Lucas Bighetti: The silent method and parrot conversation
Kris Broholm welcomes Lucas Bighetti, who shares his journey from failing languages in school to becoming a passionate learner. Lucas explains how a joke Russian textbook sparked his interest. They discuss his unique "silent method" and the "parrot conversation" technique for language acquisition.
December 23, 2018 · 1 hr 13 min
EP 139: Lucas Bighetti: The silent method and parrot conversation
0:00 / 1:12:30
Guest
Lucas Bighetti
What You'll Hear
- 1 Podcast Intro: Lucas's Surprising Language Journey Start
- 2 Lucas's Groundbreaking 'Two-Way Chat' Russian Method
- 3 Optimizing Methods: Navigating Thai's Unique Cultural Grammar
- 4 Why Thailand? Lucas's Language Quest (Sponsor)
- 5 From Mnemonics to Anki: Evolving Language Learning Tools
- 6 Introducing The 'Silent Method': Maximize Speaking Output
- 7 Silent Method Efficiency: High Word Gain, Focused Practice
Links Mentioned
Questions Covered in the Show
What was Lucas Bugatti's initial method for learning Russian?- 8m
What is the most challenging aspect of learning Thai for Lucas Bugatti?- 26m
What motivated Lucas Bugatti to continuously optimize his language learning methods?- 34m
How does Lucas Bugatti's 'Silent Method' work for language learning?- 41m
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Welcome to the Actual Fluency Podcast. Each week, you'll find inspirational motivational interviews with some of the world's best language learners, industry experts, all trying to help you to learn foreign languages better, faster, and more efficiently. And here we go.
This episode is brought to you by iTalki, the world's best tutoring platform. So if you've been struggling to find a tutor online, or if you just want to enhance your language learning, I highly recommend checking out iTalki. You can get a $10 free credit after purchasing your first lesson on iTalki by going to actualfluency.com/italki, that's I T A L K I.
Well, Lucas, it's finally time. Thank you for coming on the Actual Fluency Podcast. I remember meeting you a couple of years ago in Berlin. You might not remember, but we were in the bar in Berlin and it was a good fun. Um, but I was very impressed with your quick acquisition of languages. So, I'm really interested to hear more about your method and techniques today.
But before we get into all that stuff, do you want to just give the listeners a quick introduction of who you are, where you're from, and how you got started learning languages?
Sure. Thank, thanks, Kris. Uh, well, first of all, thanks for having me here. Uh, my name is Lucas Bugatti. I'm from, I'm originally from Brazil, São Paulo. Uh, well, but I haven't been to Brazil for almost three years. I've been, I've been traveling a little bit.
Um, so my language journey, uh, I think, well, every, everything started, uh, about 20 years ago when I started studying, uh, English at school. In Brazil, we, we had, uh, English and Spanish. And, uh, well, but I, I must admit that I completely failed both of these languages. Uh, when I, when I finished high school, I couldn't speak a word of English. I, I think at that time, I couldn't even say, uh, sorry, I don't understand.
Um, and, um, and then after high school, well, actually, still at high school, um, a friend of mine, like, uh, one of my classmates, he gave me a, a Russian textbook. And this, this was actually a joke. In Brazil, we have, uh, a tradition, uh, we, we give, uh, each other gifts that we know that, that, uh, the person would not like. And because they, they knew that I hated foreign languages, they decided to give me a, not just an English textbook, but a Russian textbook, that was even worse.
But you know, like, I saw those crazy letters, uh, because at the time, they, they made zero sense to me, right like that, I mean, the, the Cyrillic alphabet. I looked, I looked at the, at the textbook, I, well, I, I had to, had to laugh. Um, but, but then I, I just put, uh, the textbook in my, in my backpack, and then I forgot about it.
But then I went home, um, I opened my backpack, and then I saw the, the textbook. And I thought, you know what, let's, let's Google this, this, uh, crazy letters. So, obviously, I had to Google it in Portuguese, because I still couldn't, couldn't speak English. And, um, and then I found a web, I, I found a website, uh, where you could, uh, learn, uh, the alphabet. And, uh, on that website, it was, uh, there was an advertisement, uh, for a website called ShareTalk. Maybe, maybe you know this, uh, this website.
Share, was that the stones, uh, exchange service?
Right, yes. I, I don't think, uh, it exists anymore.
No, they shut it down, yeah.
They shut it down, right. Yeah, but, well, it used, this is how it, it actually started, now. This is how it, uh, I, I started studying languages. So, I found this website, and then I, yeah, there were so many people there, like, from, from, from basically, basically, from all countries in, in, in the world. I, yeah, yeah, there were Russians, Australians, Japanese, Italian, yeah, you name it.
And, uh, and I really wanted to talk to those people. Um, since I was a child, I was, I've always been fascinated by different, different countries. Uh, and I really, really wanted to, to talk to them, but, um, I couldn't, because I, I didn't speak any, any foreign language.
And then, I had this crazy idea. I, I started talking to, I started chatting with two people at the same time. They were both Russians. And this is what I did. Um, I would say, let's, let's say, I would say, "Hi, how are you?" I would, I would send it to one person. And then, I would, uh, wait for the answer. And then I would send it to the second person that I was talking to. You know what I mean? So they were basically talking to each other.
That's amazing.
And, uh, and then I would, uh, use Google Translate to, to understand what they were saying. So, let's say, like, person A says, "Hi, how are you?" And then I send it to person, uh, B. Person B responds, "I'm fine, thank you. And you?" Then I send it back to person A. Right. So, basically, yeah, they were basically, um, talking to each other.
And, I think I did it for around three, four months, uh, every day. And then I noticed, I noticed that after three, four months, I didn't need to, to translate, uh, I didn't, I didn't need to use, uh, Google Translate anymore. I could understand what they were saying. So, instead of sending the message, um, to the other person, I would try to answer myself.
And, um, you know, because the, the questions, uh, were always the same, like, um, where are you from? Um, how are you doing? Um, how is the weather? Is it cold? Um, so, uh, I started, I started seeing patterns. Um, and these patterns were repeating over and over again. And then I, I started, uh, answering, uh, those questions, uh, by myself.
And then, and then after around five, well, actually six, six months, I was brave enough to actually call one of my friends. Uh, and, um, and then we had a nice chat, um, I think it was like a, a 20, 20-minute chat in, in Russian. And, uh, when I finished the conversation, I thought, whoa, wait a minute. So, I have been studying, and, you know, it was not, it, it never felt like studying, because, uh, I was not using, uh, a textbook or, or anything like that. I was not studying the grammar. I was, I was just like, uh, sending these messages back and forth.
And, uh, and then I saw, well, so I have been now, uh, learning Russian for six months, and I can now hold a conversation for 20, 20 minutes. That's amazing. Um, it, it probably means that when I was at school, I couldn't learn languages not because I'm stupid, as, as my, my, my teacher used to say, but because the methods were very inefficient.
And, uh, yeah, and then I thought, well, if using this very primitive method, I managed to start speaking Russian only after six months, what if I optimize this method? Could I learn, could I start speaking, let's say, German in three months? And then I started, uh, studying German. And, well, this is, I, and, and I have been asking my, uh, myself the question, well, can I, can I optimize, uh, this method? I think I've been asking myself, uh, this question now for 10 years. And, uh, well, over the last 10 years, I've been optimizing the methods I use to, to learn languages.
So, what kind of changes or additions have you made to sending the mirror messages across?
Well, I think that was the beginning. I don't, I would never recommend people to do that. Uh, I don't think it's very effective. Uh, as I said, it was just like a very primitive, uh, primitive method.
Uh, but, I think it taught me a very important lesson. Um, when learning a language, it's not enough to just understand. You really need a lot of repetition to get things, uh, up to the point when you don't have to think about it anymore, like, it's, um, it's automatic.
And when I was saying, sending this, uh, messages back and forth, because I was talking, uh, to many, many, many people about the same things, I was repeating the same patterns over and over again. So, when I started answering the questions by myself, yeah, it was, uh, hey, so, what's your name? My name is Lucas. Hey, what's your name? My name is Lucas. Hey, what's your name? My name is Lucas. So, after, after a while, I didn't have to think about it, about it anymore. I could say these things, uh, quickly without thinking about the grammar. Yeah.
Uh, and also with more complicated. Obviously, uh, what's your name is very easy. But I could easily say things like, uh, "Now I live, I, I'm from Brazil. I've, I'm, well, born and raised in Brazil. Uh, and now I live in São Paulo. But I would like to live in Moscow." For example. And because I said it so many times, I didn't have to think about, wow, now I'm using the, the prepositional case. And, well, the word Moscow ends in A. And because of that, I need to replace the A with "ye", so Moscow "ve". So I, you know, I didn't have to think about these things because I was repeating the same patterns over and over and over and over and over again.
Yeah, that's a really amazing idea as well. Also, I think a an added bonus of that is that the people you're talking to don't adapt their language. So, it would be a very natural way. Like, sometimes if, if the other side of the conversation knows that you're a beginner or you just start learning, they might use very primitive language themselves, which means that you don't really learn, well, it might be good in the beginning, but, you know.
You know, actually what, what, what you're saying is very true. And, uh, actually, I, I'm, I'm facing this problem now. Um, I'm in, yeah, I'm, I am in Thailand now. And, uh, sometimes, well, I've been, I have been studying Thai now for, um, seven weeks. And obviously, my Thai is not great. But I can, well, I can speak some Thai, uh, some, some Thai, like, very basic Thai.
Um, and when people realize that I'm, I am a beginner, they start using simple Thai. And sometimes their, their simple Thai is even harder to understand than normal Thai, if you know, if you know what I mean.
Yeah, because you've been studying the normal Thai and listening to that probably, so.
Plus, on, on top of that, sometimes if, if they see that I don't understand, they will translate into English. Uh, yeah. But most of the time, their English is not very good. And then what they say in English sounds like a Thai word. And then, and then I think, well, I have never, I have never seen this, this, this word before. And then, after a while, uh, I don't know, a few seconds, oh, actually, he's speaking, he's speaking English. Oh, okay.
Yeah. I get that at the office sometimes, because we have, we have a Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish colleagues next to each other. So, sometimes we speak in our own language. Sometimes we speak English together. Sometimes we speak an adapted version.
And you get that kind of interaction sometimes where, sorry, I thought you were speaking in English there, and you just don't understand anything of what the person just said, even though you speak the same language kind of.
Right.
So, I can definitely see.
So, it, it, it does happen to you as well, right? If, if you don't know the person's going to, to speak a certain language, then you, kind of, block that language.
Yeah, your brain is not ready for it at all. It, it just, and even if it, if it's a very, really hard tonal language where you really need to pick up the subtleties, then your brain is just like, okay, have to listen for the Thai, have to listen for the Thai.
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly what's happened.
Yeah.
Just one, one fun fact. Like, here in Thailand, uh, almost everyone has a, has a nickname. Like, Thai people, they, they usually have a nickname. And, uh, their nicknames, uh, are in English.
Oh.
Even, you know, because I know that in, in countries like China, uh, people will normally, if, if they have a lot of foreign friends, they will normally have, uh, an easy-to-pronounce name, uh, so that, uh, so that Western, Westerns can, uh, learn their names. But here in Thailand, is a, is like, a local thing, it's like a, a local, uh, culture.
And, I remember, like, when I tried to speak Thai for the first time, I met a Thai guy and, and I asked, so, uh, what's your name? And, well, I said that in Thai, uh, "Kun-cheu aray?" And then he said, well, and, and then I was expecting to hear, uh, a very strange Thai name. I'm sorry, I, a very strange, uh, a very, uh, uh, well, I, I was expecting to, to hear something Thai, right? Yeah. And, uh, and then he said, um, game. And I say, "Game, what do you mean?" And then he started showing me with his hands, like, you know, like, as if he was, uh, playing a game.
Oh, yeah.
I said, no, no, but what do you mean? Like, I'm asking, uh, and then, and then I thought that I had asked the wrong question. So, I, I, I tried to repeat the question. No, actually, uh, what I mean is, uh, what's your name? He, "Yeah, yeah, my name is Game." Yeah, it was, uh, very, very confusing.
Very unknown foreign word there.
Yeah. And, you know, and, and I have a friend here, uh, her name is, uh, Wasana, but her nickname is Mai. And, and the thing is, Mai, means no. Mai, is the, is a question particle. Make, yes, yes, no questions. I think it's like similar to Chinese, right? Like, "ma", and then in Thai, "mai". And then, new means, uh, in, in, new in Thai is "mai". And then her name is Mai.
That's very confusing. Yeah.
Yeah, it's super confusing. Yeah, super confusing.
But the tones are otherwise not causing you too much trouble.
Uh, I think this is not the hardest aspect of Thai.
Okay.
It's not easy, but I don't think it's the, the hardest aspect of learning a language like Thai.
What, what is the hardest in, what is the hardest thing then?
I think that, uh, the culture. Like, the way they say things is, is, uh, very different and very, yeah, you, um, you don't expect, like, um, one, one, the, the way, the way they phrase things is, uh, very, very different.
Right, they use a lot of idioms or phrases or things like that.
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, um, sometimes they will drop words that would, that you would never think they would drop. Sometimes they add words, and these words are there just to emphasize.
And, um, yeah, you, you know, people say that Thai grammar is very easy. Yeah, but it's, it's not true. You know, uh, well, it is true that they don't have, they don't conjugate verbs, and they don't, they don't have, uh, noun cases like in languages like Russian, or, well, basically, all, uh, Slavic languages. But, you know, they have so many, so many, like, little words that have to put here and there. And, um, so many fixed structures.
Yeah.
That have, yeah, that you have to learn. So, you know, it's not, people, some people even say, yeah, Thai has no grammar. Yeah, it's.
Yeah.
It's, it's not true at all.
Right. So, you've got a bit of a challenge on your hands in.
Yeah, yeah, it's a big challenge. Yeah, for sure.
Fantastic. Um, can you give a, uh.
But I'm, I am enjoying. I.
Did you, why did you go to Thailand, again? Was it just a trip out of the blue, or some sun in the winter? What, what did you have any?
Yeah, so, last year, um, actually, two years ago, um, I spent the winter in Serbia. And it was really, really cold. It was like minus 20. All the time, like, well, for, for a month. Like, minus 20, minus 25. And then, um, and then I, I went to Bulgaria. And then on the way back, I think it was minus 22 that day. And, uh, the heating system in the train was not working. So, can you imagine like, uh,
Wow.
Taking a, yeah, a ride for seven hours, no heating system. And, you know, I even, I, like, I bought a, a bottle of water. Yeah, after, I don't know, maybe 20 minutes, it was all ice.
Wow.
So, I,
Yeah, minus 2 is no joke. That's very cold.
That, that day, I promised myself, okay, next year, I will, I'm going to spend the winter, uh, somewhere, uh, you know, like in a tropical country. And, and I didn't want to go back to Brazil. Um, because going back to Brazil means, to me, at least, means not being able to practice languages.
Yeah.
So, um, I thought, well, maybe Thailand. And, uh, and then I came to Thailand. Yeah, I'm in Thailand. I, I really, really liked it. And, um, yeah, now I'm back to actually spend some more time, time here.
Cool. We have to take a quick break, but we'll be right back.
When I started learning Russian four or five years ago, I couldn't really say much, even though I'd learned quite a bit vocabulary. I had spent a lot of time on books and flashcards and apps. Because I didn't really know what else to do. I thought that language even classes was, were quite inconvenient and they were quite expensive as well. And I didn't really have anyone to talk to in my little town in Denmark. So, I was really lacking speaking practice.
I don't know why I hesitated for so long to get on board the tutoring wagon, as it were, and start to get regular online tutoring, because obviously, the internet has enabled a connectivity that we've never had before. So, when I started to have tutoring lessons in Russian, everything changed. Like, the, I improved so quickly, and I went from not being able to say a full sentence, probably, to actually having one-hour long conversations with my tutor. Okay, they were very basic conversations. They were very, you know, she was very patient, and it was very slow.
But it, it all took place on iTalki because they have the biggest selection of tutors. They have great offers where you can, like, for instance, now, if you go and have a lesson, if you use my link, actualfluency.com/italki, you get a $10 free credit. And you can get many tutoring lessons there for less than $10 an hour. So, you're, you're essentially just getting a free lesson.
The other part is just, it's so convenient. You go in, you use the calendar on the site to pick a time that's good for your time zone. And it shows when your teacher is available. And then iTalki just does the rest. It sends out the reminders for you, and it takes care of the payment as well. So, you don't get scammed by some, you know, questionable teachers out there on the internet.
I had a lot of tutoring lessons, and if any one of you have tried learning Russian, you know that you definitely need it. Um, but it wasn't until way later that I realized just how powerful these tutoring lessons were. And now I totally, 100% recommend it. Like, if you can't do any other work in a language, if you, if you find textbooks boring, or if you find any other method, like, not your cup of tea, the, there's nothing that beats the speed of which you learn from a personal one-on-one tutor. And you can find thousands of them on iTalki. That's I T A L K I. And like I said, you can get a free $10 credit if you use my link, actualfluency.com/italki. And now, let's get back to the episode.
And, uh, could you give an idea on, on how many languages have you been working on since, since you started, uh, was it 10 years ago, you said, uh, the first part of the story, uh, because I've seen your badge and it, it, there was a lot of flags on there. So, I don't remember exactly how, you probably had a few more since, since Berlin a couple of years ago as well.
Nine years ago, uh, I started with, with Russian, when I, when I got the textbook. And, uh, well, there are no materials to learn Russian, well, nowadays there are. But at the time, there were no materials to learn Russian in, in Portuguese. So, I had to, to study English as well. Uh, so I was studying English and Russian at the same time.
Um, and then, uh, after six months, when I, when I had the, like, the first real conversation in, in Russian, uh, and then I decided to, uh, to, well, basically, look for other methods, uh, and try to apply them to, to studying new languages. I started studying, uh, German. Then I studied French. Um, then, uh, I think it was Norwegian, if I'm not mistaken. And I think after that, I, I basically started studying multiple languages at the same time, because I was always looking for, uh, new methods and strategies, and every time I, I found, I found something new, I really wanted to, um, to try it out with a new language, with, like, with a brand new language, to see how, how fast I would be able to, to start speaking, uh, that language.
Was that, was that part of your, I mean, it sounds like you're being competitive in a way with yourself to try and see how, how good you can make that method and how effective you can spend your time. Would, is that how you feel about it?
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, 100%. I think this is, uh, uh, one of the main, uh, factors, or one of the main motivations I have, uh, to learn, to learn languages, to really understand how, not only me, but people in general can, uh, acquire languages, uh, faster.
You know, because, uh, when I realized that, actually, I, I could not learn languages at school, not because of, as I said before, not because I was stupid, but because the methods were, uh, inefficient. And then I thought, well, uh, now I do speak Russian. I mean, I can hold a 20-minute conversation in Russian. Um, it took me six months to, to get to this level. I'm pretty sure that if I adjust the method a little bit, I can do it faster. You know, and so that, that was always the, this was always the, uh, the thought heading in my mind, oh, what if, what if I change, uh, what if I optimize the method? Can I, can I learn, can I learn faster? Um, yeah.
Just keep going and, and like you said before, you, you talked about moving away from this like mirror conversation into something new. So, so what, how's it looking in 2018 now with Thai? What are you doing differently than you did, you did, uh, or didn't do nine years ago?
Right. Well, uh, can I, can I, can I answer what I was doing, uh, three years ago and then,
Oh, yeah, yeah, please. Take us through the development. That, that would be interesting as well, to see how you kind of evolved the process.
Right. So, uh, okay, so, let, let's, okay, let's start from the beginning. So, in the beginning, I was just, um, uh, using this method of basically, um, having two native speakers, uh, talk to each other. Um, then I started experimenting a little bit with mnemonics. And, um, to be honest, I don't like to use mnemonics very, uh, very much because, um, I find it very difficult to come up with, uh, crazy stories, uh, like vivid stories. So, I usually don't do it to memorize new vocabulary.
Um, then I started using methods like SML, uh, Teach Yourself, um, Linguaphone, um, and so many others. Um, then I started using flashcards. Um, and in the beginning, uh, I would just write the, the flashcards by, by hand. Then around four years ago, I, I found out about Anki, which is a, I'm a big fan of Anki. But in, in the beginning, um, I found it very difficult to, to memorize vocabulary using Anki because, and, and now I understand why it was so difficult, uh, I was basically memorizing words without any context. So, word and then, and then translation, with no audio.
Um, then I realized that actually, having audio is very, very, very important to, uh, to memorize new, new vocabulary using Anki. So, I, I started using, uh, audio as well. Um, then I, around two years ago, I came up with a new method called the Silent Method. And, well, uh, the Silent Method is, is actually very simple. So, imagine that you're having a, a lesson, let's say, uh, on iTalki, for example. Uh, one hour lesson. Um, if you use the Silent Method, your teacher will not open his mouth during the entire lesson.
Okay.
So, this is how it works. So, this is how it works. I know it's a little bit extreme, but, uh, but I, you know, okay, so, let me give you some background information before I, actually, explain how it works. So, I realized that, um, it was quite easy, uh, for me to practice listening, because I could just watch, uh, videos on, on YouTube.
Um, and, well, writing was also not, uh, a problem, because I, I could, uh, basically, look up words, uh, and, and see how, how they're spelled. Uh, and I always felt that my, my big, my biggest problem was to actually put up, put, put sentences together, to build up sentences.
And, um, I, it was always very frustrating to me that, like, in, in a lesson, if, if you're having a lesson with a native speaker, obviously, they speak the language much, much better than you. So, usually, in the lessons, my teachers would speak, let's say, 90% of the time, or maybe 80% of the time.
Yeah.
While I was trying to catch up, like, I was trying to understand what they were, uh, what they were saying. And then I would, um, try to give my two cents. Um, but I, I would always try to, uh, simplify everything I was trying to say because, uh, I didn't want them to switch back, uh, to English. So, I would just simplify what I, what I wanted to say.
And, it, it, well, it did work. And, well, this is actually the method I use when I'm not, not having a lesson. Uh, I do simplify what I, what I'm trying to, especially if I am a beginner, let's say, like, with, with Thai now. When I'm having a conversation with a native, with a native speaker, I usually don't say exactly what I, what I want to say. I, I say what I, what I can say.
But when having a lesson, uh, I didn't just want to, um, simplify what I want to say. I, I actually wanted to learn, uh, the words, uh, that I would normally use, uh, if I knew how to say what I, what I actually want to say. And, uh, and this is why I, I came up with this, with this method.
So, this is how it works. Imagine that you have a Google spreadsheet. Um, and you have two columns. So, you have a column for, uh, keywords, and you have another column for sentences. For example, sentences. Uh, then the teacher will, uh, ask a question. Uh, well, he, he will actually just type the question. For example, uh, Kris, what did you do today? Or what did you do, uh, last week? And, and now you, well, and obviously, uh, the teacher will write the question in, in, in the language that you are, that you are studying.
And, and, and now, all you have to do is not only answer the question, but then, uh, try to, to create a very long monologue. So, it looks something, it looks more or less like this. So, imagine that the teacher asked, um, let's say, I'm, I'm having a Thai lesson. My teacher wrote, uh, Lucas, how long have you been studying Thai? And then I will start, uh, answering the question like this, um, "I, I started, started Thai, uh, started studying Thai, um, around, uh, seven, eight weeks ago. Uh, and I find Thai very difficult. Um, I'm struggling a lot with the tones. I also find, uh, the script very difficult, because there are no spaces between words."
Right.
Uh, but I will not give up. I will continue studying. Um, I like Thai very much. Uh, because, uh, I not only like the language, but I also like the country. So, you see, now, here I'm already changing the topic. I'm not really answering the question anymore. I'm now moving to, uh, a new topic. But then I will just keep talking. And, uh, well, I really like living in, in, in Thailand. Um, because the weather here is, is great. Um, the people are very friendly. Food is good and cheap. So, you know, I will just keep talking and talking and talking and talking.
Hmm.
Uh, and obviously, I don't know many of these words that I just said in English. Like, for example, I don't know how you say "cost of living" in Thai.
Right.
So, um, I, I will make, I will build up the sentence in Thai, like, using, uh, Thai grammar. But the words that I don't know in, in Thai, I will just say them in English.
Okay.
While my teacher, um, types all these words that I, I, I don't know in, in Thai. Uh, so, I think this solves the problem of, uh, interrupting the, the flow of the conversation to, uh, to ask, oh, sorry, how do you say "cost of living" in Thai? You know, like, you know, when, when you do that, you, um, it's very difficult to get back to the, the, to the, well, to the train of thought, right? Like, that, that thing that you're trying to, to say.
Yeah, I understand that, yeah.
So, um, like, during the lessons, I will just, uh, keep talking and talking and talking. And the words that I, I don't know, I just say them in English.
Mm-hmm.
And because I can see, uh, what they're typing, um, normally what I'm, uh, what I do is, I say, let's, let's say, for example, in Thai, I will say, in Thai, "I like to live in Thailand," in, let's say, Thai is, "Pom chop, uh, pom chop you prated Thai." Uh, because, so, "I like to live in Thailand because," and then I will say in English, "the cost of living here is very low."
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, I will see the, uh, and then it will type the, the equivalent sentence in Thai. I will see how, how you actually say that in Thai. And then I will, I will repeat, uh, what they, what they wrote.
Okay.
And then I will keep going. And, yes, the cost of living here is, is, is very low. Uh, but food is great. Uh, the people are very, very friendly. They're always smiling. Um, the weather is great. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So, you're patching the language in a way. Like, you're filling in the gaps that you want to use, but you just don't know that bit yet. You haven't gotten to it yet. So, you say everything you can.
The what typically happens with a tutoring session is that if you can't, if there's a word or a turn of phrase you can't say, you normally don't say the sentence at all, or most of it. So, so that's, that's quite, quite an interesting idea as well, and I think something.
And, you know, because my, my teacher is not, yeah, I know that it sounds a little bit crazy what I'm going to say now, but because my teacher is not allowed to speak, uh, it gives me, uh, more freedom to, to try, to try, uh, to say, uh, things that I would never dare to say in a normal conversation. Like, I will try to really say what I, what I really want to say. Whereas when I'm having a conversation on the street with a, with a friend, yeah, then I will never, I will never say, "I like to live in Thailand because the cost of living is, is low." I will just say, "I like to live here because it's, it's cheap to live here." Uh,
Yeah. And then it's also another problem as well with, uh, teachers. I've recently started doing some more lessons, and, and what I find is that I'm, especially if you're a sort of high beginner or intermediate even, you find that you start to have the conversation more for the pleasure of the conversation.
And when you have to sort of have a nice conversation where the other person is not going to be bored or, you know, you, if it's a teacher, of course, they have to listen to you. You know, that's what they pay, what you pay them for. But, uh, I find it difficult personally to take a long time with every sentence, because, um, yeah, there are some things you don't know, but there are also sometimes where you, it's almost there. So, if you just spend like 20 seconds, you will get it. But, uh, but you can't do that if you're having a normal teacher-student conversation. You need them to basically shut up until you get there.
Yeah, yeah, you see, you see, so, this is, this is how I got to this method, because, uh, when I had lessons when, uh, in, in which they, they could talk, uh, I would feel, I, I would normally feel very nervous to finish my sentence as quickly as possible so that they also can, uh, say, uh, something.
Yeah, exactly. But now, I, I don't worry at all, because now I know that I can take my time, I can, I can think about it. I can, you know, I can, uh, I don't feel the pressure anymore.
Yeah.
And have you, have you had, it might be a weird question, but have you had teachers who just didn't, couldn't do it, or didn't want to do it? Maybe it was too, I mean, it's kind of hardcore for the teacher just to sit and listen. So, uh, have you.
Uh, yeah, yeah, for the teacher, yeah, it is, it is true. Yeah. But, uh, no push back yet.
Uh, no, because, uh, I, I think that after one or two lessons, they, they understand the value of the method and they, and they like, they, they understand what I'm trying to do.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll definitely try that out for sure. That that's, that's a pretty good idea, because I was getting a little bit annoyed with myself, because it just takes me, maybe it's because I'm, I'm, I'm not, uh, like, I, I get, I start work at 7:00 in the morning and I'm a bit of a night owl, so I never get enough sleep, basically.
Um, so my brain is always a bit fuzzy. And, and when you're trying to find Russian grammar endings, it can be a bit tricky. Or, you know, you'll get there eventually. It's just slow. So, sometimes I just feel like saying something, even though I know if I spent 10 more seconds per sentence, which in a conversation is a ridiculous amount of time. Like, you can't spend 10 seconds per sentence. Uh, but if I did spend that, then I would probably get to the right answer. And there would be no need for the teacher to interrupt me. So, so that's, that's solves a little personal problem for me there, which is interesting. I'm going to give that a try for, for the next tutoring lessons for sure.
Cool. Yeah, and, and I, and then the cool thing is that they, if they can write down, uh, these new words and these, these new grammar structures, yeah, then you can always review them, uh, review them, uh, them later, which I think is much more effective than just getting corrected.
Like, for example, if, if it's a just normal conversation, and let's say like you're learning Russian, and, uh, you say, uh, "Ya zhivu v Sobratu." And then your teacher said, "No, it's Sobratom." You don't remember that ever. Yeah, after five, after five seconds, you'll have forgotten. Especially because, you know, so, yeah, and this is, this is also, uh, I think that I, I noticed.
Um, learning a language is, uh, it's a difficult task. Or, or, let me, let me rephrase it. Uh, learning how to, to have a conversation in a foreign language is a difficult task because you are dealing with many, many problems at the same time. You're dealing with pronunciation, you're dealing with new words that you don't know, you're dealing with, uh, uh, what, the grammar. And, uh, and then you, obviously, at the same time, you still have to think about what you want to say. Uh, and then you have to understand what the other person is saying. So, there, there are so many things going on at the same time. And then if they start correcting you, you also have to pay attention to the corrections. And then you like, you have to, uh, shift your focus onto, uh, um, the corrections. Uh, and I think, and this is basically multitasking. And, as you know, we are not very good at multitasking. And this, this is why I like, like when I have a lesson, to me, like these, these lessons are just like speak, speaking practice. It's not even having a conversation practice. It's really just speaking practice. So, it's just output. I would just try to, just, just say.
Yeah, do you imagine, do you imagine the conversation or, or is it more of a, the reason I ask is because if you're in a conversation, then you have that natural scripts, uh, pattern, like, you talked about before, what's your name, where are you from, where do you live here. If you're just speaking on yourself, do you sometimes, uh, do more of like a, a presentation really, or do you imagine what the questions could be, or do, does the teacher write every question? How, how do you make it past that first, like, uh, you said there was a one question, a seeding question, but how do you move it past that, uh, so it's not just, you know, presenting a paper like you were in the, in school again and, and, uh, standing in front of the class, you know?
Right, right. Well, to be honest, I don't think too much about it. So, I just need a reference, like, I need a starting point. Let's say, uh, Lucas, why do you, why do you learn Thai? And then I will start, uh, well, in the beginning, I will answer the question, but then I will, yeah, I just say whatever comes to mind. And then when I run out, uh, when I run out of things to say, which is usually, like, for example, with Thai, uh, after five minutes, I don't, I'm, I'm done. Yeah, and then, I will just keep silent, silent for, I don't know, like, 10 seconds. And then, and then the teacher will realize, oh, maybe I could ask, uh, uh, the next question.
Right, in writing still.
Yeah, and then, yeah, and then they type the, they type the, the, the next question.
Very nice.
And, uh, you know, because they cannot speak, because they cannot speak, they also don't make comments.
Right.
So, uh,
You don't get confused.
Uh, yeah, yeah, I don't get confused. And, uh, yeah, and then I, yeah, I can make sure that I, I speak 99% of the time, of, of the lesson.
Perfect.
Because, you know, if, if I want to get listening practice, I can, I can just watch a, a video on YouTube, you know, I don't need to.
Yeah, that's, that's right.
A lesson with, uh, with my teacher.
Yeah, that's, that's very true. You, you want to be efficient in that sense. To me, that's a bit like, um, I mean, I don't know if you do this, but some people, they change their languages on their phones and stuff. To me, I'd rather just do focus sessions or, like, do whatever it takes. I, I don't need to know the Russian word for, uh, I don't know, uh, some technical forum term or something. Uh, like, that's not, that's not interesting for me, anyway. Uh, but, is, it sounds like you, you're very focused on the, the efficiency and doing things at the right time. And then, and then with friends, you can have conversations where it's a more normal conversation. And, and if you, if you have patient friends and you're good enough in the language, then that can be where you get your actual conversational practice and, and improvements later on.
Right, right. This is exactly, uh, what I, what I also think about it. Yeah.
Cool. Well, that, that's, that's really cool. Uh, I'm, I'm still amazed. I just have to comment on this. I, I think I say it pretty much every episode now, but this is 138 episodes. I've had people on who's learned every language in the world, probably, at this point. And, and yet, still, every episode, something new comes up. I find it just amazing.
Uh, like last episode, just as a, as a reference, uh, somebody was talking about the value of, um, having a polyglot teacher. So, somebody teaching you multiple languages at once. And I was like, sounds simple, and I'm sure other people have, it's not a groundbreaking idea, but I can't remember having discussed this on the podcast before. And now this is, is similar, where I've never heard anyone talk about a, a silent lesson. Like, where the teacher's just listening to you. Uh, so, so, so thank you for, for sharing that idea. That's pretty cool.
You know, um, and it is so efficient because, uh, you're basically, uh, speaking and speaking and speaking and speaking. I, I normally get 200 new words per lesson.
Wow. Yeah, that's a lot.
Yeah.
And the teacher's just like.
Yeah, typing on the, typing. You have to learn the, the quick type system for sure for if you're going to be a teacher there. So, yeah.
So, yeah, like the good teacher for me is the teacher that can, uh, type very quickly.
Yeah.
That's a great quality. Um, and, uh, yeah. And, you know, just, just one last thing. Because they cannot, uh, they, they cannot speak, um, it also prevents you to asking them questions, because if you ask them questions, yeah, then they will be the one, uh,
They start talking, yeah. And then you're listening practice again.
Yeah, and then it's listening practice. Yeah.
Ah, yeah, yeah, that's so clever. Um, but I, I didn't even think about that. I was thinking, well, if I'm asking the teacher questions, I'm, I'm practicing, uh, having a conversation. But, of course, it's pointless if you can't produce good enough language yourself to listen to someone. You might as well just go on, watch a, a sitcom or something, or even YouTube videos, I think, are, are quite good for that as well.
Uh, so, um, so, I, I probably, I would say that one is unlikely. But I'll definitely be in, in Bratislava and and hope to see what else I can make. I want to get back on, on the events next year. I didn't have time to do barely any this year. So, um, I, I feel kind of sad about that. I think they're good way to keep motivated and, and stay in touch with friends and, of course, learning new tips and tricks and, and practice languages as well.
Right, right. Yeah, but I really hope to see you, to see you in Bratislava. I will, I will also try to come.
Fantastic, Lucas. Well, uh, good night and, uh, see you, see you soon.
Uh, Kris, how do you say "thank you" in, in Danish?
Tak. Mange tak.
Tak. Mange tak. Mange tak. Uh, please, mange tak.
Likewise, ligeledes.
All right. Good night.
Good night.
Good night.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Actual Fluency Podcast. I really appreciate having you here today. Just before you leave, I just want to give a quick shout-out to today's sponsor, which is iTalki. iTalki is a tutoring platform where you can find affordable tutors for every language in the world, pretty much. So, get started today and get a free $10 credit when you book your first lesson. If you go to actualfluency.com/italki, and that's spelled I T A L K I. So, give it a go and feel how tutoring can really boost and enhance your language learning.