Marcus Furness: Identity and Culture

There everyone, we're back with another episode of the Actual Fluency Podcast. And today I've got a special guest. Recently I've been asking you guys out there if you have any interesting language learning stories or things about your identity or culture, anything you wanted to talk about on the podcast, to just send me a little message on actualfluency.com/guest.

And one of the people who reached out was Marcus from Tasmania, who was really interested in the cultural implications of language learning, including identity formation. So, we're going to talk a little bit about that and much more. And Marcus, welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you for coming on.

I'd also like to say thank you for, um, producing the podcast. It's been wonderful to follow along your journey as a language learner and also to hear so many of the wonderful insights from various language learners and, you know, the greats out there also in terms of their advice. So,

And, and why don't we start the discussion today with your Polyglot journey, you know? How did you get into the wonderful world of language learning and, and cultural?

Um, so I had a very different understanding of language learning, of something that of it being a bookish endeavor, perhaps, of, um, something quite removed from community, and through being associated with so many of the wonderful, you know, polyglots that are putting their materials out there, um, like yourself and like so many of the greats, whether it be through the blog format, podcast format, um, YouTube videos, of course. That really prompted me to consider learning a language that I might actually get out and speak with people.

Um, so in many ways, I started out floundering, just taking on basic recommendations about the typical ways to learn a language. Let's say Duolingo, um, let's say Teach Yourself, you know, all those sort of basic ways of starting out, getting an understanding of language. I struggled in many ways to fit that mold because I had previously learned from essentially what is a grammar translation method with Latin and Ancient Greek, simply reading texts, back-translating into English at all times. Uh, relying heavily upon adapted texts and, you know, doing grammar drills and the like before that. It's something I enjoyed and I, I loved the opportunity it gave me to learn more about structures within the English language. Um, but in many ways, there was still something lacking. There was still obviously an inability to speak those languages. And whilst I had the opportunities to explore so many rich aspects of the cultural history associated with those languages, it still didn't provide what living people within my own community could do.

Um, so in many ways, on your recommendation, I discovered the Michel Thomas course. And, um, as my partner is German, I decided to order in the, the German Michel Thomas course. However, through the local library, it had quite a wait time on it. And in that time, the Arabic course arrived, um, first. And I decided to investigate it to see how the, the structure of the, the Michel Thomas course, uh, worked. And I was hooked. I, I went through the entire program. I went through the foundation, the advanced, the, um, vocabulary course. And that really spurred my interest to get out there and speak to people within my community, um, many of whom, who had been stigmatized, um, in many ways as, um, as, uh, as foreigners, as, as, um, as immigrant workers and the like. Um, so I, I felt like I really wanted to challenge those misconceptions by finding out more about their story and particularly by using the language.

Um, so in many ways, that I, I've been traveling along to a point now where Arabic has become a language that I have consolidated, um, mostly. I've needed to go back from the Michel Thomas method and look at reading and writing, um, as well as just, um, listening and speaking. And incorporating more textbook grammar focus, uh, now moving into a period of reading literature and, and the like. Um, it always comes up in discussion, where would you place yourself at this stage now? I believe I'd place myself at a B1, fluctuating in and out of a B2. I'm sure you would understand yourself with the, the level that you've achieved with Russian. You're always negotiating new, uh, cultural elements within the language once you get beyond the, the sort of B1, one stage. You, you will learn something and use it and be told, look, we don't say it that way and. And the like. So, um, and that, but that's also created some wonderful friendships where I've been able to go back and forth with, with the language and and, um, develop that closeness, um, through, through the language. And that encouragement that has really helped me to stick with, with the language.

And since then, it's giving me, given me greater confidence to add, um, languages independently now. So, I've also undertaken, um, Persian or Farsi to an a what I would suggest is an A2 level now, which has had more of an emphasis on conversation within the community. And also now beginning, beginning German, um, with the emphasis of, of, of wanting to speak with my, my partner and, and however, my I've been now, um, focusing more so on reading and writing in order to kind of balance out that headspace of managing languages at a different level, a bit of a higher level now with, with Arabic and now Farsi quite conversational, but German really just, just starting out, but about really challenging that, that final barrier of, of learning my partner's language, which has been so important to me for some time.

I'm going with the grammar drills, um, a lot of free writing, particularly, a lot of exercises, um, with a little less emphasis on speaking at the moment.

So, uh, so I, I think it's a a fine approach. It's definitely usable for, for vocabulary and grammar, which German is of course, uh, has lots of of grammar to, uh, to digest.

And that's it, it's, it's spurring on my curiosity to do the work each day and the like as well.

How, how did that go and, and did you feel any sort of limitations, any huge wins, or what happened when you tried to go out and and use it after such a short time?

There were certainly times where I had gotten a little in over my head in terms of understanding what was coming back at me. Um, there's also the difficulty with having learned one dialect of, um, of Arabic, an Egyptian dialect. I had to navigate that realm also with more formal dialects and the like, um, represented within the community here, um, particularly Saudi Arabian dialects of the Khaliji Strand and and the like. So, yeah, it's, it's been, uh, it's been progressive at all points and those relationships have been developing, but they've been very fulfilling at all times. And I've never went, gone away from a situation and felt like I couldn't, you know, I couldn't feel confident about the next time and and wanting to speak more with those people and incorporate, um, and that that really helped shape what I wanted to learn next, having moved away from coursework material, wanting to create, I guess, uh, descriptors that were relevant to my my current circumstances and and my motivations and the like, which would only then spur on, uh, spur on that inspiration.

It's tough to be, it's tough to feel super inspired and motivated if they all speak great English and they don't really care if you speak Danish or Swedish or whatever.

Um, so, so maybe you can share a little bit about the, the kind of the attitude towards foreign languages in Australia, in Tasmania, in New Zealand, because we know about America, we know about England, I think, to a large extent. We often hear about that. But how is it actually in in Down, Down South, as they say?

Um, more generally, uh, there has been attitudes directed towards the in many ways, the a real lack of, um, positive development in in language, uh, learning more generally and also and and cultural learning also. It's, um, Australia has been one of those countries where generally people are expected to assimilate. Um, and I myself had, uh, come from a background with a Hungarian father and an Irish mother. Um, and had had associations with many other people growing up who had come from, uh, migrant and immigrant backgrounds, but whose parents did not continue their home language with them. They had an idea that in Australia we speak English and therefore, um, there were also varying attitudes towards the effect, um, that would have on children developing, you know, 20, 30 years ago. And the like.

And now, in many ways, we're seeing the, um, the ramifications of those decisions where there are people like myself who are struggling to develop a sense of their own identity as displaced people, having a yearning to understand something about their cultural heritage, um, whether that, uh, be European or or or British or something in a wider construct, perhaps, uh, as well. And so, it's been, uh, a difficult process for myself in terms of, um, coming to define what was important to me, um, in relation to my identity because of those limitations on, uh, cultural and language, um, learning opportunities in Australia.

Um, the, the other situation with, uh, language learning in Australia, particularly, is that it doesn't necessarily follow the same viewpoint as, uh, the European schools do, which is that certain languages are ranked in difficulty. Uh, generally, in Australia, languages are regarded due to their, um, due to their locality status and their, their, um, minority status and the association within communities. So, in in many ways, our the languages that are best represented in schooling systems here in, in Tasmania, are what European schools would consider to be the hardest languages.

Um, they are, uh, Mandarin Chinese due to our proximity, obviously, to China and and Arabic being another, another big one due to, uh, immigration here in Australia, as well as, um, Greek and Italian and and and, uh, many of the, the languages that were brought here, um, during the, the influx of the, um, migrations after World War II.

Um, I had worked for a number of years in order to support myself. Uh, I, I did a an apprenticeship here in Australia before later on deciding that I would go to university to somewhat rediscover what it is I, I wanted to do with my life, um, and in many ways, I, I really struggled with the I, the, the concept of university level education. Um, I struggled to navigate the realm of academia. I felt like I wasn't cut out for it. Um, and it was actually within the ancient history program at one of the universities here that first enabled me to feel like I, I can get through these hurdles. I had a wonderful lecturer who was very supportive of my writing, um, who was a, was a, very much one of an important mentor in in my life at that stage. And the enthusiasm and the passion that he had for the Latin language and for the ancient world and for the, I mean, I mean he just breathed life into, um, the ancient world. So, I became captivated by the ancient Romans and the ancient Greeks. And to me, it represented an opportunity to learn in many ways what I saw to be an elite, uh, learn within an elite sphere that I, I something I would have been denied, um, throughout my, my earliest attempt at schooling, having gone to school in in a regionalized area, having missed out on, on language learning and the like.

And, and so, um, yeah, that really helped I in many ways, my original focus was on archaeology, was on classics, and ancient literature. And from there, I finally made the plunge to study the languages themselves and and learn more about the roots and history of the English language. And therefore, make comparisons with other languages developed from, from Latin in the, in the Romance sphere and the like. And, and that, yeah, just really helped me to to define what it is that was important to me, how I wanted to identify myself to others. And in many ways, it's exactly as, as David, um, described in that first episode, a a lover of learning, somebody who's yearning to learn, but also, in many ways, he encouraged me to realize that what you are is always changing. Um, you can't really define yourself based on a set of experiences, whether it be in school or in your teenage years. So, it helped me to say, well, I can redefine myself as an educated person and I can have success learning independently in in other spheres, whether it be within science, within literature, within philosophy. And now I can transfer that and have success in something else as an independent learner, learning about languages. But, of course, learning about the history and the culture that goes hand in hand with those languages and with the people that I now engage with.

And I find it so important to take a to it's so important to take the opportunity to orient yourself towards whatever it is that you feel could you could be passionate about. So, for me, I remember when I first started Latin, I read a natural history of Latin. And when I started studying archaeology, I read magazine articles, um, on archaeology. And now, having studied, uh, informally so many aspects of language learning, I've now come to a point where I'm, uh, deciding now, I, I've undertaken a Masters of of Applied Linguistics. So, really formalizing that training now. And hoping to also, like yourself, get out there and promote the value of language learning and to assist others in their goals also. But that came out of a very informal association that started, you know, in many ways with, with following your journey as, as, let's say, as an average language learner, which really did inspire me, um, to just get started and and think about where I wanted to to go.

Uh, like some guys, you know, 40, 50 years ago, had the idea that we could send a ship to the moon. And, you know, that seemed like crazy at the time, but obviously it was possible. So, that guy became a genius. And I, I feel like we can apply that thinking to just about anything. People might think, oh, it's really hard to, uh, to study, uh, neuroscience. Well, if you're interested in how the brain works, there's a neuroscience for Dummies. That's on my Kindle. Uh, you can start, you know, slowly, but it's really hard to learn something if you're resisted mentally and say, like, if we bring it back to languages, for instance, if we say, oh, I'm not a language learner. I can't learn German and speak to my wife or, you know, a friend from Düsseldorf or whatever. Um, the, the belief that you can't do something is really, really, uh, rock solid.

It's because and yet, you know, we do. We see people who who go out and they they start a a they they start a degree in nursing at in in their mid-30s. And they succeed and they, they're teaching themselves things that they've never had an association with. Yet they're still going to tell themselves that they can't learn languages because of the experiences they had in school.

Like a good example I got from Arena recently is, uh, she said, I used to really hate doing the dishes. And as someone who hates doing the dishes with a passion, I was, you know, my ears perked up and I was like, okay, go on. She said that instead of seeing it as something, you know, a chore and something that has to be done and just a negative experience. Well, she reframed it and made it into basically a sort of a a meditative state where she takes a break from whatever she's doing and she just stands there for 15, 20 minutes, whatever, how long it takes. And maybe even put some kind of audio content on, a podcast or a, you don't even have to. You can also just put some chants on like, uh, you know, some background music and just take a breather and and try to focus on finding finding yourself. And she said after she did that, doing the dishes was the best time of her day. And I was like, hmm, that's a really interesting example.

But it's, it's about sparking that interest and saying, like, I'm curious about this concept or this idea or this, this word. I'll look it up. And then all of a sudden, you're writing out notes and and practicing these, these phrases and the like. But then, of course, you get out there and you you incorporate that little bit of learning, uh, for myself. You know, it might be like a small line of Hafiz's poetry in Farsi as I'm getting out in the, the community. And then I get to hear so much more about somebody's own association with that that piece or or the like. And I think I'm so proud that I I spent the time learning those two lines to then go out and and utilize, to then get that story, to get that that inspiration, to to go further. Because that's not studying a language. That's not work then. It's, it's, it's about learning, yes, but, um, but in a very, a very uplifting way.

It's also helped me identify in myself what's particularly important about my own identity, what I would call identity realization, much rather than formation. Um, because it is it has allowed me to emphasize certain aspects. Growing up in Australia, um, it is very common for people to have migrant and immigrant heritage. But as I also suggested, it's also very common for that to be, um, pushed to the side when you're being socialized, growing up and the like. So, it was it's very interesting to me that when I started to engage with refugee communities here, it was actually very important for me to learn the vocabulary to talk about who my father was as a Hungarian person who came here and supplanted his home language with English. And who integrated. And how it's also equally important now raising my son for him to have the opportunity to embrace his cultural heritage in a in a newly developing society here in Australia. And one that welcomes, uh, people such as refugees also. So, yeah, it was it was very interesting to me to think, well, my Hungarian heritage was of little relevance, um, if I were to speak with a group of of high school friends and the like. But in this context, it was actually deeply connected to who I wanted to portray myself as, uh, when dealing with, with, with these people.

You know, I often kick myself as how I can go out and learn Arabic to this level, to a to a B1, to a B2 level, to to utilize Farsi conversationally, but to not successfully learn my home language or the like in Hungarian. So,

Um, when it comes to identity, I think it doesn't need to be such a conscious process. I think identity formation has never really fit with my understanding. I've always gone with the idea of identity realization. And that there are many aspects and many opportunities to realize, um, what defines your identity. Had I not had the opportunity to go through my university studies, I wouldn't have realized that I had the capacity to be an educated person and to set an example for my son and to, um, and to have success learning in a sphere academically that could then transfer not only to learning independently, but helping others learn now as I go on to study to be a teacher and and the like. And and of course, as I, as I impart my wisdom onto my my son also. Um, and so, yeah, I think in many ways, I wasn't, I wasn't defining myself as the sort of person that I wanted to be. And now, I've been able to be a little more mindful of each influence in my life, whether it be meeting a person or whether it be reading a book, or whether it be coming across an article or even whether it be, uh, having a particular thought. It's helped me now to to think about how that can influence my, um, my understanding of who I would like to be. Um, and it's say it is difficult because then it does sound like a conscious thing.

Um, I think we in in the language learning community, I think identity formation is really tied to that exploration of another another culture or another another language. I don't think it needs to be so constrained. Um, I think for instance, I think you could still be studying within a thoroughly Western, um, discourse and yet have associations with Confucianism and, uh, perhaps a moralizing world views associated with the East. I don't think that you need to thoroughly invest yourself in Asian culture to explore that. Just like similarly, people who are coming from, uh, foreign language learning backgrounds to learn English for professional purposes or to their advance their careers, doesn't necessarily mean that they can't discover aspects of the, uh, the culture associated with their learning, uh, surrounds. Um, that fit with their own, uh, their own ideals initially. It's not I think the, the idea of teaching cultural elements within language learning has been really, uh, over-strategized in terms of trying, I mean, and particularly when you're dealing with a language like English, which in fact has many cultures associated with it. And there is no one defining, uh, culture. I think it is very difficult to because then it's also hard for people to discover what's important for them.

I think the other thing is important when it comes to identities and language learning is that, um, they're very much they're very much characterized by imagined identities and imagined communities that people are struggling to navigate into throughout the learning process. And I find, for instance, an example can be people learning English for professional purposes. They may have had a professional career in their own country and they want to be immediately accepted into that new realm of academia in the English language. But, of course, there is that that hurdle of overcoming the the language barrier. But also that, uh, that's not necessarily defined by nationality or the like that's defined by socialization practices within, um, within Western discourse, within business discourse and professional discourse and the like. And I think there's also it's also important to realize that people have varying levels of investment in that as well. So, it's not solely about motivation, but about their, um, you know, that that pull of that heartstring in many ways.

And especially now with you getting a lot of Syrian refugees. So, I mean, that would be an a great opportunity to learn a little bit of Arabic and and get to know exactly what what's going on. How what is because when you see Syria on the TV, it's like, you know, it's a war zone and it's a dictatorship. And it's it sounds like a terrible disaster. So, if you could actually go and speak to people from there, you know, that what kind of amazing view of the world or indeed Syria could you get from that kind of encounter? And how much better could you make their lives because they feel like they're completely isolated from the rest of the non-Arabic speaking Europe. So,

But if we had been more approaching, if we had been more welcoming to to foreign cultures and languages to begin with, we would have just had lots of languages all over the place and that would be a a symbiotic relation ship instead of this either or.

Whereas if we had been, if everyone was a lot more welcome and learned a few words of Chinese, just to get the introduction, you know, I'm sure you can figure it out as you go along. You don't have to learn Mandarin to C2 level to be able to go over to someone and say hi, you know? And if you do that, then you get those relationships as we've been talking about. And that means that the people from that sub-community get exposure to the greater to the bigger community, the bigger community. And and therefore also absorb a lot more English. So, it it goes both ways and I think if you have that kind of welcoming attitude, you're not going to have a dominant language necessarily. I think people are going to stick to their native language, but they're going to be so much better in the in their next language.

But anyway, Marcus, it was a very deep, uh, at the end here, but I really enjoyed the, uh, conversation and, and I, I hope that through the efforts of definitely the podcast and also your pursuits and and the people listening that we can, that we can change the world and and how cultures co-exist. Uh, because I think that the internet and the global globalization has definitely pushed things in the right direction, but there are, there are still lots of, there's still lots of work to be done and I think if we could all embrace a much more welcoming attitude, like your own, we can, we can have a much better tomorrow.

I thank you for your kind words on what, what I'm hoping to achieve here in in my small community. And I, I thank you for welcoming me into your larger community through the podcast and the blog.