Benson Hoi: Programming and language learning

Actual Fluency Podcast, Episode 43 with Benson Hoy. Welcome to the Actual Fluency Podcast. The podcast that gives you the tools and inspiration to learn languages faster and more efficiently. And now your host, Kris Broholm.

Doing great. I'm still in the office and then I have got a meeting room to myself. Talking to you right now.

Fantastic. We're having a meeting, a language meeting.

Yeah, well, everyone has left the office already, so it should be fine. Hopefully no one, hopefully no one wants to do a 6:30 meeting.

No, it's a little late for that, isn't it? But, um, if you could, uh, start out by just giving the listeners a little introduction to yourself, take a few moments to give us your story, like, uh, how did you get into learning languages and, you know, get into programming as well?

So, a mini bio. I was born in Macau, China, just next to Hong Kong, and it was a Portuguese colony. So my mother tongue is Cantonese, a Chinese dialect. And then from age three, I learned English, and then from age 11, I learned Mandarin. From age 12, uh, we learned, uh, Portuguese at school, etc, etc. And then, but then my love for languages began at quite a young age. I remember that, uh, for example, I don't know, when I was going to kindergarten or something, my mom was giving me some flashcards to learn Apple, orange, and stuff like that and I really enjoyed it. Uh, and so even from a very young age, I really, I really enjoyed learning languages.

Cool. And how did you, did you, I did you do it on your own or did you study it at uh, at in university?

Um, I I intentionally chose not to study languages at university because, um, I felt that it is it is actually more effective to learn it at the at, um, at the target country once I have the chance. And I figured that, um, doing an engineering, mathematics, computing degree would enable me to to have quite a lot of job opportunities around the world. And and that is what I'm doing now. Um, so I've worked in London for a few years after my master in joint mathematics and computing from Imperial College London. Just in case any listeners from there send me a hi. And then, so I've worked in London for a few years and then I and then I got enough, accumulated enough work experience and now I can sort of travel around the world while doing programming, while immersing myself in the language of the target country. So that is so I'm I'm sort of living my dream.

That's that's so cool because a lot of people ask me, well, I say a lot of people but I've had at least a a dozen emails about people asking me, Kris, I want to I want to travel the world and learn languages, but I don't know how. And of course, I always tell them, well, you have a native language, right? You could teach that over the internet or in a local area. And but as you've just told us, programming. So, so talk us about uh the opportunity of programming. If people are sitting out there considering a degree for for university or getting into. And is is can you recommend it for aspiring language learners or?

Yes. Uh, they have spoken languages and programming language have both have both got the word language. So by definition, a language is nothing but syntax plus semantics. Syntax is the way we arrange the words, the elements of the language, and the semantics is the meaning we give it. So you will see, actually, funnily enough, I'm actually doing a Korean programming exchange with a French guy. And the some French guy is who is completely fluent in Korean is teaching me, um, is teaching me Korean, and I'm teaching him programming languages. And then because he's a, um, the guy that I'm, um, having the exchange with is quite an accomplished polyglot, much more accomplished than me. So I use a lot of language learning, um, analogy to explain concepts in programming. And then you will actually see, if you you you sort of see the two together, you will start to see parallels of grammar, vocabulary, syntax, semantics, pragmatics, all the terms that you can find in linguistic textbooks, you you can find the parallel in in, uh, programming language.

Cool. And how how much, uh, let's say training or education does it take to be where you are, you know, capable of working from anywhere and being a a I guess it's a freelance programmer?

Um, the theory that I came up with five seconds ago is it takes exactly the same amount of time to be a confident speaker in language X. Where language X is not related to your mother tongue. So, let's say, I don't know, some Russian speaker trying to learn Chinese, it takes N years, N months. So it's exactly, I think it's similar sort of effort.

But can you do it with just one language? Is that enough? I've heard from other people that you you kind of need a little a few programming languages to be

It's exactly the same as, um, I like the, okay, let's use the spoken language analogy. So suppose, okay, let's say, let's pick the, let's pick the one of the most popular programming language, Java. And you do know Java, you can sort of more or less program in C#, and other languages which are related. And so you can consider them, consider them to be from the same language family. I mean, if you speak Spanish, I mean, speaking Italian is sort of something that you can you can learn in a couple of weeks, if months, if not weeks. So it's exactly the same. So then, if people once once someone is very good at one programming language of a particular type, um, so I won't go into the details, but it's very easy to pick up very similar ones. It's exactly the same as it's the analogy as, let's say, the languages in a romance, in a romance language family.

And you could do it independently as well, and what what would be your suggestion for the go-to, uh, language? Would that be Java?

Um,

That's what they said in my school when I was doing it, uh, a few years ago.

Uh, it depends. I mean, it depends, okay. So picture yourself whether you like to work on the user interface side, for example, um, in terms of jobs available, there are lots of jobs available for web programming, in the sense of you can design the the page, and and then you and then you write JavaScript to give it some some dynamic behavior. And then so that that is JavaScript. So, but then learn it properly, don't just copy and paste stuff from examples.

Cool. Nice.

Wow.

I never.

If you find the right resources, it's quite, uh, it is something. So in 20 hours, from zero experience, you can write a very simple, um, Toki Pona translator.

Sure. And and what I, I mean, there's so many resources about programming on the internet as well, just like language learning. In fact, I I didn't even consider how similar learning programming and learning a natural language is, actually. 'Cause it it just fits so well, all the analogies, uh, I I think.

Actually, I mean, I actually I I like anything with the word language in it, so spoken languages, programming languages, body language is something I'm fascinated about. Mathematics, the mathematical language is also fascinating. So that is something that I've got a joint master in. And yeah, anything with the word language, I mean, I'm fascinated by.

Yeah, that's so cool. Um, moving on from programming a little bit, I think we uh, I think we gave a a thumbs up if people are interested in uh, in pursuing that career. Um,

And actually, just uh, just a small uh, note, uh, Yeah, go for it. They are tons and tons of resources in the internet, and then after this uh, podcast, uh, this show, this recording, I will recommend one particular one, just to help you to choose, I mean, there are billions to choose from, not billions, there are thousands to choose from. And then I'll just give you, I'll just recommend you a short list of a couple, and then you can then start with one of them. So sort of, just to get you started.

Yeah, cool. I'll put them in the show notes uh, on the website. Um, one thing that I uh, used to talk a lot about on the podcast is specifically how to learn a language, the nitty gritty sitting at the desk or in front of your computer, doing the sort of the sweat hours, you know, putting in the the real hard work that leads to the high results. In the last couple of episodes, I haven't really had a chance to uh, to talk much about specific methods. So I so I thought I'd ask you. If you're learning a language, which you are, what's your uh, desk routine so to speak? What's your sort of uh, tools and essential resources that you look for in order to optimize the learning process?

Um, Some people say that people don't really change, um, from age three you can tell how they will be at age 30, 90. And from when I was three, I really liked flashcards. So I haven't really grown out of that. So I still really like flashcards. So years ago it was Anki, now it's Memorize. And so, but then it changes over the years, but I still, I really like some form of flashcards.

Do you make them do yourself also or do you use the

Yes, it changes over the years. Some some phase in my life I like to do paper ones, and some phase in my some other phase in my life I like Anki, some other phase I like Memorize, it changes, but to me it's they're all the same, really.

Right. Is it important that you make them the memorized yourself or is it okay to use sort of, you know, the pre-made courses, a thousand basic words of Korean or whatever they, the beginner ones are usually called?

So for me it's whatever works for you, really. I mean, it's like, what is the best exercise? It's the one that you actually do. So if you like paper, then do paper. If you like, um, if you like, uh, electronic, then do electronic. I'm sure we've we've had we've we've all heard of a lot of discussions and comparisons between the two. And actually, I would say do both because and this in that case you'll have no excuse not to do it.

Right. That's cool. What other resources do you use to because I also like memorized a lot and I when I learned for instance Esperanto, I would do almost nothing but. And I ended up with uh, let's say a few problems. Uh, what do you do to sort of fix the gaps and learn the grammar of a language and and how it it's connected together?

I use Memorize as well. Actually, I can I can drill I can learn I learned um, there was some article that I read a few weeks ago about some how some guy learned French from ABC to reading Harry Potter or something in 17 days. One of the thing that he did was he copied out the verb tables every day for hours, which I think is a cool idea. I haven't done it for I haven't actually done it myself. So what I did and then I and then I did, well, I took that idea and then I created um, lots of, uh, Memorize entries in my Spanish list to to remind myself some of the less used tenses and some of the irregular conjugations. So some sometimes they'll get wrong. So maybe if I'm starting to learn a new language, I don't know, let's say, actually, no, there are very few languages that I haven't touched. So, I don't know. If someone if Chris if Chris created a language called Chrisin, and then I want to and then it has got it resembles human languages and then I'll then use this I'll just create um, create entries on Memorize to learn this Chrisin language.

Right. So what what would your entries be? Would they be grammar rules, sentence examples, or like uh, talk us through the the technical aspects.

Okay. So one of my current experiments is to learn a language from scratch using from day one using authentic material and for example, I haven't used Portuguese for 20 years and it's just maybe less than that, somewhere between 10 and 20. And I've forgotten it. But it's very similar to Spanish and fairly similar and quite similar to French.

Extances or?

Extances of poems, aren't they? I don't know. Uh, I think extances as well. I don't know.

We'll look it up. We'll look it up. I don't know. I don't know something anyway. Verses maybe? I don't know. No, verses a line. Yeah.

Yeah. Some between a verse and

Never mind. Lots of uh sentences.

Okay, lots of sentences.

Yeah. And then back in the days when I was fascinated by Anki, and then that is one thing called cloze, c l o z e. So I do exactly that. So what that means is that I take the first stanza, or whatever the correct term is, and then I erase one or two words from it. I put a question mark and then I put the memorize answer. So in that way, I actually learned the whole song.

Wow, that's very interesting. Um, I like I like the uh, the method. Uh, one concern I I I must ask you about is that songs are usually using quite uh, sort of different language from spoken language because you have to fit it with the are you not worried that you're learning, let's say, words that you might never hear in real life?

No, actually, start with the, start with Frozen. The lyrics, I somehow figure that most of the words I can somehow chuck into a normal conversation.

All right. Okay, so that was part of your

Start with Disney songs. They are they relate to real life.

Right.

Well, they're for children after all and children are children songs are not exactly very abstract.

So they relate to real life when, you know, you get cast a spell on you or something and your sister turns into a frost frost queen or something. That often happens.

Yeah. But then we can the whole the whole my sort of What I really like is to be creative about each sentence. For example, from the first stanza of of um let it go, I can say things like, deep inside me, I have the yearning to learn languages, which is just a variation of the lyrics from Let It Go. And then it's really I mean, we can we my I can actually learn a lot of grammar from Let It Go.

Right. Did you did you do that or was that next up in the experiment?

Uh, no, no, no. I actually, um, a wacky thing that I'm doing on I talk I is that, um, I have got a Portuguese teacher, and then we are now we are going through the Let It Go lyrics, and then I create wacky sentence from the from the structure that I've just learned from Let It Go. And I can actually say quite a lot of things.

Oh, that's cool.

We can I, my theory is that when I finish the whole song and master every single grammar point in it, as well as learn some related, um, vocabularies, I can actually have a fairly intelligent conversation.

Uh, just one song.

Just one song. Just one song. Because in this, I'm not sure about, well, we a lot of tenses are there, a lot of, um, all parts of speech are involved, obviously. And and then obviously, there are lots of wacky, there are lots of wacky inversions, but then we can then if we understood we also have to understand that they are inversions and we have to make sure we don't speak in inversions, otherwise, we sound like crazy. So, but then if we understand the inversion, it helps us understand the natural, uh, sentence order. So my theory that it can work, but I've only been doing it for a few weeks, so I don't know. I will report.

That's yeah, the report back with that. But that's why they call it experiments, you know, you test things out and that's also what I'm doing. You know, I'm I'm trying to find out what works for me and I guess that's the sentiment that I'm hoping to get across to the listeners, well, is that just because I'm asking like you today for instance about how you learn languages, we're not trying to say that this is what you should be doing everyone, but we're trying to sort of inspire uh maybe not a change, but at least try something different. And maybe it works great for you or maybe it fails miserably, like uh, you know, I tried doing Gold listing, the uh, doing the vocabulary learning by hand, and I just I just couldn't do it. It just wasn't my personality. I was craving memorized.

Yeah, I was exactly I was doing exactly the same thing. Just six, actually, no, just two months ago, three months ago, I was I was trying Gold listing method for a while. I just gave up. It's just not my thing. And then I and then I started copying my Gold my Gold listing method entries into my Memorize course now.

Right. Yeah, make it make it work uh, that way. Um, well, so cool. And um, did you one thing that I I want to talk to you about as well is is it's very popular right now to learn Chinese.

Yes.

And I know that you did you worked on uh, Cantonese Pod?

Yes. Um, it was an experiment, um, during my degree and some of them has got tens of thousands of episodes, actually, uh, of listeners for certain episodes. So it was it was at that at some stage it was the most popular Cantonese learning podcast.

Cool. And uh, you know, obviously Chinese is is a very popular language to learn right now in the community. It seems like everyone is doing Chinese these days. Um, what can you what can you give us any tips or or tricks, uh, for learning, uh, Cantonese?

Uh, yes. I'm actually creating a course for for Chinese, both Mandarin and Cantonese. I will start with Cantonese because there are tons of resources already out there for Mandarin. Then then, so creating one for Cantonese. And then, so the point to to okay. So the way that I tend to teach Cantonese or Mandarin for that matter is to use analogy to learn the tones. Okay, let me um, can I go into the details? Or because it's quite short. I can explain it in one minute.

Yeah, go for it.

Okay. So, um, put yourself into a story. For example, this one I somehow I took from somewhere and then I forgot the source. But, but then I modified it a little bit. So imagine you are at you're going to a dentist. So the dentist asks you to open your mouth and you say, uh.

All right.

So that is the first tone. So, imagine that is this is the first thing that you do when you go to the dentist. And then, okay, the second thing that the dentist says, uh, said, okay, your tooth X, Y, Z has got problems. And then you don't understand and you say, huh? So that is the second tone for you. And then so there is some cavity on your teeth because you have not been cleaning and you've been naughty. So now the dentist, um, has to drill. So, uh, and then when it is drilling, he hit your nerves, and then you shout, huh? And then because it really hurts. So, right now you have got the four tones in in Mandarin. Ma, ma, ma, ma. All you have to remember is to remember the sequence of going to the dentist. And then there you go. You have learned the four tones.

Cool. That's a nice nice little story. And of course for for Cantonese you just uh, expand the story a little bit or

Uh, for Cantonese, I haven't quite worked out the story yet, uh, but then something I can create something similar because Cantonese have got more tones and it's slightly different tones, but I'm sure I can, I can find, uh, I can create a similar story. But then actually, just uh, just for those who are interested, Cantonese is slightly more musical than Mandarin. It corresponds to if you are a musician, it corresponds to chords on on whatever instrument. I don't know, let's say a dominant chord from C to G, do so, do so, that is exactly one, um, that is one tone, one tone variation in in Cantonese. So you can actually learn um, Cantonese from, um, musicality. Is that a word? From a music, uh, musical perspective as well. So for those who like stories, learn with the story method. For for those who already play piano, guitar, violin, whatever instrument, you can directly approach it from a musical perspective.

Oh, yeah, that's cool. That's cool. And um, you know, a few weeks ago I had uh, or maybe it's a little bit longer, a few months ago, maybe I had uh, somebody called Victor on here uh, from Norway, and uh, he speaks Cantonese and Mandarin. And he suggested people start with Cantonese if they're interested in learning both of them. Is that your view as well?

Yes, I feel that because it you learn you'll learn more tones in the beginning, you will have less problem to, well, if you can do a language with seven tones, there's no it's much easier to learn a language with four tones later.

Right.

If you don't learn to if if I actually, let me I've I've got a new theory. So suppose you you start your, uh, someone's mother tongue is from a language with a very rich phonology. Let's say, Russian has got or any Slavic language. It has got way more way more, um, different sounds than a very phonologically deprived language, let's say, Japanese. So someone someone who is a Russian native speaker can learn a lot of other languages much easier than a Japanese speaker.

Hmm.

So if you speak English ignoring prepositions, it is similar to speaking Chinese with no tones.

Right.

It's very it's not it's doesn't work because I don't less speak English as an example. There are lots of prepositional phrase. It just doesn't work.

No.

It just we just can't ignore it.

Exactly. You need to focus on it and and try to imitate and improve.

But yeah, and then so, uh, just pimmping for my future product. So, um, I will provide a free taster to my course for the first 20 listener who sign up to the list.

Right. And uh, this is for Cantonese and Mandarin?

For Cantonese first and then the Mandarin will be available later. But then, yeah, the first 20 people who join my list will get products for free.

And where can they uh, where can they find you and uh, find out more about this?

Okay. I have just, uh, at lunchtime today, I created, uh, okay. So my site is BensonHoy.com. Benson B E N S O N, Hoy H O I, .com/ podcast. And in there, there will be links to join a Facebook group, um, close Facebook group and then inside I will then post all these freebies for for listeners.

Cool, great. And um, one one last question that I I like to ask, uh, usually is if you could go back to your 10-year-old self or eight-year-old self and give give him some advice about languages and language learning, what would be your number one advice?

Um, I don't think I can actually give any advice because my theory, my theory is that if we haven't if we haven't had this situation to learn a particular lesson, we won't actually learn it. So, if a child hasn't fallen, he will not walk. Exactly. We have to fail. We just we have to fail in all the possible in all the way so before we can actually acquire a particular skill. But the thing is to fail fast.

Right. So make lots of mistakes.

Yeah. Make make lots of mistakes. Maybe that is something that I would say. But then, maybe 10 years ago, I haven't made enough mistakes to to understand this lesson anyway. So,

No, it does I you know, just because we're telling your your old self uh these things doesn't mean that he or she is going to be able to use it for anything. It's just a fun experiment.

No, I think I think a lesson is a lesson that has to be has to be in context. Just some naked wisdom doesn't quite work in my from my from from my opinion.

Of course. So make a make a lot of mistakes is uh, I guess you can say you're uh, your go-to if you had to pick one.

Yep.

Well, fantastic. Well, it's been a lot of fun, uh, talking to you today, Benson, but, uh, as with all good things, they must come to an end. And, uh, I just want to thank you for coming on the show and and sharing your tips and tricks and stories with us.

Uh, cool. Can I add uh, say some, okay. So, do join this uh, group on Facebook and then I will provide interesting resources. And then after that, in particular, I'm looking for people to practice recently Vietnamese, Korean, and Portuguese. So, and then if you are interested in talking with me, especially if you speak these languages, you are very welcome. But anyone is welcome to contact me anyway. And then and then the second thing, uh, if you go to BensonHoy.com/languages, you will see the 25 languages that I have, um, somehow studied, uh, more than a few days. And then, so if you if we have languages in common, do reach out as well. Especially those, yeah. But then do reach out anyway.

Cool. Sure. I'll uh, I'll put, uh, these links that you just mentioned in the show notes and, uh, uh, best of luck with the with the courses. I I'll be interested to look at them.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for listening to the Actual Fluency podcast. For more information, be sure to check out actualfluency.com. Until next time, enjoy learning and have a great day.