Elisa Polese: Teaching Multiple Languages at Once
Kris Broholm interviews Elisa Polese about the challenges and benefits of learning and teaching multiple languages simultaneously. They discuss strategies to avoid confusion when acquiring several languages at once, touching on grammar and different learning methods.
December 16, 2018 · 1 hr 5 min
Guest
Elisa Polese
What You'll Hear
- 1 Welcome & Elisa's Interpreter Journey
- 2 Elisa's Multilingual Teaching Methods
- 3 Strategies to Avoid Language Confusion
- 4 Elisa's Personal Study & Ad Break
- 5 Master Grammar Through Practical Speaking
- 6 Embrace 'Stupid' Phase, Finish Sentences
- 7 Conferences, Culture, Fluency & Accuracy
Links Mentioned
Questions Covered in the Show
Who is Elisa Polese and what languages does she speak?- 2m
What advice for aspiring language interpreters?- 7m
How to avoid mixing up languages when learning multiple languages simultaneously?- 21m
What are effective language learning strategies for polyglots?- 27m
How to learn grammar in languages with complex systems like Russian or Hungarian?- 35m
What common mistakes do language learners make?- 47m
Related Episodes
See all →Welcome to the actual Fluency Podcast. Each week you'll find inspirational, motivational interviews with some of the world's best language learners, industry experts, all trying to help you to learn foreign languages better, faster, and more efficiently. And here we go. This episode is brought to you by Italki, the world's best tutoring platform. So if you've been struggling to find a tutor online, or if you just want to enhance your language learning, I highly recommend checking out Italki. You can get a $10 free credit after purchasing your first lesson on Italki by going to actualfluency.com/italki. That's I T A L K I.
Hello everyone, and welcome to episode 138 of the actual Fluency Podcast. Today I'm joined by Elisa Polese, who's going to talk to us about learning multiple languages and even teaching multiple languages. So, if you have a teacher who speaks a lot of languages, you might be interested in learning several of them at the same time. And Elisa gets into many ideas of why that's a good idea, but also, how can we avoid getting confused when we're learning multiple languages, because that's something that a lot of people are a little bit worried about when they try to tackle several languages at once. We also get around a few other topics, like grammar and school learning versus modern learning, and it's a very great episode, so I hope you'll enjoy the talk with Lisa, and I'll see you in the next one.
First of all, thank you so much for coming and taking the time to be here with me today. It's really I really appreciate it. And I think I think I've been I don't know if I asked you to be on the show before or we talked about it before at one of the conferences, but I definitely have been thinking about having you on the show for many years. I've seen you at many of the conferences, so I'm I'm really happy that we can make it happen here in uh in episode 138. Um, do you want to start out by give the listeners a little introduction to who you are, where you're from, and what kind of languages you've been working on in your life?
Uh, sure. Thank you very much for inviting me. Um, so my name is Elisa. I I come from Italy. I started learning languages when I was 8, but actually just French. Um, because I went to France and I just uh uh loved the language and uh I decided I would learn French. And this is what I did. At school I had French, and I noticed that I just loved languages, and I went abroad with my parents and I um, I loved the idea to be able to communicate with people.
But I started learning other languages much much later. So, more or less when I went to university. And uh before that I just tried to learn a couple of things on my own, but uh without a real method.
It's difficult without a method. And I'm sure we'll we'll talk about about your method later that that you've come to now. Did you, what languages did you study at university?
At university? So I I um I I studied to be an interpreter. So I studied English and French. And uh but during my university studies I also studied um uh Spanish, Arabic, uh um, Hungarian. And um yeah.
Wow, how how was that in classes or in uh just what how did you study all these languages? Did university offer all of them?
Uh yes. So the ones I mentioned, yes. So I, yeah, I was studying to be an interpreter and there were languages. So I had to pick some languages and other languages were more like a bonus if I wanted to, and of course I wanted to.
You just picked everything everything possible.
Uh I would, no, no, unfortunately no, I I haven't. But yes I also had to study for my for my exam so I didn't have the time to pick everything, but yes my dream would be uh yeah, to go back and study all the languages which were offered.
Yeah, I can understand. So so your dream was going into university to be to be an interpreter.
Yes.
Right. And did you ever did you ever do that?
Yes, yes. I I worked as an interpreter and a translator and I still work partially um as an interpreter and translator. But I love teaching. So it's uh my with the time I understood that I love interpreting and my I like so I'm so happy when I can interpret, but at the same time I love uh helping people and when I interpret, I don't get this feeling, and when I teach, I do. So, it's what I I understood that I just uh um yeah, that I just like it so much.
Yeah, I understand. And uh yeah, interpreting is one of those careers that a lot of people listening to the show are interested in uh it's a very a popular topic. Do you have any tips or advice for people who are say younger and and maybe looking to university and want to do uh interpreting as a full-time career? Is there anything they need to know that's not maybe super obvious if you don't know?
Um, so what I learned afterwards was on one end, uh it would be it really helps if you are someone who can keep calm at any time if you want to to be a simultaneous interpreter, because there would be times where you cannot really control what is going to happen. I mean, uh what I mean is uh uh you don't know what people are going to say and uh yeah you you have to go with the flow and sometimes it can happen that they say things you are not really so you can prepare as much as you want, but you cannot control what kind of words people are going to use. So, um keep calm and uh um this is one thing.
And then, um and then I would say that one thing that I didn't expect at the beginning, although maybe it's uh maybe very obvious so for others is that you're not most of the time you don't work, so you can work with one interpreter next to you according to what kind of interpreting you are doing. But um I don't know, somehow I I didn't think about the fact that it's a more I don't want to say a lonely job, but you normally if you don't work for a company, you you are somewhere on one day and somewhere else on another day. It depends where you work for, so who you work for, but um uh I'm very a very social person. So, I think I prefer if I can uh uh I can really get in contact with people and we can talk about different things and interpreting you are more like a translator of words or meanings or uh um it's also nice because you try you help achieve a goal, you have uh it depends what kind of interpreting you are doing, like mediator or in a simultaneous or different there are different ones. So it's very nice, but uh yeah, if you enjoy too much to be with people, then maybe not a job is better.
Right. I've seen some of the conference interpreters they're stuck in these little booths and and they're just by themselves, so that can be lonely I guess as as well if that's your main focus.
Mhm.
Yeah. But it's interesting it for me it sounds very difficult obviously. Uh it's it's uh a very tricky position. You need to be very good at both languages or I guess even more languages in some cases. Uh so for me it's I was I don't think I could ever do it honestly in any language. It's too too scary.
Uh I don't think it's so sorry. It's true that you have to be very good at both languages or more languages, but it's uh what I think it's uh it's not just knowing a language, but be able to um to yeah, to to translate it in uh in the in the right way um according to so many criteria and rules when, yeah. So this is more difficult. It's not enough to know a language. You really need to learn a bit of a technique or um yeah it's. But anyway, so I cannot say that it is not a challenging job, but I I think it's a very very interesting job. So, anyway, it requires a bit of effort but so many professions do that.
Yeah, of course. It wouldn't be it would be interesting if it was too easy I would say. So so that's good. What what what did you do uh did you do that right after university or did you uh did you have some other language projects in in between and and how is it looking for your language project projects after that? Did you go back and have some projects that you studied uh just for for for the sake of it on your own or did you follow any other like pro programs after that?
Um, so uh my path at university is quite long because I started I have more than one degree because I love studying, I love learning. So I first studied interpreting and translating and then I went I I went to work and I used my languages, but I really wanted to improve other languages. So I went back to university. I studied, so and then um I did another type of interpreting. I did simultaneous interpreting, liaison interpreting and consecutive interpreting plus translation.
And then uh what I did was I studied again. And I studied communication in international organizations. Uh because I decided that I wanted uh to do to be able to do something else, not only interpreting, but also something that I could apply everywhere, like uh uh in a company, let's say. This is why when I study communication in international organizations, I I was very lucky. I could choose most of my exams. So, apart from communication, I studied IT, law, um, economics. So, I was very happy about uh the opportunity to learn different things. I I didn't know before.
Yeah, that's a a big package to have uh lots of languages and then IT, law, and economics. I mean those are the the big topics. So that's a a good package to to choose. And um what what happened next?
Um I uh apart from working, uh so since I was 20, I um so when I was 20, I started teaching and I loved it and I always done it um until now, because I just like it very much. And then what I decided then I I worked and studied again. Um I worked in companies in different roles, let's say. But I also worked um as a teacher, of course, in different countries. And um, um, I decided to study again to and I got a master in teaching and also CELTA, uh so the certificate of Cambridge University to teach English. And uh, yeah.
Right. So those are some good starting points for for teaching and and and is that what you do mainly today?
Uh yes. So I translate, but I also but I mainly teach. I um I teach several languages and um I also teach several languages at the same time according to what students need. Uh so, for example, um what I really liked in these years is that, for example, uh I, I don't know, I I taught Italian in French and French in Russian and Russian in Spanish and German in uh uh in uh uh yeah, so in so many combinations and it was very interesting to be able to talk to so many people from different uh countries. Um and uh yeah.
Yeah, definitely that's the triangulation in a way where you use some a third language to learn a second language or a second language to learn a third language or teach a third language. And what kind of students do you find so so for let's say you're teaching in German, you'd find people would native German as I mean German speakers or would they be like L2, like people who have actually learned German to a high level, who now wants to learn French and you do that or or how does it work?
I'm quite open. I think uh that in uh when you teach adults, you cannot, I don't think it's uh uh so I've I've met teachers who say, okay, this is my method and we only use that. Or I only work in this way. I think you can do maybe, so I don't want to discuss whether it's right or wrong, but you can do it maybe with children. If you're really sure it really works, so you have to teach in a certain way. I don't know. But I think with adults, it doesn't work, because since we are in most cases, we are not obliged to learn languages, we want to, either because it helps can help our career, or because we want to move somewhere or because our partner is coming from another country or because we we want to go on holiday, or we need it for the company. Then I think students have a say in that.
So, for example, when I learn a language, I love learning studying just in that language. Let's say that I want to improve my Greek. Then I prefer when the lesson it's only in Greek. It doesn't matter if I don't understand everything or at the beginning if I don't understand almost anything. It really doesn't because I know that a combination of self-studying plus studying with a teacher, um and being curious about it and being being um you can learn a lot. But at the same time, I understand that in some cases people don't want that. They want they if they feel too um if they don't feel comfortable with that, they shouldn't do it, because it's also like, you cannot learn if you feel in a of uh threat, like, or if you don't feel comfortable. So, and then you have to you if you feel comfortable in that way, actually it's very effective. But if you don't, then I can teach also in um using um like language of instruction can be the language you want. Of course, it should be a language you understand better than the language you want to learn. Right. That makes sense. Yeah.
But I also I I maybe you know, but I also give um classes in different, so like if you let's say that you are interested in Italian but you also want to learn uh French for your work and uh uh Russian because, uh I don't know, you you want to go there on holiday. Then I uh I can help so also being an a simultaneous interpreter, I learn how to um to uh not to get confused, like to not to mix languages up. So, I can help students to switch from one language to another and uh not to mix languages up. This is why then I give multilingual courses in the language, so I teach 13 languages, so and uh uh people can choose the combination they need or they want.
Wow, so I can I can become a student of yours and I can say I want to learn French and Italian. And you will you will you have a program or you'll make a program for me and the other students. Yes. That has this built in sort of.
Yes.
That's amazing. Why why don't more people do this? That that sounds really fantastic.
I'm also writing material, so it will be published soon. Uh for example, the first thing which will be published is a self-study material to learn at the same time French, Italian, Spanish and German.
Wow.
And with uh videos uh or um uh lots of uh audio material and uh uh a bit as if I was teaching you directly. It's not only it's not really it's not an audio course, uh or a video course. It's uh everything together. There is an interactive PDF where embedded you can have audio and uh quizzes where you click and see the answer and then you can also watch videos and so on. So, and uh it has also uh multilingual tips, multilingual units, so that you can also learn how to switch from one language to another.
Wow. And I guess the obvious question on on that is there's there's a lot debate online about how do you learn multiple languages. And some people say that it's very it's not advisable because you mix them up. And some people are saying, no, no, you can do it as long as you set some guidelines and and you do it in a structured way. Um, what what kind of things can people do to themselves? I mean you mentioned before that interpreters have special skills that or or they're taught how to not mix things up. But can you give any examples of of any tips that people can use right now to not mix languages up?
Yes. Sure. Sure. So, um, I think um, so I I think that in general humans human beings do many many different things and they they don't mix them up. Uh the the key is actually to um so maybe it seems obvious, but I don't in my experience, not so many people do it. So, when you want to speak a language, many people say, okay, I'm going to read. Okay, that's great. It really helps you with vocabulary, maybe you feel comfortable and you're not, but if you don't speak, of course, you're not going to be able to speak. Like if I wanted to learn how to drive and then I just read the theory, which is great, but I also need to apply it. And the same thing happens with languages.
So, if you, this is why I think uh learning different languages at the same time, if you speak, for example, with a teacher, it's not the only way, but let's say that you speak with a teacher who knows more languages. And then you can you speak first in one language, then you speak in in a different language and then in a different language and then you switch to the first one, for example. It's already a way um which helps your brain to keep it separated, because on one end, you learn to distinguish them. Like, now it's Italian time. Now it's French time. Of course, you're not going to say all the words so the aim is not to say one word in each language. The work is to be able to have a conversation in one language and be able being able to switch to another language.
So what is important is on one end that language features are clear to you. So what what is really what differentiates Italian and Spanish, let's say. I mean I'm talking about uh similar languages or um because it's where people get uh get most confused. And um so on one end to to concentrate on language differences. Not what is similar, which is very easy for our brain to pick it up. What is different? Why, how can you recognize that the word is Spanish and not Italian? Let's say, uh for example, Italian words never almost never end with a consonant, whereas Spanish words often do, like S at the end for plural. In Italian, you only have vowels most of the time apart from a couple of prepositions. But um, so already it's one tip.
And then if you learn about language features and then you learn uh you concentrate you try to when you learn vocabulary, you can also see how uh words are different and you learn for example in many cases, you just have to switch a for example, let's say that uh "también" in Spanish and then "também" in Portuguese. If you learn how to how they change, then you can apply the same rule to other words. Like in Spanish, you have "juego" and uh in Italian "gioco." So there is often this "hue" "yo" in uh so like "juego," "duermo" and in Italian "dormo," "gioco." So you have patterns. If you learn to recognize them, you can apply to to many more words. And um yeah. But I think the key in general is not to be scared to um to to speak all of them, not at the same time, but um yeah, train the brain to change and switch languages. The way kids do. They speak in a language and then another kid speaks to them in another language. They don't say, sorry, I have to. Yeah, they just do it.
Yeah, it sounds simple, but I don't think a lot of people do this at all, if any. Like you're the first teacher I've heard. I know other people who are who speak a lot of languages who also do teaching, but I haven't even heard them say something like this. So, it might be kind of obvious, but if nobody does it, I would still say it's quite quite amazing actually. Um I definitely want to try this uh when I so in
In uh last last November, I was in Berlin and I at Exponeva. I don't know whether you know it. And I gave a workshop where I I taught at the same time Hindi, Greek and Italian. And I chose on purpose languages that I knew that not many people would speak, because I wanted people to see first that they can speak from day one, actually after one minute, because they can really repeat things, they don't need to know everything to be able to speak. And uh uh and then they can switch and everyone, so almost everyone, I mean, it was like 40 minutes. They can they they could they could switch from one language to another and everyone did that.
That's crazy. It's amazing. And and so just differentiating a little bit from uh the teacher to the student, because I assume you're still busy learning languages yourself. I guess you can't keep you away. Um, what what kind of what kind of strategies do you use yourself as a like how's it different from? Do you try and make your own study in mind the same as your students in your teaching or do you have some other different parts of your method when when it's your own? Like what do you do when you have study time, for instance? What do you work on?
Mhm. So, uh this is a good question. The thing is that I do use uh some of the techniques I use with my students. Actually, many of them. Of course, the only thing is that I don't know many uh I don't multilingual teachers. So, I would be so happy to have a multilingual teachers so that I can practice the languages I really want to practice the ones that I don't speak so much or not so often.
Um and um what I do is, for example, um so I try to find uh time to speak different languages, especially what I tried uh for example, lately for me, in order to practice without having a multilingual teacher, because I couldn't really uh so I couldn't find one. Then I would talk to, uh I talked, I was speaking, for example, in Portuguese and uh a friend of mine was speaking in Spanish. So, I didn't I didn't want to practice Spanish, I wanted to practice Portuguese, and it still worked works, because uh I'm practicing and uh my friend was practicing, so it was perfect. I could still do uh do that and everyone was speaking the language we wanted to practice. For example.
But in general, I I and it doesn't normally the brain doesn't get confused, because uh for example, my friend didn't know any Portuguese at all. So, it just helps uh could you can understand each other although you don't you don't know the the language very well. Anyway, what I wanted to say, which is maybe a bit confusing at this moment, but what I wanted to say is that I I study languages in different ways according to the language I'm studying. I don't study languages 100% in the same way. For example, there are language languages where the pronunciation is more difficult. There are languages where the grammar is more difficult. So, I I focus on what is either more interesting or more difficult for me. And uh I always try to speak them because my aim is to talk to people in those languages, uh but I do a bit of everything. I love grammar, so I study grammar on my own, but I try to practice. And uh I don't normally get uh mix languages up. The languages which are very similar, yes. Sometimes it happened to me, for example, at the beginning between Catalan and Portuguese. Then what I try to do is exactly what I do with my students. I focused on differences and I tried to speak those languages more often, so that my brain would know, okay, now it's Portuguese time. Now it's Catalan.
Right. Make it clear a clear distinction.
Mhm.
We have to take a quick break but we'll be right back. When I started learning Russian four or five years ago, I couldn't really say much, even though I'd learned quite a big vocabulary. I had spent a lot of time on books and flashcards and apps, because I didn't really know what else to do. I thought that language evening classes was were quite inconvenient and they were quite expensive as well. And I didn't really have anyone to talk to in my little town in Denmark. So I was really lacking speaking practice. I don't know why I hesitated for so long to get on board the tutoring wagon, as it were, and start to get regular online tutoring, because obviously the internet has enabled a connectivity that we've never had before.
So when I started to have tutoring lessons in Russian, everything changed. Like I improved so quickly and I went from not being able to say a full sentence probably to actually having one-hour long conversations with my tutor. Okay, they were very basic conversations. They were very, you know, she was very patient and was very slow. But it it all took place on Italki, because they have the biggest selection of tutors. They have great offers where you can like for instance now, if you go and have a lesson, if you use my link actualfluency.com/italki, you get a a $10 free credit. And you can get many tutoring lessons there for less than $10 an hour, so you're essentially just getting a free lesson.
Um the other part is just it's so convenient. You go in, you use the calendar on the site to pick a time that's good for your time zone. And it shows when your teacher is available. And then Italki just does the rest. It sends out the reminders for you and it takes care of the payment as well, so you don't get scammed by some, you know, questionable teachers out there on the internet. I had a lot of tutoring lessons and if any one of you have tried learning Russian, you know that you definitely need it. Um, but it wasn't until way later that I realized just how powerful these tutoring lessons were. And now I totally 100% recommend it. Like if you can't do any other work in a language, if you if you find textbooks boring, or if you find any other method like not your cup of tea, there's nothing that beats the speed of which you learn from a personal one-on-one tutor. And you can find thousands of them on Italki. That's I T A L K I. And like I said, you can get a free $10 credit if you use my link actualfluency.com/italki. And now let's get back to the episode.
Grammar is obviously something that a lot of people struggle with as well. I think sometimes it's because it's it feels like it's far away from what you want to achieve, you know, speaking the language, but obviously some languages you there's so much grammar that you can't really speak without it. Something like Hungarian for instance would be hard for anyone to speak in any way if you don't understand the the grammar system, the the what do you call them? The words at the end, um the
Yeah, post post post okay in uh verb okay word order, but actually in Hungarian what is uh quite peculiar but also in Turkish is postposition. So, you have so many things added at the end of a word. Exactly. Then, yeah, you don't even you cannot even recognize the word anymore if you don't know that the language does that.
Exactly. That's that's why I found Hungarian really hard because when you're doing let's say just doing flashcards or you're trying to learn vocabulary, sometimes it's hard to see if you is this a new word or is it some kind of, you know, uh conjugated version of a an already existing word? And what forms do you learn anyway when you have 50 different endings you can add to a word, it's very tricky. I I how did you find it? Did you study it at university as well? How did they attack it in the in the curriculum there?
Uh, so I would say more than in in so if you want to understand the I can answer the question about the university. But uh what I think in general that languages where grammar is very difficult or more complicated or just different from your mother tongue, what I think is that what I always do is to learn structures, because structures uh are like things that you can um use um change in a couple of words and still be able to say so much. For example, I don't know. Um so, my suggestion in general, actually, may I talk about Russian for a second because it's also quite a complicated language for.
Oh yeah, please. That's that's also one of my my target languages. So, yeah. Okay. So, for example, in Russian, uh you If you learn certain uh things, then you can apply the same rule, the same pattern, the same uh idea to so many other either verbs or words or um and then um for example, I don't teach Russian in the very classical way. I would I want people to be able to speak from day one. So, I don't want to start just with letters and then after months, people can read and then no. For me, people, especially with languages with a scary alphabet, when I say scary, I mean just different. And um or where, yeah. I think speaking from the very beginning and applying, for example, in Russian past tense is not difficult at all. What is difficult, okay, are aspects of the verb. Uh but the past tense is very easy. Most times, you just add "л" for masculine, for example. And then you can already say "я делал," so okay, I'm talking like a man, okay, because I said just "л" it's for men. "Я делал," "я" um "я ел," and so on. So, you can already say so many things without being fluent in the language, and I think it's great. It gives you uh motivation, you can already start talking to people. And um yeah.
So, I the same for me is for Hungarian. I I wouldn't study like in the classical way. When I say that I love grammar, I love understanding how languages work. But then I try to teach or to learn in a way it makes sense to me. Sure. So, I don't want to start in the classical way, like uh one word and then and then plural and then the exceptions. I think I I want to learn vocabulary which is relevant to me and to what I want to say, to my life, to my hobbies, because it's what you talk about at the beginning, and uh or what you talk about normally when you meet someone. And then I uh and then add the new things. So, I call it a bit like a linear way of learning. You know, one layer and then the other, you go back and then add new uh structures, new uh things. But uh the everything is connected. The language is a structure, is a system anyway.
Yeah, and it's context, isn't it? Uh with the grammar heavy uh languages, if you can learn their context of each ending or how conjugation, then you're not really bothering so much about the rule itself, you're more seeing it in in practice and applying it. You don't necessarily need to know why it is like that if you just have that pattern or or um experience in your in your head.
Yeah, so, uh maybe in some cases it's important to understand, so, at some point in languages like uh Russian or German, it's important to understand about cases. But of course, it's it's much more interesting to understand it in practice instead of just in theory. So, if you say many sentences using, let's say, accusative, at some point you understand why you use it and how you use it. Much better than just um than just reading a book. So, this is why I think speaking is so important, because your brain uh so there are two ways there is passive and active learning. And uh active is by speaking or so by producing. So, either speaking or writing. And uh since most people don't like writing anyway, then it's much better to speak and then you have fun, you can talk to people, you can see that you can actually communicate and they can talk to you. I think it's uh it's a very nice way to apply grammar.
So, normally when I teach, I I I teach a structure that you can use and then we use it in conversations that you can apply straight away. It's not like uh I don't want students to go home or just to switch off the computer and not be able to use what what we went through. I think it's very important to to see that whatever you learn, you can already apply it. And if you cannot apply it, it's because you don't need it, actually.
Right. And that's kind of the old-fashioned way of of teaching where you're building this foundation that will some day be useful once you've learned a lot. Yes. Which is so it's it's so strange that we now school system have this opposite focus or at least, I mean, I know I've heard stories of some good teachers out there and some maybe it's different from country to country as well, but most of the people I know had just, you know, just basically vocabulary learning and just maybe reading, but no actual conversation or very limited anyway. Yes. Um so you end up with this, I mean, I guess it's better than nothing, but you end up with this level where you can you can probably read and understand a lot, but when it comes to actual production, you're just absolutely hopeless because you've never done it. And that goes back to what you said in the beginning of, how do you how do you learn multiple languages? You said, well, you just need to practice them together or, you know, in a context of each other. Because if you learn Spanish for one day and then Italian for one day, you're not really teaching the brain how to do it at the same time. So, of course, you get confused and it seems simple, but I haven't heard it before either. So, that's quite that's quite nice.
Mhm.
Um. What languages do you uh are you are you studying languages at the moment?
Yes, so well, uh always, I would say, but that's a very weak uh term. What I what I have is I've uh English, Spanish and German pretty well. My my spoken German and my German grammar is still terrible. Uh I just guess many of the endings, but I guess it's kind of a flexible language in that the the endings aren't 100% critical for understanding. So, I've reached a level where I'm happy with the what I can do with it.
And then I've I've studied Russian for a couple of years, but never really broke through. Um I'm starting to go back into lessons now to try and help me speak better, because I my vocabulary is doing really well. I I feel like I have a good grip on the grammar now. Um, but that so that's my main focus, but I'm also uh you know, working full-time. I also just moved countries. So, it's kind of a low priority project, but I I'm starting to get into I'm just now this week doing some Italki lessons again. Trying to find some teachers that uh kind of apply to what I want to achieve and mainly mainly conversational practice really. And I try to watch vlogs on YouTube where people speak very naturally to uh to try and improve that.
But um but I lived in Hungary for a year and a half as well, so I did study some Hungarian. But in some part, I always knew I was not going to live there forever. So, it was a very low effort, but I do love the language and I I have a feeling I will get back to it later on, because it's very unique and I really like the sound of it as well. So, Yes. So, those are kind of the languages and of course, French and Spanish, you know, kind of you can almost read it without ever studying I feel like if you know some of the other languages and I I I always feel guilty for for not having studied that more. I I had a bit of French in school. So, pronunciation and understanding is is pretty good for a complete beginner, but I haven't actually ever studied it.
And then of course, Swedish and Norwegian. Well, that's just like my native language, so I can speak and understand them. Well, I can understand them 99%, but speaking is weird because I'm not I'm never sure when I speak Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish, because you have to guess every time. So, is this a Swedish word? Is this a Norwegian word? I'm not sure. And uh you kind of scroll through the options, but I I work in an office with Swedish and Norwegian colleagues. So, I try to uh whenever possible to try and and learn more and obviously when they speak, I can understand everything because it's the pretty much the same language. But we have all these differences that can be quite tricky to to get right to and that's why I say I don't speak them. I I just I know them very well. So, that's that's it. Ah, interesting. Oh, that's a lot. That's very interesting.
Yeah, it's it's fun and uh I definitely want to my focus is uh is more of improving what I've already started. I I could go do more French or Spanish or Italian even or even an Asian language, which is something I always been thinking about as well, but for now I think with everything else that's going on, I would just like to improve the languages that I know and for me that's just speaking more and practicing more for my maybe even starting to do some writing. I know you said people never write and I'm definitely no exception. So, I would like to write more just to maybe practice some of those concepts and get better at it, because that's the only way, right? We we practice to get better.
Yes. So, I yeah, I think I I think it's more because when you want to if you want to talk to friends, you want to be quick and you want to make jokes. So, you're not going to use if your level is not good enough, you're going to switch maybe to English. And if you want to write, you don't yeah, you want to be able to express yourself. I think adults are used to be able to express themselves and when they cannot, they get frustrated, of course. And then, yeah, I think we forgot that in order to learn something, we have to go through a phase where we feel stupid. Yeah. Yeah, and it's just a phase. It's just like don't give up, keep trying and at some point you say, oh, but I can speak the language. Actually, as I said, I think you can already speak from the beginning, but I mean, of course, it takes time. But I mean, as adults we forgot that I think most people forgot that that in order to learn something, so it's a process. You do it and then you get a bit better and then a bit better and at some point you're very happy about what you know. So yeah.
Yeah, hopefully. And um uh obviously going to the the conferences and and meetups is is a good way to find multilinguals uh who can where you can practice in multiple languages. Is is that your primary ambition for for going to the conferences? I I've seen you a couple of times at at the events and and you've also spoken, had some interesting talks there. But um, but that's maybe a tip for people who if they can't find, you know, somebody who speaks three or four languages to practice with, because obviously that's a good way to practice the mixing up as well is to just mix them mix them up in the same conversation. Um, so yeah, that's uh that's a good place to go I feel like for for that kind. You can definitely find some interesting people to talk to in in many languages at these events.
Yeah. So, yeah. So, normally I don't go to conferences because I want to speak the languages. I go there because I'm so happy that I can find other people who love languages. Then the consequence of it is that then we end up speaking different languages. But for me, the main focus of why I learn languages or why I go there is the connection with people and I love so I I like so much that I can find other people who are um in love with languages as I am. It's the very nice uh thing that where you can share your passion with other people. And uh yeah, you can also uh find other people who want to practice the same languages as you want and then uh yeah, you can uh yeah, I think it's a good place. So for sure there, if you want to, so no one obliged you to speak in another language, but if you want to, it's a very good place where you can switch from one language to another.
Yeah, it's there's no pressure for sure. that that's a good point to emphasize. Because some people do feel when they read about the event, it's like, oh, I only know English and Spanish. People are going to make fun of me or say say I'm stupid or something. No, that that's so far from the truth. I I think I've gone some of these conferences speaking only English because there's so many of my friends that I've gotten to know over the years that I only see at these events. And so for us it's more important to catch up and what's been going on instead of speaking in our, let's say, third or fourth language. Even though that happens, of course, as well. Um, and I would say I'm probably more happy when people come to me and speak in Danish, because that's kind of unusual that people learn this language. So, when people come up to me and and speak Danish, that's that's always good fun. And I'll always try to be patient and and listen to people as they try their difficult pronunciation that we have, you know, with the
I know, I know.
Yeah, you you you've looked into it as well.
Yes, I I looked into so many languages. I love to understand how languages work and uh um and also helps me to understand, for example, what could be difficult for people. For example, I don't know. Even if I don't know a language so well, uh I already if I studied it for a while, I already know it, for example, let's say that uh yeah, I know what kind of difficulties could a person of native speaker of that language have learning a different language. And I think it really helps. I can understand where, yeah, where problems could arise and I can help in advance or, yeah. So, it's
Can you give some examples of maybe for different languages what people generally struggle with or maybe what native speakers of certain languages maybe struggle with in general? Just some ideas, uh
Mhm. For example, the usage of the verb to travel in Italian is different from the way you would use it in English. So, you can have a one-to-one translation, like to travel "viaggiare." But we don't know we never say uh I travel I travel to, I don't know, the UK. Or I travel to. Normally, when we say "viaggiare," we use it as a general thing, like I like traveling. "Mi piace viaggiare." Or, for example, um I travel a lot. "Viaggio molto," "viaggio spesso," something like that. So, we don't use it with a specific reference to a place. I already know that I have to uh to talk about that because normally, when we say, I I went somewhere or I traveled to a certain place, we normally use either the verb to go, "andare," or uh "partire." But then we need a different preposition. "Partire per l'Italia," "partire per la Spagna," or uh just very, very often, we just say, "Sono andata in Italia," "sono andata in Spagna." And uh this is so, if I know it in advance, I already know that it's something that I can already automatically explain so that people know that there is a different uh difference, for example.
Or for pronunciation, uh something else, for example, um yeah. Um in or, for example, if they make a mistake while, I know their language and I know where it comes from, so I know that maybe it's just a translation of what they would say in their native language. And I know whether it can be a recurrent mistake or a just a random mistake. So, of course, I'm not I don't think all mistakes should be corrected. I think it's important to understand whether it's just because you are nervous in that moment, you're being nervous, or just because it's something that you understood in the wrong way. And of course, in the second case, I try to help, in the first one is not like an exam, I don't want people to get stressed.
Yeah, it's better to speak and have a a fluid conversation that just goes on as long as the understanding is not lost, then you can correct it if it comes up again and again. For for teachers out there, that's probably a good point to to write down uh that I definitely feel like if somebody corrects everything every mistake I make, that, you know, I can't really have a conversation like that, so that doesn't work. But but if there are really serious mistakes that actually mean that, okay, I don't understand what you're saying even, then then maybe just say, uh, can you say that in another way? Or what do you mean when you say this? Or something like that.
Or, uh, so, I, yeah, I normally I think it's very important to correct the communicative mistakes. Like maybe the the sentence is completely normal. But, for example, let's say, another, another example, something that actually I always say is that, in Italy, normally, when you say, ah, sorry, I uh, so, do you want to come to my party tomorrow? In Italy, uh, we never say just, no.
Right.
Sorry, I can't and that's it. We always give a reason. So, it's not really just a language, but it's also the culture. Uh, if you want to be invited again, you should give a reason. It doesn't matter how, uh, I don't know, how you don't, yeah, like, sorry, I had to work, sorry, I'm not free today. But, uh, really not say anything, it's culturally not so nice. It's just like, I can't and I don't care. This is the message, actually. So, and, um, and then this thing is much more important than, uh, a couple of gram grammatical mistakes. Uh, grammar mistake. And the mistakes. And the other, yes, and the other thing is that I think many people forget, uh, that there is a difference between accuracy and fluency.
In a sense that, um, when when we speak, we cannot focus, uh, on both things at the same time, especially at the beginning. So, either we speak fluently or we try to achieve fluency. And in that case, the teacher cannot say all the time, ah, it's not correct. It's not correct. I mean, how can you achieve fluency if you cannot even finish your sentence? At the same time, there will be phases where where your aim is accuracy, maybe to improve a certain things or a certain structure or, uh, in that case, yes, because the focus is accuracy, but it cannot be accuracy for one hour. Your your brain cannot work in that way. Yeah. So, I think, um, and actually there are people who want to be corrected all the time. I think if your level is really high, then, uh, for example, I don't mind to be corrected all the time if my level is very high, because I, otherwise, I will never get rid of those small things that, uh, but if my level is a one, there is no point in correcting every single word because I don't even know the grammar behind it.
Yeah, there's too much just to get started. It's better to focus on the big wins and just keeping that fluency or attempting to be more fluent conversation and just encourage, which I think is also something that goes missing sometimes. Yes, very important. Yes. If you speak from day one or that's kind of like the Michel Thomas approach as well. Just get people speaking from minute one and actually get them it sounds like what you're doing as well, you get them almost you almost impress the students with how quickly they can actually form a useful sentence. And then they're really excited and they're like, whoa, of course, they they might hit that a bit of a plateau quite quick and then it's a little bit harder, of course, but getting them excited to begin with must be a big priority for for a teacher, right?
Yes. I think it's very important. Uh for example, myself, I get motivated by my progress. If I don't see any progress, I will stop. So, of course, you have to see that you can do it. The thing is that many people think, uh, I wasn't good at school, so I cannot, I'm not good at languages. I don't believe that it's that people are not good at languages. I think either the method was not right or the moment was not right. But anyone can learn languages. Languages are not like, uh, the the example that I like to make, because I don't understand anything about it is like, it's not a quantum physics. Right. So, I don't understand and in order to to to to study, I uh, to study quantum physics, I have to study so many other things that by the time I can study that, then I will have studied math and many other basic, in a sense of easy, but basic things. And, uh, language with languages, you can start straight away. You don't need to uh, to, uh, there are even ways to to to learn certain things which are already advanced, but taught in a certain way that you can already use them from the very beginning.
Uh, but, uh, so, for example, I was thinking about, uh, if you want to learn one verb and all the persons and all the exceptions, you never you cannot do it. But if you want to say, okay, I want to learn how to say, for example, uh, I don't know, if I had more time, I would study more. I mean, okay, it's not the easiest thing to learn, but you can, you can, is a structure which is almost is constructed almost in the same way all the time. So, you just change a couple of words. If I had time, if I had money, if I had something else. So, you just want word, you you learn, you learn a structure and then you can already say many more things than you think, uh, was possible.
Yeah, and I would say also the what I realized about that particular challenge of let's say you have something you'd like to say, if you use your native language or whatever, then it can be a really good exercise to try and uh really simplify it. Because, um this is why I actually, I would encourage people to spend a weekend or something on Toki Pona, because the language itself, I would find mostly useless. I mean, there's no real practical use. But in terms of helping you learn languages, I think it's a great use of time because what it does it it it really helps you to believe to understand that everything we say is an is is a translation of our thoughts. So, when I say something in English, what I'm really doing is I'm taking a thought I have and I'm putting words to it. So, I'm not really it's not a direct, you know, thought to word because you can't speak that fast anyway.
But for Toki Pona, what I learned was that you have to simplify everything so much. So, for instance, when you say goodbye, for instance, in Toki Pona, it's just I'm leaving. I leave. You know? And it's it's it's a beautiful concept because what I was doing in Russian, I was doing like, okay, I have this English sentence in my head, how do I say it in Russian? And of course that's impossible. For for first of all, my level in English is infinitely higher than my Russian, so the sentences are more likely to be complicated. But also they're two completely different ways of speaking. Like they speak it's such a different language. Okay, you can maybe do it with, you know, French and Spanish, Italian, they have kind of similar structures in some cases, so maybe that's easier. But for me, it's all about taking that sentence and really boiling it down to the absolute bare minimum. What are you trying to say really? And if you can't say it as you thought it up, then try and just go deeper and say, what is what is the actual meaning? Like, uh instead of saying, um, could I could you show me where the toilet is? You know, you can really simplify that down to to where toilet basically if you want to speak like Tarzan, right? Um, but that that really helped me.
And then smile. Maybe smile. If you don't know "please," you can still smile or try to to make you understand that you are grateful for an answer. So, it's
Exactly, you can use body language, non-verbal communication and and for for Russian as well, I think that I use a lot of, I try to speak around it in a way and I ask what is that mean? How do you say that? And even if I have to put in the English word, like how do you say English word? I would still say that's a big improvement over not speaking at all. So, so I'm okay with that and that's goes back to what you said about we have to be stupid for a phase, because obviously you can't learn a language in a week or overnight. So, accepting that we'll be sounding a little bit silly for a while is also important.
Mhm. Yeah, I so I never met uh like uh we feel stupid, but we don't understand that other people will not think the same. So, it's not an exam. We feel we feel it as if it was an exam. But uh normally in real life, what people want to do when they talk to each other is understand each other or to achieve a common goal, which is which can be also understand understand each other. So, and there are certain things which are much more important than just getting everything right. So, if you um, let's say that I was talking to someone and who's language was a bit like broken, and for me, if the person shows interest in talking, like, to me or about a certain topic, or if the person seems motivated, is much more important than getting everything correctly. Yeah, right.
And uh and for example, the other thing is that when people, uh, and what you said about simplifying is really is really true, because uh, sometimes we just we we sometimes people feel frustrated because they cannot express themselves in the same way as they can do in their native language. But actually, simplifying is good. People can understand you, uh, you can communicate, you can still reach an of course, if you want to be an interpreter, it's not, uh, it's not enough. But, uh, I mean, not everyone wants to do that. So, or to arrive there, to get there, you still need to go to through other phases, so which is also okay. And um simplifying is great.
And the other thing I really would uh uh suggest people, you know, I always do suggest my students to do that, is finish your sentences. Because many people are afraid to make mistakes, so they start a sentence and then they um they don't continue. And, uh, since speaking or talking to someone has a communicative purpose, if I finish my sentence, but not everything is correct, you can still understand me. I'm sure I made some mistakes while speaking today. So, the thing is you could still understand me, because I finished my sentences. If I don't finish my sentences, you have no idea what the other person wants to say. So, you cannot even help and help to um you know, for example, it has happened to you for sure, if someone was trying to speak Danish with you, they didn't know a word, but if they pronounce it, uh, in the wrong way or if they still said something, you said, ah, do you mean, mhm? Exactly. That's it. And then communication goes on. It doesn't matter. You don't have to know all the words. You cannot start speaking once you've learned the whole vocabulary.
And then, uh, you can still as you said, you can say, or the way I went when I learned German. I didn't know everything, but then I tried in a certain way and then I said, uh, how do you say that, "wie sagst du das?" Or "wie sagt man das?" And so on. So, I would still try to use German, as you said for you do for Russian, but, uh, do it whatever I could. And if you finish your sentences, people can help you. If if they have interest in talking to you, of course. I mean, uh, hopefully. Yeah. What I mean is that some let's imagine that, um, uh, that I don't know, you talk to someone on the street and that you don't know each other. Maybe the person doesn't have one hour to talk to you, but it doesn't matter. if you're talking to someone let's say at a party, and you have a feeling that you can understand each other well, but the language, uh, is, uh, so, doesn't know, so it's a bit difficult for one of you, then you can still communicate and, uh, uh, you can still understand each other and have real fun. I I think it happened to you that you didn't speak a language, but you could still laugh and have great fun, although your level was not C1 or C2, I guess.
Yeah, definitely. I I've uh I've recorded some of my first Russian tutoring lessons in the first year and I'm I'm thinking about that that's quite a long time ago now, it feels kind of uh time flies. Uh and for me it's just natural to do that. So, even if I didn't speak that very well, I would still make try to make some some jokes or something just to make it fun. I mean they're very simple, right? But for me, that's important as well that you you carry on your personality into what you're trying to do in the new language, even though you don't you maybe you don't have a sophisticated way of of of doing it. There are ways that you can uh I would say infer it, you know, uh Like when uh when people ask me in Russian if I speak Russian, I say, I certainly try to. You know? It's a very simple one to do. or they ask me how many languages do you speak? And I'm like, I don't know if I speak any of them. Because it's it's always hard to define, uh especially as we mentioned with the Swedish and Norwegian. Can I say that I speak Swedish just because I know some words, but I can understand everything that's being said. I would not say so. So, it's quite it's quite complicated anyway.
But, um, but it's it's been a blast to talk to you today. And and I think that this is part of the reason why I love doing this podcast as well, is there's so many new um, uh, ideas that come out of every single episode. And and I'm I'm really grateful that you took the time today to come on and share some of your ideas, uh, about teaching and learning languages. Um, just as a final note, where can people find out more about you and and if people want to maybe uh, get some teaching from you, where where do you have any availability or any practical information people should know if if they want to start learning some some languages from you?
Uh sure. So, first of all, thank you very much for inviting me. It has been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much. And people can find me on my website, uh which is uh www. uh speakfromdayone with Elisa.com. And uh uh you can also find me on Facebook and Instagram. Uh with the same name. Uh and uh um yeah. So, and there you can also find soon, like I said, in the next month, you will you are going to find lots of multilingual material if you want to more on something like either to study on your own or a video course or something like that. So, podcast and so on.
Fantastic. I'm looking forward to it. I think we're really you're really uh helping to make a big development in the in the polyglot world, because I think people are waking up to the idea of learning multiple languages at once and the and the power of it. And this is just kind of the beginning of the whole movement. You know, it's what is it? 10, 15 years ago since uh since we heard about uh maybe not even, probably less. So, uh so it's really exciting to see all this stuff coming out now and I think it's going to be a game changer really, so I'll definitely be looking out for that personally.
Mhm.
Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your time. And uh look forward to seeing you around the world. We'll be in Bratislava for for the gathering next time.
Of course. Yeah. See you there then.
See you there then. Definitely. good evening.
You too. Bye. Bye.
Bye. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the actual Fluency Podcast. I really appreciate having you here today. Just before you leave, I just want to give a quick shout out to today's sponsor, which is Italki. Italki is the tutoring platform where you can find affordable tutors for every language in the world, pretty much. So, get started today and get a free $10 credit when you book your first lesson. If you go to actualfluency.com/italki. That's spelled I T A L K I. So, give it a go and feel how tutoring can really boost and enhance your language learning.