Tamara Marie: Teaching Spanish through Music (Spanish Con Salsa!)

Hello, guys, and welcome to episode 153 of the Actual Fluency Podcast. On this episode, I'm joined by Tamara Marie from spanishconsalsa.com, who is a Spanish teacher who focuses largely on the medium of music to help people learn Spanish. And in the episode, we get into a lot of the reasons why music can be really beneficial, and I also share some of my own experiences using music in my Russian studies. So, do enjoy this episode, and I'll see you for the next one.

Alright, Tamara, welcome to the Actual Fluency Podcast. Do you want to start the episode off by giving the listeners an idea of who you are, where you're from, and what you're working on at the moment?

And the way language is taught in school is sort of like a cultural note, right? It's like, okay, learn some French, learn some Spanish, you know, but it's not like we learn conversational, um, language, or we learn anything that will really help in the real world, to be honest. So, although I had exposure to Spanish when I was in, um, middle school and then again in high school, I actually stuck with it throughout, um, all of high school, even though it was an elective. Uh, I thought I was pretty decent at it, you know, but it wasn't until the first time I actually traveled that I realized that I wasn't, right?

So, my first time out of the country was years after I graduated from high school, and I was going on a trip to, uh, Panama, and I thought, oh, you know, I know Spanish, I'll be fine. So, I remember thinking that, um, you know, I was trying to brush up on some words before, you know, I got to the airport in, um, in Panama. And I was sitting on the plane, and I was like, all right, I just need to remember like the word for address, "dirección," because he's gonna ask me, you know, what's your address, uh, to fill out the customs forms and immigration, right? So, I'm like, really concentrating, like, yeah, I'm gonna nail this, you know, I got this.

And I get up to the line in immigration, and they're like, I don't know what the guy said, to be honest with you, 'cause I have no idea. I just I just remember standing there like, uh, "Sí?" Uh. And I just kinda like handed him this paper I wrote down the address so that he could, you know, figure out where I was staying, 'cause I was completely useless. So, I think that was my first real experience in the real world, realizing that what I had learned in school was not very helpful to me.

So, that's what really motivated me, because I'm I'm a little bit of a stubborn, hard-headed person sometimes. So, it was like a challenge. I was like, okay, I traveled abroad. I thought that I, you know, knew this language, and it's clear now to me that I don't. So, what am I gonna do about it? So, at that point, I really just kinda looked for everything, you know, like we most most of us do, we just go on Google, right? Like, how to learn a language, right?

Um, and what I mean by that is, you know how when you're learning a language, you feel like this is someone else's culture, like there's this it's a foreign language, right? So, it's inherently not a part of who you are. And uh, a lot of people these days, they talk about cultural appropriation and all these things. So, sometimes it feels uncomfortable, right? 'Cause you're like, oh, I'm not Hispanic or, you know, I'm not Latino, so why am I, you know, learning this language? I feel like an outsider.

But what really helped me was connecting with the culture. So, again, it really didn't matter what resources I use. Some of them were crappy, quite honestly. Some of them were great. Some of them were mediocre. But for me, what really took me to that next level of really being confident in my language ability was finding a personal connection. And for me, that was music. And it was culture. So, I started taking salsa lessons, and at the time, I couldn't dance at all.

So, uh, for me, like, listening to the music, taking classes, starting to meet people, sort of naturally become a part of this amazing Latino culture that we have here in the US, it just became this natural thing that I connected to. Like, the music, you know, music just in and of itself, right? Um, it really activates your memory. So, you can just think like some of the moments in your life that are triggered, like when you hear a song come on the radio, right? So, you might just be sitting there, not even thinking about whatever happened, and then the song comes on, you're like, oh, that was my breakup from 10 years ago, or oh, that was that fun time we all went to the beach, or whatever it is, right? Music just sort of catapults you back to that place.

So, using that as sort of a a connection for me, it really just naturally motivated me to keep learning. It went from like, I want to know what this song means, to I want to be able to talk to the people that I'm meeting now, that I'm actually, you know, integrating myself into the culture. And then it just became like a thing where I just kept going. And I think, as you know, Kris, like, with language learning, motivation is a huge part of it.

So, like, little things like that would frustrate me. But then I would, you know, put on a song that I like, one of my favorite songs, and it's like, hey, I'm singing along, and I forget about my mistakes. So, for me, that really, really helped me make a personal connection and really helped keep me motivated to where now, um, I started to help other people, you know, with learning Spanish the same way that I did.

Um, because we have a huge community of people who are into Latin dance and who love salsa and other types of Latin dance. But they really are not Latino, they're not Hispanic, they don't know the language, and they just love the dance, right? So, there's actually a pretty a pretty large community of us that really enjoy participating in the culture, but really don't know the language. So, that was sort of a natural thing for me to, you know, all the friends that I was making that weren't a part of the Hispanic community to say, hey, do you know what this song means that we're dancing to right now? Like, no, I really don't.

And it's like so we that kind of starts a conversation, and, um, you know, music could just take you so many places. You you learn about the culture, you learn about the people, you get that exposure to like different accents, you learn about different cultures, different countries. So, it's kind of like all-in-one. You don't really have to force it. Um, like a textbook might say, oh, and in España, comen paella, right? Oh, the paella in Spain. Like, it's like this one little paragraph, right? But like, with music, you don't have to force it like that. It's sort of just naturally there. It's part of the rhythm, it's part of the artist who's who's singing, it's part of the emotion you hear in his voice. You kind of get all of that wrapped up, um, in the music.

So, it just became a natural way to have conversations and go deeper. And, um, yeah, and eventually, I guess we can talk about it a little later, but I I sort of developed that more into courses and then a community around learning, uh, Spanish specifically through music.

But just just one moment before, going back to your, uh, your method-binging of of trying all the CDs and the apps and the everything, did you was there any sort of aha moments there compared to when you were going through the school curriculum, which I assume was a standard kind of like a, you know, grammar drills and lots of reading and and stuff. Was there any kind of big revelations there in those methods? Or or did did you really find find that click, uh, once you got into the music, really?

So, what I noticed, like, one of one of the things that really clicked for me, and I started to realize what was helping me with Spanish as well, was really paying attention to the sounds. And I think a lot of times, we get caught up in we want to have a conversation, or we want to be able to to, I don't know, read a novel, or whatever we want to do in the language. And we don't really pay attention to the sounds. And I think that is why music is was for me, really helped things click, because you really have to pay attention to the sounds, right?

Especially if you don't know what the words mean, but you still have like the song memorized. You know how you like have a song in your head and you you don't know some of the words, so you just kinda go, "da da da da da," or you like make up something, right? But you still got this melody and this rhythm kind of just stuck in your head. It's there, right? And you don't know what to do with it. So, like, I think with music, it's like you have to pay attention to the intonation, to the the sound of the language, the the real and and every every language, even without like music behind it, has its own musicality, right? It has its own rhythm.

So, I think that the writing systems get us tripped up. And I, you know, even with Spanish, and I tell people this, because there's this misperception that like, oh, Spanish is really like just like English, like it's the same alphabet, there's just a couple letters that are different. And I really like when I and I thought that all throughout school, 'cause that's what we were taught, and I'm looking at the alphabet, I'm like, it looks like our alphabet. There's only that like N with the little squiggly line, like that's not, you know. So, but it's actually not true.

Like, when you actually listen to the sounds, and I did like a breakdown of this I did a like video about this, because, you know, the letter R is one that it's really hard for English speakers to pronounce in Spanish and other languages that have that trilled R.

So, I think we create so many errors by trying to learn grammar first, or trying to learn the writing system and learn how to read, and that's why you have so many people who learn Spanish in school, and they go, well, I can read it pretty well, but when someone starts talking, I have no idea what's going on. And I go, what use is that?

Like, like you just said that it's much easier just to work on the pronunciation early on and get those sounds right before you understand anything, because then you can't corrupt the sounds with your sort of knowledge of the words. Like, you you don't have those, uh, let's say, your your example with the police, for instance. If you didn't know the word, but you just had to reproduce the sound based on like a recording, then, you know, you would have no American or or English, you know, pretenses to take with you. So, you just get it, and you just work on listening and reproducing instead of, uh, you know, trying to, yeah, I I don't know if you do this, but for Russian, I would often see the word in my head and try to pronounce the written word. And it took me a really long time to learn the simple, very simple idea. Maybe other people have had the same, um, experience. Please do write a comment if that's the case. Where if you just try to reproduce the sound instead, then it's much easier, 'cause you're liberated from the you know, visualizing the word and going kind of syllable by syllable.

Um, so but now, obviously, uh, I've become wise, I've become older, and I realized the error of my ways. And and pronunciation is extremely important. And I think probably the the last thing that is maybe not so obvious is that pronunciation is not I I wouldn't say that pronunciation from from our sake is that important, but it greatly helps you understand other people. I would say your pronunciation is good enough when people can understand what you're saying, but it will also if you improve your pronunciation, it will improve your understanding of the sounds of the language, and thereby making it easier for you to understand when people speak fast or when they speak, you know, you know, some of the sentences can kind of flow together, uh, especially in French, that happens, where you're not really sure when the next word begins. But if you're really good at the pronunciation, then you you your ears are just more attuned to it. So, I think this is like a a mini revolution, in a way.

And also just the kind of input you get with music, right? If you're studying a language, let's say you're you're a beginner level, you you know a little bit, and you put on some songs that you really like, you can listen to those songs like 200 times a day, and you still like them. So, that's a lot of repetition, it's a lot of input, it's a lot of listening to the language. Whereas if you have a textbook, I mean, who can really be bothered to go through the same textbook more than, let's say, once really?

Um, but the two elements that I really also noticed about music that's very different from sort of like a more formal way, or or or maybe even, um, an audio course that gives you a lot of different examples, is that like, for example, in Spanish, they might start off with like, "Hola, ¿Cómo está usted?" Right? Like, they're talking like super slow. So, like, that connected speech, like, you don't get any of that, because they're really trying to get you to understand the words in isolation, which is great. I mean, you know, when you're a beginner, you need sort of things to be slow sometimes.

But the thing I love about music is that you really get to hear a native speaker using their language in a context, and you don't have to try to figure out like, oh, okay, well, what do they mean by that? Because, you know, it's not so robotic, right? So, like, in those examples we get in in most language courses, my experience has been that they're all super like professional or robotic, like, you know, it's like, nobody walks into a room to start a conversation like, "Hola."

But generally, especially with Latin music, 'cause it's just the way the culture is, which is something you also pick up through the music, is like the music is very emotional. Music generally is telling a story, right? Which is something else, as you know, is really good for memory, as, you know, I know, um, there's a lot of research that's been done about learning language through story. So, music has stories as well. There's usually someone talking about either heartache or a a transformational experience, or just a good time that they had. Right? Like, there's always emotion.

And when you hear language used with emotion, it's very different from hearing it in an isolated, sort of dry, you know, textbook experience where there's like no background noise, you've got this super clear recording of someone speaking very slowly and professionally, which doesn't happen in the real world, right? You're at a party, you're at a restaurant, you're out with friends, there's background noise, people are speaking at their normal rate. They may be excited because they're telling a story, they're like, "da da da da da." Right? Like, their their energy level. All of those things go into the way that you speak. And if you have never heard that before, the first time you hear it, it's like you have to almost readjust and try to fit those robotic words into the actual rhythm of the language.

So, not only with the emotion, but you also get like that connected speech in the language when you're listening to music. So, like, when you hear a phrase like, one of my favorite songs to use with beginners is a Marc Anthony song called "Vivir Mi Vida," which is just live my life. And you you learn sort of grammar naturally, like, you don't have to you don't have to someone sit down and say, all right, today we're gonna learn the simple future tense in Spanish, right? Like, he just says over and over again, "Voy a vivir," like, I'm going to live. "Voy a bailar," I'm going to dance. So, like, you kinda already pick up that pattern. And he's saying it with like all this emotion and excitement. So, you really get to hear how it sounds when someone's actually using their language. So, I think music is just so powerful, because it kind of has all of those elements that that are already kind of pre-packaged for you. And again, it's like, you get to hear that connected speech, you get to hear a language used with emotion, which you usually don't get in language courses. Or if you do, it's like super theatrical, right? Like, it's like a a like amateur high school play, right? Where it's like, "Nunca voy a hacer eso!" Like, I'm never gonna do that. Like, it just ran, you know, people don't talk like that in real life. Like, it's like a telenovela, like, where people are super dramatic, but that's just not how language sounds in the real world. So, that's another reason why I really appreciate music.

Uh, of course, we often talk about that here on the show, about the inefficiency of the school system, and obviously a big part of the, uh, the podcast aim is to spread ideas like like this that the school is terrible, and and you should really be independent about language learning and seek out better ways of doing it and and this whole idea of using it as soon as possible and and being practical. I think that's the most important thing in language learning. If it's much better to be able to go up to someone and have a a little basic conversation, then it is to know the conjugations of all the verbs or all the tenses or whatever, you know.

Um, I realized when someone asked me a question, and I wanted to say something besides just like yes, like "sí," I I wanted to say something else. I realized I didn't know how to say okay. Like, just just to confirm, like, oh, okay, like I couldn't say that in Spanish. And I was like, what the heck have I been learning?

Um, but yeah, so it was really interesting to kind of have that, you know, almost ridicule, or just kind of of that awkwardness, um, from like people that I knew in my circle. But then I would go online, and I could connect with all these people who were like language nerds like me, who are geeking out over like, oh, I learned how to say this phrase today, that's pretty awesome. Like, oh, I didn't make this mistake today. Like, just having that connection is really is really powerful, and I think the internet has really made it more accessible for us to find other people who are learning language.

So, I always say like, if you don't have anyone, especially like if you're in a small town or you're somewhere where there's not a huge community of language learners, or a huge community of people that speak the language that you're learning, you know, the internet is a great place to connect with people, well, obviously, in a safe way, right? But, um, as a female, that kind of is an issue, unfortunately, but but yeah, but just to to be able to reach out and find people who share the same passion as you do, I think that has been a a real game changer, um, in terms of the internet and just people, you know, taking control of their own language learning, and not being dependent upon, you know, an academic institution to sort of catch up with the times, um, and really figure out that they've gotta redo their curriculum. So, I think it's been a really powerful thing.

And that's, you know, that's classroom style, you know, one person speaks at a time kinda, there's never any dialogues. And it's just like, 300 hours is not that much. Like, I see a lot of people in our community who are actually counting their time, and, you know, they're much better at studying than I am, and certainly more productive. But they can easily do 300 hours with a full-time job, just on on one language, you know, so.

So, I would say go with your gut, go with your heart, go with what you love to listen to, because you're gonna be listening to this song a lot to really study it, right? To get some value out of it. And if it's something that you are kind of meh about, the chances that you're gonna get through it are are slim to none. So, I know that's not probably a more traditional approach, but, I mean, I do definitely have suggestions for, you know, if you're a beginner and you don't have a song that you already like, and you don't know where to start, I definitely have some songs that, um, you know, that I'll start out with, like, that Marc Anthony song, "Vivir Mi Vida" is a perfect example, because the language is very simple and very repetitive. So, I do have recommendations along those lines, but if you're just starting out, um, I would just say, go with something that you really love.

Uh, and start to piece that apart, because I don't know about you, but like, let's say, for instance, since we're talking about passion, not to take the analogy too far, but like, in a relationship, right? So, let's say you see someone that you really find attractive. You might just see them on the street. What is your first thought? Like, oh, I want to get to know more about them. Like, you don't care how old they are, you don't care where they're from, you don't care that they may be out of your league, or they might, you know, whatever it is. You're just sort of driven naturally to say, I want to know more about that person. So, I would think of a song the same way, right? Like, if you really love the song and you listen to it and you something about it just kind of hits you, go with it.

Um, start piecing it apart. Now, of course, depending upon, so, if like you're a beginner, and the song is super complicated, I always give people like this rule of thumb. So, let's say, you go online, you find the lyrics, and I'll talk a little later about that, too, kinda how to how to do that the right way. But, you know, you can just kinda do a search. There's a lot of sites that have lyrics, um, and you say, okay, I got the song, I got the lyrics. And you go through like the first couple lines, and you only know one or two words. That's an indication, not that you should move on to another song, but that that's where you should stop for that particular study session. So, in other words, don't be obsessed with trying to just read through the whole song right away. Go at your own pace, by your level. So, maybe you only get through two lines today, because this is the first time you've ever seen Spanish in your life, and you need to piece apart every single word, then you're only gonna go through two lines. And that's okay. You have time, and you can kind of do that, you know, one at a time, little by little, and eventually you'll get through the entire song.

So, I would say, start with something you love. Gauge, um, sort of how you study it by what your own level is naturally. And, you know, again, I really don't think the levels matter as much, because, for example, there's a lot of music that I love that's from the Caribbean. And a lot of people don't know this, 'cause I guess there people are used to sort of thinking of like Jamaica, you know, they're like, oh, you know, there people who talk like with a certain accent in English for there's patois. But people don't think that there's a lot of Spanish speakers in the Caribbean. And actually, the majority of, uh, of the Caribbean is Spanish speaking. So, it's like a little over 60%. So, it's actually the the the majority dominant language in that in that region. Most people don't don't think about that.

But, like, if that's the music that I love, right? And I've been studying Spanish from Europe. Even if I have a very high level, I may still only be able to get through two lines of that song, because there might be words in the dialect that I don't know.

Um, and unless say you do know a lot of the words, then you can kind of take a bigger chunk of the song. So, like, let's say, oh, I know all the words in the first two lines, then maybe take the whole first verse, you know, and just break it down like that. So, I always recommend chunking it down. Just like with any other learning material, when you're doing audio, kinda chunk it down and take it piece by piece. Um, and it's really cool, too, because when you love the song, you don't care how many times you listen to it. You're like, oh, I love this song.

Like, I have a friend, for example, who's a professor. So, she's been an academic her whole life. And she's like, when she's in the middle of a semester, she does not want to come home and then do anything that where she has to use her brain. So, she's already told me like, you know, I cannot learn a language right now, because like, I am already my brain is fried. Um, and a lot of us have like demanding jobs or other things that we're doing. So, but it really shifts when like what you do is you go home and you listen to music. It's like, what? I get to do that?

So, you know, so you kind of just get that material into your brain, you know, you put it on your playlist, you listen to it throughout the week. And each session, you just kind of go, um, section by section. You get some new vocabulary. However you like to study vocabulary, if you like to do flashcards or or whatever is your preference, I would do that. But I would say, you know, just listening to the song, you're gonna hear it again. So, that's really, it's just like a rinse and repeat process. You go section by section, you pull out the words that you don't know, and to really go a step further, when you when you're at a more intermediate level, I would say then to pull out some of those things and actually, you know, practice using it on your own. So, pull out some of the vocabulary from the song and just kind of figure out how you would use it in a day-to-day situation.

Um, some songs are better for that than others, right? There are some songs that are party songs.

But what I always say is, if you don't really know a lot about that culture, like, especially if you're reading a song, you're reading the lyrics to a song that may be from a country that you're not familiar with, or it's not the country that you learned your your language from. I would really suggest like looking for either a language exchange partner, or a tutor, like, you know, on a site like iTalki, or something like that, and just find someone that's from that area, um, and I usually recommend a tutor more so than a language exchange partner, because they're usually not the best translators.

Um, but have someone kinda verify what you came up with, and go through the the lyrics with them, because that's how you pick up all those like cultural nuances that you don't get on your own. So, for example, like I just kinda screamed out earlier, "Wepa!" Right? So, that's a very Puerto Rican thing to say. Like, that's not something that you're gonna hear in Spain, or in Mexico. Like, and it's it doesn't really mean anything. It's just sort of like something people say when they're excited, like, they're at a party. It's like, hey, go ahead, or whatever. It's just kinda like a random thing. But it's a very, very Puerto Rican thing. And if you're listening to like Marc Anthony or Daddy Yankee, and you're trying to like figure it out on your own, and you might like Google it and all that kind of thing, you might not really get a feel for what it means and what what the emotion is behind it.

So, I always would suggest kind of like go over it with someone. Find a tutor that's from that region that may know that song. Message them in advance and say, hey, I really want to go through this song. Like, are you okay with that? Are you familiar with it? And if they don't know that genre of music, then find someone else. Right? It's not like this cookie cutter thing where you can just like pick any, you know, any language, uh, tutor, I guess. So, I would just kind of say, find someone that that kinda connects with it, too, and can really give you a breakdown, because just reading it, you're not gonna always get it. And there's so much, like I said, of culture that's built into it, and the dialects and and different expressions that sometimes you might just want to get confirmed, you know. And I so I always recommend I mean a session with like a private tutor, just to go over it. If you've translated it yourself, or you've found a translation somewhere else, doesn't matter. Go over it with a live human being. 'Cause that's also how you practice conversation. Right? So, that's another opportunity for you to talk about about the song.

And, you know, I've also found that for me, learning through music has helped me connect with people. So, for example, um, there's this I'll just kinda quick funny story. So, there's some friends of mine here that have a party, they call it, um, Tacos and Tequila.

So, I think that, you know, it's a good way to connect with people, because you get to know like the culture, you get to know like, you know, how people grew up, and what what the meaning is for them. And it's like a it's a good conversation to have. So, when you're thinking about like, what do I talk to a tutor about? Like, I want to have a conversation. Music is amazing. It's amazing conversation topic, because people connect with it emotionally. And then they start to tell stories about their childhood, about different experiences, about their own country, about, you know, the food they eat, everything. So, it all kinda really comes out through the music.

So, I always say like, have a conversation about it. Even though it might sound forced, once you get into it, it really isn't. Music is just one of those things that just draws things out of people, um, and it and it's very, very natural. So, I would always recommend to kinda like, after you kinda do your personal breakdown, you get your vocabulary out of the way, you do some practice with it, have that conversation, and that kinda seals up the whole experience, and then you can move on to the next song.

And that's why I say to, um, to have those sessions, those private sessions, because one of the things that comes out of it is it'll start to unlock some of those things you need to learn. So, instead of going with a a prepared text, right, or, you know, a grammar book that goes through, you know, from A to Z, the things that you need to learn about this language and its grammar. From the music, you'll start to see what are the most frequently used phrases? What are the most frequently used grammar structures? And then you it's gonna force you to have to learn them, because you're gonna see it over and over again in the patterns. And that's when you get curious and you say, hey, why did they say this like this? And then naturally, your tutor will sit there and go, oh, this is the simple future. And then they can break it down for you, but now you have context.

I think learning without context is like it it doesn't really work, right? When you try to learn in a vacuum, like, if I was to learn the future tense in every conjugation of it, and every verb, and all the irregular verbs, like, today, and I don't ever have to use it, I have no context for it. It's it's nowhere until maybe this one obscure time when I have to use it 10 months from now. It's not as effective as if I have some context, some material in front of me, where I'm seeing it being used in in the real world in real time. And I go, oh, I need to understand this construction, 'cause if I don't, I can't understand the song. So, it really is a way to drive how you learn.

And then, what tends to happen, what I've noticed with people is, you know, when we usually start out learning a foreign language, we find out how much we don't know about our own language, right? Like, in terms of like grammar, you know, all those things. So, I think I learned more about English grammar learning Spanish than anything else. And what I think it does is it motivates you to actually learn that stuff that normally seems boring. Right? So, it's like, oh, now that I realize why I need to learn this, now I'll go pick up that textbook and just read that one section, a really focused, targeted section, because I need to understand this one thing, 'cause it's bugging me that I don't understand it now. So, it identifies like those gaps in your understanding and learning, and it really drives you now to want to fill that gap. Because otherwise, you just go, oh, there's too much to learn, I'm never gonna learn it all. But if you're like, oh my god, I don't understand these three lines of this song, because it's like calculus to me right now. I need to study this little piece of grammar so that I can get this particular part of the song. Like, that really does drive you.

And I will say, too, so that's one of the hardest things I think, um, in trying to get people to use music in this way, because people just think music is like an afterthought. You know, they're like, oh, it's fun. And it is fun, but I think that you can get so much more out of it if you just take the time to be curious, and to really follow your heart and follow, you know, that curiosity that you have when you were a kid, when you would just kinda see something and go, oh, look, there's a ball over there. I want to see, what is that stick doing? Like, when we get to be adults, we get to be super boring and dry. And we're just like, okay, look, I just need to get to the, you know, give me the phrases I need to know for my trip, give me the grammar points, let me figure out the the past tense, the future tense, like, you know, we approach things like super, again, super robotic in a way that is not very natural. Um, and not even natural to the way we learned our our native language. So, I think that just kind of injecting that curiosity back into language learning is is really important, and I think music kinda naturally will pull you in a way. Instead of you feeling like you have to push yourself to learn, like, it'll actually pull you to have to learn more just so you can fill those gaps in your knowledge.

And so, one of the things I started to do when I when I started working with people and helping them learn Spanish, and, you know, also ultimately got my language coaching certification, 'cause I really wanted to help people in a more natural way. I didn't want to be sort of a teacher. I want to help people sort of empower them to to navigate through their own journey. And one of the things that I did with some of the folks that I worked with early on was, we just kind of walked through sort of like a basic curriculum. So, it was like, instead of just kind of randomly picking anything out there, right? Like, I have a, you know, a particular genre that I work with. I focus like a lot on Latin American Spanish. And so, the music comes from, you know, Latin America. I do a lot of Caribbean music, because of just the dance and the culture and everything that surrounds it. And that music is worldwide now anyway. So, you know, it's it's very universal.

So, you know, I kind of start off with that, and I say, listen, let's go through this sequence, you know, let's try it this way. You know, like I said, kind of going through one section of the song at a time, you know, putting the song on your playlist, so you listen to it in your downtime, but then when you sit down to actually learn it, to just take like a 15-minutes, uh, session, go through that one section, review some of the vocab, try to use it in your own way. Um, and we kind of just kind of repeated this process. And I actually made it very targeted. So, instead of just sort of leaving it up to random chance.

Um, I actually, uh, what I did for people was extracted the parts of the song that they actually could use in a conversation. Because just like the example you gave with Frozen, you know, a lot of music can be very poetic as well. Right? Which is which is what can make it difficult to navigate if you don't sort of have a a guide, because you don't really know when it's a phrase that people say every day, or is this just something really random, weird and poetic that you'll never, ever hear in the real world? It just sounds really cute in the song, 'cause it fits in those like four bars, right? So, like, you need to kinda be able to distinguish that. And I think that's what held a lot of people back.

And that's what I did through, um, you know, eventually forming our community. It's called Spanish Con Salsa, where we just kinda go through the music in a very systematic way. And I've broken down songs that are good for beginners and good for intermediate levels, so that if you have any interest in music, and you kind of start going, it's sort of like a curated list, sort of like curated playlist, right, for for your particular level. And I and we've like actually extracted out those things that are, um, usable in conversation. So, I think that's and again, that's why I recommended it earlier to, you know, use a tutor, because you don't really know that on your own if you're just sort of reading it on the internet. So, the human connection is always, always a factor when it comes to language.

So, what we've done sort of as a community is we, you know, go through those songs in a particular order. And extract those things that can be used in conversation, so it's not a mystery. You know, and also explaining those things that are particular to a country or to a dialect, 'cause you don't always know that either, right? So, I might say, like I said earlier, like, they only say this particular word in Puerto Rico, you're not going to hear that anywhere else. That's really important to know. 'Cause like if you go on vacation to Mexico, and holiday, right? Like, and you're, you know, going, "Wepa!" They might look at you like, what are you doing?

But when you listen to the song, it's like super upbeat. Like, it's a party song, and you would never think that it was this powerful story about history, about Afro-Latino history, and all of this stuff. And I think, you know, as a black person in America, like, for me to connect with that part of like Afro-Latino culture, like, I didn't know they had those stories. You know, I I thought that was just unique to the US. Like, I, you know, at the time, I was very naive, and I think, you know, when we start to really delve into it and learn about the people, we really get that in the music in a way that you don't get it anywhere else.

So, you know, I always walk people through the example and say, listen, this is an important part of, you know, and it informs sort of who those people are even today. You know, I was just in Cartagena in January, and there's a statue for Joe Arroyo there. You know, and I went to go see it, and like some of the lyrics from that song are like painted on the wall. They have like a whole plaza for him. So, like, having that connection, as a, you know, and it just kinda traveling there was like super powerful for me, because it's a song I've loved and I've been dancing to for years, and like, to see that like in person, you know, is like a a very enriching experience. And you don't get that when you're just like looking at grammar. You know what I mean? Like, that's a whole other level.

So, but yeah, so, you know, I again, I always suggest like, have a guide, you know. Don't go at it alone. I know a lot of us like to learn independently. I do, too, you know. I'm an introvert, but I think, you know, relying on someone else's expertise, relying on someone to guide you, to coach you through it, um, a tutor, whoever it is that, um, can kind of help you get through and navigate through some of that, really makes it a lot easier to digest.

So, yeah, the way that I use music is a little bit different. Um, I don't just use it as like a game or like a fun thing, although it is fun. We really sit down and kind of go through, how can you use this in conversation? Here's the grammar that's in this song. And let's sort of break down some of the examples, but in a natural way. You know, not in a forced way. So, we've been doing that for a few years now, and we've had some folks in the community that have gone through it, and they're like, wow, I didn't even realize like, I could have a conversation, 'cause I was just having so much fun while I was learning. You know what I mean? Which is awesome. Like, that's how you want it to be. You don't want it to be like, oh, I I've been learning Spanish for two years. It's been the hardest thing I've ever done, but I'm glad I got through it. Like, like you've been through a war.

Um, like it's just been really gratifying to hear people say, you know, I've been having so much fun. And I'm realizing it's getting easier, because the same thing happened for me. You know, it's how I just naturally started learning, but I didn't even realize how much it was helping me until other people would notice like, oh, your accent's actually not that bad. You know, and I would go, really? So, you know, it's it's those little things that you pick up just from kind of naturally mimicking the sounds, from getting that exposure to the culture, from staying motivated, because it's like there's always something more interesting to delve into. There's a new story, there's a new rhythm, there's a new genre of music that you may not have known about. There's a new artist. You know, it's always, always, uh, evolving and giving you new sounds and new things to delve into. So, I think it's really helpful, especially if you're, you know, have a musical background, or you just happen to love music. I think trying it out, um, you know, it's it's it's worth a try at least, right?