Jennifer Degenhardt: Better School Learning and Creating Inclusive Materials

Obviously, it's been a very interesting time for the world. And I'm not going to be harping on too much about COVID or pandemics or lockdowns or anything. But I still think I owe you a bit of an explanation for this past nine months or so that we haven't seen any new episodes. It might even be longer than that actually.

But uh the reason was that I moved to a new country. I started taking on clients for marketing consulting, and actual fluency started to produce more of written content. We've had uh some great writers contribute. And, you know, we're always looking for new talent to join the team. So if you're a freelance writer who would like to uh contribute with articles for actual fluency, reviews of language software, any kind of interesting materials, uh definitely uh reach out to me and we can, we can have a talk from there.

But, um, so moving countries, you know, changing the company structure, uh moved the company to a different country as well. Uh setting up all the admin, setting up all my taxes, um, you know, finding an apartment, furnishing it. All this stuff just overwhelmed me so much. But to kind of add, and by the way, this would have overwhelmed me probably without the, the whole pandemic stuff, which was obviously also a pain because uh we had uh a three-month lockdown in the beginning of the year here in Portugal.

And that wouldn't have been so bad, you know, I'm not too uh you know, I, I don't mind being alone. And it, it definitely don't mind being inside. That's That's totally comfortable for me, but unfortunately, the restaurant downstairs decided to do a complete renovation, uh at the same time. And it was incredibly noisy. Uh, you know, imagine people drilling straight into your floor with the biggest drill you could imagine for basically three months straight.

So, I didn't feel very good. I didn't sleep very well. Uh, I think I also had some, not, not full-blown PTSD, but I definitely had some time after where, where, when it had gone quiet again, that I also felt pretty bad. But at the end of the day, I'm uh alive and well, and I don't want to make it seem like my sort of minor problems here are anything in relation to obviously what people have suffered across the world. Losing family members, uh losing jobs, and all that uh unfortunate that happens.

So, I'm back, and I feel a lot better now. Uh that's the other thing, you know, I I talk about mental health on the podcast occasionally, and I can definitely say with certainty that my mental health did take a bit of a plummet in the beginning of the year. Um, but, um, I think a lot of people had a similar experience. And I know there are countries out there at the time of this recording that are still suffering from lockdowns, so I uh I definitely sympathize a lot with you.

Um, but anyway, the podcast is back. Um, I wanted to do it for a long time, but like I said, just didn't, couldn't really grasp all the things I had to do, so it had to go for a while. Um, and I'm sorry about that. I, um, you know, I wanted to keep going and and bring you regular content.

But now we're back, and one exciting upgrade that I'm going to do is that, you know, video has come so far, uh video podcasts are really popular now, and people like Joe Rogan has really popularized the format, and I thought, you know, why don't we do video for Actual Fluency Podcast? So I, uh, I'm not sure we're going to do weekly again, as we used to back in the day, if those of you been listening for a while. Um, but, um, we might, uh, we might be producing some higher quality ones. And, uh, you'll be able to see the face of me and and the interviewee. So that should be fun and exciting.

And I'm not entirely sure when that's going to start either. You know, I, um, I'm trying to build a system for for the whole process. And I'm also looking for someone who can edit the podcast. It's very basic editing. It's, it's not like every minute by minute, but uh, more like stitching audio files together and adding intros and outros and maybe running a quick, um, noise filter on it. Uh, it shouldn't take long per episode, and then upload it to the podcast platform, upload it to WordPress. And, uh, and that's pretty much it. So if you're interested in that, send me an email: kris@actualfluency.com. And, uh, let's talk. You know, I'm always looking to work with people who can help make my life easier and, uh, hopefully grow within the company. And, uh, as the company grows, these, uh, freelance positions, like the writers and the editors could grow as well. So that's very exciting.

Um, another thing that also has suffered a little bit this year is obviously my Portuguese studies. You know, Portugal is my new home, and it's my permanent residence. And, uh, I definitely wanted to put more energy into Portuguese, but so far it's been extremely, uh, shallow again, combined with my poor, uh, poor feeling, and, uh, just the amount of stuff that I had to worry about, I just didn't really do much, and it didn't really bother me too much because we are in a very special situation here in the world. And it's okay sometimes to give yourself a break and not punish yourself for not doing something that you know you want to be doing.

So I've been mostly just paying attention to people speaking and watching the occasional YouTube video and looking at subtitles on on the television, and, uh, you know, it, it's a very similar language to a lot of vocabulary that I have already, so it will be a lot easier to learn. But I definitely need to get into a routine with some weekly lessons with a tutor. Uh, maybe get back to uh, this program I found that has only European Portuguese. Uh, I think it's called Talk in Portuguese, but, uh, um, or practice Portuguese. I've I've forgotten out of the at the top of my head now. But, um, yeah, just get back on that and hopefully make some good progress in the last few months here of the year. But, um, so far, so good.

So, uh, that was my little life update. Today, we're listening to one of the last, uh, audio only episodes that I recorded a long time ago. And I have to make an official apology to the guest who came on. Obviously, I, you know, uh, she gave her time to come and talk to us here on the podcast, and I just kind of never did anything with the recording. I felt, uh, extremely, uh, guilty about that. So, I do apologize to Jen, who's on the show today.

And, um, in the show we talk about a lot of school-related language learning. So, uh, our, uh, the guest today is Jennifer Degenhardt. She's a a Spanish teacher, and she also writes language learning books for children and students, who, uh, with a lot of diversity in them. So they have different characters with, you know, different ethnic backgrounds and different, you know, all kinds of, uh, diverse subjects included, which is not found in typical, uh, language learning books in school today. Uh, which is, uh, a problem that we have mentioned on the podcast before.

So, we talk a little bit about the importance of language learning in schools, about her work as a, as a, as a book author for lang, for learning materials, and how she incorporates them into her, uh, classroom. And we also talk a little bit about her one-year trip to Latin America, and how much Spanish she was able to learn, and what her approach was to get the most out of that trip. So, I hope you enjoy this last audio Actual Fluency Podcast.

And, uh, like I said, I'm sorry I've been gone for so long. I, uh, I, I it's, it's just been a a weird year, and or I should say, we're two years even, so, you know, I hope you will join me again and listen as I publish these new episodes. And, uh, as always, if you have any suggestions for people who you'd like to see on the show, go ahead and send me an email for that as well. Kris@actualfluency.com. So, without further ado, let's jump into the episode.

And before we do, I just want to give a quick thank you to Optilingo, who's this episode's sponsor. Optilingo is a language learning app that focuses on preparing you for speaking, not just for reading and understanding. So, if you want to try something different than all those vocabulary-building apps, then give Optilingo a try. It There's a free trial available, and the monthly subscription is extremely reasonable. So, go to optilingo.com and check it out.

All right, Jennifer, welcome to the Actual Fluency podcast. It's really exciting to have you and talk to you today. Do you wanna start out by giving the listeners a little background to who you are, where you're from, and when you first got that interest in foreign language learning?

And that was despite the fact that, um, my mother had taken off the list. You can't go here, you can't go here. It's not safe, it's not safe. And I said, oh no, I'm, I was accepted to the program. I'm going, Mom. So, um, so off I went without knowing, um, maybe five words of Spanish, because of course, I studied French in school up until that point. So, so I wasn't really prepared. Of course.

Um, but it didn't, it didn't even faze me. I just left and, um, arrived in Bolivia with a bunch of other students, exchange students from all over the world, and, um, we lived with different families. And by the end of the first week, I was able to say, hi, my name is Jen, I'm 16, and I'm from the United States. And I consider that winning, and, uh, you know, just moved on from there. So that's really where, um, you know, the the love of the language started. And, and I think, and I'm, I'm sure you will agree that just being thrown into the, um, into the situation is the best way to to pick up another language.

And, um, so it was it's become very helpful to me, so I can be helpful to to these populations of people. And, um, I'm really glad, so but the funny thing is, is that I did study French in, um, grammar school and middle school and high school, and then went to Bolivia, and then when I went to college, I went to to, you know, university, I went to university up in Vermont, which is even closer to the Canadian border, where French is more prevalent. So, I just, uh, really didn't, didn't choose well or didn't, but it all seems to have worked out in the wash.

And at the same, um, language institute there, I took Spanish lessons, while everyone else was coming in to take English lessons. I took Spanish lessons maybe, I think, once a week, but I also went to to high school there, and all of the lessons were in Spanish.

And what was really fascinating to me at the time was that there were no textbooks at this school. And for courses like history and philosophy, the teacher would stand up at the at the front of the classroom and read from the book. Really dictate the book to the students, who would whose job it was to copy down into the notebook exactly what the teacher said. Well, luckily for me, Spanish is phonetic, so I was able to learn a whole heck of a lot of language that way.

And, and I think too, which is really important is to, if it's to figure out the culture, um, because you don't want to be offensive, you know? I mean, you need to be a little bit, um, um, particular about how you communicate with people because, um, I think that's part of the the language, the, you know, the unspoken, um, non-verbal language with people. So, so I was acclimating for the first couple of months.

And, and you don't really know anybody, and, and that's a human condition, too. And just getting to know new people is, for some people, challenging. So, how can you have conversation and build that trust with somebody if you don't really know them?

And so, when I was going to school every day, um, as the only blonde-haired, blue-eyed, um, girl in the school, I, you know, I had a lot of friends because I was, you know, sort of the, you know, sort of like the Barbie doll, but not the Barbie doll looking, just the, you know, a doll-looking figure. I mean, it was very interesting to me. Um, in that, that the other girls in the school were just enamored. And I thought, I don't know what you're enamored with because I can't even speak with you. So, I'm useless to you. But we became, Yeah, we became fast friends, actually. And they were very sweet, and it was I was actually just back in touch with them, um, a couple months ago. We were all on a on a Zoom chat. And, um, and I was remarking that to myself, that, well, we were speaking on the Zoom chat, I was able to understand them so so much better than I did when I was back in high school. And contribute more to the conversation as a result. So that was that was really special.

Um, but the to getting back to the year's time, um, you know, trying to establish relationships with people and I was, um, is is important. And I was really fortunate that I had that that family that I was living with. And there were a lot of them. There were, um, there were six kids and and the set of parents that I that I lived with, so it was, um, it was great that I could find different people to talk talk with in Spanish. And all of whom knew English, but would help me along only only if necessary. So, so that helped in the beginning, and then then I built up the confidence.

I think that's the other part of of learning language that that, that is such a benefit is that it's so confidence building, confidence building. In that, once you have a few things in your tool belt, you can go out and use them. And the more you speak, the better you get. The better you get, the more you speak. And, um, so I was grateful for the experience to to live with a family that was, um, really involved with with languages through that institute. I think, um, a couple of my, uh, host sisters taught there and worked there as well. So they did know English very well.

Um, I know that's not the only reason to do it, of course. It's, it's, it's building a lot of other skills and experiences, too. But just talking about the language, I think that's a great setup. And if if any parents are listening, it's it it might be a good inspiration to maybe, you know, what you can send your kids off to to do, you know, language project-wise or abroad, because I also think it helps build character and it's a good life experience to actually go abroad and spend some time getting to know how other parts of the world live.

So, but, um, in any case, I think it's something to aspire to, and if people have the means to, uh, talking to parents, again, send their kids off to do that, then I think it it it's a fantastic experience. Um, I, uh, really wanted to do that myself when I was, when I was young, but I just never really found the program that, um, that was, uh, kind of suitable, and I don't know, my parents weren't maybe totally on board with the idea of sending their teenage son across the world. But, um, which is understandable, too. But, uh,

And then on top of it, you're also like, oh, I'm also learning this brand new language. Um, so I think it, it's actually, I'm not even sure if it's easier, quote unquote, to learn a language going abroad than it is doing it at home. I think there are a lot of benefits, a lot of, let's say, input that you can get from being in the country. But the pressure on you is also a lot higher, and you're in a completely foreign environment. So unless you're very extroverted, it will take you a long time to kind of start speaking, as you mentioned, get the confidence.

Um, so I guess the ideal scenario would be some kind of hybrid, where you, you know you're going in, let's say, six to 12 months, so you start learning at home and get some of the basics, and maybe you get to a little beginner level where you can actually speak a little bit. And then when you get there, you sort of build on that and and and quickly accelerate the the skill.

And, I mean, it happened that it did work out. And but it and it really was a great time. I remember, just when you've said, um, having to deal with the local bureaucracy, I had my passport stolen while I was in Bolivia at 16 years old. And, um, so I did have to deal with the the local bureaucracy, and I had to do that all myself in in Spanish. So, um, I even had to skip school because, you know, the in the family I stayed with, they were very strict about going to school, but I I had to go to the consulate, and and renew my passport or do something. And, um, and I had to skip school to do it. So it was it was it was very, um, exciting for me to learn all of these new lessons and and just sort of figure all that stuff out.

So, so really, that's how my Spanish, um, you know, major came about. And then I double-majored in Latin American Studies. I do I love Latin America. I I love everything about it. And, um, and from there, you know, then, okay, then I then I was good for another two years until I graduated. And then I had to find a job, and something to do. And I didn't really know. But both of my, um, parents are teachers, and, uh, or they were teachers. They're both retired. And, so, I thought, well, I can they like their job. I'm sure that I will like it, too. And that's how, really, how that part of my career took off was was just following in, you know, in the family biz.

You know, I don't want to have to check off on a rubric or, you know, adhere to this standard and that standard. I know when the students are getting the language, I, and I can see it in their eyes, and I know that they're liking it if they're happy in my class. And, um, you know, that's all well and good for all the, you know, the feel-good people of the world, but not for, um, for education here in the United States. They really want, um, outcomes to be measurable. And, um, as a person who who teaches the whole student, I can tell, but how do I measure that? I don't know. And I I never really got on board with all of those rubric things, and it started to stress me out a lot. So, I was able to change, uh, the my career to teaching college, which is, uh, or university, um, which is a lot more a lot more free. And it's it's fun to see that.

And I, and I'm not really a pedagogue by any means, or a methodologist. But I have found that, you know, teaching, teaching the whole language altogether, and then, you know, letting the grammar come in naturally, and and not really stressing about, um, perfection, because in learning a language, I mean, that is not the way we learned language as, you know, as babies.

Um, I remember I did this is an example all the time that I give to my students. How many times did you tell your parents, Mom, I brung home my books from school?

But because of the, the fundamental mischaracterization of languages as a science, I they teach languages like, uh, math, in most most schools, anyway. I mean, I know there are some super star teachers out there who who mix it up and try to try to change the the kind of status quo, but, I think the the sad fact of the matter is that for 90% of the language experience, it's like memorization, rote memorization.

And even, this is probably the the weirdest thing is you can have people who go to extremely amazing universities like Oxford or Cambridge, or, uh, whatever the US equivalent of that might be. Um, and they do a four-year degree in a language, and they can't have a conversation in it after it. But they can read, uh, you know, classic literature or, uh, you know, have good working knowledge of the language to a really high level, and, uh, probably grammatically correct in their writing, too. But ask them, how was your weekend? They're like, they go completely blank. Uh, that's crazy.

Um, I think, and that's why I that's what I try to kind of tell people who maybe they're not, you know, super into the whole, uh, language learning, maybe they don't listen to podcasts like this one, and read like how to about methods and apps and things. But they have this desire to, oh, I want to learn Spanish, or I want to learn French. And I just say, you know, just start, and the the kind of benefits are going to come from from day one. And don't put pressure on yourself to have to learn the whole language, because I think that's what people get stuck is they they see the mountain in front of them, and they think, oh, languages are useless unless I know, you know, unless I'm totally fluent in it.

But, um, But, you know, make it, make it doable. You know, and I tell my students, too, if you if you can have a a full-on conversation with me with 50 words, you know, all the power to you. And, uh, encircle locute and and figure it out. And, and they and they do. I love that. When they tell me, oh, of course, I can't think of any examples right now, but they they try to explain something to me in Spanish. And, um, if it's, you know, with a topic that we're talking about, I can figure it out. It's the best. It's it's the most fun ever. And it's so fun for me. So I, you know, it must be great for them as well.

And I think the, another flaw of the school systems in general is that let's say you take the, let's take the verb conjugations, for example. I remember in German classes in school that we would go through them all like a song, you know? But the fact of the matter is that when you're a beginner in the language, you generally use only two, uh, two kind of versions of them, anyway. Right. You say, you say, I do, and you say, you do, usually. And then a rare occasion, it could be we or they or whatever. But why is it that we're going through those in a kind of a table pretending that they have the same usage rates, you know? I don't understand who came up with that because when you're a beginner, I think 90% of your sentences probably start with I, or me, you know? Um, so that should be the the main focus, and and then maybe you or the polite form of you would be the the one to learn. But, you know, I I don't know how often you need to say they. I mean, it's not that urgent, I find.

And, um, a lot of, uh, people my age, you know, contemporaries tell me that they can't help their kids because I don't remember anything. It was such a horrible experience. And, um, and so that they were turned off by that. And I'm hoping the tide is changing a little bit in the sense that that it's it's more being involved with the language to acquire instead of use the language now, instead of learn about it. And, um, and that's it, and and that's I think that's that's that would be helpful for everyone. You know, but we have to get we have to get everybody on board, you know, so we can, uh, you know, dispense with the the older ways of teaching. Not saying that they're bad. I just they're not, they're not useful any any longer.

And by the way, this is also a common reaction I get a lot when people share their school language learning experience. They say, oh, I got an A in in Spanish, but I couldn't speak with my Spanish-speaking friend. I'm like, well, how on earth do you get an A, then? To me, that's a complete failure. Yes. I agree. Like, obviously, it's because they, I mean, it would be like C minus, minus, minus, or F minus, minus, whatever the lowest grade is. I always say, I always say I'm going to give you a Q. Yeah, I mean, the whatever the lowest is you can give, definitely give it because to me, that's a and and the problem is we kind of, that gets celebrated. Oh, you got an A in Spanish, great. You passed the exam, you know some things about the language, but you can't say anything. I mean, that's like rewarding failure. Yes, I agree. And putting you're basically putting the goal posts at exactly the wrong place.

Right. So, so I think we're, I mean, we are seeing some kind of a revolution, I think. There is kind of grassroots movements, and, you know, the more that podcasts like this and other content creators, other podcasts, other YouTubers, and bloggers, the more they share that message that the old way is terrible, the more of a move we're going to see in the right direction, I think. And I think it's probably a lot better today than it was 20 years ago. So, Yeah. You know, baby steps, baby. Baby steps. Baby steps. Baby steps.

But Jennifer, I really thank thank you so much for coming on the show and and sharing your experiences with us. Um, if you want to give people just maybe a a one one place they can come and find out more about you.