Sonja Lang: Toki Pona, Conlanging and the meaning of life

On this episode of the Actual Fluency podcast, I'm joined by Tokipona creator, Sonja Lang, and we talk about how it is to create a con language, and the meaning of life.

I'm great, Kris. How are you?

Fantastic. It's so exciting to talk to you and we're definitely going to get into Tokipona, obviously, but before we get into the the Tokipona top topic, I just like to uh, to go back and talk to talk about you for a second, because uh, obviously a lot of people know who you are now that you have come to the Berlin Gathering and published the book. But, maybe take a step back and talk about how you got started with languages. How did your fascination start in any language history you might have had in in the past?

Sure. Um, well, I grew up in a part of Canada, uh, called New Brunswick, which is officially bilingual. It's uh, it's like one of the few parts of Canada where people actually speak French and English side by side in the same city. Um, and I grew up in a family where I spoke to my father in English and spoke to my mother in French. Um, so from a young age, I was always kind of aware that there were many languages out there and and different, uh, you know, different ways of connecting with people and different ways of thinking and different cultures, uh, and I think that that's what made my curiosity, uh, begin.

Cool. And and did you start, what was your first sort of language outside English and French you got into?

In high school, um, I had the chance to study Spanish, and, uh, that was very interesting to me. And, uh, also in high school, I started studying Esperanto, uh, which is also a constructed language, and I was, I was fairly young, I was probably like 15 or 16 when I became fluent in Esperanto.

Fantastic. And obviously that's that's possibly what led into the the conlanging fascinating later on?

I think so, yeah. I mean, it's, uh, it's funny because when I had heard about Esperanto, it was kind of like a joke, like people were saying like, oh, there's this language, that's the world language, but nobody speaks it. And I was like, oh, I I I have to learn this language now just just to like make jokes about it. But then I realized, oh, actually, people, people actually speak Esperanto. Like people actually go and travel and know like there's a connection, there's a community of people who travel with it and uh, like it's strange. Like when you explore these different, these different worlds, these different communities, like, uh, there it's alive. Like there's people who do this thing, you know?

Yes, like a subculture, I feel, almost, Esperanto.

It's true. Yeah.

You see that at the, uh, like at the Berlin Gathering, we were both at, there were so many Esperanto speakers there, and, uh, obviously, the event itself was based on a lot of Esperanto concepts. So, I I guess that was a place where you could maybe practice the old Esperanto a bit?

Exactly, yeah.

Ah, great. So, you moved on from Esperanto in high school.

And, uh, in the, in university, I got interested in sort of classics. Like I I originally wanted to study like ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs in in university. Um, but then I I found a place that had Latin, and I was like, okay, that's good, you know, good classics, the foundation, you know. Uh, so I did Latin for a year and German.

Mm.

And that's when I started like going like into more exotic languages and exploring like Finnish and Chinese and sign languages and things like that.

Incredible. So you just you were just kind of going into it for the, uh, kind of the exoticness of the languages?

Exactly, yeah. And and as a kind of a challenge, you know, because it's, uh, when you learn a language that's related to your own language, you know, uh, like in your case, Danish and, you know, maybe German or Danish and Norwegian, like, you know, there's so many words that are similar, the structure is similar, like it's, uh, I I wanted to really kind of like, uh, challenge myself and almost like an anthropological adventure, you know, go into like a different, you know, like a different time zone and a different country, a different world, you know.

Yeah. So what what what kind of realizations or maybe surprises did you did you come to when you were exploring Finnish and and Chinese, these very different languages from your own?

Um, it's hard to answer. I mean, I I, I think for me, it was just like the the the, it was kind of like an intellectual curiosity, like I just wanted to see how language had had had grown and how, I mean, it's difficult it's difficult to separate language from culture, from civilization, from, you know, from beliefs and religions and history and, uh, you know, identity. Like all these things are like very closely interconnected. So, it's, um, it's, I don't know, it's it's the key to the humanities, in my opinion.

Yeah, to understand a a human soul is through the language, isn't it? So.

Yeah.

Perfect. And, uh, and so you you you got a degree in German and what was the other one?

Um, yeah, my my degree was in German and French. So, kind of like like the literature linguistics, uh, um, that kind of thing. Um, and, uh, I mean that was like what I was doing by day, and then by night I was kind of just studying other languages and experimenting and poking at things and taking things apart and trying to invent new languages and.

Well, I think a lot of people, um, I think a lot of people have have that same kind of way of life where they study something at university, it could be linguistics, and then they go home and they study, you know, ancient Greek or, uh, some some other obscure language. So, it it's funny to talk to to these people. I I met a lot of them in Berlin as well. I mean, I I find it really fascinating that again, the subculture of wanting to know more than what is readily available. Um, but that's when you started experimenting with creating your own? Is that when it started already?

I think so, yeah. I mean, when I was, um, I don't remember what age, maybe I was like maybe, uh, in my older teenage years, I I had invented a language called the Ubenr, which was kind of just like, I think it was influenced from, uh, Dadaism. Uh, there was, um, I think he was German, uh, Kurt Schwitters who like made all these weird sound poems with like bizarre sounds that, you know, just throwing strange sounds together because when you think about it, you know, like the languages we speak, they use like certain parts of the tongue and certain parts of the, you know, our anatomy in certain ways. But, like, you know, you can explore and you can find like new sounds and new new, uh, new combinations and patterns and, uh, so I think I, yeah, I was kind of inspired by like a lot of this kind of, uh, Dada sound poetry stuff, and, uh, I was just putting together sounds for fun. Um, and, you know, like, uh, language is a combination of sounds, but also like ways of structuring your thoughts. So, it was sort of like a self-exploration type thing as well.

All right. So you use it as a kind of a way of exploring your own kind of being?

Exactly, yeah.

That that's pretty deep. But that's a good thing, of course. And that that you can kind of use you can make something of your own that helps you. I find that very strong. And I'm sure we'll get into that in a minute when we get to to Tokipona as well. Um, but what what did you do just to to to kind of wrap up your own personal story when you left university with your degree? Did you go into traditional kind of, uh, working with the languages in maybe translating or communication in in that kind of sense, or did you go totally different?

A little bit, yeah. I mean, I worked, uh, for a communications agency for a few years, uh, doing like translation and working with media, like monitoring media and things like that. Um, and, uh, eventually I went and worked for government, uh, where various levels of government in Canada and, uh, just like in Europe, like there's official languages and sometimes documents need to be available in in many languages. So, that's, you know, that requires translators, but not only translators, it requires people to kind of coordinate, you know, the the projects and and, you know, like sort of project manager type people and coordinators and, uh, you know, this kind of stuff.

Great. And and you you you said, um, we talked briefly before the interview, and you said that your language learning was on a bit of a, what would you call it, a hiatus, maybe? Um, it was a bit of a a low priority for you right now. Is that something you're bringing back soon, or?

I think so, yeah. I I think so. I think there's a period, like I'm, I'm 35 right now, and like there's a period, like when you're a student, you have sort of like the opportunity to be more creative and wild and and and try things, you know, and I think when you reach like, uh, I don't know, there's like a stage in adulthood where you're like priority becomes like, oh, I need to have a good job and I need to have money and, you know, all that kind of dream stuff. Kind of.

Grown up stuff.

Yeah, grown up stuff, you know. You got to you got to you got to be responsible. So, like that, you know, put like, I mean, some of my hobbies, I guess, I had to put on, you know, as on a lower priority, right? So.

So, you you want to maybe come back to that after you've been after you've established your life, you want to come back and maybe revive some of that?

It's true. Yeah. Um, I mean, another opportunity I should mention that I I'm really grateful to to grateful about is, um, I guess it's connected to Esperanto as well, but, um, there was, uh, there was like some projects where, um, the Council of Europe was holding seminars, and it was between two groups. It was like an Esperanto youth group and, um, a youth group that was involved with, um, uh, like alternative, like, uh, basically, alcohol-free lifestyle, where people like choose not to drink and still have fun.

It sounds fun.

Yeah, that's like really fun.

It it does sound exciting. I talked to a a guy called Robert who's also at the Berlin, he's a, he's a kind of a full-time in in that field, or used to be anyway. And and he also says it's it's a lot of fun, and he would do it, you know, he speaks like 10 languages or something and does interpreting in four. So it it it sounds exciting, definitely, to be, I guess you're in the action, it's happening now. You're not sitting with a piece of paper and old speech or something, you can just kind of doze off at, but it's happening now. You have to respond. Again, the, um, I guess the stimulation, the intellectual challenge is is again, what's drawing you there, isn't it?

Yeah. And you have to be like, you have to be fast, and you have to be prepared for any topic, right? Like, I mean, if they're, you know, if the top if the conference if people are talking about like whatever project management, or if they're talking about environmental science, or if they're talking about like whatever the topic has to be, like you have to know the language and you have to know the words for that in that field, right? So, it's it's uh, it's, I don't know, it's fun. It's uh.

A lot of vocabulary is required.

Yeah, exactly. And and you have to have it quick, you know, like because sometimes I'm there's many languages that I've studied that if you told me like, okay, like read, you know, read this ancient text and you have all day, and I can be like, okay, no problem. I can, you know, I've got dictionaries, I've got tools. I can take my time and do it properly, but when you're like live, you have to be prepared, you know, you have to be, you have to roll with it.

You're on the spot.

Exactly.

Um, speaking of on the spot, uh, you were at the, uh, the Berlin Gathering, you're doing a talk on Conlanging.

Yeah.

And how did you find the the conference overall? Did you enjoy hanging out there and talking to people?

Yeah, it was really great. Um, like I knew the organizers, uh, Judith and Chuck, from sort of like the my Esperanto years back in the day when I was living in Europe, and, uh, they're still active, and I mean, I have a lot of respect for people who, you know, who organize conferences because it's easy to just show up as a as a participant and, you know, but the people do the hard work to, you know, organize and make, you know, make sure that the the the money adds up and, uh, you know, people are registered and all that stuff. So.

Excellent. And, uh, obviously, there were, um, there was a Tokipona talk at the conference as well. So the buzz was definitely in the room, I could I could tell. It's probably the busiest, uh, talk in that room with the TV crew there as well. The the film students were in there as well. And and poor Kris, uh, he's my good friend. Um, he must have felt a little bit, uh, pressure, you know, having the the creator of the language in the room, and then, you know, 100 people crammed into such a small space and the TV camera and a huge microphone. But, um, but rumor has it he did very well. So, hopefully.

Yeah, he did he did perfect. I mean, he he did much better than I could ever do. I mean, that's, uh, it's it's strange. Like I was like, because people, they initially approached me, and they said, why don't you like Sonja give a talk about Tokipona, your language that you made? And I was like, no, no, I don't want to because it's strange, but it's like, for me, I never made Tokipona with the intention of like it being out there like for the world. It was just like my own private little thing that I did as part of my creative process. Um, you know, just like an artist might be just writing on paper for fun and and, you know, exploring themselves and sort of personal personal therapy or personal trying to understand the world, uh, but, uh, I guess, you know, the fact that it's the language is out there, people are using it, people are finding it interesting, uh, it means that it has a a certain value. So, I have to I guess I I have to accept that. I'm still struggling with that.

Right. Well, that's that's great. I guess I guess, um, I guess we can't really, uh, postpone talking about it anymore. We're so close that we're almost, uh, at the fence. But let's let's go back to to creating Tokipona. Like, sure. Um, you're already I already said it was a minimalist constructed language, and you already just gave a little introduction. But if you had sort of, let's say, 30 seconds in a in an elevator or a lift, depending on what country you're in, um, to kind of give the advantages or kind of the like, the, um, the unique selling point of Tokipona, what what how would you use those 30 seconds?

Um, it's basically a pidgin. I mean, like, you know, when people from different cultures, different, uh, you know, civilizations, uh, come together, uh, then they have to communicate, uh, you want to focus on the simple things that everyone has in common. So, uh, in the case of Tokipona, uh, one of my sort of goals was to make a language with 120 words. So, very few words and with with with those core words, you can express everything. Um, that was the challenge.

Right. How did you arrive at 120?

I, um, at first, I didn't have any specific number. I was just trying to simplify concepts in my head. Uh, so, I mean, an example that I use is like in there's no word for teaching, for example, but there's a word for knowledge, and there's a word for giving. So, a teacher is a person who gives knowledge.

Right. But so you so what you're saying is you didn't you didn't start with one word and then two and then three and so on. You actually started with, let's say, a full working English vocabulary, and then you just said, well, this is really not needed. This is redundant. This is no longer needed. And then you had 120 left.

Yeah, basically, yeah. And I mean, it's it's close.

Because I would start the other way. Ridiculously enough, but I I'm not, you know, a conlanger, but.

And and for me, I mean, the the language was kind of like a a therapeutic kind of process. Like I was, um, like I think I was going through depression, and I was like trying to understand like, you know, what is life, what is, you know, what are these deep things? Like, you know, why do we do this or what it like? Um, so, you know, in in this process, I was trying to let go of the extra things, you know, like what you were saying, what is redundant, right? Um, you know, like, uh, we we were talking a bit, uh, in Berlin, there was, um, the author of another book who, uh, who said that he he travels and he has like a certain limited number of kilograms that he just carries with him, right? And it's, uh, sometimes you have to simplify your life, you know, and you have to purify and just let go of things that are not helping you and that you're just holding on to.

Yeah. I mean, I find this really, uh, amazing. I I told you this as well, um, that but the only, uh, the only question I had with with that regard, and I I'll repeat now and I I'll invite you to repeat your answer as well, because I really liked it. Um, basically, my my question was that if you're trying to find the meaning of life, in which is the headline on your website, or the official website, um, isn't it, shouldn't it, the meaning of life be incredibly complex, as in, you know, why is the language you use to find the meaning of life very simple?

That's a good question. I mean, and of course, you the reality is there's no one answer, right? I mean, if you ask like a, you know, like a theoretical particle physicist physics expert, you know, what's the meaning of life? And he'll, you know, he'll have a whole bunch of formulas and and try to show you what's going on with with particle physics and and, you know, cosmology and things like that. If you ask like a, you know, like a religious person, they'll be like, God. There you go. One one-word answer. Everything is God, God made it simple. Uh, you know, and and those are two, you know, extremes, right?

Right. Cutting away the unnecessary and looking at the core.

Exactly, yeah.

Right. Because if I had to create a con language, I would probably be like, well, my thoughts are so elaborate and crazy and complicated that I can't even explain them. So, my language thus must be very complicated as well, have, you know, 390 cases and 15 genders or whatever. You know where I'm going with this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's tempting to do that too. Like it's part of the fun of like, uh, yeah, I mean, like there must be a word for every single thing. And I mean, there's and I mean, if you talk to people of different languages, there's always these untranslatable words, right? Like where, uh, you know, like you were you were explaining how in Danish, there's this word that means something like a type of comfort and well-being that is just uniquely Danish, right? That's just what is it?

The hygge.

Hygge. Yes, and and I mean, if you if you talk to like a Brazilian, you know, they'll be like, oh, Saudade and like, they everyone has these words that are very unique.

The finish just talked about as well.

Yeah, yeah, in in Finnish, there's this concept of Sisu, this kind of, I don't know, it's kind of like it's this courage, this grit, this like, you know, this type of ability to endure what life throws at you. And, um, and I I love I love, you know, learning about these things. Um, uh, but, you know, underlying all this, there there's a a common experience, right? Like we're all in the on the same planet. We're all basically human beings. So, like why is it that we've come up with all these different maps of how to understand reality?

Right. Um, you said that that Tokipona is essentially a pidgin, and I I from reading your book a little bit, I I definitely definitely had the same feeling from my, you know, linguistics 101 that I did, uh, one semester of. So, I I'm not an expert or anything, but isn't the idea of a pidgin that it's kind of a stage before it becomes, uh, a creole, and then sort of becomes a language? Do you feel like Tokipona is evolving into something else? Or or or was it always designed in a way that it should be a fixed kind of entity?

That's like a very good question. Um, and, uh, it's it's actually a question I don't have the answer to. Um, because I mean, when I first sort of published Tokipona on the internet, like in I think it was 2001, uh, I didn't even realize that the language like sort of was becoming more popular. Like it was something that I sort of did for fun and, you know, like there was like a little chat room and I was talking to some people who some people who, you know, sort of were the early adopters of the language, I guess, and, um, but I mean, I'm I'm I'm a bit out of touch. Like I'm not really active in all the different Tokipona things that are going on out there, right? So, it's, uh, in my absence, the language, of course, like you say, like it it it evolves. People use it in certain ways and, uh, like I don't have control over that, and I don't want control over that. Like it's just kind of its own. Okay. It's like music, right? Like, I mean, a musician can make art, you know, and then it might become like, you know, popular, or people might sample it and reuse parts of it and make a new song, and it's that's, uh, that's part of the beauty, I guess.

Right. When when did you first kind of realize that, okay, there's quite a few people doing this?

Um, maybe like one or two years, I guess, after I I first created it, I realized that like, yeah, this is sort of this is catching on. And I I think part of its popularity is the simplicity, right? Like, I mean, people, I mean, a lot of people are like, hey, I I want to learn another language, but, you know, who has time, right? Like, I I, you know, like learning Arabic or Chinese, like that's going to take a a few years. But Tokipona is like, oh, you know, I've got a weekend. I can just, you know, learn a new language over the weekend. So.

Yeah, how many pages was was the book? Was it about 80 or something?

Uh, the book is 134 pages. Just holding in my hand here, yeah.

Okay, so that's that's the and and make no mistake that is the guide. That is your kind of entire walk-through of Tokipona.

Pretty much. I mean, and that's, uh, I put in my preface, because I, you know, like when when you create sort of the the underlying book that like, I mean, I like I said, like this is basically, let me let me read from the preface here. I've got, um, in this book, I hope to present the language in its completed form. I hope to present the language in its completed form. This is the way I use Tokipona. So, that's my little like disclaimer. Like this is, I mean, who am I? I'm the person who invented this language, and this is how I use the language. But, you know, but, you know, go ahead and do what you want, right? Like I I've like at the very very end of the book, like at like, uh, the final lesson, like there's kind of the book has like lessons, dictionaries, little comic books and things like that. Um, but the final lesson basically says, uh, now the rest depends on you. Go, enjoy yourself. Create, play, and be pona. So, it's kind of like an invitation for you to to to do what you want, you know, with the language now that you have seen what, you know, how I use it.

Right. The only the the the thing I find interesting is that you designed it where you kept going down to 120 words or or thereabouts. Um, and then you're like, well, I don't really know how it's going to evolve, but surely adding words to Tokipona would be kind of against the the original purpose, wouldn't it?

That's true, that's true, yeah. And and it's it's a constant struggle even for myself. I mean, like there's days where I'm like, oh, you know, we should totally have a word for like, you know, vehicle, you know, and then you can, you know, from that concept of vehicle, you could like, you know, make lots of things. Like, uh, for a long time there were people saying like, oh, we should have a word for brother or sister, you know, because it's like a type of fellowship, you know, like when two brothers or a brother and a sister are together, it's like, um, and it's challenging because, I mean, the more the more you say, no, we can't have that word, but we're going to simplify it. So, instead of, you know, brother, we have a word for person, and then the word sama, which means same, also means like same generation or same category. So, it turns out like the word the word for brother or sister, sibling, uh, is the same word as the word for peer, like someone who's the same as you, um.

Socially equal.

Exactly. Um, so, I mean, that's what I did. But, I mean, of course, you could have a word for brother, and of course, you could have a word, I mean, it's, uh, it's it's very subjective, right? Um, and the more abstract you go, like if you take it to the its extreme, like it becomes a type of binary where it's like, we have no ideas whatsoever. Everything is just ones and zeros, and it's just. And if you put the ones and zeros in this combination, then of course, that means airplane. Like, that's obvious. Like, but.

Right. It's yeah, it's really fascinating, and I'm sure that it's probably, uh, it's a study of many many linguists looking at, you know, how how does it happen in, you know, in a natural setting? I remember reading about the Papua New Guinea pidgin, which is great, like, uh, helicopter is something like air fly Jesus or something, or Jesus fly fly or something. And it's really incredible. Um, I guess the kind of the, what would be interesting with Tokipona going forward is that, you know, it was created. So, how is it going to kind of develop compared to the pidgins of that were naturally sort of came from other languages? Um, but you you don't seem to have any kind of, you don't seem to be sort of afraid of any changes because just because it's different from what you created, you kind of just saying, well, this is how I created it. You can use it to however you feel is is correct.

That's yeah, that's my attitude, basically. And, uh, and I mean, in the end, I mean, the the, you know, if people want to buy the book, I mean, you know, people are going to make other things creatively with it. But, uh, at the end of the day, I can say, well, I made it. Here's the official book, and, you know, if you want to support me as an artist, you can you can buy a a copy of the book. But if you want to go and use it for whatever you want, like, please, like that's the whole point, right? Like it's it's a language is not just something that's in a book, it's something that's alive and that you can use and otherwise it, you know.

Right. Uh, what was your experience, uh, speaking about alive. What was your experience speaking it at Berlin? Did you did you get a chance to speak to anyone?

Yeah, yeah, many people approach me in Berlin speaking in Tokipona, and I replied in Tokipona, and it was kind of fun. Uh, and, uh, I mean, there were people there who have been using Tokipona for like 10 years who who who who were there. Um, it's strange. Like it's the language has it's been around for long enough that it has a bit of history. Like even the book, like there's one of the early speakers of Tokipona, uh, Rick Miller, who's who's now who's now passed away, he's dead. And so, like I dedicated the book to to his memory. But it's like our our our community has like history. It's it's strange.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Great. Well, but, um, you know, you you were talking about Conlanging in general at the, uh, at the Berlin Gathering. And I was catching kind of the tail end of that, um, it was kind of a discussion, I guess, it was kind of like a collaboration. You were trying to make your own Conlang in that little room. Did you call it Room 3 Lang or something silly like that?

Yeah, it was yeah, yeah, it was basically like for fun we just to sort of show how the process works, uh, you know, like, well, here's the sounds we have. Here are the ideas. Here are the grammatical options. Like, let's make a language, you know, in half an hour.

Right. And, uh, it looked like a lot of fun, um, what would the excuse me from. Um, when you compared creating Tokipona that long time ago, and then kind of, I mean, it wasn't really that serious, but if you had to create a new language now, would it be vastly different from when you first created Tokipona? Have you learned anything from from that experience, or do you feel like you would probably approach it similarly?

Um, the approach might be similar. I mean, there's only but, uh, it really depends on the situation. I mean, uh, like in the case of Tokipona, it was kind of like trying to create a simple language using universal kind of archetypes and ideas and things that every language has in common. Um, which which inspired me.

Right. And then you wouldn't have to be constrained to, let's say, a minimalist approach, then you could actually just say, well, it can be as redundant as I want if that's the kind of the goal.

Exactly, yeah. Yeah.

Excellent. Has there been any changes in in in the Tokipona since you from the first version to, well, maybe not the first version, but the first time you said, okay, it's pretty done now, to up to until now?

Yeah, I mean, there have been. Um, there's, uh, in the beginning, I was kind of like listening to everybody's feedback where people were saying, no, no, you should do this. No, no, you should totally do not do that. And like, everyone was everyone has an opinion, right? Like where they want to participate in the process. And in the beginning, I was kind of listening to everything.

Right. Did you add anything that you had kind of forgotten in the first rendition that you were like, oh, damn, I have to should have put some word in for this?

Uh, not that I can think of. I mean, I I added a few there's a few words that were more recent. Like, uh, in the beginning, like Tokipona was kind of inspired by like the hunter-gatherer kind of primitive lifestyle. So, you know, the words for food reflected that. Like there was a word for like animal. And so if you were like eating animal or eating a bird, like you would directly just eat the animal or the bird.

Sure.

Um, and then I thought, okay, we need to add agriculture now, you know. Like this this like civilization has moved beyond hunter-gatherers. We need to like grow our own food. So. Um, so I I added a word, uh, pan, which means like, uh, a cereal or a grain. So, something like wheat or rice or or bread. Um, or macaroni or whatever. Like anything that's in that kind of category.

Pretty flexible vocabulary.

Yeah, and that's part of the fun, you know. Like it's each word has so many different meanings, um, but they're all related. So, it's not, I mean, some of them are a bit of a stretch, but it's, uh, it's part of the exercise, you know, it's part of the fun.

Sure. And that's kind of the charm as well. Is is it ever a struggle for the when you're communicating in Tokipona that sometimes it's a bit too ambiguous for, uh, you know, understanding?

A little bit. I mean, the the whole idea was, I mean, part of the spiritual, uh, element of Tokipona for me was always about being present like in the present moment, in the present context. Um, so, I mean, if you're talking about, you know, like a a grain or cereal or rice or wheat or something like that, and, you know, you're in the room with someone, or you're in the field with someone, it's clear like what what you're talking about, right? It's not an abstract thing like, oh, which of the 12 grains are you talking about? Like, it's impossible to know, oh, no. Like it's, you know, it's not going to change your life. Like if you're, uh, you know, likewise the word for like fruit and vegetable, it's the same word. Um, and so, I mean, if you, you know, you're hungry and you get a potato or you get a banana, like, you know, you should just be happy and eat your potato and, you know, it's So, I mean, I I it's part of the philosophy of the language is that, uh, this kind of minimalism is is good for us, not, you know, sometimes it's better to just to just accept things as they are instead of trying to find more ways to make them complicated.

Right. But you're not struggling for words when you're when you're speaking it to, for instance, you hope who's who's very, um, very good. I I, I think. Um, you're not struggling sometimes for like, mm, how how can I say this? It it's not a problem.

I I don't struggle. I mean, I but I'm, uh, but it depends. I mean, you know, like if for everyday situations and, you know, friendship and exploring your thoughts and, you know, prayer and, uh, you know, working together, like these kinds of situations, Tokipona works, you know, creative projects and stuff. But if you're, you know, if you're trying to I don't know, I mean, I'm surprised all the time. Like I I always thought that like it Tokipona could not be used in like for like a legal contract, you know, like, oh, that's too complicated. But there's two guys who did it. Like there's an artist who who wrote like a legal contract that is selling the contract itself to another guy, and he wrote it in like Tokipona Tokipona hieroglyphs. And it's like people are proving me wrong all the time. So, what do I know? I'm just uh.

Right. You're just that's that's really incredible. Yeah.

I'm just I was I was just there in the beginning. That's it.

Yeah. So, I mean, it sounds like you have an amazing community around it. It's it's fun, yeah. It's. All right. So, what what kind of develop we talked about what kind of evolution I suppose the the language would undergo naturally. Uh, but do you have any, uh, any sort of wishes or maybe even ideas that you'd like to do with the language going forward, or or are you like, well, I've done my part. Now all that's left is the language can be spoken and enjoyed and done with what what what you please?

Uh, that's good question. I mean, at some point, if it like if it becomes very serious that people are really want to know, like, I try to respond to the needs of the people. But at the same time, I try to remember that Tokipona was just my own little language to begin with, right? So, it's it's I didn't do it for others in the beginning, but it's it's become a thing that others feel involved with it. So, um, I I don't know. I I guess I've been there's been a lot of really good people in in the Tokipona community. Uh, there's like, uh, like Matthew Martin has been doing a lot of really good work at trying to standardize things and and, you know, provide some type of governance to the the language usage. And there's, you know, people like Yope that you mentioned, he's like been there from the beginning at, you know, administering like the the like moderating the discussion groups and and and things like that. So, it's, um, I I think it's like I think my part is kind of done. Like I think it's best if other people, you know, carry the torch of Tokipona because it's more strength if it's not coming from me. If it's coming from people who who believe in Tokipona and and, you know, what want to use it for whatever purpose they want to use it for.

Right. But but at the same time, if they see you on the street or they happen to know your email address, they're welcome to send you a.

Oh, of course, of course, yeah.

Okay, excellent. Well, I I I I'm almost done with the, uh, with with questions I had, but there was just one thing I I I was wondering because I'm I'm not into Conlanging at all. I don't know anything about it. So, maybe, uh, if we don't we shouldn't probably get into too much detail, but if you had to give like one advice, your number one best tip for somebody who was maybe already devising a Conlang of their own, or maybe wanted to get into it, what would be the the the kind of the tip, you know, the the the thing you wish you would have been told before you went into devising your Conlang?

Uh, that's good question. Um, it's and it it would depend on their situation. I guess I would ask them like what their motivations are. Like is it do you want to create a language that has a community? Do you want to create a language for, you know, a specific fantasy sci-fi world? Do you want to create some like a philosophical type of language to to organize your thoughts and, uh, you know, there there I guess I would start asking these kinds of questions. Like what's what are your goals, what are your motivations? And, uh, and try to guide them from there, you know.

So, in another way, it's important not to kind of start designing the language on a whim. You kind of need to get all your details, all your vows in place.

I think so, yeah. But then again, you know, sometimes it sometimes these creative things just come out of their own as well, too. So, it's it's hard to say. I I wish I had the magic answer for you.

Well, uh, yeah, I thought you provided a very good answer. Um, and indeed all your answers have been very good, and it's been a a great pleasure to talk to you. Uh, not not just in Berlin and here, but also on Skype, and I I'm looking forward to to seeing more in the future.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay. Tokipona.