Tim Keeley: Around the World in 40 Languages

Alright everyone, we're back with another Actual Fluency podcast. And on the show today, I've got Mr. Tim Keely. Tim, how are you doing today?

Oh, great, thank you. Um, evening here in Japan.

Right. And it's uh, through the magic of the Internet, we're able to connect across such vast space. I, I always find that fascinating. But why don't you start out by giving the listeners who don't know you the full story of how you got into languages and and traveling the world?

Well, that could go on for a long time before you spoke another word.

Well, I'll, I'll, I'll interrupt you if if you get too carried away, but we have very interested to hear it.

Okay. So, kind of start from the beginning chronologically. Um, that would be, well, I was born in the US and grew up mainly in Florida. And, uh, the, I of course English is my mother tongue, but I also started studying Spanish from elementary school, since we lived in South Florida, where that's a requirement. And I got interested more, I guess around junior high school. And then even more in high school where I had, uh, more Cuban friends. So, by the time I was 18, I spoke Spanish pretty well. And I decided to, uh, go to, uh, Colombia to continue my studies.

Now, when I say continue my studies, I started university quite early. Um, just as I turned 16, I took some tests. So, by the time I was 18, I was pretty close to graduating, because I had a lot of credits. Um, it was a little bit too fast. I needed a change of life and oh, there are many reasons why I left. But basically, I left the US at 18.

So, in Colombia, um, I got even more interested in languages as I was using Spanish every day. And I studied French, uh, at Alliance Française in Bogotá, and German at the Goethe Institute, and Portuguese at, uh, Instituto Brasilero de Cultura. And so, after a year there, I took off to Brazil. So, that, uh, really, uh, gave me a chance to get deeply into Portuguese, uh, the language, the culture, uh, Brazilian way of being. Literature, I read a lot of literature. I read literature in all the countries I visited.

I basically did one big, uh, trip all the way down to down the Amazon or Brazil, Paraguay, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Peru, all the way back up. So, one tip to the other to to from the north Colombia to, uh, Tierra del F Fuego.

And then I had arranged to go study in Switzerland, um, international relations, and those those studies were in French. So, uh, my study of French in Bogotá paid off. And, uh, when I lived in Switzerland, I, um, got more interested in other languages. Um, I also, by the way, in South America, got interested in Slavic languages. I, I, uh, met a girl from Slovenia, and she taught me some Slovene, but I decided to learn Serbo-Croatian, they were put together at that time. Um, so, uh, after Switzerland, I went to the old Yugoslavia, rode a bike, uh, along the Adriatic Sea for three months.

Uh, so, uh, languages after that. Um, after graduating from university, I spent two years in Poland, uh, studying Slavic literature, mainly Polish, Russian, and reading also in in Croatian. Um, and then I studied Norwegian in, uh, Colombia, I'm sorry, in in Poland. I, I had some things to drink tonight, I had a bit to drink tonight, so sorry. I was just came back from dinner. Um, so, I'll try to keep it the best I can. Uh, so, in Poland, I also studied Norwegian and Japanese. Um, so, spent some time traveling in Norway, uh, worked in Germany some more in the summers, during the two years of graduate school there.

And the next stop was Southeast Asia. And, uh, mainly Thailand, uh, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore. So, I got interested in, uh, Thai, Indonesian, Malay, but I really didn't pick those languages up till later. And then I came, you know, arrived in Japan, and I went to, uh, school, uh, graduate school studying Chinese literature. So, I had basically a crash course in Chinese, so I could read the literature. So, I studied Chinese literature in Japanese.

Um, okay. Then I just kind of spread out in terms of languages, various things, uh, whatever. Like, uh, continued more Thai, Malay, Indonesian as I traveled, uh, Greek, I since I went there for a conference. Whenever I had the opportunity to go somewhere, I always, uh, tried to get as high as levels I could before going to that country, even if it was for a few weeks or a month. Um, so, that brought in, uh, Greek, um, and then my, uh, then my Thai improved greatly because, uh, I did my PhD focusing on Japanese countries in Southeast Asia, and I did a lot of interviews in Thailand. Also Malaysia. Uh, Singapore. Um, so, my, uh, then I started studying Korean.

So, basically, the Asian languages I concentrated on, number one, of course, Japanese is the language I actually have spoken most of my life now in terms of hours of speaking, because you see, I left the States at 18 and I'm 60 now. So, um, I've been back a few years in between. Uh, but, uh, basically, uh, most of my life hasn't been speaking English, and my accent can go all over the place in English. I lived in Australia for a little bit, got my PhD, so I can speak like an Aussie too.

Right.

Um, yeah, and then, you know, languages like, uh, later Nepal and Hindi, um, yeah, okay, that's the general outline, I'm probably still,

What a great story. It's, it's really fascinating. There are so many things I want to talk to you about, of course. But just going back to the beginning, is, do you, do you think that being physically close to other cultures, other languages, is it normal for Americans in in California to learn Spanish or

Florida. The other side.

The other side. Um, is it normal for Americans to to learn Spanish?

Well, it depends what you mean by American.

Right.

So, I mean, that that the question is posed in the sense that in your, in the back of your mind, you picture a Caucasian English speaker. While in America right now, I would say, just a rough guess, 30 to 40% of the population, their native language, uh, language spoken at home is is not English. Or, you know, at least for their parents, it's been that way. I don't know the exact statistics, but I I'd be sure to say it's more than 20%, not 30%.

I think some people have a, uh, a funny impression of the US. Europeans in particular think, oh yeah, you know, that's where they only speak English. No. Basically almost all all the major languages in the world are spoken in the United States. Um, unfortunately, uh, some second, third generations lose it, but where there's concentration, you know, diaspora, um, you know, the language continues on. And of course, Spanish is very strong in the US. Uh, extremely strong.

Of course, what I was going to get at was

Yeah, I know, I know what you're trying to and I, I can I know exact I I just had to throw that in there. Sorry about that.

No problem. It's just that I was trying just trying to get at what what you get that interest.

My brothers and sisters didn't learn to speak Spanish. How's that?

Right, there you go. So, will you can you look back in

And they're second citizens and they studied it and they can't, they can say Hola, como estas or something like that, but, you know, that's with a not even sounding like that, of course.

Right.

Yeah. No, it's, it's, um, yeah. So, what you're you you hit the nail on the head in saying there's a lot of, um, native English speakers in the US who don't bother learning another language, even though it surrounds them.

Right, that's a, I've talked about that on the podcast a few times.

Yeah, and that's that's accurate. It's accurate, but I I just want to give, you know, bring that other part into about being America being a very multicultural, multilingual country, plurilingual country.

Right. I wanted, what I wanted to find out was just if you look back, do you see any sort of inspirations or any events or maybe even cultural movies that that sort of made you this, uh, hungry for languages that I, I mean, even for people living in very multilingual, uh, environments or countries would not travel the world and learn all those languages that you've done. So, I'm just trying to look at the origin of of Tim. Where did, where did you get that passion from in the beginning?

I, I had, you know, it's hard to say, you know, there's not one particular incidence, but, uh, there are some things that I, I do recall. Um, one is I would listen to shortwave radio, uh, and this is the, uh, so, I'm six years old, I was born in '56. So, early 60s, okay. So, um, you know, for the technology then, shortwave radio if you want to hear something in a foreign language. And I listened to languages I hadn't I I didn't understand, but I like the sound of them. So, I was attracted to that.

Um, my old as I got a little bit older, um, about H8 or so, my sister, my oldest sister was in a group called Up With People, which went around the world singing. And so, we had visitors from various parts of the world, and I was always fascinated to to meet, uh, somebody who spoke English differently and spoke a different language. I always wanted to know what they said. And since there were a lot of Spanish speakers around, especially from, you know, age 12, um, in South Florida, I was in Central Florida, then South Florida. And I always wanted to make sure I understood what everybody said. Always very curious. What are they saying? Um, so, that's that's one factor.

Also, I as a as a young child, um, even from age six and seven, I would actually read National Geographic. You're familiar with National Geographic?

Yeah.

Yeah. And I'm, um, yeah, I was kind of, let's say, advanced kid. I could read National Geographic when when they go to school and have to read, um, John Dick and Harry, whatever that was, you know, Jane Dick and Harry, whatever. That simple book was, I was, was bored to death, bored to death in that, uh, class. But, um, yeah, I was just very fascinated by by different cultures and the sounds of different languages. So, that has a lot to do with it, I guess. And just kind of curiosity. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, vive la différence. I want to know, you know, what's different. I don't know what they I I get kind of bored with the, you know, people same culture.

Right, of course, which is evident by you you moving around so much and

Yeah. Yeah, let's put it this way. I most of my relationships have not been with native English speakers.

Right. Wouldn't imagine so with, uh, if you really enjoyed the variety of of of different cultures and Yes.

Yes.

I guess that's normal for the so-called community, you know, where people are really excited about foreign and foreign culture and, well, just

Oh, polyglot community, yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I I see it a lot where

Yeah, I think it's very common.

People find more interest abroad, for sure. I'm definitely the same.

But I think in case, what you have in Europe is that, you know, you, let's say you're from Luxembourg. So, if you're from Luxembourg, so, and and let's say you you you speak Luxembourgish is your native tongue. Okay, so, you have to learn English, French, and German for sure. And maybe they usually stop there though, you know?

Yeah.

I mean, it's not necessarily an interest per se. It's more like a need. But if you're a native English speaker, I mean, look around the polyglot community. Those who have quite a few languages are usually native English speakers.

Right.

Not all, not all, there are many exceptions, but a good portion, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So, um, why? Well, for us, you know, we can usually use English in a lot of places around the world. So, we have to love the one to, you know, the languages or otherwise, you know, we're not going to do it.

Right. I find it fascinating anyway. And and I, I mean, traveling so much, did you ever, did you ever think about settling down somewhere or did you always see the new adventure lurking in the in the distant future?

Uh, until about age 32. The first 14 years. First, um, yeah, I mean, there was no desire to have any deep roots, uh, for the first, let's say, 12 years for sure. Um, which, you know, was Colombia, South America, um, first Switzerland, uh, worked in Germany, lived in Poland for two years, you know, also, uh, from Poland, it was Southeast Asia and Japan. So, uh, you know, there Japan from 81 to, uh, 85, I was, you know, mainly here. I was traveling the world, I was, I, uh, made good money back then, as there weren't many, um, native English speakers in this area of Japan. And actually, I could make a hell of a lot of money back then, just, uh, well, everything from teaching English classes to doctors, uh, to, um, uh, correcting, uh, uh, business documents at companies, uh, etc. It was a pretty incredible pay back then. I mean, I could sometimes get the equivalent of about 7,000, 8,000 dollars a month.

Wow, yeah, that's a lot of money.

Yeah, and this is this is 80 prices. So, let's say that's $10 to $12,000 a month as as a student.

Right.

So, that really financed that was that was a financed a great trip.

Oh yeah, I was going to ask because, uh, traveling around the world at such a young age, obviously, I I don't imagine you've had massive amounts of savings by by then to

Um, no, no, the first no, but I did work from a young age, but the first the first part was mainly scholarships. Um, I I I had scholarships to study and I I went to eight universities, you see. So, um, university going to university is the way to get get a visa, especially in a place like Poland and get scholarship money. For long at least. So, like in Poland for two years, uh, the end of the of the, um, the Soviet era, which we could say, when Solidarity came out in '81, when I was there. Um, we had it great, because we we we we we paid pennies for our education. We paid a dollar a month for our dorm.

Wow.

For a couple for about $2.50, we could buy coupons for breakfast, lunch, and dinner for a whole month. So, basically you could live on $3 a month.

Wow.

Now, I didn't do that. I lived on about a couple hundred a month, because I I I ate great meals, had four-star hotel, and I had a car and two sailboats. But I could go work in Germany and things like that, and I would run black market between Poland and Germany. Black, uh, go to East Germany and, um, uh, go to West Germany and and buy five East German marks for one West German mark.

Right.

And then buy East German goods. East German made some good good good um optics, optic, you know, cameras and and, um, uh, binoculars and things like that, and I sell them in Poland, and I buy the marks back, or I'd go to to Vienna and buy coffee and wool, and send it in. Uh, you know, typical typical opportunities in in a in a command economy, you know, where there's a lack.

Right.

So, um, no, I just always found a way to make money. So, yeah.

That's fantastic.

It's Yeah. I mean, you just sometimes I traveled real cheap. I I was in, uh, bicycling on Yugoslavia, I mean, I slept out basically every day just in my sleeping bag, you know, it was nice weather.

Right.

Just stopped my bike and went in the bushes and slept, you know? So, wasn't spending much money.

It's not too expensive, yeah.

No, no.

That's great. And how did you when you the language part of it, what what did you do to learn the languages that you were coming in contact with, like when you moved to these different countries?

Well, always preparation for me. Um, I I think it's kind of a a waste. Um, and if if you're planning to go to a country and you say, okay, I'll learn the language when I get there. I think that's kind of a waste of the amount of time that you are there. Um, I think you should really study hard and study at least to an intermediate level. Um, if you can, before you go. I mean, sometimes, um, maybe that might might not be possible, but, uh, I think as much the much if you can do a lot of preparation, you'll be better off. Let's put it that way. Um, okay, when now I have it. The more preparation you do, the better. Uh, I was having problem with my English there. Starting off with much and then I knew it was wrong. This is part of, it's part of not speaking English so often and part of being a little bit drunk.

Don't worry about it.

But yeah. No, I'm the type that, for example, okay, I went to, uh, 2006, I had a conference, um, cross-cultural psychology conference. By the way, I'm a professor of cross-cultural management. So, um, I go to international business business and cross-cultural psychology conferences, besides now the polyglot. And, um, okay, it was in Greece. So, oh, perfect, perfect reason for me to learn Greek. So, I spent, oh, an average of four or five hours a day for for or five months learning Greek. And, you know, we're going to have a polyglot conference in Greece coming up. I have to, I have to work on my Greek again.

Yeah.

Um, and, so, actually, I got a very high level, and I got there, I had starting conversations right off. Um, now, I was it's an interesting case, this is the first time, um, that I put so much effort into a language and only use it for two weeks.

Right.

Um, what happens is my comprehension level is quite high. Um, but my, uh, spoken language is is suffers, but I think, um, uh, September, I'll study four or five hours a day and be ready for October in Greece. Um, so, yeah, I mean, this most languages, uh, I've been able to use for a longer period of time.

The year after that, by the way, I I I spent a month in Greece, two weeks of it were in Crete, actually going to a language school, but I got kicked out of the group class, and so, I had to take private. Um, I got kicked out because the questions I asked were way beyond what the students understood. They were they were heritage speakers who knew nothing about languages. So, when I started talking about cases, then they kind of kicked out. So, the teacher says, why don't you why don't you take a private lesson?

That's funny.

Yeah. I've never done, yeah, always in class, I've been kind of, um, either loved by some or hated by others, you know.

Too good.

Because you you know, as you know, if you you learn a lot of language, you're your, uh, metalinguistic knowledge, knowledge about language, is quite different. So, the kind of questions you ask, what you're interested in. You can ask a certain question that automatically gives you a lot of information for somebody else, it's just quite confusing, because they don't understand grammatical terms. They don't have the analytic concepts in their head. They don't see language that way. They're more in the memorization type, you know.

Totally.

Woo, woo.

Yeah. If they really want. So, so, how does the, how does the language journey changed over the years? Presumably, it's gotten, I mean, there are more resources available, more methods and

Exactly.

Have you changed your kind of approach to language learning over the years?

Well, fundamentally, no, but, uh, if you look at perhaps what the actual pragmatics, what I'm actually doing, yes. Uh, what I mean by that is, okay, for example, uh, let's go back to the beginning in Colombia. So, here I'm in Colombia, I'm using Spanish every day at university. And then as I said, I decided, okay, I'm going to study French, German and Portuguese here. And, uh, also, um, I was going out with a girl whose father wanted their family to learn languages. So, he bought all these, uh, linguaphone, uh, these these little, um, not even the big, what do they call them, the small 33 records with books and such, you know. So, um, yeah, he he had for Russian and even Esperanto. It's the first time I touched Esperanto, though, I I didn't study it much. Um, so, he gave them all to me, because nobody else wanted them in the family.

That's great.

So, I, so, I I I bought a little record player, and I, uh, I I forced myself to study about two hours a day on a language besides Spanish and then keep up with the lessons at those places. So, yeah, I only had the records then. And then or you seek somebody out. You go to like an Alliance Française or a Goethe Institute, and you you actually have to find the people and talk to them. So, yeah, you know, fundamentally, it's the same thing. But now, we can Skype. I can Skype with somebody. But you know, now it's so easy that you just blow it off at times.

Right.

You know? It's right at your fingertips, and then you don't appreciate it. But back then, if I say, oh, you can meet this Brazilian tonight. Oh, fantastic. But to be Portuguese with the bank, I want to follow this. You know, so, I'm getting really excited about getting ready to speak Portuguese and everything. You know? And then now, you know, I have friends in Brazil and previous students. I could, you know, go on Facebook and talk to them. How often do I do that? Hardly ever. I was caught up in something mundane or something else I'm working on, you know.

Yeah, Richard Benson, who was on the podcast recently, also, he said, he he talked about how he learned Swedish back in, uh, when was it? The 70s or 80s? Something like that. And he's he said, he he went to the library to find resources, and all they had was a month-old newspaper, and it cost $5. And back then, you know, $5 was a ridiculous amount of money. And I was just thinking like, wow, we're really blessed to be in such a position today. But as you say there,

We are.

That does come with the, there's two

You have to be motivated. Yeah.

Yeah. So, how, how do you stay motivated these days?

Um, well, um, it depends on the language. Uh, I mean, if if I look at my situation right now, this year, I spend most of my time. Okay, let me give you a little bit of information. So, I I teach management related courses. It could be accounting and and basically, I teach cross-cultural management, but also accounting and economics in Japanese. But my seminars are mainly foreigners. My graduate students, my second year seminar are all foreigners. I think in all my seminar means you have a select group of students, could be two to 30, you know, it depends how many apply for your seminar and how many you accept. I've accepted a lot in the past. I try to keep it down to 10 or 15 now. But anyway, right now, I have a total of about for one year, one to four, about 80 or 90. And 90% are not Japanese. Okay.

So, um, I'm always lecturing in Japanese, but in the seminars, um, these are languages I have my seminars. Uh, Nepali, Bengali, uh, Sinhala, uh, Vietnamese, uh, Chinese, uh, Burmese, uh, Thai and Indonesian. Those those are my students. Okay. Now, I don't speak Sinhala and Bengali, just a little bit from what I know in Hindi and Nepali. But, uh, so, I'm mainly using Nepali, Vietnamese and Chinese. My Chinese is very strong because I studied Chinese literature. Um, so, of course, Japanese is the strongest, followed by Chinese, followed by Thai. I wrote a book in Thai. I spent for 10 years, two two months a year, I I taught as a adjunct professor at Chulalongkorn University in Thailand. So, in Asian languages, Japanese, Chinese, and Thai, they're followed by Indonesian, Malay, Vietnamese, and then Nepali is also getting very strong because I've been I just trekked Annapurna for 25 days. I'm going to go trek to Everest Base Camp this year for a month. Um, so, basically, and I got more and more Nepali students.

So, so, basically, okay, you asked me about motivated. So, I know that I'm going to just last August, you know, I trekked Annapurna region, August, September. I was just really gratified, uh, the reaction I got by speaking Nepali. Um, it wasn't the first time, but, um, this was up in the mountains and the villages and such. And it got to the point where before I would get to the next village, people had already heard of me, you know, it's that white guy who speaks Nepali. The that that tall white that tall white blonde guy who speaks Nepali. And they would say sometimes like a native, not that my Nepali is native, but keep in mind, the people I'm speaking to, a lot of that a lot of them Nepali is not their mother tongue. They, you know, there's so many like it could be Gurung or or Tamang. Uh, there's so many there's a there's a 100 basically about 120 languages, uh, in Nepal. Or you, you know, something like that lecture. So, anyway, it was very it's a very gratifying, people got a big kick out. They're shocked, you know. So, usually, I try to to, uh, make them feel comfortable and I just explain, I say that, uh, mo ahile janam wa Nepali thee. I say, in my previous lifetime, I was Nepali.

Right.

And so, that usually sends they feel okay then, okay, that's why you speak that way. Um, but yeah, I mean, that's, you know, what I'm saying the interaction is a great motivation. So, I can be motivated now by language I know I'm going to use. So, I'm going to, so, I concentrate on Nepal, Nepali. Vietnamese because every week, I've got some students coming to my class. I mean, my my my research room and we practice together English and Vietnamese. Um, so, what else do I work on a lot. I have Vietnamese and Nepali, uh, I mean, you know, I some Farsi and other languages, you know, I'll touch on here and there. Um, but my motivation really comes from the feeling that I'm going to use this language with somebody. And it's going to be very rewarding.

Um, okay. So, for example, I gave you the Greek example. Uh, another example is I had the same type of conference, uh, International Association of Cross-Cultural Psychology in, um, in Copstat in, um, South Africa. And Cape Town. And so, I said, okay, I'm going to become fluent in Afrikaans before I go there. And what what had been interesting is I had seen a, um, a show about prisons in South Africa, and there was a lot of Afrikaans on this documentary show. And I understood everything they're saying. Because I speak good I speak German well, I've studied some Dutch, and, um, you know, Norwegian, you put those together. As a Dane, as a Dane and speaking some German English, you probably would also understand an Afrikaans, Afrikanisch Praat, eh, ek dink ek kan verstaan.

Indeed.

Yeah, you see, you probably understood what I said there, right?

Indeed.

Yeah, okay. So, um, so, I said, yeah, I want to be able to speak it well. So, you know, that was motivation. So, I really put a lot of effort into Afrikaans. And, um, you know, that's usually what's what's behind it. The motivation comes from I'm going to use it. I would find it hard just to learn a language knowing that I'm not going to be able to use it with anybody. So, I I can say, I I I am amazed by some polyglots who really go into a language, but rarely rarely use it.

Yeah, just to for the sake of it, just for the

Or I conquered it or what or I don't know. I'm not a I'm not a numbers guy.

Ed one.

Yeah, it's just it's just. I mean, you know, the numbers game is really funny, because, you know, if you if you really want to be a hero in the numbers game, we'll be way up there. Just learn your Slavic language. So, you know, at least you can say there's at least 13, it depends how you divide them up, maybe 17 or 18. You can, well, you can, polyglots can, people who used to, could could conquer, you know, get very high level in in in 13 to 15 Slavic languages and dialects and and if you if you had like a couple, and, you know, a couple of years, I think. I mean, that's I know, I maybe some people can't relate this.

Okay, let me put it this way. I learned Serbo-Croatian very quickly. So, you have Serbian and Croatian, I know the differences of, you know, between the various dialects there, the, uh, what divides them up. Um, and then next is Polish, and I was, well, I lived in Poland, of course, we didn't have internet. We didn't even have a TV in our dorm. We had a radio, it was only Polish broadcast. And basically, we went to school, and then we had parties most every night or at least sat around talked all night. So, I would speak Polish about 8 to 10 hours a day for two years. Well, I was out of the country a little bit there, but, you know, I'm saying, uh, that's a damn quick way to learn the language. Or not to say a not a quick way to learn it very deeply. Okay, so, Polish, Serbo-Croatian, and then I studied Russian. With those three languages, I mean, already, you know, you with the get down to study four or five hours a day, go to Ukraine for, you know, a month, and already you speak quite you could speak Ukrainian well or Belorussian or or Czech or Slovak or, you know.

Yeah, they're really similar. It's, it's

Yeah, they they, you know, it's it's like it's like if you spoke, uh, Spanish, Portuguese, French, it's all going to learn Italian. I mean, I understood Italian the first time I heard it, because I already spoke Spanish, French, and and Portuguese. And so, it's like, so now it's, you know, I bought a library, an Italian, you know, I said, I'm going to say this now, I'm going to say this now, I'm going to say this now. You know, it's quite easy, you know.

Yeah.

And if I really want to sound like an Italian and get into it, then I get in that mindset, I study it harder and improve it, you know. So, of course, you can bring it to different levels. But so far as communication, understanding a lot. Once, uh, polyglot gets to a variety of languages, let's say, you pass 10 languages, you pass 15 languages, and you have Slavic and Romance and some Asian and maybe some African languages. You're familiar with a lot of different kinds of structures in language. And then also, of course, you have vocabulary. Because if you when you, okay, start just age in Asia, there's so many variety of languages which are not really related, but they are related, they have influence from all they've influenced from one another. So, um, you see influence from Sanskrit and Arabic and Farsi all throughout Asia. Even in Indonesia, Malaysia, you have words from there.

Right.

Uh, just the word for language is the same, more or less the same in Lao, Pasabasa, you know, Indonesian, Malay, Lao, Thai, uh, Bengali, Nepali, all all have the same, they all have the same word for the for language, for example. Or or similar derivation of it, right? You have Salama, Salam, you know, shalom. You there's just variations on the theme, you know.

Right. So, when you learn a lot of languages or when you put in more and more effort, you're also rewarded greater and greater, because you understand a bigger picture of the world's language.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember in graduate in graduate class about six years ago, I had a guy from, uh, about eight years ago, actually, from Albania. And, um, so, I was just wondering, you know, I I'd never been to Albania. Actually, I kind of stepped my foot across the border, uh, when near near, um, uh, what was it? I forget the name of the town, but, uh, going from Dubrovnik to the border. Anyhow, um, I just wondered if I could understand Albanian. So, um, you know, I just looked on the Internet, and there was a BBC article, and I started reading it. And it was about some international conference. So, I understood it. I I I I had a general gist of what was going on, because, you know, I me, you know, something like that, you know, so, they they have your loan words and such, and, you know, Greek, you know, the Slavic languages, you know, Albanian is quite different, um, but it borrows these words. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah. Um, you also you also learn to understand a lot from context, right?

Right.

You become much more, uh, tolerant for ambiguity, tolerant of ambiguity in language. Being willing to fill in and doing it quickly.

Right. Just essentially the the practice that you're putting your mind through as a as a continual language learner is is filling the blanks and the more you do it, the better you become at it.

Yeah, exactly. And one of the things that, um, well, I proposed to, uh, speak about in in in Greece this time. And I guess they'll accept my my offer. Um, is about is about language and age. So, it's related to what I spoke about in Berlin. And okay, so, I'm 60 years old this year. But I'm a better learner at 60 than I was at 50, than I was at 40, than I was at 30, than I was at 20. So, every 10 years, let's say, if you measured it, I've gotten quicker, better.

Um, it's so, but if you took a monolingual, whether it's a monolingual Dane, a monolingual Hungarian, a monolingual English speaker, and you challenge them to learn a language right now, it's a different story. Of course, it is. The structure of the brain is different. The actual structure of the brain, they're not, they haven't the the parts of the brain, okay, so, this is not a far from an exact science, okay? Uh, neurolinguistics is far from from having a deep knowledge of what's going on in the brain. But let's say, uh, but from what we do know, the brain is going to, uh, change in ways that are radically different if you know quite a few languages and if you've never studied one. So, age is a factor when you haven't done that. But, I mean, you just said, um, yeah, if you have that experience, it's quite rewarding. It is. And the and the it doesn't stop. You know, the more you learn, and when I say learn, for me, that means actually feel it too, okay? It's not something intellectual, just intellectual. It's not analytical. It's just not analytical. It's it's actually feeling it and using it. So, let's say, the more you you know language to your heart and mind, then the the more powerful you are to learn new languages. Because there's a which I always talk about, you know, which if you if you if you read my papers, I'm always talking about the psychological, attitudinal aspects. In other words, you become very adept in those aspects.

Right.

The the, well, the brain is just so adaptive that if you keep doing the same thing, the the the areas of the brain responsible for that will will grow and and form better connections, more connections, and, um, so, I I definitely think that I've I've read about this as well, and the plasticity is a it's a fascinating concept. Also sometimes used to as a counter-argument when they say that neuroplasticity isn't that high in adults. So, they say, oh, we should learn languages when we're kids, you know, and of course, it's a little bit bullshit, but

It's just interesting anyway.

Okay, my my my my papers are out in academic use you. The one that I just, okay, I'm going to put out the new one, but the one I just gave in Berlin, I have a paper out on that. I already I I I discussed most of the studies that are important enough to realize that that's a bunch of crap.

That's really is. Of course, a child has greater plasticity, but plasticity works both ways. It means you can you can learn and forget just as quick.

Yeah.

If you have great plasticity.

No, no. You take a take a look at children. I mean, I, okay, think about it. Um, in my case, I've watched my children, because my children were born in the US, because I was working, uh, in at General Electric at that time. But, uh, then before, uh, the older one was two years old and and the younger one was a couple months old, we came to Japan. So, I've watched what's happened to them with English and Japanese throughout the years. And, uh, and with other languages, because we've traveled the world with them. And so, you know, you can learn very quickly, but they also drop it very quickly.

Right.

And and and also, children are children show you the the the the importance of the emotional aspect of language. You know, it's got it's a significant other is their motivation. So, you know, they want to communicate. And so, they're going to learn it fast when that's important to them. But when that significant other, whether it's somebody in the family or friend, understands the language, what they find easy at that point, easier to speak, they'll just drop it and speak that language. There's no, I want to practice my, uh, I want to practice my English with you. No, you understand Japanese. I'm going to speak Japanese. I mean, my kids are they're the older one began as a native English speaker, native, whatever that means, and changed to a Japanese speaker, you know.

So, that's interesting. Yeah.

Yeah, so, yeah, this this this idea of something neurological blocking you. Yes, there is, but, uh, it doesn't it's it's not something you can't change. When I mean, yes, it is, is when ever as you mentioned, if you do something over and over again, for example, if you pronounce something incorrectly over and over again, or what's say, if you don't just, no, better yet. If you don't distinguish between two sounds, let's say, you're Japanese, the famous R and L case. If you don't distinguish between R and L constantly, because it's not important in Japanese, you know, I can say, Lare-duru, rare-duru, rar-ne, rar-leh. So, it doesn't matter, which I'm making more like a lay or ray sound. Sometimes it's a little bit accustomed to make one way or the other in certain words, but it doesn't matter. Same meaning. So, the more that that's done, then the the connections grow stronger and for not distinguishing me. So, you you have to really pay attention. And you need the noticing and then the desire, and then you can distinguish and then you fix it. You got it.

Right.

So, yeah, I mean, any age, at any age, okay? Yeah. So, it's it's, well, hopefully I'll give this speech in Greece and you come watch this one, okay?

Oh yeah, for sure.

The paper will be out before then. I'll put it up in in you can in you can read it.

Well, I'll just link it to here so people always know where to find all the the papers and and all that we were talking about.

Since I'm the conference, I put up that paper. I've been pleased I had, I just I got 600 hits in one day. So, I've gotten for one week, I've gotten 2,000 something readers on it. So, I've been pleased with that.

Nice. Well, I'll include a link in the description of this episode as well. Uh,

I I I put it in the, you see in the polyglot thing, I I put it there. I can send it to you if you want.

Well, I'll just link it to here. So, people always know where to find all the the papers and and all that we were talking about. So, you you talk about the study time or the desk time being quite important.

Okay.

And can you share sort of the activities that, I mean, we heard about you listening to tapes back in the day, but what are you doing what are you doing now to if you say, had to go to I don't know, um, somewhere where you don't know the country at all, the language at all, I don't know, like Ireland, maybe.

I mean, I'm I'm preparing for to go to a country where I don't speak the language. Let's say, okay, um, so, I went to learn I'm going to Nigeria and I want to learn Hausa, okay? So, okay, well, um, I'm I'm going to get a teach yourself or colloquial or whatever. Okay, I don't want to push any certain publisher. Whoever whoever has a decent book with with audio, okay? And it could be something online. And, um, so, I want to understand the dialogues, and then once I understand them, I'm going to listen to them on my driving to work and things like that. Uh, so, that's, um, but as you know, when you do that, often your mind wanders. So, I could be thinking about a thousand things while going through three Pimsleur lessons. I do a lot of I have a very big, uh, um, orchid here and the garden. So, I I've been working a lot. So, I work in the garden, sometimes I'll listen to podcasts, uh, I've been listening to podcasts in Greek recently. Um, I'm sorry, I've kind of lost it. What was your question?

It's about, uh, I guess the levels of input, but also just what do you fill your desk time with, your four or five hours of

Oh, oh, okay, okay. So, if I'm starting if I'm starting off in the beginning, okay? So, my answer made sense. I'm sobering up now, by the way. So, I guess I'm getting worse, and I'm getting sober. Um, I yeah, I would just, you know, do the start from lesson one. And, um, I want to quickly understand what the dialogues are so that I can just listen when I'm doing something else, like working or driving. Um, and, um, I'm going to make sure I get through the book before I really start going to other materials, uh, like, um, trying to understand a movie or something else. I'm I'm it's it's kind of hard. I can I sometimes watch Nepali movies with no subtitles and I can follow the story with no problem. But I'm missing at times, depending on the conversation, I'll get sometimes 100%, sometimes 80, sometimes 40%. Sure. You know, it depends on what's said. But I follow the whole story. Um, but you know, in order to do that, you have to spend a lot of desk time with the boring, um, sometimes boring lesson one through 23, you know what I'm saying?

Right.

Yeah. So, no, I I do that same old same old stuff. Uh, it's not as fun it's harder to motivate yourself in that case. But, um, I think some people, uh, nowadays online, they have tutors and such.

Yeah.

Uh, I tend not to do that. I I'll do a language exchange. Um, I I feel that I really need to push myself first to the limit, and then maybe, uh, go to a tutor.

That makes sense.

Yeah. Otherwise, it's it's kind of like I saying, you know, because a tutor, you know, the Internet is just like being in the country, right?

Yeah.

I mean, because if we're speaking Danish now, there'll be no difference than like, okay, a Dane who's visiting me here in Japan, or I've gone to Denmark and I'm, you know, um, talking to my friend, Christopher. So, you know what I'm saying?

Exactly.

So, I think I think one thing maybe people might rely on that too much. They expect too much from, you know, interaction. Rather than rather than the the old way. But see that's that's just the way I grew up with it, because I grew up in, you know, a different age. If you're looking at polyglots who are, you know, in their 20s or 30s, okay? So, you know, I started 30, 40 years before they did. So, it was different. Yeah.

Yeah, I think a tutor for for me personally is is somebody who can maybe do some troubleshooting or maybe clear up something or make push you over some kind of hump you've been having. But in terms of,

Well, you need to formulate that question first in your mind.

Right. Yeah, I think I think it I think you do the most learning on by yourself in the at the desk, whether that's a textbook or a video course or audio lessons, or whatever it is, I think you do a lot of the learning there, and then a tutor is more somebody who can, you know, correct some of the mistakes you might be making, because they can hear it instantly, or they might be able to answer some complicated grammar questions. But then again, some people hire tutors who are native speakers who don't understand their own language, how it really works. They can just tell you whether it's correct or not. Um, so, yeah, I don't, I I think tutoring is nice, but I don't think you learn much.

Yeah, yeah. Also, it can be a little bit frustrating sometimes, because, uh, as you say, some people, I'd say, okay, maybe they don't know their own language enough in terms of, uh, the analytical part. Um, I'm very analytical, and I'm very, uh, let's say, uh, the right and left brain, so very emotional learner as well as a very analytical learner. And that may be somewhat rare. Um, but I think it makes me a good learner. And I but it's I don't think that necessarily we're stuck with whatever our tendencies are, that we can we can make basic changes to the way our our mind functions. But I've allowed my both kind of the, uh, uh, holistic and, uh, artish type feeling type side grow as strong as the analytical side. And so, basically, right, left. And I think in language that's really important.

So, what happens is, uh, if I have a tutor, I want to concentrate on the left side of the analytical side. And I'll ask questions which sometimes they find hard to answer. Um, and I have to explain things, you know, okay, look, it functions this way. It's kind of it's it seems like sometimes you're trying to add somebody who is much has much less less, um, uh, uh, much doesn't have the same amount of experience and ability in the language. It's like it's like you're trying to lecture the person who's a native speaker of the language. And it sounds kind of stupid and arrogant. But I mean, this happened to me the other day in my seminar with, because I had Vietnamese from different parts of Vietnam and and and I said, look, hey, let's begin the class. Let's, you know, I usually say, let's play the first 10 minutes. You guys, each of you have to teach your own language to the rest of the class, you know. So, we just do this to, you know, begin a 90-minute class or something different. And he's teaching Vietnamese, and the pronunciation, and then I'm pointing out, okay, it was this way in the north and it's this way in the south. And we get into this argument. And and so, here I am, you know, the non-native speaker, far from being, you know, a native speaker, arguing with him. I had to bring out a video and show him that this was the case.

That's funny.

Does it just this is kind of a awareness of it. You know, this you know, people people don't have the same level of awareness. Uh, you know, like just in this case, there are so many dialects in Vietnam and and and but there are three major different areas, there's central, north, and south. And you know, they they they hear it, but they really haven't paid attention to how it differs. Then it sounds different. I say, okay, it differs in this way. Uh, huh. Right. So, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, um, it often sounds like I'm just rambling on, but I remember your question in this case.

No, it's good. It's good. I like it. And people shouldn't use, well, they can of course, use native speakers. I think particularly for pronunciation that that usually makes sense. I guess except not in this case, I I feel

Is is somebody gets motivated by great. If if it's good for somebody, I don't want to put any method down.

No, no, not at all. I I like to be very open about trying everything and and seeing But I tried having a non-native speaker for Hungarian, for instance, and that made a lot of sense, because he could he could explain the grammar and the usage in a very obvious way to me, whereas a native speaker would probably just say, well, this is how it is, deal with it, you know.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that that could be very good at times because they've had the same experience. And so, they can know if they speak some of the same languages you do, they can say, hey, it's like this and this such and such a language. I mean, if I were going to teach you Korean, and you knew or or or um, what's say? Anybody's going to teach you Korean and and both of you know Japanese, then you say, oh, yeah, this, you know, like in Japanese this way, uh, but if in in when you're trying to explain that in English, you really have to say so much more because you have to explain what a topic language is. How topic language functions, and so, yeah. Or like, you know, between Slavic languages and such. So, you know, there are similarities, and so, you know.

Yeah, I I love the different way of thinking. That's that's probably one a big eye opener for me was that just a different language is a is a different way of seeing the world. It's not just different words. It's actually a different world. For instance, when in one of my first Russian lessons, I I discovered that there was no definite articles or I I guess indeed any article. And, um, and my and I had to tell that to my friends recently, and they were just they had the same look on their face that I had back then. And I was like, yeah, I guess I've like I've kind of incorporated that. It's just part of my world now that, yeah, you languages don't need articles.

How about this one? When you say not only no definite indefinite articles, but no tense, no singular and plural.

Okay. Well, that's quite shocking, yeah.

Okay, well, that's you're you're talking basically about Chinese, Thai, Malay, Lao, Indonesian, though they're all not Chinese is not related to Thai, uh, and Vietnamese. I mean, they but they all have the same characteristic. They don't have tense, they don't have singular and plural, um, and, uh, what was the other thing? Oh, they don't have articles. Okay. So, I mean, especially if you take like a Spanish speaker, you know, where you're trying to explain, you know, you don't have any of those things. It's it's really kind of tough to wrap your head around.

I guess it's hard the other way around then for for for Chinese speakers to learn Spanish and and English then.

Well, yeah. Because they're missing all these things, you know. Yeah, I mean, the article thing is tough, but you have to keep in mind though, articles are used differently between Brits and Americans. They have different meanings. If I, as you're English is basically modeled after the British English, and you probably say, uh, yeah, uh, in hospital, right?

Yeah, yeah, I would, yeah.

But no, no American would ever say in hospital, unless they've been influenced by the Brits, it wouldn't make any sense to them. Right. They say, they're in the hospital or they're in a hospital. But if you say in the hospital in British English, it's kind of like physically in the building, rather than being a patient there.

Right.

And that distinction is not made in American English.

That's that's also interesting.

And in Japanese, there's a difference. In Japanese, they say new-een, which is enter it's kind of like enter taking a second character, and you enter, enter the hospital, means you're a patient. But b-u-i-n-g e-r-u would just your in the hospital. So, it's a different way to express it. But you see, things like, so, the articles in as I was saying, even amongst English have, you know, different significance. And of course, um, even amongst the European, you're Indo-European language. So, European language, in particular, where you have articles, those languages that do have articles. Um, they function differently. Uh, generally, generally, generally the same, but, you know, Germans run around, you know, saying, you know, der Goethe, right? And der Brenda, or whatever, you know. So, I wouldn't say, oh, the John came here today.

Right. Oh yeah, I love that. I love that. That's I kind of I love that usage of of the articles in Germany.

And and then, you know, Danish is more like Norwegian, right? You put you you it goes after the word, right?

Yeah, yeah, the definite ones, yeah.

You say hoos it, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly. So, they that seems a little bit strange to I mean, yeah, these these it's really it is a different way of looking at the world. It is. Because it's a kind of a classification, sense of classification. And, um, like if you if you take, for example, Indonesian and, um, uh, when there was, um, shoot, I'm on a podcast, I can't remember somebody's name. So, it would be embarrassing. From Sweden, uh, the lovely girl from Sweden talking about Indonesian Swedish and, um,

Charlotte.

Yeah, Charlotte. Thank you. Don't shoot me, Charlotte. Um, you know, she brought up plurals. I said, wait, wait a second. You you can double the word in Indonesian for a plural, but it's not the same meaning as plural in English. They don't have the same concept. Because you can you could say, you know, like, buku saya di mana? It would be where is my book or where are my books. Right. Doesn't, you know, this but if I say, buku-buku bagus untuk belajar, if I say, books are good for studying. Then I use it that way, because I'm speaking kind of a general sense. Like in English, different between the book, a books. Books are good for studying. Right. So, it functions differently. Yeah. It's a general concept. Yeah. And so, so they don't see the need to say singular and plural a lot of times. Right. And, you know, and it's what's interesting, it's the same in all Asia. Asia is all like that. And they're not related. Japanese, Korean, uh, Chinese, uh, Lao, Malay, Thai, Indonesian, uh, and interesting, and Hindi requires it, Nepali doesn't. But it can. So, it's it's it's interesting how this as you go from Asia onwards, um, it it, you know, you hit the Arabic language, which is actually, uh, and and it starts, you know, the the articles. Yeah. And that's where it all comes from. And I and I, you know, Danish is more like Norwegian, right? You put you you it goes after the word, right?

Yeah, yeah. I read something interesting recently about how a lot of the idioms and a lot of the phrases phrases we have today are kind of tied into old practices, and people are wondering, well, will the kids of the future understand these strange?

Right. Exactly. Yeah. No, no. They they lose they they they lose. Of course, they lose meaning. I mean, I could show you many words like that. What do you think when you hear breakfast?

Yeah, just morning meal.

Why? What does it mean? Two words there.

Yeah, I I I I have thought about, you know, breaking the fast, but I don't understand the implications.

Okay, okay. But that's just a general example, you know, that people don't usually think of that, right? It's just a morning meal, but they're not thinking of, you know, breaking the fast. Right. But interestingly, I think for I think breakfast is a very interesting word in the languages that I know, because like in Danish is just morning food. Yeah. In in in Norwegian, they say Morgenmad. Morgonmat. Yeah, so, morning food. Uh, how do you say it again? Morgonmad. Morgonmad. Uh, mad at the end. So, it's the food. Morgonmad. Morgonmad. And, um, everywhere Morgonmad. Okay, I hope we're not boring the crap out of you. No, anyway, I was just going to say we've been, we've been we've been having a great time. So, the the the time keeps ticking away, and I know it's late for you there. So, I just wanted to wrap things up and

No, no, it's only 10:30, it's okay.

Oh, no problem. No problem. But, um, but, uh, just for the

I just forgive you I have to eat tomorrow. Listening, maybe I'll listen to the Greek pod the whole day I work in the yard tomorrow.

That sounds like a good idea.

But anyway, Tim, thank you so much for coming and sharing all these great stories and and concepts with with me and and the rest of the audience. It's Okay, audience. If if you have anything nice to say, tell me. If you have something bad to say, uh, just tell uh, crystal. I tell it to Tim.

Tell it to Tim.

Thank you so much for listening to the Actual Fluency podcast. If you want to come on to the podcast and share your language learning story, don't hesitate to apply on actualfluency.com/guest. See you in the next one.