Tetsu Yung: Raising Multilingual Children

This is the actual fluency podcast, helping you become a better language learner by providing motivating weekly inspiration, as well as top tips and tricks from expert guests. And now, your host, Kris Broholm.

All right, everyone, we're back with another episode of the actual fluency podcast, and on the show today, I'm joined by Tetsuo Young, who's going to talk about raising children, multilingually, multilingually, racing small polyglots basically. And we're also going to talk about the upcoming North American Polyglot Symposium, which is going to be very interesting. But first of all, Tetsuo, welcome to the show.

Oh, thank you, Chris. Thank you. I'm very honored to be on here. How are you doing here?

Well, really good. I'm, I'm, you know, it's morning here. It's a great, beautiful day, and, uh, it's not too cold in, uh, Canada. So, Fantastic. It's always a good start. When it's not too cold, that's a, that's Canadian positivity right there. That's right. So, uh, before we get into, uh, today's topic of raising children multilingually, why don't you give a, a story of how you got into languages, which I presume had have been at a, at a very young age.

Yes. Um, to really start from the beginning, I was born in Hong Kong. That's as early as I can go. And my father is Taiwanese. My mother is Japanese. So, they met in Hong Kong and, and I was born there, but shortly after, I was back in Taiwan. The whole family moved back. And so, uh, in Taiwan, I was, I grew up speaking Mandarin to my father, that's the official language in Taiwan, and, uh, I spoke Japanese with my mother, uh, living in Taiwan. So, those two languages are no-brainer.

Then, uh, in Taiwan, there's a, there's other minor, well, I would say not, not languages, but there's dialects and, and stuff, like Hakka, spoken by my father's side, there's Taiwanese, which is a very big language in, in Taiwan, spoken in the streets, uh, all my neighbors and friends. Uh, so, right away, from young age, I was exposed to many of these different languages. I've always had to switch around depending on who I was talking to.

And when I was, uh, six, my parents decided to send me to an American school, so that's where I got my English. And when I, when I graduated from that elementary school, uh, moved to Canada, and to, to, to Quebec. That's where the French comes in. So, by the time I was 13, I was exposed to my fifth, uh, well, I guess that was fifth, you know, sometimes it's a loose count, depending on which, whether we count Hakka and stuff as languages or major languages. Uh, I usually say I have five languages.

So, so the main ones are English, French, Chinese, Japanese, and, and Spanish, which I picked up later. But with these other minor languages, Hakka, and, and Taiwanese, which I can use when I go back to Taiwan, uh, it, it all brings up to about eight, nine, ten languages with including other languages that I studied at the university, like, uh, like, uh, German, Italian, Portuguese, which I never claim that I can speak them because I really don't. I know them academically to a certain degree, but I don't really converse with them very, very well.

So, that's how I came, so how it came about these, these different languages. Some academically learned, some, but mostly the ones that I use that I consider myself fluent in, I've, I've really have absorbed them, sort of, you know, based on how I was raised. And that's really an important aspect, I think.

Right. Uh, do, do you know if that's a, it's a common thing in Taiwan to, to grow up with this kind of two-language system, or do, do you think most people are?

Well, no. Well, most people in Taiwan speak Mandarin and Taiwanese. Okay. I think 70, 70 to 75% of the people in Taiwan speak Taiwanese also. Uh, and then their regional dialect like Hakka and, and that kind of stuff. Sure. So, So, um, like many Asian countries, there, there're very keen on English education, like now in recent years, I guess. All these English, uh, cram schools. Uh, but, but essentially, it's just Mandarin and Taiwanese. These are the two major languages that, that people grow up with.

All right, cool. And as a, as a child, did you, did you feel say different, or do you have any kind of multilingual memories of, uh, of growing up in, with, with two, let's say, pretty different, uh, native languages at the same time?

I, I never really thought about it. It's just reality. Right. So, by the time I, you know, like my earliest memories, uh, would be, I don't know, three or four. I, I would still, I would remember myself talking in in Japanese to my mother, Mandarin with my father, you know, Hakka with my grandparents and aunts, and, uh, Taiwanese in the streets. Uh, it, it, you know, I, I never remembered how I learned. I, I just remembered speaking them, you know. So,

That's super interesting because when you look outside in, it's, it's just, it's almost like, uh, well, at least for many countries, it's, it's like, how are they doing that? What are they putting in the water, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I, I could ask you the same thing. Do you remember when you started learning Danish? Uh, no, uh, I mean, nobody thinks about when they first learned their native language. Right. Because, you know, you just picked it up as an infant. Um, so that's how it is with these languages. I do remember when I wasn't able to speak English because I only started English when I went to the American school that I told you about, uh, when I was six. So, I do remember being very anxious, or very, you know, um, about going to that school. I, well, I was worried. I was asking my parents, uh, you know, these guys do speak Mandarin, right? You know, some, somewhere in my, my little head, I was just praying and hoping that I could still communicate with, in Mandarin somehow. Um, but that wasn't the case because these were all foreign kids who were there, so most of them didn't speak Mandarin. Of course.

So you remember not being, I remember not being able to speak it and then picking it up, you know, so going to school, right? When you, uh, when you're an adult and you wanna learn languages and you're like, hmm. Yeah. How do I, how do you do this the best way and you think back to just, it just kinda happened, you know.

It's like, exactly, exactly. I don't remember how I learned English. It's like, I went to class and I played video games and suddenly I just spoke English at a young age, and it's like, yeah. Where does it come from? Where's the, I guess we are so biologically tuned to the fact that when you're young, you need to get those languages quickly, otherwise you're never gonna make it, I guess. I don't know. I don't know where it comes from.

Well, I mean, kids, right? They, they, they get together and even, even though they don't speak, you know, even when they're like one or two, when they just start walking, they start interacting and, and they don't speak per se, but they do, they do know that they want that Tonka truck, you know, from the other kid. They're gonna go in and, and do whatever they can, whether it's wrestling or, or speaking or doing something. And that's how they communicate and, and they fight and, and and they play together and, and they just sort of learn together and absorb it. It's the lack of fear in a way that, you know.

Big, big word, yeah. When we grow up, we sort of learn to, I guess, control our inner child and become,

Yeah. sort of withdrawn in a way, just relaxed and we don't,

You're right. You're absolutely right. I think this fear is a, is a huge element. So, so children, you know, they don't know. They are fearless, man.

Yeah, they just don't know. Just use whatever they have and, and they, they speak it and they use it. And, and all the language textbooks will tell you to do this. Practice and practice and use it and use it. But, but usually people are reserved to use a, a language until they have a certain proficiency. And, and I guess that's, that's what's really different with kids. You know, when, when they have five words, they use those five words and they just, they just do it, right?

Right, yeah. It, it's, it's so crazy to think about how, how scared, scary it is to be an adult in a way because we're conditioned to the fact that we can't just ask any question we want all the time and, you know, we have to not interrupt everyone when they're speaking and, That's right. There's like all these social, uh, principles that we're, we're blocked by.

But I'm, I'm just thinking about this, how serious it is actually is because, I guess there, you know, there are two categories of people, you, you have people who are mainly extroverts and people who are mainly introverts. And extroverts might find it easier to just go out and use those five words they have, but if somebody like me, who's introverted, primarily, I don't like to put myself in a box, but primarily, I mean, I get scared of the idea of going down and ordering something in, in Hungarian, even though I can do it. And even if I can't do it, I mean, what's the worst that's gonna happen, you know? They're gonna look at me weird and they're gonna be like, uh, another, uh, it's going wrong, you know. Mostly not, but and, and, and it doesn't even help by, uh, after practice because I, I, I like Subways, my favorite fast food. And I, there's a Subway just around the corner and I go there maybe once a week or something. And so now I can order, I can do the whole process in Hungarian now, but there are still some days where I go down there and I have this fear and I just, I just, it's almost a panic, you know, where I just, like, oh my God, what if I say something wrong? And so, even with practice, I feel like it doesn't go away. So,

Yeah, it probably never will. It probably never will.

Well, I can just get better, I guess.

Exactly. Uh, I mean, it, it's, um, it's a gradient, right? It'll, it'll be less and less as you, as you progress, I assume.

Right. But then you need it less and less too, though. So, that's kind of, when you, when you're good enough to not have fear, you probably have such a good language that you don't really learn anything by doing it anyway. So, uh, yeah, I just find it a really fascinating topic because people constantly talk about, oh, how, uh, oh, you should learn languages as a kid, which is obviously a complete myth. Uh, or like, we should, we should learn languages like a kid, which a lot of people say is impossible. And a lot of people try to recreate sort of the environment, but it's just a very interesting discussion on how adults can, can learn something from kids, I guess, in a way.

Yeah. Um, you know, there are, from what I've read, there are biological, physiological differences, apparently, in the brain. Like for kids to be able to absorb and, and learn languages better. Um, maybe it's true, maybe it's not. I'm not, you know, I'm not saying it is one way or the other. Probably is, but either way, from my own experience growing up like this, and from what I see in my children now, uh, I'm just gonna believe that children are better somehow to learn languages. Oh yeah, yeah. And, uh, whether, whether it's physiological or psychological, um, whatever the barrier is that, you know, we'll maybe one day be able to clarify and have adults learn just as well as kids, um, at least for my own kids and for myself, I, I, I can say that it doesn't hurt to just start early. Just,

Right. Yeah. And there's no denying that kids are, are probably better at language acquisition than adults in general, but the point is that some adults use it as an excuse to not learn a language because they say,

Yeah, correct.

Oh, I can't learn because I'm not a kid anymore.

Yeah. That's, that's kinda the excuse that, not true. Not true. Because, uh, you know, that, that would be like saying, oh, uh, Benny can, Benny Lewis can learn, uh, whatever language in three months and have a conversation with locals and I need to have six months, so, you know, if I'm, if, if, you know, there's a difference in how adults can learn, then it doesn't really matter how bad you are because you will eventually learn it, right? So, it's not about speed, it's, it's just about doing. But,

That's right.

Anyways, still interesting to, to really look at how kids learn and see if there's any coin we could do. And I think the, the just use it mentality, the lack of fear and the inquisitive nature of, of their minds is, is really because they wanna know everything, right? They ask,

Yeah.

all the questions, like, what's that? What's that? What's that? What's that? And that translates to language, I guess, because they're like, hmm, what does that word mean? How does that word work with that word? And so, I don't know, maybe we should just be more curious in general.

Agreed. Agreed. So, um, I guess that's a, that could be your next, next projects when, when the kids grow up. You could have like, how to learn languages like a kid.

Um, I, I wouldn't be the first one to study that. Right. Um, there, I, I'm sure there's like hundreds of academics out there who've been trying to decipher it. And they, you know, a lot of them go into the neuroscience. Um, a lot of them go into the, uh, the, the psychology of it. Um, and, and I'm, I'm just, I'm no expert, um, in any of that. Uh,

It's a tough field.

Tough field. It is. It is. And, uh, I guess for me, what's important is not really to know how a car works. If I can drive it, that's, that's what's important. So, I, I see the results. Right. Um, and, and that's how I'm gonna do it with, with respect to what, how I raise my kids.

All right. Well, let's get into that because, uh, you have a, uh, you've written a book, uh, on Amazon on how to raise kids bilingually. So, I guess we should get into that topic of, or multilingually, sorry. Um, so what's the first thing that people should sort of think about if, let's say, they have, they have a, a kid, maybe it's one year or less than one year old, and they want to just to sort of bring their kid up with as many languages as possible. So, what, what are the first steps they should consider?

Um, okay. There's various angles to that. I wanna take just a second to really analyze your question well. Sorry. No. I mean, uh, there's one thing is what we talked about a bit earlier. How, which languages to choose and why. Um, because I wouldn't, I'm not a big fan of, like you said earlier also, of going for quantity only. Right. Um, there's a specific reason why you pick certain languages. A lot of them, very simple. It's like your native language. You want to use your own native language to speak with your kid. All right. Of course.

But other ones, you know, it's the language of education in the, in the country where you're living. It is the language of your spouse. Uh, it is, uh, there's other like economical reasons. For example, um, you know, learning English. It's a very important commercial language in the world, so we want my, you know, you want your kids to learn that. Uh, there's various reasons. Whatever it is, I guess, first, know which ones you wanna learn and for what reasons. That, that gives you the motivation to continue. Right. You know, whenever you face an obstacle, you go, ah, maybe it's not that important after all.

Yeah, you wouldn't wanna go there. You know, I was just doing it for fun anyways, you know, that kind of thing.

Right. Some, some parents might be overly ambitious and say, like, I want, I want my kid to learn ten languages and

Exactly.

That's right. It's kind of like Not that they can't. But, you know, you trade off depth for, for width sometimes. Um, but you can go pretty wide. Like I'm, I'm raising my kids to speak five languages and I, I think, uh, I, I, you know, for my living context, uh, I can do it pretty well. So, so I do it and and and I have a specific reason for each of the languages that I'm teaching them.

Right. Because once you teach your child five languages and they grow up in this sort of multilingual environment, they, they might naturally get the, uh, the interest later to add on five more languages or whatever.

Absolutely. As many as they want. But it's, uh, it's a very free choice and if they get into, you know, music and stuff, whatever, you know, they got five languages, so, it's still better than 99% of the world, uh, or at least more languages than 99% of the world. So,

That's right. So,

So, that, that, that I think it is the first point, know which languages you wanna learn and, uh, you wanna teach your kids and then, and then just go for it early. Like when I say early, I mean from the, from the time you know that your wife is, you know, pregnant. When you talk to your kids, you know,

Yeah, I mean, that's how I did it.

Um, even before they were born, when I was talking to the, to my wife's tummy, um, I would use Mandarin because I decided I was gonna be, uh, covering Mandarin. Uh, and, uh, she was gonna do Japanese. And we're gonna, you know, different languages will come at different times. Uh, and this brings me to another important point. You know, other So, we've talked about first, which languages, then, uh, talked about going early. Like as early as possible, just, just start using it. Um, even though some people say, oh, they can do it when they're six or whatever. I, I, I start early even before they know how to talk because that's, they've all, they're already absorbing it.

Yeah. And then third point is what is called OPOL, OPOL, one person, one language. Okay. Okay. Just because I can speak five languages, I don't switch around. I, I cover Mandarin. Strategically, I use Mandarin only with my kids. So, they talk, when they, whenever they talk to me, it'll be in Mandarin. Right. It's a very natural thing. They would, they could be talking to my wife for an hour on whatever in Japanese. When I walk into the room, they turn back and they go, hey, papi. Ni hao. You know. It's a very natural channels that, that gets formed in their heads.

Um, and it's, um, it's a, it's a habit that you develop. Because if you start switching around or if you do things like, uh, Monday is English day and, uh, Tuesday is, uh, Japanese day and that kind of stuff, uh, it, it's an artificial setting which makes it difficult. I, I mean, in my opinion, uh, you can do it, of course. It, it's, it's okay if that's your strategy. But for me, in, in my context, I've, I've, I guess I have a job that is really not related to languages. I have a, you know, living context that's not really evolving around language learning. I, I, I mold the language learning to my life, so to say. So, so, uh, so that's, uh, that's the thinking behind not having language as a very artificial thing that you do, I mean, the language learning part.

So, um, so instead, I make an environment that allows the children to absorb languages naturally without really thinking about it. Um, they know that when they talk to daddy and grandpa, it's in Mandarin. They know that when they talk to mommy and grandma, it's in Japanese. They know that when they go to, uh, their daycare, everybody speaks French. You know. They, we have an au pair here. She's Mexican. Uh, and they know that when, when they speak to Angelica, it's in Spanish. Uh, it's just, it's just how it is. They don't question it. They don't say, they don't say it's hard. Uh, they don't, you know, they don't complain about it. It's, it's just life, you know. It's just something that happens, uh, in, in their life. And they're too young to really analyze the situation, so, that's just how it is. They don't, they can't compare it to their friends. They don't go, hey Johnny from whatever, you know, family, they, they only speak French at home. Yeah. They're, they're too young to know that. So,

And how, what's that?

I was just gonna say by the time they can do that kind of analysis, it's already too late. They can already speak, you know, many languages.

That's funny. Yeah. But how do you create that kind of, um, environment because, um, I can see where you get the first two, at least. And then if you have the opportunity of sending them to a foreign school, which, you know, around the world, that's pretty popular. Like English schools, for instance, are very popular. Um, so I can see three maybe, but what if, let's say you speak, when you speak five languages, how do you, how do you create those last two or three environments for your kids?

Yeah. So, so, I agree with you, really. Getting to three is not too hard. That that's one big message. When I talk to people, I think doing three is not hard in today's world. Um, a lot of people are in, you know, cross-cultural marriages. A lot of people live in an area that's, you know, outside of their, uh, their native language area. Oh. So, you know, you're, you're an expat from a US company to Japan, for example. Then right away, you already have Japanese and, and, and English. All you need to do is do a little effort to go to a third language. Right. So, doing three is, is quite quite achievable without major effort. I, I think.

Uh, how I did five is, is really my living, uh, context. Uh, like I, I cover Mandarin because I can speak it well. And, and, uh, and, and it's a minority language, I guess, at least where I live. So, So, Mandarin and Japanese are, are easy to, to do just because I do the Mandarin and my wife does the Japanese part. And, uh, my, my children were born in Japan. And, and at that time, I was doing Mandarin and Japanese. And, uh, we decided to go, I decided to go to Taiwan, go back to Taiwan for a bit for family reasons, but also to reinforce the Chinese, the Mandarin for my kid. And at the same time, start English. Um, we sent them to a little American daycare over there. So, that that covers English. So, that's three languages that, that he was, uh, exposed to, uh, extensively, uh, for up to the, up to the time he was three years old.

Uh, and, uh, then we came back to Canada. It's all in this grand scheme of things. We came back to Canada last July. Uh, my son had just turned three. My daughter was not quite two and a half. And, uh, in Quebec, as you know, it, we speak French here. So, right away, the fourth language, French, uh, is added to the mix by sending them to a daycare here. So, the most logical thing. And everybody, if you go outside, you go out of, go outside, you meet people, everybody speaks French. That's the first language spoken here.

The fifth language. So, it's talking earlier about choices. The, the choices that I'm teaching my, my children are very simple. These are five languages that I consider myself fluent in, and that I, even if I had to do them without me speaking them, these would be the same five because I think strategically, it's, it's a very good mix. But we can do that later, but the fifth one is Spanish. Spanish, uh, I was thinking about how to do this. Um, you know, there's like Spanish people, you know, uh, Spanish immigrant gatherings and that kind of stuff. Uh, it's one way. And I was thinking about, then I came upon the idea of au pair, which I write about, uh, very briefly in my book. Au pair is, uh, simply having, uh, sort of a, uh, child care personnel come in from outside your country to help you with the children and, and some light housework, I guess. And having a person living in your house, um, you provide for, you know, the food and the shelter. And, and that person, uh, can learn the culture here and, and, you know, learn, uh, life outside of their native country. So, it's a great exchange.

Uh, and, uh, having a person living in your house means that my children will be exposed to that person's language on a continuous basis. So, that's how I, uh, integrated the fifth language into the mix. And these five are being used on a very balanced way. English is a little less right now. So, so they watch TV in English. And it's still keeping up right now. So, it's not, not bad. They're still adding vocabulary as they, as they watch the cartoons and all that in English. So, these five are being maintained, like I said, on a very balanced way. We hope to be able to get more English later, but, I mean, it's such a major language. I don't think they'll have too much trouble later to, to reinforce it if they need to.

Right. Yeah, totally agree. I mean, English is everywhere. And, uh, it's gotten a little bit dark here, so it looks like I'm in a cave, but, uh, that's not entirely, uh, false, I guess. But, uh, um, so it seems like from, from what I can understand, is that it doesn't really matter how many languages the parents speak. Uh, it's more about creating an environment for each language. So,

Absolutely.

If you only spoke Mandarin, let's say, you could easily put them in the French daycare anyway. That's not, you don't need to speak French to go and enroll kids in the daycare, right?

No. So, that, that's one sort of, uh, preconception I, I'm glad you could solve because I, I definitely thought so for, before we started recording. I was like, yeah. I mean, daycare per se, by definition is for kids that go to, go before kindergarten, which is at five. I mean, children start to speak, early kids start to speak at one and a half, you know. And, and late kids could go up to three. Right? And, and these children at the daycare, a lot of them, they don't talk. I mean, my daughter is two, uh, and two and two months. And she, she can't speak too much yet. And all her, you know, all her classmates, I, I think maybe a third to up to a half of them can speak, sort of, start blabbering. But otherwise, the others, the other half, they just, they just cry when they need things. Right. So, they learn together. And they grow together. And

well, how cool. It's like a, a junior polyglot community, in a way.

That's right. That's right. And, um, I, I think one dangerous thing, dangerous, um, way to think is, is thinking you gotta learn one language well first. So, you, you're, you're, I don't know, Chinese immigrant in, in Canada or in the States. And, and you speak native Chinese, but you go out of your way to speak English to your kids because you think that they can't handle two languages at the same time. So, you go out of your way using your broken English, or with an accented English to talk to your kids in English, thinking you're doing them a favor. I, I think that's, that's sort of a very, very different, you know, dangerous way to think, you know. I, I mean, they can handle two, they can handle three, they can handle five. If you, if the, the, the environment allows.

Um, so, for us, it's just simultaneous. It's all at the same time. Just let them absorb as much as, as they can. Uh, and, as you said earlier also, you know, later if they wanna add more, that's fine. If they don't want it, if they don't like languages at all, fine. I mean, that's fine. As a parent, I give them the tools, uh, the weapons they need to succeed in life. If they use it, great. If they don't use it and can survive in other ways, that's also fine. But I wouldn't want it to be the other way around. They need it, but they don't have it and they gotta start learning it. You know.

Right. And don't wanna put unnecessary pressure on your kids. I mean, they have enough to, to deal with.

That's right. Exactly. So, doing it naturally like, like we do now, I'm not adding pressure. I mean, I totally disagree with the fact with, with, with people when they say, uh, that, that's gonna cause a burden. They're gonna become confused and they're gonna, you know, grow up speaking, uh, five or four languages, all like half, halfway.

Mixed up. Yeah, all mixed up and they're gonna be delayed at, at school. They're gonna, can't be, they can't catch up with the other guys. I, I don't think that's.

They'll find space in their brain. They'll reorganize them and they'll. That's right. And they'll. That's right. They can do much more than, than you think. Right. You know, you don't wanna go, well, I'm not a very good language learner. So, my kids probably can't learn well either. You know, that, no, don't say that. They're really good, yeah. They're, they're brilliant. They're all very brilliant.

So, I guess, a very good thing about this is it's really hard to fuck up in a way. I mean,

Absolutely.

It's so, that's one positive thing about parenting because, you know, there are lots of ways you can, you know, you can make mistakes as a parent, I suppose. But I guess this language thing, as long as you keep it natural and, you know, don't, don't make it a chore, then it's kinda hard to, to, to, to fuck it up.

That's right. Exactly. Exactly. No, and, and you hit the nail on the head. You don't wanna make it a chore. You know, you don't wanna, you know, start giving them English exercises and, and books to read, you know. Right. If they want, you know, they, they like, you know, they like to read books, you know, before going to bed, just make sure that sometimes you read, you know, you have Angelica read it in in Spanish to them. You have my wife read, read it in Japanese to them. I, I pick out the, the, the, the Mandarin books, you know. That's natural.

Right. And do you think that, that this, uh, this sort of, um, natural method, uh, tactic or strategy you're running now, do you think that will change as they grow older? Or do you think that's just gonna sort of evolve on its own and just basically run itself?

Well, you know, my son's three, my, my daughter's two, so I'm, everything's still under control. But I do, you know, have, have seen in other families where children grow up and they, they become sort of like ashamed of their languages. Okay. They go to, you know, they, in a public space, uh, if if the parent starts speaking in their native language to their children, they would sort of like, on purpose, um, not respond or respond in English. Um, I, so I do worry that that might come around one day. So, So, again, one thing is to go early. So, before they have that kind of, you know, um, self-consciousness, I guess, just, just let them absorb as much as possible. That's, that's one way of mitigating this risk.

And the other is, um, really solidifying this, this one person, one language thing. Uh, I think when you have a habit, when you develop something that so much that it becomes weird to do it otherwise, uh, then, then you'll just do it. Like, um, it's very weird for me to speak any other language than Mandarin with my dad. And I can't possibly imagine speak speaking in Ja in English with my mother. Right. It's, it's like the, the weirdest thing.

And, and even when it's not your native language, I've experienced that when I came to Canada, I didn't speak any French. I was 13. And I was living with my aunt. Um, she's my aunt as in the, the small, the youngest sister of my father. So, so her native language is Mandarin. But she had been living in Quebec for, oh, 20 years or something. And, and, and, of course, she speaks very well French. And in order for me to assimilate and integrate well into the, the Quebecer, uh, environment, she, you know, spoke to me in French on purpose. Uh, the whole family was speaking to me in French all the time.

So, my uncle, who's a Quebecer, like Quebecer guy, I mean, of course, it's only normal for me to speak French with him. But at first, it was quite weird speaking in French. I mean, I, I didn't speak any French. I had to force myself to learn quickly and, and to speak in French with my aunt. That was really strange. At first, it was, you know, it was weird. Right. But, then it developed to a point where, well, now it's weird for me to speak Mandarin with her. Because it's, it's a habit. You develop a habit and you, you speak in that language with that person, that target language and that target person. It, it just becomes weird otherwise. You know. So, in this case, I had to develop it a little bit. It, it took some time to get used to, but once you got used to it, you, you can't get rid of it. It's like smoking, you know. People, they develop this, this habit of smoking, but once you, you get it, it, it takes a lot of effort to, to get rid of it. So, whenever I meet my aunt, uh, it's in French. It's just, it's just the natural, most natural way to, to speak.

That's really interesting because I went to, um, after, after school, I went to a, an English, uh, high school, which was, well, it was a Danish, uh, school. So, there were lots of Danish people there too. But it was an English, uh, high school, uh, degree, diploma called the IB diploma. I don't know if you've heard about it. But it's like a standardized education all around the world. And the working language was English, which meant that all the classes were in English. But because we were in Denmark, most people were Danish. So, speaking to each other in English was very strange.

And for a long time, I, I, almost couldn't do it because it was so weird. And it, it wasn't really about the fact that I was used to speaking Danish with people because there were people I haven't met. There, it was just the fact that we had a, we had a, a better language in common. And I, I still have this today. If I, for instance, uh, I don't do it too much anymore, but I used to play video games with some of my Danish friends. And we'd occasionally have people not from Denmark play with us. So, we'd have to change your language to English. And it was really weird. And my accent would change and, and I don't know what happens there, but for me, I can totally understand if, if it takes some time for, if you, if you found it weird to speak a, a different language after, after some time with, uh, with a relative who you've spoken exclusively in another language, uh, with. But, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if, if, if this, uh, it's, uh, it's just habit or if there's also some kind of idea of, well, we both speak this language better. Why don't we speak that? Is, is there some kind of logic also, uh, starting us from.

So, you you have to develop that habit and, and I don't know who said this. Uh, it's like a famous quote. It's like success is, is not anything extraordinary, is not an extraordinary act or something like that. Uh, it's, it's simply a habit. Right. Doing the right thing over and over. Exactly. Do the simple thing over and over and it develops into it. And, and I fully agree. So, so again, making an environment that's natural for the kids to speak that target language, you, you channel, you know, their, you know, they associate a language with a person. This is all very natural. Um, even when it's not natural at the beginning, when you develop into a habit, it, it can become natural. Right. And, and then all, you don't really think about it. You just do it.

That's fantastic. I, I, I hope that the listeners like myself are a lot more, uh, I guess, relaxed in a way about the prospect of raising multilingual kids because, uh, it, it, it seems like it's, uh, it's not as a mysterious as, as, as one could fear.

It's not rocket science.

Right. Well, that's, that's very reassuring because I'm sure parenting has a lot of other complicated, uh, things you need to, to learn anyway.

Exactly. You know, in my book, I talk about this. And I've written about this on my blog a long time ago. Um, this, this building a context, an environment for, for your children. And I came up with a word, um, well, an acronym. I call it CLAP, CLAP. And it stands for contextual language acquisition philosophy.

Um, basically, making a context, your living context for your kids. Um, and, and one way, like I said, you know, having these different people, uh, cover different languages. But also, when as your kids, um, grow, as they, as they become more and more human, I guess, you know, they interact with other people, they, they play sports, they watch TV, um, they'll go on the internet. Um, whatever you do, whatever they, they do every day, whatever they have to do or they like to do, they love to do, just add some language learning, you know, elements to it. Right. Um, so, just make that context into, uh, the target language that you, that you want them to learn.

Um, for example, when I was a kid, I love remote control cars. You know, I, I die for those. I, I, you know, those were rather expensive. But, you see this motivation. I'd do anything for a remote control car. I'd go to a shop and and and and talk to the guys at the shop about it and all this was in Japan. I had to do it in Japanese. And when my parents bought bought me remote control cars, you know, they bought from Japan. So, that they have all the instructions, everything's in Japanese. And I'd have to start learning how to read Japanese. But I'd do it just because I want to. You know,

You like it, yeah.

I love it. And I, and I and if if if learning to read in Japanese was the only obstacle, then hell, I'd do it. So, that kind of stuff, um, they, watch, watching TV is, is another very simple thing, you know. Kids they watch TV, they can watch the same DVD like over and over and over and over and over. Right? There's, there's no better way of, you know, um, getting them to learn a target language than to just have them repeat, repeat, repeat the same things over and over. So, just put it in, in, I don't know, Danish or, or German, whatever. Because they at two, they don't know the difference anyways. They just love to watch it. Just put that language on and, and, and they'll absorb.

Right. And, um, yeah, that's, like I said, it's a very reassuring, uh, very reassuring to, to hear. And I'm sure there's a lot of people, I know that the demographic of, you know, 25 to 35 year olds is pretty significant in the polyglot community. And I suppose that's when a lot of people, uh, would have children. So, I, I thought that would be a good, uh, good time to introduce this topic, which I've been thinking about for, for some time. So,

Wow. That's great. Thanks. It's, uh, so, thank you for covering. It's very timely. It's very timely. I, I'm, I'm at the polyglot conference, I asked this question about, you know, how the market looks like to, to the, uh, they had a session with the publishers and all. Yeah. So, they talked about all these books about for students learning languages. And I was asking them, you know, do you have, you know, do you cover books that, you know, for parents to raise multilingual children? Um, as polyglots, I mean, chances are good that we think languages are important. And chances are good that we'll want to raise our children, uh, you know, speaking different languages. So, it's, it should be a huge market. Right.

Yeah. But it's a difficult topic.

It's a difficult topic and, you know, there's a few experts out there from what I gather on the internet. But, but they're not, you know, there's not a huge population of them. Um, and, and at least I, I want to, you know, from a business business perspective, if I, if I ever bring this into a, a good business, it would, I would like to cover Japan. Like there's a lot of parents in Japan that want, want their children to grow up speaking English well. So, it's, uh, it's a huge market.

Yes. So, how do you, how would you in, you know, in short, if you live in a country where English is not spoken widely and you don't really speak English that well, you know that, how do you then, is it, is it finding that English school, that English daycare, uh, finding that English au pair, if you can? Or, or are there any other things you can do, for instance?

Um, if you have foreigners at your, your company, for example. Um, expats coming to your country. You can talk to talk to them. They're likely wanting to learn your native language. And you're, you want to learn English from them. Uh, why not have family gatherings? You know, periodically have, have your children play together?

Right. There's, uh, meetups. You know, where people people just gather and, and have dinner and just talk in a in a target language. If it's English, it's English. Right. Um, there's various types of meetups. Uh, whether, whether it's, uh, it's to to learn English specifically or if it's for for hiking or, you know, going to onsen in in Japan, you know, these hot springs, you know, these are all all great social, uh, gatherings where you can where you can, you know, make it a purpose of yours to to meet foreigners. Uh, and, and force yourself to, uh, interact in that language and and try to find people, you know, make it a family event where the children will be around and, uh, you can exchange, you know, your native language with their native language. Um, right in your backyard. Right. Right. There's, uh, difference, there's a, you know, never-ending list of things that you can think about to do.

All right, that's good. That's good. Um, before we, uh, we, uh, call it end on this episode of the podcast, I just wanted to briefly touch on the North American Polyglot Symposium. Because that's, uh, that's, uh, that's a very new thing. But, um, why don't you just introduce it to everyone who hasn't heard about it and, uh, how you, how you came up?

Okay. Yeah. Thanks. Yes, the NAP, North American North American Polyglot Symposium. Uh, we're about, uh, eight, I think about eight of us that, uh, met at the, the New York conference, uh, in October, the polyglot conference in New York City. Uh, we, we, we thought we need something more periodic, uh, more, you know, something that that's on North American soil on an annual basis because the polyglot conference, um, with, uh, Richard and, and Ellen and, uh, Alex and those guys, uh, it's, it's more of a European thing. So, I think this is the North America, the New York City event was the first time it was on North American soil and the next time it's gonna be in Greece. So, uh, we, we thought we should, if we can, you know, have a, have something that's annual for North America, that'd be great.

So, some of us just got together, we talked about it and we had a, we, we had a poll on, on many of these polyglot, uh, Facebook pages to see which city would be good for, uh, an annual event of, of this type. And, uh, New York City came up again, there's Chicago, and, and, and, and Los Angeles and various cities came up. And, and Montreal was part of it. And, uh, Montreal won it out. And me being a local to, to the Montreal area, uh, and a few of us, uh, other guys from Montreal. And, and a few guys from, uh, from the States. We, we got together. We said, okay, we're, we're gonna be the organizers for this one.

And it's gonna happen on July 23rd, 24th, uh, 2016 in Montreal. And all the planning is going on right now. We, we have weekly meetings. Uh, and, uh, hopefully we can gather a good crowd. I mean, we've already talked to folks like, uh, like Steve Kaufman, for example. He's, he's very interested in, in, uh, uh, in contributing and, and speaking at the event. Uh, we're still contacting a few other guys to, you know, some big names, uh, and some local folks. Uh, including myself. I'll be, I'll be speaking also.

But, uh, uh, we've contacted some, uh, academic, academic, uh, experts from McGill, uh, Concordia, you know, uh, it's gonna be a nice polyglot gathering, uh, event. Uh, a variety of topics, uh, including, of course, how to learn languages. Uh, but, definitely the, the some, some the academic parts of it. And also, like myself, I'll be talking about how to raise the next generation into multilinguals. Uh, and, and some, uh, business aspects. Uh, I'm, I'm talking to Ollie, hopefully Ollie would, would be able to make it. Uh, he could definitely, uh, you know, provide a lot of insights into how to make, uh, make a business out of languages. Uh, and whatnot, right? So, a little bit of everything for, for everyone, basically.

Yeah. You know what? I always wanted to go to Canada since, uh, well, a long time ago because I learned that, I don't remember when I heard this the first time, but Canadians have been compared to Danes for a while. Well, yeah. Uh, in the way that, you know, we're sort of very free. We have universal healthcare. We have,

Correct, correct.

Like, we don't mind people taking the piss out of us, you know. Uh-huh. Uh, so, in a way, I've always felt that connection to Canada for since it's a long time. I, I remember where people are like, you know, people are like Denmark, it's like the Canada of Europe and Canada's like the Denmark of North America, whatever. Um, I don't know how true that connection is, but I, I think so. I, I think the social system is very similar.

Yeah, it's pretty close. And and so, I've always wanted to go. And now you bring this up, um, I, I'd really love to make it if, if,

Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, The only the only problem, the universal problem, of course, is, uh, finances because, of course, the flight from Europe is, uh, gonna be maybe, I don't know, 500 euros or something to, to Canada. So, you know, if I can find 500 euros lying around somewhere, then, uh, I'll definitely because, uh, I, I, you know, that that's the one thing I really love about these polyglot events around the world is that, first and foremost, they're obviously a great event to be at, but second secondarily, or maybe thirdly, or whatever, they for me, it's just an excuse to travel and see different parts of the world without having to, you know, just randomly commit to a city. Like, saying, oh, I'm going to Los Angeles and people are like, why are you going there? I'm like, I don't know.

But now, I'm going to Montreal because there's a polyglot event and I'll check out the city, you know. So, so for me, it's, it's great that there's, there's such a variety, you know, Greece, uh, New York City, Montreal, Berlin every year, of course, as well. Uh, I think I know that city now, but, anyway, you know, it's just a good excuse and, and to meet up with the family and the family, so to speak. Um,

Yeah. It, it really feels like a, a family and, uh, it's awesome. Yeah, it's, it was a great, great atmosphere in New York. I, I really loved it. You know, these when you get a bunch of people with the same taste, I guess, same hobbies, same, same likings. Uh, you know, good things happen. We're all supportive of each other. We're not competitors. You know.

No. There's no judgment, there's no.

Exactly. We all know the difficulties involved in learning languages. We all share, you know, the pain and the hopes and, and, you know, just support each other. It's just a great, great family. Like you say, it's just a great family to be in. So, I love the circuit, you know, and, and, and, uh, I'd love to travel more in the future. So, just going around the circuit, that would be nice, wouldn't it? Like, uh, I don't know what to compare it to. But,

It's good fun, anyway. And,

Absolutely. And you see it, and you see it different parts of the world. So, well, I wanna, uh, you know, I wanna, I wanna just say it's, it's awesome that you, you guys are putting it on because I know that it takes a lot of work to organize these things and,

Yeah.

You know, you must a lot of things to think about. Right. Exactly. It's, it's a huge task and, and, and I know that it's not exactly usually a huge economical, uh, gain at the end of it. So, I just wanna really say, great job on, on making it happen, making some action happen because I know that North America has so many polyglots and so many language-interested people that it's almost a shame that you didn't start it ten years ago. You know. But who would have known, right?

Well, thanks to Richard and, and, and those guys to really make the polyglot community come together.

Exactly. I mean, they, they. And it's happening. We're, we're living this, this, you know, at the current time, this expansion of of the polyglot community and the awareness of, of polyglots at a global level. And I, I think this is a great movement to be on. You know, personally, I think it's better now than, than like you said, you know, if it were, if it had been around forever, then we're just one of them. You know. But we're actually one of the first ones right now and, and we're setting the pace. Uh, we're the ones, you know, we're following Richard and, and, and Alex and all these, you know, top guys. But, uh, it's still a great time to be in in this expansion phase. I think it's a lot of fun.

I definitely agree and, and I think it will only get bigger and.

That's right. I think we can get more people interested in languages if, if they want, of course. And, uh, we can show the value of multilingualism across the world. We can bridge cultural gaps and we can stop wars and.

That's right.

And in one year, three year, five years, you know, we'll be the established folks, just, you know, like along side the, the Richards and, and, and the, the Bennies and all those guys.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, if you have no, when you have a good event here in 2016, I mean, that's gonna be a, a yearly, uh, goal for people to, to, like, right now, a lot of people in Europe are saying, I'll see you in Berlin next year, right? They, they just know that event is going on and.

Yeah. Same people in North America will start saying, so, I'll see you in Montreal next year or,

Right.

I hope so. I really hope so. Oh, you will, yeah. Why not? It's, uh. And, yeah. Because we, we call it the North American Polyglot Symposium because we were, we think it's gonna be, you know, in a different North American city, uh, every year. But if it, if it can become a Canadian thing or even, or even just a Montreal thing, great. Yeah. I mean, you know. Like I said earlier, we have, we have Steve Kaufman coming, he's a Canadian, you know, to represent our, our country in a, in a brilliant way.

Yeah, we all love Steve. We all love Steve. Uh, big fans of, uh, I love. He's phenomenal this guy. He's phenomenal.

I've met him in person. You know, I've had dinner with him. He's just amazing.

Yeah. I, I wanna meet Steve. That's one of the reasons I wanna go to Canada as well.

Well, there you go. For sure. It would be a great chance for that.

I hope, I hope I can make it. Like I said, it's, uh, the, the only limiting factor truly is, is just the cost, you know. It's, uh, yeah. Um, probably a $600 ticket.

Un-understandable, understandable. But, whatever, you know, life is life. You have to live sometimes and.

That's right. I'll just, uh, save on some other stuff instead, I think.

Yeah. Experiences is more important than stuff, right? So,

Correct. You're not gonna bring that money into the grave.

Right. Exactly. We all end up broke anyway. So, that's a, it's a good point. Might as well use it while you're alive.

That's right. And now we got really, really philosophical at the end here. But,

But,

I just wanted to thank you for, for taking the time and, and, and am I mistaken that it's actually your birthday today?

Uh, you're not mistaken. Oh, what a coincidence. Cause, uh, I just wanted to say, uh, happy birthday and, and thank you for, for taking. What a coincidence. For, for taking, uh, you know, time out of your, your personal day to, to be with the actual fluency.

No, no, no, you know, really the honor is mine. I mean, I, I just never expected this. When it, when you, when you contacted me, it was really, really flattering and, and I wanna thank you to, to take time to, to, to listen to my story.

Well, you're very welcome. I love. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So, finally, just a final trivia. You know, my birthday, the 11th of February, is actually, um, the same day as Thomas Edison's, uh, birthday, which is, which is the little, little thing. But the big thing is a whole Japan. It's, it's a national, uh, it's, it's like the July 4th of Japan. It's like the.

Wow. So, like the whole Japan is celebrating for me. I always say that to to my colleagues, you know.

That's awesome. Unfortunately, we're not coming to work, but, uh, you can still celebrate for me, you know.

That's awesome. Well, that's cool. That must be very, you must make you very sort of, uh, proud of your country in a way when you,

Wow. Japan, you know, I'm not a Japanese citizen. My mother's Japanese. I'm, I'm, I'm definitely half Japanese, uh, biologically. And I do consider myself very Japanese, uh, from a cultural perspective. Right. Uh, just as much as I am Taiwanese. Uh, I'm a citizen of Canada. So, I say I'm a Canadian, uh, because Canada has played a tremendous part in in shaping and forming me. Uh, and, and this is where I live, right? This is where I carry out my, my life now. But, uh, global citizen, but with, with three specific places where I, I tie myself to, uh, I guess associate myself with.

That's awesome. Yeah. You can pick the the best parts of each and.

That's right. I, I always do. That's right. So, uh.

Awesome. Well, I, I, I, um, I hope to, uh, to stay in touch with you and definitely meet you in, uh, in, uh, Montreal if you don't make it to Europe before, of course. But, uh, there's the always Berlin, you know.

Yeah. If you make it over then, I'll, I'll try my best.

All right, cool. Well, thank you so much and have a, a great birthday and, and see you around.

Thank you very much. Thanks for taking the time. Thank you.