

Right. And what can we do, you know, this is sort of a philosophical question, what can we do as a as ambassadors of language learning, if we if we were to be so bold, to sort of promote because you don't have to go from nothing to C2 in Czech to enjoy the language. Like the first, I mean, I'm just equating it to learning Russian, and it's taking me over a year to be able to just have basic conversations. So I know the the challenges. But I enjoyed it along the way as well, just having sort of fragmented conversation as well.

I don't think I don't I don't know if we should. I don't you know, it reminds this whole idea that we should get other people to learn languages because it's fun. That reminds me a little bit of when you see the Jehovah's Witnesses standing on the street corners, trying to convert people to their religion, because they know how great it is and if only other people would see the light, they would want to become Jehovah's Witnesses too.

Right.

And I I don't know if they would. Because somebody asked me actually when they moved to Prague, um about learning would about learning Czech. And this person was a um working in the computer industry, creating websites, but he only knew HTML, the language for making web pages. And he said, oh, I want to improve my life with learning Czech give me a better job. And I said to him, no, learning Java or C++. That's the language you should focus on.

Right.

It it'll triple your salary. And once your salary is tripled, you'll have a far better life than you're having now. You won't be living this very basic existence, hardly able to pay the bills. You'll be living a nice lifestyle on the money you earn from that, and that will be a much richer life.

Right.

And I really believe that. I believe that our passion for languages takes hundreds or thousands of hours per language. And other people have other priorities. This guy would have been better learning C++ or Java for a few hundred hours in terms of improving his life. Learning Czech would perhaps enrich his life culturally, but he was looking for what would actually make a practical difference to his life.

Right.

So if you want to be successful, you should focus on the other things. In my in my opinion, other things in your career that will mean that you get into executive meetings and earn a high salary. And as long as you can speak English, you don't need any other language.

Right.

No. Um the reason for learning a language then is for cultural enrichment, I think. So you can go so you can participate in the society.

Right. And that's after you've taken the decision to say, all right, I like this place. I'm going to possibly live here for a number of years.

Exactly. Exactly. So the the and I don't believe, just like I don't believe the Jehovah's Witnesses convert anybody. I don't believe they convert anybody to becoming a Jehovah's Witness, unless that person is already inclined to do it. So, there if a person is already inclined to learn a foreign language, then you can perhaps give them a helping hand. But I don't think you can convert somebody off the street who isn't that interested.

Right.

I I find this so so fascinating, uh like you say, because it it it's so it's so it's so strange to look out and Yeah. like you say, that we are probably Jehovah's Witnesses in a way.

Yeah.

But what I was kind of brainstorming about was, is there some form of of lesser Jehovah that we can uh you know, maybe Jehovah's Witnesses should do this. Make like um, you know, a transition religion.

Oh, yes.

And then try to bring that on people first.

No, no, no.

No.

Well, just like just like many people who are religious are part-time, half-hearted in their religion, many people survive being part-time, half-hearted interested in languages.

Right.

So there are most expats that come to Prague can handle the basics, and it's sufficient for daily life. They can get by. They know an A1 level of Czech. In fact, to get a visa, I think now, if you're in if you're an EU citizen, you you can just come here and live here without a visa. But if you're not from the EU, to get a visa now, you have to pass the A1 level language exam in Czech.

Right.

And there are courses you can take uh 30 hours, I think they uh 30 hours of lessons that will take you to the A1 level. And that A1 level is pretty much enough to get by, to buy a tram ticket, to go and get a bottle of milk.

Sure.

You know, that kind of thing. And so beyond that, the kind of more advanced level of the language isn't necessary for daily life.

Right.

Unless unless you really really want to participate in society. And then there are there are two there are only two reasons to learn a language. One is that you have to. It's a mandatory requirement. And the second is that you want to.

Mm-hm.

So then it comes down to want to. And want is far less motivating than have to.

Right.

Because you because with have to, laziness can't come into it. And other interests, you're just forced to learn the language. But want to relies on willpower, and willpower slips away. We all want to lose weight, we all want to get fit, we all want a healthy diet. But we give up. And the the same is true with language learning. This is so people come with the motivation of learning a language, they want to learn Czech, but they soon realize the A1 level is enough. And then their other interests take over because it we've all got limited time. And any hour you spend on language learning is an hour you've taken away from something else that you might find even more fulfilling.

Right.

So I don't believe we should ram this down people's throats. I don't believe we should laugh at people or make fun of people, or expect them to see the light. They've got other priorities. And A1 is perfectly sufficient for getting by. If if you say, I want people to get excited about language learning, that's fine. But the idea of they're missing out, what can we do to convince them that it's great? I don't think we can do anything.

Right. That's a very refreshing uh perspective and and certainly uh inspired some thoughts in my head.

Oh.

That's always nice. But uh but Anthony, it's been a an absolute pleasure to talk to you as as always, and uh I'm strongly strongly considering uh becoming an expat in Prague myself.

Oh, an immigrant. Good.

Oh, yeah, right. So, yeah. I'll be migrating. Uh no, I don't know yet, but it's very possible.

Well, if you do, it would be wonderful and I will certainly do my best to help you when you're here.

That would be fantastic. Do you have any uh sort of um, you know, quick fire tips here on the uh on the final minute that we could uh that we haven't quite covered in the uh in the interview.

Yes, so when we say language learning is always difficult for the first language, and it gets much easier with later languages. The same is true of being an expat or an immigrant. The first time you do it, it's scary. You don't know what to expect. But after you've been to to or three countries, it becomes just like going to another city in your own country. Something you don't even think about. It's not scary at all.

That's nice for for me because my first experience was quite scary, so

Right.

that gives me some hope for this one.

Yeah. It becomes less scary, you know. So you understand so now I I'm perfectly I would be perfectly happy to move to another country. Although I don't feel the urge anymore, but I would have no fear about it, having lived in quite a few countries. You just get used to it just like you get used to learning languages.

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Anthony, and uh I uh I hope to see you in person uh later in the year. I suspect you might be going to Berlin.

Ah, now that's a good question. I'm not sure yet. I still haven't decided. It might be too late to even decide on it.

No, no, no, it's never too late for somebody like you, Anthony.

Oh, that's very kind. We'll see. I haven't decided yet.

Okay. Well, let me let me just uh let me just pressure you to say that you should come.

Okay. All right. So thank you for the chat. You take care.

Thank you. See you later. Bye. Thank you for listening to the Actual Fluency podcast. If you would like to get more out of the podcast, check out the VIP Club by going to actualfluency.com/vip.