Vladimir Skultety: 15+ Language Polyglot
In this third episode in the Learner Profile series I'm joined by extremely talented polyglot: Vladimir Skultety. Vladimir speaks around 15 languages and 9 of them at a high level. This a great epi...
June 26, 2015 · 1 hr 12 min
EP 65: Vladimir Skultety: 15+ Language Polyglot
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Vladimir Skultety
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Season two, episode 15, Vladimir Skulteti, Learner Profiles 3.
This is the actual fluency podcast, helping you become a better language learner by providing motivating weekly inspiration, as well as top tips and tricks from expert guests. And now, your host, Chris Broholm.
All right, it's time for another instance of the learner series here on the actual fluency podcast, and today I've got an extremely special guest. His name is Vladimir Skulteti, and he was recently at the polygot gathering in Berlin giving a talk, where I met him for the first time. And then I met him again here in Budapest, just randomly, as you do.
And um, super interesting guy, learned tons of languages, and, you know, the question of how many languages you speak is always a mess, but, you know, let's say eight or nine at the very highest of levels, which we'll dive into today. So, Vladimir, how are you doing?
I'm fine, thank you for the very nice introduction. It's very nice to be on your podcast.
Um, so why don't we start by giving the people out there a little, you know, CliffsNotes version of how did you get into language learning and what made you come to this point?
So, I was born in the uh, Southeast corner of Slovakia, very close to the Hungarian border, border, and um, I'm Slovak, but my parents sent me to Hungarian kindergarten. So, I grew up with Slovak and Hungarian, and Czech as sort of my three native languages, and when I was eight, um, my mom sent me to her sister, to the to the uh, United States. And so, I picked up literally uh, four languages as a child.
And um, even though I mean, four languages for for for a Slovak is maybe, for a Slovak child is is is a lot. But two languages is very normal, and um, I didn't find it too special or too too amazing. It was more of a question of how well you could speak those two or three or four languages, rather than whether you could speak a foreign language at all. So, I was a child and languages were around me, and I didn't feel like, um, you know, I should learn a new language. Nothing like that word came up until maybe late elementary school where we had to learn German, maybe, things like that.
And uh, it was only very very like later on in my life, actually, um, when I was maybe 20, when I went to uh, to Italy. Um, to uh, sort of the exchange program that I did was in Italy, and so I did that. And that was the first time when I really had to learn a language out of a textbook or however. That was the first time that I actually did that. And after that, I was I um, I started learning languages after that. So, but before that, uh, I was just I just they were around me, and I picked them up as a child, or yeah, basically, something like that.
Cool. But but then you sort of when you started at 20, you sort of propelled into a uh, a world of languages with um, doing it at university level?
Yeah, well, uh, I was my first degree is in um, international relations, and my second degree is uh, Chinese, Chinese studies. So, but that was I started learning Chinese when I was 25, I think. Um, so yeah, I was I was um, I knew or I I thought that I was good in languages. I I had that feeling that maybe I had a knack for it.
And I wanted to to try to learn, and I really enjoyed not studying, because a lot of people say, 'Oh, I love learning languages.' Actually, I I don't like learning languages, because it's a way like it I I have to sit down and learn and study, and that's not fun. But I love to talk in a foreign language to someone. And I just I just loved that feeling, and I loved different cultures, and I wanted to get to that level as fast as possible.
So, um, yeah, I started learning Russian, Spanish, and then other languages, Romanian, and then finally when it came to the most difficult one, I said, 'All right, I would like to try something that is useful and a challenge at the same time.' So, I started learning Chinese.
Cool. And uh, do you remember what what your first your first moment of thinking that, you know, your first moment of communicating in a foreign language and thinking, 'Wow, this is really awesome.'
Um, no, actually, because like I said, I grew up with two two or three uh, native languages. So,
So when you learned like German or Italian as a as a young adult or into adulthood, it didn't feel different talking that compared to some of the languages you sort of grew up with.
I I remember though when when I when it when the the first time that I actually realized that I can speak English. When I was eight years old and I was in the United States, I didn't speak English, obviously. I was just Slovak and Hungarian and um, I was uh, near New York City uh, in a in a small town.
And uh, I was in a day camp, and we were playing baseball, or kickball, it was called. And they they had explained the rules to me, and I understood them well, but I just couldn't speak. I was too shy or something like that. And then we played a bit of kickball, and they said I'm out, but I knew that they were wrong because I understood the rules. They were trying to cheat me.
And I was so mad, and I started yelling at them in English. And like halfway through, maybe like 30 seconds, or I mean, not even very but 10 seconds into my speech, I realized I'm speaking English. And I was I suddenly was so happy that I kept yelling for another 30 seconds, you know, just just just to just to to enjoy the moment. And um, yeah, that's that that was a wonderful, beautiful feeling.
That's hilarious.
[laughs]
That realization has come back later in other languages, I can imagine, but probably not as powerful as that time.
No, not as powerful. But you know what, I uh, I don't I know this wasn't the part of the question, but I know probably what was the moment when I discovered the the beauty of being able to communicate in foreign languages.
I was in the United States again and uh, we were at a friend's house having dinner, and I still have a picture from that dinner, and uh, there were about maybe 11 different nationalities at that table. All of them were my my uh, mother's sister's friends. And uh, I invented a game, I was nine nine years old, and I invented a game, which was say a sentence in your language, each one of you.
And there were Africans, there were Chinese, and, you know, it was very interesting for me. I guess for anyone, you know, if you have 11 different nationalities and 11 different languages. And I just said a sentence and then each person just said it. And um, I still have that picture, and it was just just amazing. And I think that that that love and that passion for for communication with different cultures started exactly at that point.
Fantastic. And your passion for Chinese was something that you say came at the age of 25 or?
Yeah.
Can you call it a passion then or?
Um, I think, you know, that was one of the things that I wish I had done differently, like learn Chinese for slightly different reasons, because my one reason was it's useful, and the other one was it's a challenge, but none of that is like love or Right, yeah, yeah. It's not passion. Yeah, not passion. And it took me a long time to find the beauty in Chinese. Um, and therefore a lot of times to to awaken that that passion. Um, I would've done that differently.
And yes, so I started learning Chinese when I was 25, I think, or 20, late 24. Um, and uh, first at the Chinese department, two years and then five years in Taiwan. So now it's a total of eight. And it wasn't until I was in Taiwan when when when the studies actually took off. Um, because Right. studying a language at a university is just not for me because it was really uh, a homework type of a type of a situation, and it just it just didn't work. It was negative motivation, and it wasn't taking me anywhere.
Yeah, I understand. What what do you think um, do you think you can create those passionate um, objectives for a language or what I mean is if you don't have that obvious reason to start out with, do you think you can find the reason or are there just some languages where you should be like, okay, maybe that's not for me?
You know what, I think what people should like researchers should really be researching is how to do exactly that, like how to spark that motivational spark. Because because once a person is really interested in something, just like just like people who love football, you know, and they I think Richard Simcott said that, that if you are a person who loves football, you will be watching your favorite games no matter what. Like if it's it it can be raining cats and dogs in your living room, and you're going to be there watching your favorite team play. And you you will know your favorite players and how many goals they scored, in which year, when, who was their coach.
And I'm I swear if you gave me the uh, the task to learn this, me personally, Vladimir, if I had to learn all the players of all the football players of all the leagues right now, with how many goals they scored, I would never do it. Like Right. Because it because I don't want to. I just don't want to do it. So, it's all about that, it's all about the motivation. And so what researchers should really be looking at is is to how to do that because once you have that, you don't need any advice, you don't need nothing. You you will just go like a like a hurricane.
Yeah, yeah.
And and learn it, because you you you you love to you love to do that, and there's nothing that's going to stop you. So.
Yeah, it's a great, it's a great topic and and one that I I frequently bring up here on the podcast, you know, motivation, because everyone does it differently and the whole subject is just so shrouded in mystery, really. I mean, some people just seem to inherently be motivated to do things, and some people need to push themselves a lot.
Like, I'm one of those people that rarely do anything automatically, like studying or even though if I really like Russian or now I'm getting into French and Hungarian, like, just that is not enough for me to work 10 hours a day and.
Yeah.
But again, we're all different, so. no worries. Um, but one thing I I noticed um, you're going to Taiwan for a year for an exchange program, I assume. And then you said you stayed how long?
Uh, another four years. So, five five years in total, yes.
So so what made you stay after the uh, exchange program? Was it you liked it so much or?
Part of it was because I liked it, but the the other part was that I was just not satisfied with my level of Chinese. I thought that I knew, I was absolutely convinced that that I was it was just not enough, and I had to stay in order to to reach like the level that I wanted to reach. And leaving at that point would be just just just it would make the the previous three years of my studies just just pointless. I thought at that time, and I think I was right because um, those five years in Taiwan were crucial, absolutely crucial to um, of course, when it comes to the language itself, but also when it comes to understanding the culture, which is so important when it comes to Chinese. When you want when you when you want to speak correctly. Um, and uh, yeah, so I I decided to stay another four years because I thought that it was essential. I didn't plan on staying four years, but uh, I mean, five in total, so so another four years, but uh, I wanted to stay as long as it would take to, you know, to learn Mandarin well.
Right. Yeah, well, it's I find it a very interesting that that you said that because I I think one of the risks of all these goal or mission based resources, like all the blogs, and all the challenges everywhere is is that we sort of put a language learning into this arbitrary schedule. Like I'll learn Russian in a year for instance.
And while I think that's a quite a good goal, personally for me, and it sounds like you're the same, I would be very sad if I just did a year and then just left it, you know, just, oh, yeah, I'd done my year. I might as well just quit it now, because that's why the goal, right? And obviously some talented people can get very far in a language in a year. So I mean, this doesn't apply to everyone. But for them, it would be maybe a six-month or a three-month mission. Uh, but I'd just be very sad if people are not at least thinking about just continuing to get a higher level.
This is, you know what, I think I finally understood uh, what a difference between a sort of like a, Richard Simcott had that talk in Berlin. I don't know if you if you if you saw his talk about the difference between multilinguals and I don't know if that was the uh, the the main topic, but he was talking about the difference between multilingual people and then like language enthusiasts or something like that. And I never, I never it never occurred to me that there is this huge difference between people who who learn languages, and Richard said it, for no reason whatsoever.
Right.
Uh, and then there are and I never did that because every every time I learned a language, well, my motive was to be functional in it, you know? That was like, that's why I'm learning it. I'm not why else would I be learning German? I mean, Right. the point of learning, the whole point of learning German is to be able to talk to to Germans, and and to be able to live in Germany if I want to, and uh, understand uh, you know, German rap songs, because I I love that. Exactly.
Um, but it and I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to to learn languages for a completely different reason, like maybe or no reason. Or no reason, yeah. But it's just that it never occurred to me that there is this huge difference and that there is a huge number of people who learn languages for for other reasons than than to become really just like brutally functional in it, you know, as as as good as you can. Right. To make it your second native language if you want.
And um, so so going back to what we were talking about, uh, which I I'm sorry, I forgot your question, but uh, that, you know, uh, people have different different uh, motives to to learn languages, I guess.
That's cool. And um, uh, we'll be uh, back with more after this quick message from our sponsor, the Melo Method.
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All right, so where were we? We were talking about we just finished up why you got into Chinese and why you want to, you know, really focus on it. But um, you're only supposed to do a year in Taiwan.
Yes.
But you decided to stay for five.
Yes.
And the thing I didn't quite catch was why? Why you uh, decided to stay for instead of just going back to Czech Republic or Slovakia?
Because um, because I thought that, well, first, I didn't really have any concrete plan, so I didn't, I wasn't fixed to any particular location. That was one thing. And the other thing was that, um, I just wasn't satisfied with the level of my Chinese. And I knew that I I just couldn't leave leave Taiwan talking like that. I had to learn it better, to a higher level.
All right, okay. So, you felt guilty in a way.
I felt I felt like it was like there was no purpose in the three years that I've put in um, up to that point. Uh, if I had left. Like, so I thought and I wanted to stay there because it was I I really liked the place. Um, so, yeah, so I ended up being there for another four years.
Cool. And obviously, uh, five years is a a long time, and uh, now when we hear you speak Mandarin, it sounds almost fluent. Uh, sorry, not almost fluent. It's very fluent, uh, almost native, was what I was about to say. And um, I I suppose that's what the level you were at since you can interpret fluently between your native, your Slovak and Chinese and English.
Uh, well, so the thing is that and like many people said, you know, interpretation is a is a completely different skill. So, um, it is something that you have to learn, even. It's not something that you can do right away. But it's true, you have to probably speak, you have to have a really good command of your native and the foreign language, uh, that you're interpreting, in order to to be a good interpreter, or maybe even to even be able to interpret at a at a at an official level. Right. So hopefully, yes, hopefully I'm doing at least something right.
Yeah, definitely. And um, what I wanted to make a little bit of a transition to now was into how to actually, how do we do this all this uh, these amazing uh, language learning features that you have accomplished? Because you've done both sort of university language learning, and you also have done independent language learning. So, let's start with the sort of official language learning at university. Because I know there are a lot of people out there listening who possibly didn't know exactly what to specialize in, so they signed up for something like, you know, French and English studies, or Slavic studies, or depending on where you are in the world, of course. And um, what sort of things should people be aware of if they're starting a university degree, or maybe they started one last year and they're sort of maybe treading water a little bit. How can they be better university language learners?
You know, this is really hard because I was a very uh, bad student in the sense that I didn't like school. Uh, I had good grades, but I was I always had to force myself into studies. And this is unfortunately what happened to me when I was studying Chinese at the university, as well, that it's it suddenly turned into homework. And I hate homework. And so I hated Chinese.
Uh, I I didn't make that direct association in my mind, but going back to that time, I think that's what happened. So, part of the reason why I didn't learn or didn't progress that fast at that time was that I just didn't want to because it was imposed on me, and I had to take exams and it was it was just a very for me, it was negative motivation. I didn't like that.
And as soon as that was gone and I was in Taiwan, and I could like sort of do whatever I wanted and uh, there was no more pressure then I started, um, you know, I made much more progress. So, I really don't know what to uh, what kind of advice to give to people that would like to study or those people that actually like to study languages at a university level because they feel like they're part of a group, or maybe they really like when their um, study plan is structured, and so on.
Yeah, but it's cool in itself though what you just said because basically what the point that I got was that we're all different. So, if you are somebody who really enjoys that kind of group mentality, that sort of university language learning, you're going to naturally perform better under those circumstances.
Everything, just to add a little bit. Everything else, except for the language part, was fantastic at the Chinese department. Like, uh, when we're learning about Chinese history, uh, character etymology, uh, classical Chinese, Chinese literature, that was just fantastic. It was beautiful. It was very deep. I felt like I was doing research, which never happened at my like at the uh, old uh, school where I was at, the International Relations.
And um, everything else was fantastic. But even the theoretical part of the language was wonderful. We were learning about the history of the Chinese language and then how it worked now, and how it changes, the dialects, and all that was very interesting. But we didn't learn the language. And then of course, if you look at how many hours per week we were uh, like dedicating to it, and I was learning a lot outside of the class as well, it just didn't work. Because there was this negative sort of motivation factor that killed it.
Well, that's what a lot of people tell me, at least in I also sort of did languages at university, but only languages that I had already learned before. So, I don't know the feeling of signing up for say, Russian, if you've never ever studied it. I don't think you traditionally get very far in terms of speaking the language, but you might have a really great understanding of how it works and maybe the history and uh, and sort of those things.
Um, but let's go over to the independent learning side, though, which is uh, probably the majority of the audience anyway. We're sitting at home and they have this hobby, they want to learn languages on their own, or maybe with a tutor. And let's go to the real basics. This is one of the great things about this sort of format is that we can go back and say, if you were starting a language tomorrow, how would you do it?
And the way I usually phrase it is what would you look for first? Because a lot of people ask about methods and sort of tools we can use to learn a language, because obviously, there are hundreds and thousands of resources. Um, so if you had to learn a new language starting tomorrow, what's sort of the first preparations you would do? What would you look for, and how would you make sure that you started on the right foot?
Well, I would make sure that I have access to internet.
Okay.
And Google. Um, well, you know, recently people have been asking me more how I learn languages, so I I gave this response, um, more often uh, these weeks. So, I have roughly, I roughly know what I'm going to say.
Well, I the way I learn is I listen a lot to things that I can understand. And um, obviously, if you're starting off with the with a language, you don't understand nothing, so you need to learn at least like the the basics, and start with the very, very basics. So, what I would do, I would look for native content, might be lessons, like it doesn't have to be, um, what is the word? like actual native content or original native content. It can be like artificial, it can be audio, but very, very basic.
And just listen to it, and listen to it, and listen to it, until I can understand at a normal pace what they are talking about. And then go one level higher and one level higher and one level higher with the uh, with the difficulty. And of course, now I'm talking about this one part, which is the passive passive part. Uh, of the learning process.
And I just do that. I try to literally sort of make a a direct connection between between what I have in my mind and the sounds. So, there is no paper, there is no writing. I don't write down any I do write down words, but very little. So, I try to understand it just by hearing it. So, that the association is just the audio and my brain, nothing else. And um, um,
That's quite interesting, I would say.
And and I try to listen to things that I can understand. Like if it's too hard, then it's probably not going to work. Right. Because because it's important that you're able to learn things out of context, I think, because they stick quicker and and longer and.
But what if um, if I I want to talk about that in just a moment, but going back to getting the level, you know, until that makes sense, like, how did you said you found basic stuff, but there must be something that helps you I mean, do you just look up the words until you get them or?
So, I think it depends really on the language as well. Like I was just thinking about Cantonese now. Right. Um, and I spoke I speak already Mandarin. So, learning Cantonese for me is going to be very different than learning Cantonese for someone who doesn't speak Mandarin.
Right. Let's assume it's very foreign, so that's that way we have the extreme covered.
That's very hard. It's really very hard.
Yeah, but that's that's why we're here, you know? We we're not here to uh, just uh, uh, what is it? Throw out the usual uh, clichés. We're here to challenge the language learning world with how can we actually learn it? And let's take you can, if you're European like I am, you'd say Russian is extremely difficult for me. I mean, you have a little bit of help and influence from your native language. But for me, Russian was completely foreign. I had no idea. So, for for the idea of having to listen to Russian, uh, and try to make sense of it would be equivalent to me listening to Klingon or I mean, whatever. I would have absolutely no idea. So, how can we go a step back and actually build even just a tiny foundation in the language?
Well, look for the simplest possible dialogues. Maybe like lessons on some websites or popular podcasts. The very, very, very basic ones. And uh, just listen to those until you can understand those. And then you go one level higher.
Possibly with explanations or translations?
Yeah, sure, well, definitely. Oh, of course, of course. I didn't I didn't yeah, I didn't explain. I skipped that little part, yeah. Uh, of course, like if if you just hear the sound, no matter how slow and simple things those sounds represent, then you just if you don't know nothing about the language, then you just don't know what it is. So, of course, you need to know.
I'm glad we cleared that one up.
Yeah, I'm sorry. So, at least at least either listen to the translation right after that, like there are many classes that are structured like that. Right. And they they tell you one sentence and in the same sentence in let's say Cantonese and then the same same sentence in English. And um, then at the end of that should be the whole dialogue again. And that's what I was doing. That's what I was doing.
And it's, you know, whenever people ask me, well, how should I learn Mandarin? Because that's a lot of people ask me that. But to be very honest, my most honest answer is I don't know. I really don't know. It's just I've been learning it for eight years, almost eight years. And five years of those eight years, I was in Taiwan. And um, I wrote numerous like numerous articles about that, and I I still don't know, man. It's really.
Well, it's a different experience when you're in the country, because you're going to get the language on such a different angle, but for I think listening is one of those things that's quite underrated actually, and it's very cool that um, that that's a big part of your language learning routine.
Very big part, very big part.
But you know, let me just um, about listening in general, because we we were actually just talking about what I'm about to say now, we were talking before the recording. We were talking about how we were playing video games and listening to audiobooks at the same time, or the news, or just listening to anything. So, it wasn't just the game, and it wasn't just listening. So, for someone like me, who's like super, you know, I get bored if I do one thing too much, or at the same, you know, I have trouble focusing. What would you do then if you were supposed to sit down and really intently listen on something?
Um,
To a lot of Vice City.
From yeah, or yeah, I would probably do that. Yeah. There is maybe this like you should build a habit. There are uh, life coaches uh, my great friend Michal Grzeskowiak, he says that, you should build a habit. So, maybe just really put it into your schedule that every day for 30 minutes, you're going to listen to something no matter what. Make it your life goal. Um, if you can't concentrate, then you will slowly slowly build the habit.
what I did was just what you said, we were playing video games and uh, and listening to listening to the news in Russian, or listening to the news in Chinese, and uh, for me additionally to practice interpretation, I was interpreting it into my native Slovak language in my head. And um, I spent like hours and hours doing that.
Right. Well, we'll get back to that in a moment, because that's more of a a mastery thing really, I think. But um, I'm just thinking right now. I'm like, if I had listened to anything remotely related to a foreign language for just 10% of the total time I spent gaming. And I know a lot of people here are probably in the same boat, you know, with the you know, our generation is kind of infamous for the whole gaming thing anyway, but it's like I'm just it's scary, isn't it? I spend probably the equivalent of five or 10 university degrees playing video games. And um, of course, I was a bit of a serious um, case, but I know a lot of people like that who it's like, you know, games are their second life or first life depending on how you um, but that's really cool to uh, to to have an an alternative way there. I'm going to think about that when I, you know, once in a blue moon load up uh, Grand Theft Auto 5 and uh, cruise around. So, all right, we listened to we started listening. We got our some kind of reference that tells us a translation, or an explanation, or whatever, and we're getting sort of a good basic level in the language. How are you translating what you're hearing and internalizing as let's say, vocabulary points and sentence points? How are you sort of translating that into actual useful language? Because a lot of the time you'll do a course or a book or something, and you'll learn words and vocabulary, but actually going out and speaking to people is a whole different skill.
Well, what I what I do is uh, I try to test it on myself, like I try to talk to myself, a little bit, and see like, wherever I, like I try to say something, and then naturally you come across a situation very soon where you just don't know how to say it. And so I try to go online and and try to try to see if I can find out how people usually say it, and uh, if not, then I ask my friends and see if it's a useful expression or not, and then just move on like that and do that for a bit.
So, I talk to myself, and then when I feel finally a bit confident, then uh, I try to find a language exchange partner, if I'm not in country. And just basically do the same thing. Try to talk. Try to say whatever I want to say, like, not really talk about my family or what I like to eat, or what my hobbies are, but just literally try to talk to that person right there. It's a real situation. Just tell him what exactly I I would tell him in English or wherever the discussion would take us.
And um, just try my best, and always ask and observe what I'm doing and what that person is doing. Always observe yourself. Always try to observe what you're doing and what the person is doing. And um, tweak it here and tweak it there, and learn uh, and then gradually just just start from there.
Right. And do you do you write down these holes in your vocabulary anywhere or do you just sort of make a mental note and that in and of itself?
It depends, you know, it depends because I used to do that, like I used to have huge vocabulary lists. I remember when I was learning Russian, I had a list of 900 words in about three weeks. Uh, but that's because that was possible with Russian. It's very close to Slovak. So, those 900 words were those words that made the difference.
Um, but with Mandarin Chinese, it's pointless because you all you would do, you'd be writing and writing and writing and writing. You'd be overwhelmed, and you'd be going nowhere because you don't know how important this word is. You just just hear it as a word that you want to know, but does it is it appear only in this one particular expression? And then everywhere else it's used in a completely different way or not at all, and something else is being used. So, it's with Mandarin, it's a completely different story.
What I what worked for me with Mandarin, if something, it was just asking people to tell me what they would say and just memorize it. Instead of like asking them, how do you say this? I would ask, how what would you say at this moment? And then I would just memorize it as it was, without thinking about the grammar, later, even without thinking about the tones. Because for those who don't know, Mandarin has is very notorious for having tones and they're notorious for being difficult. So, well, into my studies, I just stopped thinking about that too. And just memorize it as it was. And then another one, and another one, and another one. I mean expressions and then maybe collocations and things like that.
And um, I think at at one point, if you have enough of them to be able to understand things very well out of context, and to be able to say most of the things that you want to say, and that's when the real sort of the active phase begins because you're going to start polishing those like the neural pathways and um, and you're really going to start working on your language at that point. But you need to have that basis because otherwise you're not going to get anywhere. It's just like it's just like having a a bike without wheels. Right. you know.
Right. And would you would you use any tools for remembering? You know, when you found, if you ask your friends, how how would you say this? Would you then put that in a flash card or would you use any kind of you know, you could put that on a piece of paper, I suppose, just the act of writing it would probably reinforce the memory. Or did you just make a conscious effort to?
It depended on the language again. Like I said, with Russian, I had a um, word file where I was writing all the vocabulary that I uh, needed or actually, I wrote everything. With Russian, I really wrote every single word. Because I knew that it was going to end very soon, you know? There was I was pretty sure because I understood so much of the language already that I was pretty sure that what I need is about 1,000 words that are going to make the difference. And so I wrote every single word that I didn't understand, and at at one point it just snapped and I understood everything because uh, not every word, but I understood everything. So, so with Russian, that was possible.
I tried to do the same thing with Chinese. 5,000 pages of words later, and nothing happens, man. You're like, like, what the hell? This this is impossible. I mean, I have a pretty good memory, and I know how to use all these tricks. Right. Like memory hooks and stuff like that. So, um, I was learning vocabulary by the by the dozens, you know, like maybe 50 words a day. And like I said, like 5,000 pages later, and nothing. Still don't understand stuff. Listen to the news and it's like it's gibberish. It's so depressing.
So, so with Mandarin, I didn't didn't do it like that. I just said, you know, just screw it. I'm not doing it. It's it's just a waste of time. It's very depressing. And plus you have the the character, you have the opinion, you have the uh, the the meaning, then you have the tones and stuff like that. So, it's very time consuming. Exactly. Consuming. And I and I definitely didn't use any for personally for me, it didn't work. Um, any spaced repetition programs, or any flash cards because the time that that it took me to create those flash cards, or input the data, I could have been studying, or I could have been reviewing, you know, it was just it was just I I thought it was I thought it wasn't working for me.
Right. Well, that's I mean, that's a that's a great point that I mean, just because we have all this software, doesn't necessarily make it easier or better. It's just uh, you know, some people will respond much more to a natural approach of, yeah, write it on a piece of paper, and then review it once in a while. You know, that that is spaced repetition in a way. It's just a kind of a a ghetto, I guess low low budget. Um, but it definitely works and I I'm very uh, it's it's interesting because your whole approach seems very natural and very sort of, you know, I don't know how to explain it. How would you describe your language learning sort of philosophy if you if you had to choose one word?
Phew. Like, I treat it like a like you my with the way I look at it, it's like when you go it's like a muscle. So, you have to strain it in a good way so that it grows and it's stronger. That's like the the brain. And that's the same same thing with the language. You have to sort of learn in a way so your brain can absorb it and deal with it in a way. And um, so then you have to just figure out how to do it. I I really don't know how to describe that. That's just the the the most uh.
That's good enough. That's good enough.
That's descriptive way.
Rubber band, maybe.
Rubber band. Rubber band. Exactly. Because at a certain point, if you overload it, it's going to snap, right? Right. It's just like in the gym. If you if you um, put in just the right amount of weight, then you're going to deal with it, and the muscles are going to grow. But if you put on too much, you're not going to even move it. So.
Or you get injured and stuff.
You get injured, or you learn the wrong ways of of, you know, of dealing with it and and stuff like that. That's that's the most descriptive way. Now, technically how I do it. Technically how I do it, I just really think uh, input, lots of input, lots of output, consistency, review and motivation. That's for me. These five things are are key.
Right. And the input, the listening, we alluded to a second ago, is why do you think that you were so focused on listening? It sounds like you started out that way and you still doing it today, when everyone else doesn't really talk much about listening.
Because I think that humans, whatever it is, learn a lot by by like watching others and then imitating what they do. And a language is a very, very complex thing to imitate, but it can be done. And in order to do that, you need to understand it, you need to listen to it a lot. You need to like literally, you can't see it, but it is there, right? It's just a sound, but it's a very complex structured sound with patterns, and you need to understand them. And to be able to mimic that, you need a lot of lot of input to do that.
So, and I try to really think a lot when when people when I listen to something, I try to analyze what not really analyze, because, you know, they talk really fast, so it's not possible. But I really try to focus as much as I can, oh, that was that ending, and oh, she used this, she used a subjunctive, and he used this, and oh, that word is nice, it fits. And, you know, and you just try to try to follow what he's saying, but at the same time, somehow at least analyze it, what's going on. And then just do the same thing with the output when you talk, you know, listen to yourself, listen to the way you pronounce things, intonation and and uh, language structure, sentence structure, and so on.
But like, like you said, I think people underestimate the power of listening. And I actually a lot of my friends who who I told that, you know, I'm listening a lot to stuff and stuff that I can understand. They said, you know, this is really good. Why don't people do this more often? Because, you know, first of all, it saves time because you can do whatever you want, just put on the put on whatever podcast, and you can go to the garden or to the gym.
And um, second, you it's it's so many good things happen when you listen to something. It's a form of of a review because people talk, but they also use the vocabulary that you you've just learned, maybe, and then so it pops up, and it's sort of like a spaced repetition program, right? Right. Then uh, it's native content. It's not a lesson. Maybe it's a lesson, but it's, you know, if it's not, then even better. So, you're basically listening to the flow of the language. And uh, not to mention, if you're listening to something interesting, like a podcast or whatever, you you also have the pleasure of listening to the information. You know, So.
Sure. When you get further a little bit further, of course.
Yeah, exactly. So, many many great things. And uh, I think it's the easiest part. Once you get to a level where you understand, it's the easiest way of uh, of uh, of learning something from the language. Because if you have to talk, it's it's pretty stressful. If you have to write something, it's still stressful. If you have to do exercises, it's still pretty stressful. But listening is uh, is pretty all right.
Yeah, that's cool. And I I heard talks about, I don't remember who who was talking about it or who proposed it, but there was somewhat somebody talking about having a large, actually, I think it was like the original idea was something like six months, I think, of a listening only phase, where the argument was that by listening so intently and not really focusing on producing, you're really getting the nuances of the sound patterns of the it's called rhapsody. I'm not sure. I I did a minor linguistics course, but, you know, the the basically the flow of the language. Uh, I might have just made up a word that happens on the podcast from time to time.
Um, but anyway, the point the point that they were trying to make is that by listening a lot in the beginning, you sort of it's an investment in your later levels. And at first I was like, six months just listening? That sounds ridiculous. I mean, why would anyone do that? You can learn a language in six months. Right. You might not learn it well, but you can learn to speak a language in six months.
Um, but then I was sort of getting, uh, no, I started to realize that learning a language is sort of a lifelong process. We never really learn any language. I mean, that's at least my argument. I don't know Danish, I don't know English. Um, I might know some of it, but just comparing to the corpus of those languages, you know, the we know maybe what, I don't know, 20%, maybe even less, just of pure vocabulary. And then we come get you get all the regional differences and slang, and the language constantly evolves. So, one word might mean something in one decade, and then the next it changes. Right.
Um, so, and now you're talking about listening as well. I don't know, six months is probably a little extreme, but, um,
Especially especially without saying anything. Right. Like if six months is fine, but, um,
I don't see a point of not at least trying to try to say something to see what happens, you know? Because maybe maybe somewhere around the second month, the two months will be already enough for you, but you don't know because you never tried to.
Right.
Right.
But I'm just guessing because, uh, when I for me, it learn like the uh, it worked very, very well listening, you know? Yeah, exactly. Especially with Russian, especially with, well, with most if not all, except for Mandarin because Mandarin was too hard and I just just I just couldn't find material that would be suitable for me.
But with Serbian, Polish, Russian, um, Portuguese, Spanish, French, it it worked really, really, really well, you know? Um, it's it's like you really need to get into the heads of the native speakers. Right. And and to see what they do. It's it's really very clear once you can do that. But before you can't do that, it's very obscure. But once you can do that, it's very clear what they say, how they say it, and what the patterns are and what emotions go into that.
And uh, in order to do that, I think uh, you need to do a lot of like, one of the ways that you can accelerate this process is by listening to to to a lot of things. Things that you like to listen to so that it's not boring, so that you don't have to force yourself into it. Something that you would listen to anyway. Mm-hmm. You know, if it wasn't your native language. Um, so if you like fishing, listen to fishing podcasts in Spanish, or something like that, you know?
Sounds good. You can also use dubbing particularly in cartoons.
Or that, yeah, or series.
Animated series usually have million languages. Like Disney movies I think are in every single language in the world. Yeah. So, those are good forms of entertainment. Um, but let's make this sort of segue now to the other level which I think you are particularly good at, which is taking your languages to a high level. And if we ignore sort of the, you know, you you said you were what was the word? gifted or given, uh, sort of four native languages. Uh, if we ignore them a little bit, but look at languages that you have personally brought up to a high level. What do you think are some of the things that we need to be doing or transition into doing after we've been doing all the beginner stuff? We've been listening a lot. We've been working on our vocabulary. We've been practicing. We got our tutor. And now we got the solid mid-level, but we want to be, you know, we want to be high level. So, what's the first thing we should sort of do to become uh, on the path of C1, C2 maybe?
So at the uh, conference in Berlin, I was talking about how I feel that there are like three major components to sounding native. And the first one is um, structure, which is grammar and vocabulary and and things like that. Second is pronunciation, or what we call pronunciation, but it's much more than that. It's accent, intonation, um, melody, sometimes even Right. the color of your voice sometimes, you know. So, the packaging, the the sound packaging of the language.
And the third thing is what I personally call style is um, basically the ability to to talk like the native speakers do in the sense that you choose the correct expressions all the time, you know? And um, at the highest levels, I personally think that all these three pillars, let's call them. So, structure, your pronunciation and that style, they have to be very at a very high level, all three of them. So, you have to have good grammar because if you make mistakes at a very high level, it's it sounds strange. You know, if you have really good pronunciation, and you say stuff like native speakers do, but then you make an unexpected grammar mistake, everyone will just suddenly it will it will sound it will stick out much more than say if you if you make, I don't know, mistakes on a regular basis.
And then if you if you have good if you have good grammar, but your pronunciation is off, then that's that's that's very obvious because pronunciation is is what like sound is what language is transmitted through when we talk. So, it's it's one of the first things that people think it's wrong, right? Like, oh, you maybe his Rs are off, or he doesn't he has a problem with his problem with his th. And stuff like that.
And uh, the when you have like only good style, so this is I refer to that people who are immigrants and they learn the language just by talking, and they never read any books, and because maybe they don't have the time and they don't have the uh, the interest. Then they talk just like native speakers do, but usually they not usually, but it happens that their pronunciation is off, or they have very bad grammar. So, at the highest levels, I think all three, the structure, the pronunciation and the style, they have to be very very good.
And I was specifically talking about the style because it's something that I've never heard anyone talk about. And I just sort of analyzed what I do and what my friends who sound native do when they when they sound native. And and one of the things that I I I really thought that no one really talked about was was what I called style, is it's basically the ability to to talk like native speakers in the sense that if you have five correct expressions with good grammar, and you can pronounce them with perfect accent, only one of them is going to sound native at that particular moment, you know? And the ability to to do that is going to to push you higher.
And so that's when when I was referring to to asking people to tell you what would you say now, instead of how would you say this? This is sort of a really good shortcut to to becoming more stylish in the language because people are going to tell you exactly what should be said at that what is called for if you if you want at that in that moment.
And um, so so how how if we're referring specifically to style, what can help you a lot is either ask this question or the second thing that you can do is you should uh, you should look for a person who is sort of like a mirror image of yourself in that culture, where like the language of which you're learning of. So, if I was learning Chinese, I should look for, and let's this is a hypothetical situation. So, let's say I am I'm from the capital city. I have a university degree. My father is a let's say, I don't know, an accountant. My mother is a a teacher. And my income is this and that, and I've traveled a bit. So, you should look for that person in China. And you should copy his like the way he speaks Chinese because when you start learning Chinese, it's just Chinese to you, and it doesn't matter whether it's whether it's a teacher, or it's a construction worker, or it's a lawyer, or whoever. It's all Chinese to you. But there are there are very different, you know, Chinese. There are very different types of Chinese.
And so if you are a university student, or an exchange student, and you start learning Chinese from um, from from a completely different level or layer of the society, it will be very weird. It's just like when um, it's just doesn't match, it just doesn't fit. So, so uh, my friends I I gave this example, my um, Western friends when they were in Taiwan, they learned very good Chinese by completely copying the people that go to Taiwanese talk shows. Like they were watching a lot of talk shows. And now they talk like those people do. But the problem is that people that go to Taiwanese talk shows are just not very smart. So, my American friends, they speak fantastic Chinese, but unfortunately they sound dumb. They at least they sound much dumber than they say than they are when they actually speak English. So, it's really weird. It really doesn't make any sense. You just see that and it something is just wrong.
Um, so, I'm not necessarily saying that this is that, you know, every single student who starts starts out with a language should have that in mind, but at the higher stages, it's definitely going to make make a huge difference. Whether you're going to be perceived as who you really are, like close to your identity, or someone completely different. I think that's pretty important. Even though maybe it doesn't really affect the quality of your language, but it definitely affects the quality of your of how you come across as a person, which ultimately the language is helping you to do. So, um, that's one one of the things that I was talking about.
Yeah, sure. It's like the the basic levels of a language are building blocks, and then once you've acquired that sort of base level, you sort of you can take a different a few different paths. Like once you learn English, if you're in a Russia, for since you've learned this very Russian English, you know, a huge Russian accent. And, you know, a lot of people stick with this, but if they want to take it further and become like native level, they can they have a choice, right? They can they can pick up an English accent, an American accent, Australian, you know, cockney, whatever. Uh, but the point the point is, if you're you know, uh, you you need to be careful as well. Because if you like, say, if you choose the English accent, there are some accents that just sounds like you're a brick layer from, you know, So.
Very careful, very, very careful.
And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not judging or anything, but like you say, you know, there needs to be coherence because otherwise people are going to get confused by you.
They'll be confused. Yeah. They'll be confused.
They're like, if you turn up in a suit, and you speak like a bricklayer.
Yeah. And they'll be like, they will think you're stupid. Yeah. They'll be confused.
I mean, there's just yeah, so. And it's a very, you know what, this is a very frequent thing because a lot of people think that, for instance, learning slang is going to make them sound more native. Well, learning slang is just going to make you know slang and how to use it. It doesn't mean it, you know, you have to be very, you don't have to do anything, but I think that you should be very sensitive about how you um, come across in in the foreign language that you speak because it's a huge part of the of of how people are going to perceive you as a person.
And uh, so therefore what I and I discovered this very, very late in my Mandarin studies into my Mandarin studies because I was talking like uh, like my friends. But um, that wasn't actually the the thing I should have been aiming for, you know, the the kind of language. So, very much later on, I I just realized, oh man, I really used to talk like that. You know? It was it was just Right. It's like talking like a teenager when I'm 30, you know, or it's just doesn't doesn't doesn't match.
Well, it's a good uh, it's good that you can look back and see what you used to be. Like, I guess that that's kind of an achievement. Or at least it's an you can look back at the achievement of wherever you've come. I mean.
Possibly, yeah, it's it's a process. So, you you grow all the time, hopefully.
Yeah, I recorded all my I record all my tutoring lessons and, for instance, my Russian first one, it was I could only listen to a few minutes of it because it was so painful. You know, uh, I I have this thing, I don't like listening to my own voice anyway, but when it was like really broken Russian, and my tutor was being so patient, and it was just, I couldn't listen to it.
But anyway, it sort of empowered me that, okay, I have actually progressed, because one of the things that does happen when you're reaching the intermediate stages is that you don't feel like you're progressing anymore, right? You know, the yeah. The curve slows down. So, actually listening to yourself is it can be quite beneficial because you suddenly or read texts that you've done before or read or re-watch movies that you watched a long time ago, and suddenly you understand a lot more. Yes, yes, that's exactly. It's a yeah, I just wanted to say that. It's it's a very it's very good for your motivation. Because um, especially what you said, the uh, the second part, that you you listen to songs or to movies that you heard a long time ago, and you didn't understand what they were about, and suddenly you know what they're talking about. That's just that's a wonderful feeling.
Exactly.
Yeah, like, for instance, I can give a very real example here, the Tattoo group from Russia, or Tatu, I don't know how you say it in English. But um, they have a song called Nas Ne Dogonyat. And for a long time I was like, you know, I I I understood the translation because they also released it in English, but I was like, how is that ever going to turn into not gonna get us, or whatever, you know? And then I was like, ah, so that's that case. And the ah, I see. I see. That's like the third person. And so, it's you know, in English, we have a very sort of rigid scheme. It's like, we have the subject, and the verb, the the verb, and then the object, whatever, you know? It's like very fixed. But Russian is so fluid, and that was a real aha moment for me that I, ah, it's like the penny dropped.
Right.
Right.
So, there are
Right.
Right.
So it's close.
Right.
And that's a whole point, you know, languages are different, but the the function that they have are the same, you know, it's the same function. And on that note, um, I can see that we've just about reached the end, but before, are there any sort of concluding remarks you wanted to just throw in there at the end about reaching the the native like levels, the highest highest of levels.
Well, I don't think it's uh, it should be the ultimate goal for everyone. Mm-hmm. Because because it's just I like to have this goal because studying, not really studying, but speaking foreign languages in foreign language is something like I enjoy doing very, very much. And for me, the ultimate goal in in any language is to be able to talk like a native speaker. So, for me that is the goal. Um, but uh, I don't think this should be this should be a goal for everyone. Like it's it's definitely a very, very very um, sort of difficult objective to reach. Exactly. Ambitious. So, that's one one remark, maybe.
And uh, another remark is that it's really hard because going from maybe this is the Pareto law, which I'm not too familiar with, but I know it's the 80/20 principle. So, the the 80% and then the last 20%. So, the first 80% is going to take you the exact time as the last 20%, right? Or something like that. And uh, so sounding native is that 20%, where is going to happen, if not maybe even further than that, the last maybe five. So, if you look at the amount of time you have to invest in in making that difference, you really need to first ask yourself whether it's going to be even worth it because why why do that? So, if you don't have all those questions answered, then maybe sounding native is not something that is for you.
Um, if you do, then um, probably you are a very good language learner already because people who try to sound native, they usually don't need anything explained, they figure it out. Somehow. At least that that has been my observation. Like whenever I talk to people who that was, we were at the polyglot gathering, and I met so many so many people that, oh, you're American. Right. And we were like I was talking to that girl in German. I'm like, oh, all right. I didn't know that. Or there was this girl who was speaking Russian so well. It was just mind-blowing, and she was from Malaysia. Right. And, you know, you have a very American accent. Um, thank you. Well, you mean me or? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, I told you. I mean, I spent a lot of time in the States. So, I'm I'm cheating a little bit. But that makes sense. I think it's good. And it's also, you know, the entertainment industry is basically America, so if you watch any kind of movie, you sort of get ingrained in that in that accent anyway. Right, right, right, right.
Well, anyway, what I was what I was saying was that people who do want to sound native, and do have that objective, um, they're usually know what they're doing, and they will figure it out. So, and and probably much better than me telling them what to do because they are they know what their needs are and uh, so and or how they learn and and what what ways. So,
That makes sense.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, I told you.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's been my.
It's going to be good fun, I think. And all the usual suspects are going to show up. All right, cool. Well, um, thank you so much for coming on, and uh, good luck with with your projects. And uh, yeah, see you in New York, hopefully.
Thank you, Kris. It was a pleasure.
It was a pleasure. And I look forward to seeing you uh, somewhere in the world. I mean, we're not too far from each other right now, but I can imagine.
Hopefully, yes, hopefully yes. I would love to make it to the conference.
Yeah, it's gonna be good fun, I think. And all the usual suspects are gonna show up.
All right, cool. Well, um, thank you so much for coming on, and uh, good luck with with your projects. And uh, yeah, see you in New York, hopefully.
All right, cool. Well, um, thank you so much for coming on, and uh, good luck with with your projects. And uh, yeah, see you in New York, hopefully.
Thank you, Kris. Take care.
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