Victor Berrjod: Asian languages and gold listing!

Actual fluency podcast episode 28 with Victor from Norway who talks about learning Asian languages and goal listing. Welcome to the actual fluency podcast. The podcast that gives you the tools and inspiration to learn languages faster and more efficiently. And now your host, Chris Brohom.

Very well, thank you.

Fantastic. And uh I need to uh before we begin, I need to say that this is our third attempt at recording this and um before even getting to recording it, we've spent weeks planning it as well and Victor has to take refuge at his mother's place to record this, uh which I'm very grateful for by the way, Victor, thank you so much for.

Oh no problem.

taking the taking the time and the effort. And uh of course, you know, technical problems happen and uh we did an original recording and I didn't quite watch the time and then all of a sudden I got a Skype call that I couldn't ignore and uh we kind of had to rush it and we didn't like how it felt me and Victor, so we re-recorded it and 20 minutes into the call, the call drops and the recording corrupts, so we can't use any of that either. So, we're back and now we're here, now we're really sure of what to say. We almost got a script, um but um but we'll of course try to make it uh make it as good as the previous recording, or even better.

Yeah, well, you know, as all kids I started with English in school. And then um we got the option to select a second foreign language in middle school. So I took French and uh I kind of fell in love with language learning. I had a uh a teacher who was somewhat of a polyglot himself. Um so he he was kind of inspiring for me.

Yeah, that always helps, doesn't it when

Yeah, it does.

he's inspirational.

And then in um in high school, we could select a second foreign language. So I I did some Spanish and in the last year of high school, I found out that I could actually get like the points or credits that I needed from uh studying languages on my own.

Oh.

Because they schedule all of the language courses at the same time so you couldn't you couldn't really study more than one at once, but you could uh you could study on your own and still take the exam.

Ah, okay. So you got some free points that way.

Yes. I had a friend um who uh who I could speak German with. Uh-huh. Uh and so uh and my friend was kind of a grammar grammar geek as well. So if I had questions about grammar, I could always ask and um I had studied some Old Norse as a hobby. Uh I never learned to speak it, but you know, just uh learned to read it. And um uh you know, the grammar there was really similar to German, so uh that helped a lot.

Yeah, right. And and and what kind of level did you get these European languages to, because I know you're more of a into Asian languages, but but what what kind of level do you consider yourself in these languages today?

Well, uh just uh very basic conversational. So like I I could go and buy clothes in France, but um uh I'm a little bit higher in German, I think, because German is more similar to Scandinavian. Mm-hmm. Uh which helps a lot. Yeah, it does. Uh yeah. But uh like when I speak German, I I have lots of mistakes and everything. So it's not very advanced.

Right. But but still a little bit higher, but but that's good to know that you've kind of at at least gotten something out of school language learning because many people, you know, say they can't speak anything after having it for four or five years even.

Yeah, that's the thing. And uh you know, when you when you uh get really technical, you know, it's not really many years. It's uh it's just uh a few hundred hours.

Yeah, actually uh it's funny you mention that because one of the latest blog posts I put up was that I I took a test in the university for German because I just started my my minor degree in German. And we had to take a test and I tested at B1.

Oh, yeah.

W- uh and I I was like, I was a little bit bummed out because I was like, oh, I thought I was better. Um but then I did did the math and it turns out in those eight years that I've studied German in school, I've I haven't had more than 350 hours scheduled. So,

Ah, yeah.

And that kind of assumes, you know, that I was there every class which, you know, I wasn't. Let's be honest. So, So, it's I would say around 300 hours of German and if you if you kind of study a foreign language one hour a day for a year, I think you can get to an incredible level in in most languages.

Oh, you can.

So you're really right is that it it it's just so inefficient and you don't get a lot of hours even. So so that's that's that's definitely a good observation and funny if you mention it. I I literally just put it out like last week. So. That's a that's a funny coincidence. Um but then but then you went to to high school or was that

Uh no, I went to university after that.

University, of course, yes. And you decided, of course, on a language um bachelor's degree.

Yes. And um uh I was talking to my friend and uh we decided to learn um like a non-European language. And uh he suggested Japanese because he was into anime and uh and uh we we were both, you know, uh into Nintendo games. And uh so we decided to go with Japanese, you know, why not?

Yeah. That's a good attitude.

Yeah. Uh and um uh so we did uh the a bachelor's degree in Japanese language at the University of Oslo. Uh the classes were pretty good. And um uh it was more intensive than, you know, the courses in high school. So we learned a lot more and uh but when we went to Japan, uh the classes there were not very good. They were uh uh basically the teacher was just reading what was in the book.

Oh.

And uh so I decided to do some studying on my own and I started uh you know, boosting my knowledge of Chinese characters by um by means of uh uh a book called Remembering the Kanji by James Heisig.

And and just to just to take a step back here, when you were when you said that the classes in Japan weren't so good, did you get opportunities to kind of immerse yourself and go out on the street to practice or did you kind of continue to stay within your?

Oh, yes. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That must have helped loads anyway, right?

Well, the thing is that when you interact with people uh that you don't know, it's usually very shallow. Of course. And I I think actually your last interview with Anthony Lauder also touched upon this. Um like the most interactions are very shallow like uh exactly. I think, yeah, he used like the example of a bus ticket or something.

Yeah. And and I guess also what he's talking about is that each kind of sentence doesn't really have that much information in it or important things.

Yeah. And that's the thing, you know, when when we talk with uh friends or uh at least acquaintances, then uh you know, we can discuss uh more complicated things, but with strangers, you don't you don't usually get much beyond uh you know, I'm from Norway and I'm I've been learning Japanese this and this long.

Right. Yeah.

So um uh of course it's it's a way to uh kind of practice what you already know, but you don't usually learn that much from it.

Right. So you just get better at what you already can do.

Yeah, that's what

that's actually funny you say that because that's one of the uh that's one of the sort of internal criticisms I've had on the, you know, the fluent the speak from day one concept.

Yes.

Because I'm like, you know, while you can learn basic sentences to go out and use them, just speaking to people won't really, I mean, it will help you, but you're using what you already know.

Yeah, that's the thing.

If somebody tells you a word that you don't know, then you're not learning it on the street, then you're learning it if you, you know, go back and look it up or you put it into your your your deck or how many methods you have to use for it. But that's what I always uh saw as the criticism and you know, something like, you know, Mozo's McCormick is doing, he's running around uh Walmart's and he rarely uses uh sentences that are beyond his, you know, his program. He uses the the same sentences all the time. And it's fantastic, you know, I I really envy him for all the work that he's doing. But when you have a this kind of thing, you really need to couple it with desk time, I feel like, to really.

I think so too. Um you can't just go out and talk all the time. Even though that's fantastic and then it it helps your it helps you improve. You can't just um you can't you can't just go out and talk, I feel like. So I I definitely agree with you on that.

And uh like you can learn some things, but it the thing is that compared to learning on your own and then practicing it, uh you know, it's so inefficient.

Mm. So, sure, you can pick up a word here and a sentence pattern there, but when it comes down to it, you you will be using what you already know.

Yeah. I I totally agree. And and speaking of characters, that's something that a lot of people get scared of when they turn to the Asian languages.

Ah, yes.

Yeah. Did you did you have did you were you given any kind of tips or special strategies by the teachers or or that you that this book that you picked up would be helpful or or is it just the well, go home and memorize it kind of thing?

Uh it was uh like in the beginning she would explain some of the, you know, uh like etymology of some basic characters. Right. But uh eventually it was just, yeah, learn these characters. So, uh I I was kind of taken aback when I realized uh that some of the characters that I was having problems with, like, for example, the character for new, um that this character was actually composed of uh smaller characters that I also knew. Oh. And uh that revelation uh made me very susceptible to this uh book that I mentioned uh that I found online.

Right. the the title of it so people can uh look it up if they're interested in learning characters.

Ah, yes. Um, it's uh by James Heisig and it's called Remembering the Kanji.

Right. And Kanji is Japanese Chinese character in Japanese.

Right. And and he has uh I think uh a lot of magical tricks or tips that uh makes it easier. Uh basically his book is a list of characters going from very simple ones and then building up on the knowledge that you already have, uh introducing uh more and more complex ones. And um although normally characters are said to be composed of uh radicals, which is not wrong, uh but it's um the thing with Heisig is that he takes the characters and he use all the parts. Uh like he uh he will split the radicals into simpler pieces and uh he calls them primitives. Mm-hmm. And like some shapes of characters don't have a radical associated with them, but he he just uh make something up basically. Right. So uh all to make you uh remember it better.

Sounds pretty ingenious actually, when you think about it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I think it's a really good thing. And I um I uh you know, I I know not everybody likes it, but I always recommend trying it. And how many characters would a would a book like that get you through if you kind of studied it meticulously?

Uh let's see. The first book. Uh I I didn't use the third book, by the way. Uh I only used the first one and uh the second one is kind of different. It's just for readings, but so I I only use the first one. Yeah. Uh and uh it goes through all of the so-called Joyo Kanji, general use characters. Uh uh that are um like prescribed by the uh the Japanese government. Uh-huh. And uh they amount to about uh 2,000.

Right, so this is kind of like a frequency list of the 90th percentile or something.

Well, yes, you can say that. Uh not all of them are frequent, actually.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, that's the strange thing. There are uh characters that are not in this list that are more frequent than some characters that are in this list.

Okay. But but he didn't choose the list, did he? Or was that?

Uh no, he he just um uh he just uh did the whole Joyo Kanji list. So the government the the local uh government that's decided this is what you need to know basically.

Yeah, it's it's what you learn uh learn in school. Ah. So, yeah. And um So, 2,000 characters is a is a good kind of level to be at if you have anything to aim for as a beginner.

Yes. And um uh if you learn some more uh characters like, for example, commonly used name characters, uh then you might get to about uh 3,000 or something like that. Sure. And um uh I think if you do all of Heisig's books, you will get to like 3,000 or so, but uh I did the first one and then I discovered the Goldlist method.

Right. And uh That's that's uh let's talk about that actually because I know a lot of people are interested in new methods and particularly when it comes to vocabulary.

Yes.

So so if you could just take, you know, a minute or so however long you need to to describe how you would do a Goldlist for let's say Chinese characters or something.

Okay. I actually did take uh a whole year off from uh normal language learning just to learn more Chinese characters. Wow. That's a that's a dedication. Yeah. It was kind of Yes. Uh and uh I I really missed normal language learning that year. But um I did accidentally learn Cantonese that way. That's good. Because I was learning the characters with the uh like Mandarin and Cantonese pronunciation. Wow. And actually since I realized that it's easier to convert from Cantonese to Mandarin than the other way around, I emphasized the Cantonese pronunciation more. So, um by the end of the year, I could uh I could speak Cantonese uh because I had already studied some Mandarin. Yeah. And uh so I could just talk Cantonese with Mandarin grammar and vocabulary and gradually I would uh learn more Cantonese words.

Of course. So so what would you start out doing? Let's say you want to learn these 2,000 characters. Uh what's the first step?

Okay. So, uh the first uh step that I would do now uh would be to adapt the Goldlist method actually by uh so that I instead of doing like 25 uh lines, I would do, for example, three paragraphs because uh Heisig introduces some um stories to remember the characters. Uh-huh. And uh so I might just do a paragraph for each character and then shorten the paragraph uh after two weeks because after two weeks, if you still know it, then probably it's in your long-term memory, but if it's not, then you should write it again. Right.

You did 4,000 characters by hand in a year? Yes. So I I was kind of busy. That's a lot of work. Yeah. Um for people who are a little bit less ambitious, maybe you need to start with 2,000.

Yes. But I I I wouldn't I wouldn't do it this way if I were to start over now. But uh

Well, what would you what would you do differently?

Uh I wouldn't uh I would do Heisig with up to maybe 2,000, but I might stop at just 1,000. Okay. Uh because um when I did Heisig, uh I accidentally deleted my flashcard deck. Yeah. Uh and uh so I kind of stopped. But at that point, I had already committed uh around 1,000 characters to memory. And uh so it was it was not difficult to pick up new ones. Uh although, of course, you still need to learn them. So, uh I decided to uh just um do words. Uh I would uh just take the word list in my book and uh Goldlist it. So, I will put like one one word. And uh I would actually in the beginning, I put the pronunciation in Japanese and um and the meaning uh together with the characters uh on one line. Wow. Which is which is basically two words per line. Right. And that kind of gets a little cramped, maybe. Yes. And so I would remember like half a line here and half a line there. And I decided uh that I could either give up or I could just, you know, make it easier and uh just split them over two lines. So I decided to go for the latter.

That sounds like a pretty good idea. I don't like giving up in anything.

Yeah, exactly.

So you so you write these 25 or so characters down and then you what what's the next step?

Uh then uh what I do is that I check for mistakes. I just read through it and uh you know, check that everything is right. And then I um I wait for at least two weeks. Although in the meantime, I can do more pages. It's just I don't do the same page until two two weeks have passed. So, my record for one day is like uh 500 lines, but I wouldn't recommend that.

No, that is does to dawn, I suppose, or the other way around.

Yeah, well, I I usually try to avoid uh doing it when I'm really tired. Right. So, uh it was uh dawn to dusk. Okay. But um I uh you know, normally I will aim for like maybe two pages or four pages or something like that. Uh and um uh then I wait for at least two weeks before I look at it again and after two weeks, I can uh you know, I mark the ones that I know best. Uh and I aim for uh 30%. So, I try to uh like for for every word, I ask myself, do I know this well enough to cross it off and never see it again? Mm-hmm. And then I try to do that for at least eight.

But how do you know that exactly? Is it because that after two, if you remember something after two weeks, is it then committed to memory definitely or?

Well, the thing is that uh the assumption is that uh you know, you won't forget them again because probably you will have forgotten them after two weeks if you didn't already commit them to long-term memory. Right. Uh but uh of of course, you can't know that for every word. No. Uh but You forget words in Norwegian as well, presumably. Yeah, that's the thing. So, like one one time I was talking to my friend and was like, I hope they have enough, you know, uh these things that you sit on. And he was like, chairs. Yeah, exactly. That's what I Yeah. And that was in Norwegian, you know, so.

Yeah. I've heard that.

But uh yeah. But the thing is, um if I had seen the word chair written somewhere, Ah. I would never have uh you know, wondered, oh, what's that again? You know? Right. And that's the that's the thing here, too, because So it's about recall as well. Yes, because you can easily uh recall a word when you see it written or even hear it spoken. But um you might not be able to, you know, spontaneously think of it. No. And uh that's uh that's kind of the idea behind the Goldlist method that um you should, you know, expand your vocabulary and you should do it so that you emphasize the long-term memory because if you want to learn lots of languages, you can't keep all of them uh active at the same time. No. And um so you acquire vocabulary in many languages. For example, let's say you want to learn them really well and you learn 15,000 words per language. And uh and then once you have learned uh 10 languages, uh you have a busy job and you have a family because uh you're grown up by then, you know. Yeah. And uh you're really busy, but um you still have the vocabulary so you can you can still read uh you know, all 10 of the languages, but uh once you have to speak them, maybe you'll be very slow in the beginning and then, you know, after a few days of speaking them, you will be up to speed again. Mm-hmm. Uh so that's kind of the uh the reason uh why I really like this uh method.

That's pretty cool. So it's kind of like um dormant memory.

Yeah, sort of. You could say that. It's like uh you have a uh treasure chest and uh you just bring it out when you need money.

Yeah, exactly. And of course, uh I I tried this. Yeah. And I I did it for for Russian and I I like to try new methods because first of all, it's exciting to try new things. And secondly, I'm always interested in, you know, testing what's out there for for so people can at least get one opinion on it. And the thing that I found was uh that the uh I I just lacking the patience to do the writing itself. And I wasn't really lacking the patience to, you know, do it. It's only 25 words or I mean, I suppose you should probably do more than 25 in a day, to be honest. I mean, it only takes about 15, 20 minutes, so. Yeah. You should probably do more than 25 if you're serious about your language. But what I just realized is that, you know, 15, 20 minutes for me was just too much mentally to set aside and I didn't have the patience to to just get it done.

Ah, yeah.

it is difficult for a language that's very foreign. But if I'd done it on German or Italian or something where the vocabulary is is quite similar, then I'm sure I would have remembered at least 30%. So, the system works. There's no doubt about it. But I I just want to emphasize that no method is kind of like the works for everyone.

Yeah.

You have to really test it out. And I mean, it worked great for you and I saw one of your books in in Berlin, one of the a bronze book, I think, maybe.

Ah, yes. The they are kind of divided into bronze book, being the first one, then silver book and then gold book because, you know, you get maybe four lists like each list of 25 will become four list in in each book kind of. Mm-hmm. So, once you do four lists, you select from several lists and put them into a new book in exactly the same way. Exactly. You can imagine how the first list is down to one or two words and then you put it over in a new book or something.

Yeah, usually it's like nine, but yeah.

So, you must step up your game then. Oh, okay. No, no, I know what you mean. But I'm thinking about going from silver to to um to gold, wouldn't you? Or or because you compose it of different bronze ones. You still have nine. Ah. But it gets harder and harder, I suppose. I mean, the the words that you continues continually don't remember are the ones that you're left with.

But actually, the thing is, uh although those are kind of the difficult words, uh the fact is that actually it gets easier because you've seen them so many times. Right. So, so like, yeah, maybe the first couple of distillations, which is what I call it when I remove the ones I know best. Mm-hmm. Uh well, it's not really my word. It's David James invented the method and all the vocabulary to go with it. But um what I uh like the first couple ones are usually the hardest ones and then it gets all downhill from there, well, uphill. Uh well, it gets better. It gets better. Yeah. I I think that um that idiom is changing, at least in Denmark.

Yeah. I never really understood it anyway because for me, when something is uphill, it's really hard.

Yeah, that's the thing. But I think people in Denmark say it when they think that uphill is positive, like something is, you know, going upwards as in becoming better.

Yeah. And like downhill would be easier, but it's it's like you don't want stuff to go downhill.

No, particularly not a ship or, you know, airplane.

That's the thing. I wouldn't want any of those. I wouldn't want the stewardess to say it's going downhill now.

Yeah, exactly.

But but still it's a it's a different ambiguity with that idiom.

Yeah.

So, all right. So, so you're you're you got the Japanese, you got the Cantonese, the Mandarin and then I suppose the the next step would be Korean, maybe.

Ah, yes. I'm writing my thesis on Korean vowels now. Right. And that's uh sorry, but that sounds a little bit dry. Not Yeah, well, it's not maybe it's not the most interesting thing, but it's um you know, it's something that I'm interested in and uh Of course. It was it was actually, to be honest, it was uh the reason I selected this was partly because it was interesting, but, you know, also because I wanted an excuse to learn Korean. Right. And you did that then. Yes. So, I I've um I've learned about 3,000 words on Korean and um I went to Korea to Seoul and Pyongyang. And uh I I I can speak some basic Korean, but it's not not nothing impressive or anything. It's just uh very basic.

Well, 3,000 words, you probably just need more practice using them.

Possibly. I mean, that's a that's a lot of words, I would say. But actually, I I must remember now I I must admit that uh I relied way too much on Japanese in that project because I thought that I could just learn the words and then I could worry about uh grammar later because it was probably going to be the same as Japanese grammar anyway, but uh you know, I I must admit that I should have paid more attention to grammar while while doing it.

Right. Yeah. Actually, that's probably a pretty good tip to just emphasize there because you know, words are it's good to know words, but I I feel like that I I've been doing exactly the same for my Russian. Most of my Russian studies have been revolving around flashcarding or doing any kind of like word remembering. Yeah. And the grammar that I've done has been kind of sporadic just kind of reading through the grammar book and doing some basic exercises and stuff, but if I'd done, let's say, half and half or something, which you probably need to do for for a period of time, then I think I would be more confident in my grammar use. So, maybe that's a little kind of a a top tip there where don't just put all your focus on the acquisition of words because words are useless if you don't know how to connect them.

Well, uh they are uh they are useful, but unimpressive if you don't know how to connect them. Yeah, right. If you went on like, you know, uh name as many words as possible quiz show somewhere then they would be useful, but uh

Well, you you can still like order food like if you know the name of a dish. Uh even even though you can just say, you know, potatoes. Right. For example, and if you want potatoes, then you know, no problem. Right, that's correct. But if But uh it's not impressive at all, you know.

Right, exactly. And I I I think I see a lot of people focus a lot of on vocabulary, you know, on Memrise. You can like leaderboards. I've added a lot of people from the the community that I know, some of my friends from Berlin and and stuff. And I see some of them, they just do, you know, obviously they get addicted to the game element as well, but I mean some of them are doing like eight to 10 languages and they're doing it like a few hours a day. Ah, yeah. Just doing words. And it's like, you know, I I I think it's very inspiring because obviously I I don't do that. So I feel a little bit guilty. Um but on the other hand, I I really hope that they that they also take some time to learn the some other parts of the language.

Yeah, because like words are definitely the biggest part because there are thousands of words. Uh but, you know, you need the grammar, too, because otherwise you won't know how to use the words and how to combine them and into sentences, you know? Mm-hmm. So, uh I think it's better to like if you have a course book, for example, um what I would do is to go through the course book like in order and just uh go list vocabulary and grammar rules, you know, at the same time.

Right. Have you tried have you tried using the Goldlist for for grammar?

Oh, yes. Uh you know, I was studying a little bit of Ancient Greek in university. Yeah. And uh just a very small thing. Uh but uh what I found was uh that uh in the beginning, I only did words, but then I couldn't read anything because I didn't know how the words were working. So, I I had to kind of switch over to uh both uh grammar and vocabulary at the same time. That's cool. And yeah, and and you know, eventually you will run out of grammar anyway. So.

Sure. I mean, that's that's the beauty of of of languages is that the grammar is a finite kind of uh beast. It there's there's uh barriers of entry into the grammar. Whereas you can add new words to the language. And I don't even know how many words there are in a language. I mean, in English, I don't I have no idea. I I guess Yeah, let's see. English 150,000, maybe, I don't know.

No, the the biggest dictionary that I know about, I think it's like the Oxford English Dictionary or something. Yeah. It has well over 100,000 entries. But uh keep in mind that this is also uh it's like uh sure, they are English words, but most English speakers don't know them. Right. But yeah, but that's the point. That's that's exactly the point that there's no, well, maybe it's possible to to memorize 100,000 words in one language. Oh, it is. But it's not very useful. Right, exactly. That's the point. But it's very useful to take the time, the limited time, I would say, that it takes to learn the grammar rules. Like my grammar book only has 30 chapters, for instance. Yes. I mean, that would be, you know, obviously some chapters have more than one rule. But that's a very I would say a very um controlled number. That's very easy to to look at and say, okay, 30 chapters, 30 days, a chapter a day, and then kind of goldlist or put into Anki the important things that you need to memorize. Yeah. Because obviously a lot of the chapters are just describing the rules. They're not the rules themselves. Yeah. So uh you can if you do that, then I think you have a winner. Maybe. Yeah. I think so, too. Because uh like the grammar being finite, as you say, you know, uh you can always find exceptions and you can always find strange things that you could argue is grammar, but uh you can cover the main aspects of the grammar in a very short span of time. Right. Even even for very grammatically heavy languages like uh like Greek, for example. Uh I I came just from from Chinese, which uh has very, very simple grammar. Right. I've heard about that. Yeah, to Greek, you know. Yeah. I went from Danish, English, and German to Russian. So, Yeah. So, you know exactly what I'm talking about. A bit of a leap. But uh but the beauty of the beauty of the heavy uh grammar languages like Russian is that it the rules are very fixed. There are very few exceptions. Like literally when when you read a rule, for instance the I think it was the instrumental case or something. It's it's there was literally four exceptions to one of the rules. Four words that were exceptions to the rule. And the same with, you know, genders. In German, the genders have tons of different rules and you can use like rules of thumb to indicate a gender in in German. But there are so many exceptions. And in Danish and Norwegian, I guess it's even worse because it just seems completely arbitrary. I mean, there's no Ah, yes. There's no rhyme or reason. It's just like, you know, we've decided this should be A and this should be B. But but you know, it it is like this, you know.

But uh it it also it also varies a bit because in Old Norse, it was uh there was rhyme and reason to it. Uh not not all of the time, of course, but uh for example, if something ended in A, Uh-huh. uh a noun ending in A, then you would know automatically that it was feminine because there were that's fantastic. I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there was only like uh less than 10 exceptions to this rule. There you go. What happened, man? What happened to our language? Yeah. But the thing is in my dialect, it still works. You know. Oh, really? Yeah. Because like in in Denmark, you don't have the A ending anymore. So, that rule doesn't help. But in Sweden, uh there is still the A ending and uh this works. Although they don't have the feminine anymore, but you can still tell that it's uh common, you know. Right. Yeah. And uh and in in the west of Norway, we we also have A, uh so we can we can know this. So you have more So Denmark is basically just screwed. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, Denmark and East of Norway, you know, it's What do we do? Because I so many people ask me about learning Danish and they tell me, how do I know if it's en or et? Either the common gender or the neuter gender? Yeah. And I just say, there's no way to know. You just need to learn. Yeah. And that's the thing. You just have to learn it. It's so stupid, isn't it? Why don't we just get one gender like English and just don't worry about it? Well, you know, you could do that, but you would you would kind of uh lose out on a lot of interesting things. Yeah. But it's funny, isn't it? Because Old Danish used to have three. We used to have three. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like like the other Scandinavian languages. And and it doesn't seem to me that getting rid of one of them is a particularly good solution. It only seems to make it worse. Well, you know, Sweden also has like uh at least standard Swedish. I I am not so good at dialects around in Sweden, but uh standard Swedish has two genders like Danish. Right. And uh they have both uh the old A endings and uh the E endings, you know? Yeah. So, if something ends in A in Swedish, you will know that it's um it's either one of the exceptions, of which there are less than 10 and uh all of the exceptions are um uh are uh neuter. Mm-hmm. Uh or, you know, if it's not one of the exceptions, it will be common. Right. So, then then it would be less screwed if you just said kept the A ending. Right. And it and and but the problem I guess I have with it is that it doesn't change the understanding. You know what I mean? It's like Yeah. When you have Russian, for instance, uh if I said an English sentence with the Russian grammar, then I could say book Victor's. Uh-huh. That would be Victor would be in the genitive. Yes. Because the that's, you know, the owner of the book. Or is it the book that's in genitive? No, no matter. You understand what I'm saying. But in Danish, it's the order of words that dictate uh who is in what position. Yeah. Like the the the subject comes first, the nominative and then you have, you know, the verb and then the object. Yeah, that's your common common sentence pattern. Right. That's the order we have. And if we don't follow this order and of course then we have the uh the direct object at the end. Uh sorry, the indirect object at the end. Uh or no, before the direct object. No way. Yeah. No, I'm confused. If if I Well, well, the thing is you have many constructions, but like um the very basic construction of uh of a sentence with um uh we call a transitive verb. Right. Uh is you know, subject, verb, object. And then you can uh you can have one construction that has the indirect object at the end. Like uh uh I think in Danish you would you would also say, um I give uh a book to Chris. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's correct. And you can also say I give Chris a book. Right. Yeah. So both of them work. But you need a preposition for the last for the if you need to put it at the end though. Yes. Right. Uh so, yeah. Right. Okay, but that's that's it's it's very interesting and I I can only, I mean this this is the why I would get into linguistics. Yeah. To look at these kind of um sentence patterns and sentence construction. I I find that very interesting. It is interesting. And that makes something but I still prefer sounds. No, no, that's that's I mean, that's your cup of tea, obviously, but but um but yeah, and you know, it's it's been a great pleasure and you know what? I'm so happy that we uh actually managed to get uh this episode recorded after so much trouble. But um here on the uh in the last minute or two, can you give any kind of you know, so many people want to learn Asian languages. And we also we already gave some tips on the characters. But can you give any kind of tips to how to attack learning let's say something like Mandarin if you don't know anything about it. What's what's kind of some of the the secrets that you've discovered through learning it?

Well, um like for Mandarin, it has a very simple grammar. So, uh obviously you still need to learn the simple grammar, but it won't take so long. Uh and, you know, so the the main uh difficulty lies in obviously the characters, although you can get away with not learning them if you want to. Sure. But uh the main uh you know, difficulty will be in pronunciation. So, uh like um if you if you know uh some phonetics, then it will be much easier. Okay. Uh and uh you know, even if you know phonetics, you might have trouble with tones, for example, but um

Right. So, how would you how would you what would be the best mode of attack to learn tones if you're not familiar with any tonal language?

Uh actually, what I like to do is to use uh Praat. It's uh it's Dutch for uh well, I I think you can say Praat in Danish.

No.

No. Okay. Uh it's a uh a phonetic program. So, you can you can take any um you know, audio file and uh open it in Praat. And then you you can set it to just display tones.

Ah. So, you see the the the wave length or the

Yeah, you see what we call a spectrogram. So, you have uh you can see if you're used to reading it, then you can see, okay, here is a fricative, here is a vowel.

Oh, wow. And so. Is that what that's what you really like doing then at the

Yes. So, this is the program I use for my thesis.

Ah.

Uh because uh I can set it to display vowel formants. So, I can kind of read the vowels from the from the thing and uh I can extract the exact values from from the program. That's pretty cool, actually. And you uh you the really cool thing uh in discussing Mandarin, for example. If you want to learn tones, you can set it to just display tones. And uh then you can see tones going up, tones going down, tones going, you know, straight. Right. And up and down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of this stuff. So, you can just open a Chinese sound file, for example, in there and uh you can see where the tones are going. And then you can record yourself and uh you know, analyze it in the program. Match it up. Yeah, exactly. So, you can just practice getting the tones.

Right. Because the the thing about tones that I've, you know, I haven't studied much Chinese at all, but what I what I'm really fascinated by is, you know, if you give me a Chinese word and tell me the tone, I can kind of, you know, I can kind of work towards that, like, wuh, you know, it goes down then it goes up. I don't know how correct that was, but just for the sake of working That that sounds fine to me. Let's say it was correct for the sake of argument. But when people speak in Chinese in very in a very fluid setting, damn, it's fast. Yes. And How do you get the tones in and so those in space? That that seems incredible.

Well, actually, uh when you are speaking fast, you don't pronounce uh the tones like you do in isolation. Uh I mean, you you're kind of still aiming uh towards the general shape of them, but uh you're not you're not making them as uh you know, uh what do you say, perfect. Uh so if you if you do full tones when you're speaking fast, then uh it sounds strange. Of course. Uh for example, the third tone, it's usually described as a dipping tone like uh wuh. But uh uh you normally you wouldn't pronounce it like that because uh it would sound really, really strange. So, you take takes time to to do it in each word then. Yeah. And um it sounds really unnatural if you do that. But if you if you instead just pronounce it as a very low tone, uh then it sounds much more natural.

Right. Yeah. And they teach this presumably in in Chinese courses or do they just stick to the text uh

Uh no, no, I think they I think they teach it. Uh actually actually my Chinese textbook uh was talking about this. So, yeah, it's it's

Yeah. That's good to know because for for a beginner like me, it it does it it does seem a little bit challenging. Let's put it that way. Yeah, well, it was to me, too. Don't worry. And then, of course, uh Cantonese has a few uh a few more, right?

Yeah. So, Cantonese is like six contrasting tones and um is usually said to have more. And also it can depend on where you're from, too. Because I have a friend from um uh Guangzhou in Southern China.

Yeah, I've heard I've heard that. That's a very big technological uh place.

Ah, yeah. They produce a lot of uh of the world's uh electronics.

Oh, is that uh Shenzhen?

Um yeah, they do as well. But what was the first one you said? Uh, uh Guangzhou or Guangzhou? Right. Yes. Depending on uh whether you want to say the Mandarin name or the Cantonese one.

Yes. Yeah, I've heard of that. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. But um I have a friend from there who pronounces uh who who also has uh a seventh tone. Oh, wow. Um because uh I'm not exactly sure if there are rules for when to use which, but basically it's the uh old uh first tone that uh has kind of split into two. Right. So, you have one high tone like, for example, uh tang and then you have one falling tone. Uh for example, uh how. I see. Uh so, the first time I talked to her in person, I was kind of surprised when uh she said uh instead of um uh for example, how you, she said how you. Right. And and and if if people uh don't really see the difference between the two things you just said, then that will come when you get into learning it more, I suppose.

Oh, yes. Uh it's uh in in the beginning it's hard to hear the difference and sometimes if people say words in isolation, I I still have trouble, you know, hearing the exact tones. Right. So, I I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything.

No, no, no. Well, I'm thank I thank you for for for being in the in the hot hot seat anyway. But um I mean, is it every, you know, there are words where the tone defines the meaning. So, obviously then it's really important with tones. But are there many of these or is it, you know, is it dangerous to say the wrong tone? I guess is my question.

Uh it can be, but uh usually it's uh very clear what you mean anyway because uh most words have more than one syllable. And that's already reduces the uh the amount of homophones. But you do still have lots of homophones. Um so, let's see. Can I think of some I've heard the one for ma. Ah, yes. Yeah. But uh I I think usually they say um uh mama. I I forgot which order it is. But uh it's like a sentence that means uh uh my my mother like uh scolds the horse or something. Exactly. But uh like most of these uh words like ma on its own is uh usually not used. So, you would have mama, for example. All right. Yeah. Uh meaning mother. Uh-huh. And uh horse on its own is ma, but um uh so No, no, no. Uh they have different tones. Right. but Same uh letters or Yeah. Yeah, anyway. Yeah.

But you know, Victor, we could talk about um Chinese uh pronunciation for for weeks, I suppose and uh I think I think I I just want to, you know, round it off before we drift off into the wonders of uh Chinese too much. And uh and thank you for for for your insights and and for coming on the show and having the patience to to complete it. I mean, this has been uh a pleasure as always and all of the interviews have been a pleasure uh for me with you even though we had to redo it a few times. But uh but you know, thank you so much for coming and I I I'm looking forward to seeing you uh at least in Berlin next year. I'm assuming you're coming and uh and then we can have

Ah, yes. Uh thank you for having me on the show.

Thank you for listening to the Actual Fluency podcast. For more information, be sure to check out actualfluency.com. Until next time, enjoy learning and have a great day.