Andrew Feinberg: Learning Japanese and Japanese Culture

Welcome to the Actual Fluency Podcast. Each week you'll find inspirational, motivational interviews with some of the world's best language learners, industry experts, all trying to help you to learn foreign languages better, faster and more efficiently. And here we go.

Sure thing. Thank you so much, Chris, for having me back on. Uh, it's been quite some time. I would say, uh, well, in the meantime, I've gotten a master's degree. I got a master's degree in Norway. Uh, and then immediately, I decided to move to Japan, and I'm now, uh, teaching English in Japan.

Cool. So what what are the requirements, uh, outside being, uh, native English speaker? Do you need to have a a degree in in languages, or any kind of diploma or or anything?

Yes. You do need a bachelor's degree. It doesn't matter what it's in.

I think that's stupid.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, yeah. The bachelor's degree is just to, I think, to put the point across that you know how to write English well, you, uh,

Yeah.

you're a serious and sincere person.

I see. Yeah. But it could be a bachelor in, like, music theory or,

Right. Anything.

Right.

Right. And they might I think they take that into account when they place you. So, like, uh, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to teach kindergarten, but there's plenty of, uh, you just have to have a a good, a good way with kids. So,

Yeah.

uh, it doesn't like, the the strenuousness and, um, like the type of strenuousness that you face in that in this kind of job is, um, really dependent on your title and, like, where you're placed.

Yeah. I could definitely imagine that. But that's a great, it's a great, um, thing to mention as well because I often have people ask, like, I'd like to travel, I'd like to do something with languages and often it's it's kind of unrealistic just to go to another country without any way of earning an income, but actually, I think English programs are there are quite a lot of them.

Yes. It's a fantastic, um, it's a fantastic way to live in Asia if you have no other way of getting here. And, um, it's one to five years. It's, it's all run by the Japanese and US governments. So, it's not it doesn't have that sketchiness feeling that often times the private companies can have.

Indeed. And last time, I remember the big focus on the episode was the Norwegian language, which you shared your passion about. And if people are interested in learning Norwegian, definitely go back and listen to that. But when did you when did you get an interest for Asia? Because I'm sure you could have gone anywhere you want to in the world and learn any language. So where did you first pick up that interest?

Uh, it's been a long time. Like, I'm a 90s kid, so I really grew up on Pokémon, Mario, Nintendo, Zelda. And, um, I don't know, there's sort of this been, um, I don't know, like, there's a coolness factor involved in Japanese things that, um, just really drew me in from the 90s.

Wow, that sounds like a massive undertaking.

It took quite some time. It's I've been working on it since, uh, for about six months now, I'd say.

Right. It's really impressive. I'm I'm really happy to see that they're building out more of the, you know, different scripts and and character-based languages and not just, uh, the Latin ones. Uh, I think that's a great progress.

Likewise, of course.

It's good to see, uh, a nice spread. So, what are the, I mean, this is an extremely leading question, but but what are the big differences between, uh, learning a language like Norwegian, which is very similar to English and kind of the way it works and and the grammar and then, uh, a language like Japanese, which is different in in it seems like every possible way?

It's, uh, it's the difference between walking out onto the hill outside, like, outside your hotel room, and just sort of walking 10 minutes up a hill and climbing up a very tall, imposing mountain. It's, um, I wouldn't say it's fundamentally different. I would say it just it takes a lot more time. I think it's a it's a real time commitment, uh, but it's certainly in theory, like, you still deal with the same linguistic pedagogy situation that you would have in learning any other language.

Right. Yeah, that's fundamentally different at least.

Yeah.

I guess one thing we should just weave in as well is in is that there's the at the time of this recording, there's about, what, a little bit over six months until the Polyglot Conference takes over Fukuoka in Japan. So I'm sure there are a lot of people listening who might be wanting to go to that and and thinking, what can I do in, like, let's say, a six-month period? So maybe you want to let's start off with how did you get started learning Japanese, and what kind of materials and resources make sense to begin with, just to, you know, give them that kind of starting point? Because I can imagine that you can do a lot of things with Japanese to to learn it, but but let's say somebody has a has a deadline or or wants to do as much as possible in in six months. What would you recommend as the starting point?

Ah, that's a great question. I would say, um, please come to the conference because Japan is a beautiful country, a wonderful place to to visit. And, um, it's a beautiful, um, harbor town, Fukuoka, in the southwest of Japan.

Right. And it wasn't it wasn't that big of a challenge. It's not like learning 2,000 characters or anything.

No, no, no, no. There's, um, there's about 50 of each, I would say. If you don't include the diacritic marks, which change the, um, which turn the consonant sounds, um, which devoices the consonant sounds, like, it changes the k into a g. Things like that. It's about, um, 50 characters for each. So about 100 in total.

That's not so bad, and I'm sure there are lots of flashcard sites that have those ready for you just to go through.

Those are definitely your that's your step one. That's the first and most important step.

So you can read.

Exactly. You can read kids' books at that at that level. But, um, anything anything more than that, you're going to need some kanji.

Right. The, uh, scary characters that everyone is, uh, yeah, kind of nervous about. But that's the same for Chinese, right? When people learn Chinese, they or they're thinking about it, they think about the characters and they kind of shudder a little bit, you know.

Right. They shouldn't because it ultimately is a great help, um, when you're reading a word that you don't know, if you recognize the characters around it, and or if you recognize the characters within the word, they often give a great hint, um, as to the meaning or the pronunciation or both of the word. So, they're very, very helpful. And there's because they're not maybe in a given Japanese sentence, there might be, uh, four to eight kanji about. Um, it's not quite as many as Chinese, and they're they're sort of you can be introduced to them gradually in a way that's really impossible with with Chinese. With Chinese, it's just like, um, you know, opening up a faucet and then getting a waterfall.

Right.

With the amount of kanji. Exactly. It's just like every new word is another kanji, at least in in Japanese, you have a few breaks.

Right. But maybe, maybe if I can ask a little stupid question, because I I've never started Japanese. I've never been to,

Go right ahead.

even been to Asia, but let's say I pick up the newspaper. And you've got two different scripts, and you got the characters. Like, would it be just a mishmash of all those three at the same time? Or would it

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And in Japanese, it's really not so strange. That's so hard to get your head around, I think, if you haven't seen it.

Oh, and I think it's it's actually quite beautiful. And, uh, it's incredibly it's one of the greatest joys of learning Japanese, the fact that there's the three scripts because there are no spaces in your typical Japanese sentence. And so the three different scripts serve as a way of of blocking off the content words in your brain.

Right. So when people speak and just continuing the the the question here.

Yeah, yeah.

Obviously, if I have six months or however long I have, it's going to be hard to learn enough kanji, I assume, to let's say, pick up the newspaper or, you know, read a a native-level book. But what about the the speaking? How how many how how does that work, basically, and and how much do I need?

How does speaking work?

Yeah, how does speaking work? Because I honestly don't know. Um, that would be a great title for the show. How does speaking work? Um, but, you know, if if you have in text, you have a mixture of all three. Is it then simpler, as as many languages? Or does it follow the same kind of recipe?

So I how I would talk about speaking in Japanese would be your beginning materials in, uh, a typical Japanese textbook would be rather heavy on hiragana and katakana. They don't want to spook you away with too many kanji.

Right.

Uh, but I would say in terms of speaking, you you basically are introduced to the language, uh, this there's you want to start out by talking about the fact that Japanese has different levels of formality. Uh, and there's three major ones. There's sort of polite, um, casual, and keigo.

Right. Like, sir and madam kind of.

Exactly. So you, um, it's kind of tough. You want to tackle, like, I think it's best just at the very beginning to tackle just the the medium politeness level and just sort of get a feel for the language that way.

Yeah, I see. Yeah.

So, I would say that, like, oh, you'll only use it in business settings, but even if you come to Japan for five days, you're going to, you're going to need to at least understand, um, some of the most formal Japanese.

Right. And how does how does it get received if, let's say, you walk up and you use the super casual for someone you don't know, and but you're clearly a foreigner?

Oh, um, they will you'll get you'll get no trouble whatsoever.

Okay.

I think I think if you're if you're if you're not Japanese, people really let you off the hook.

We'll just take a quick break to hear from our sponsor, iTalki. We'll be right back.

Japan is a wonderful place to learn the local language, um, because Japanese people in general, they love when people learn their language, and they're very, very helpful in responding to you in Japanese, and, uh, doing their best to speak in simple Japanese.

Yeah.

Um, and it's like it can get annoying if you're in Germany to practice German. Uh, but in Japan, that kind of thing doesn't happen. Um, I think because Japanese people are so shy about their own English skills that if you show the inclination to use Japanese, they're happy to go along with you.

Right. So that's good news.

And you won't get sent to the courts for, uh, being, uh, impolite to a a stranger.

Oh, not at all. Um, but I think they, as as early as possible, like, the the Japanese textbooks, like, they teach you the the sort of medium level polite Japanese, so that it's sort of the go-to in your brain whenever you speak Japanese, you're going to end a sentence with mas. Which is the typical, uh, mid-level polite politeness ending for verbs.

Wow.

And it's just a completely different derivation, a different set of kanji. And that kind of three-level, um, three-level, like, sort of setup that you have for that one verb that exists for many, many verbs. So, um, on different politeness levels, you'll not only use different verbs, but you'll use different nouns, different adjectives, and even in some cases, different adverbs.

Wow. So, it's a totally different language almost, or maybe it is actually.

I I think you're on to something there.

It's good to be different. Maybe well, I mean, that those are possibly some of the things that do scare people a little bit with Japanese, but I'm glad that you, uh, cleared up some of the, uh, the myths about, uh, politeness there or some of my fears about how, uh, how you're going to be received. Because I know some countries they can get quite upset, uh, if you, like, speak without the very polite form and to a stranger. But, um, but it's good to hear that that isn't the case. So, when people come for the conference or or visiting at another time, they they will be forgiven in in many of the cases.

Yes. You will hear, um, you'll hear two things in Japan quite a lot from Japanese people when they see you. Um, they'll say if you if you say, um, like, arigato gozaimasu, which means thank you very much, it's a very polite, perfectly fine way to say thank you. If you just say that, they'll just look at you and be in awe, and they'll say, "Nihongo jouzu," which means, "Your Japanese is great."

Right.

And, uh, that's all you need to say. And, um, and let's say you know how to use chopsticks. A lot of Japanese people are shocked and amazed that that non-Asian people can use chopsticks. And they'll say, "Oh, Hashi jouzu," they'll say, "You are great at using chopsticks."

Really?

And this will be something that will shock and surprise them, and, um, and maybe it won't shock younger people, but definitely someone who's middle-aged or older, um, and had maybe a different vision of Westerners growing up. They might not, um, they might not be familiar with the idea that we also eat Asian food outside of Asia.

Right. Occasionally, yeah. But the method for learning Japanese or or the, I don't know, the tools and and tricks. Obviously, we talked about Duolingo. You used for are there any other resources that you would highly recommend for beginners to use for Japanese?

Yeah. Well, I think, um, I think good old pens and paper are amazing for learning Japanese. Um,

How so?

I I'd say, like, when you write something down, when you write down hiragana and katakana and you speak it while you write it, um, you get a good sense for, like, the stroke order of the the different lines, it's going to stick in your brain much better than just using a computer. Um, if you use a brush, that's even better, because it's even more authentic feeling. Uh,

Right. And there are, like, books or something that or online places where they help you with that? Because I assume it's quite a.

Oh, quite a few.

Okay, good. Because it's quite a lot of work, I will say, if you needed to, like, research all the all the characters and stroke orders and stuff before you could get started.

I, um, I don't represent, uh, JET, nor do I represent Duolingo as a volunteer, but I do want to, uh, give a shout-out to a couple of really great books that I think, uh, if you're learning Japanese, you should definitely use.

Okay.

by, uh, Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui. And this book, it's a big, expensive, it's like, it's a thick book, but it actually it fits in the palm of your hand. Um, it's about $2800 yen, which is about $25, but I think it might be more expensive abroad.

Right. And it's like, uh, you look up things when you need them kind of thing or do you go through it?

Um, I've actually had friends here in Japan who have said that they've read the whole book cover to cover.

Okay.

And, um, one particularly nerdy friend did that. Um, but I'd say, definitely, if you come if you stumble across, um, maybe there's a word that you've seen many times, and you just don't know how it's used or what it means. And it's usually the words that are written in by themselves that represent, um, grammatical words. Right. And those words you want to look up with this kind of a book. Um, uh, the word, like, Koto, CO T O, which can mean many, many many different things. It's quite it pops up pops up quite often in Japanese. So to see the different usages, you'll want a book like this.

Fantastic. Any other methods or resources you you use? Do you did you use, um, like, a teacher or did you go to a class or or any of that?

I I had one Japanese class in Norway that was pretty decent. Uh, I loved my teacher. Maybe the learning style wasn't great.

That's a lot.

Quite a lot. But it's, uh, I got I got the $50 worth out of it.

For sure. Yeah. I think I did the math on eight years of German in school, and I got to about 300 hours. So,

Yeah.

600 is is amazing.

But believe it or not, you might have gotten farther in German given the similarities in Danish.

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, I I'm sure that 300 hours in Japanese wouldn't get me very far, but in German, I was I understood almost everything.

Mhm.

Speaking was a little bit iffy, but in a pinch, you know, I could, but understanding-wise, yeah, I've got almost everything, because that's what school focuses on. It's like reading and and listening comprehension. But the actual production, it doesn't really, well, maybe some schools do nowadays, but back then, it was definitely not the case. It was a lot of conjugation tables and, like, reading, listening, that kind of thing.

I know that production in Japanese can be often daunting to second-language learners because they, uh, the word order being subject-object-verb and the, um, the hesitance to get something wrong, uh, when you don't when you're kind of shaky on all of the vocabulary in a given sentence is, um, is really intimidating for people when they start speaking Japanese.

Have no fear. Have no fear. And of course, and of course, an event like, like the ga the Polyglot Conference is a great kind of, uh, excuse as well, if you have been interested in learning Japanese for a while, and you think, okay, I need to have something to do it for, right? Then it gives you that push that you you might need to, uh, to just, uh, get a move on, because, you know, you will never learn it if you don't get started. That's the first thing. And, uh, you know, again, which it's a recurring theme in in the podcast, is that a little bit that you do is infinitely better than not doing anything. I mean, that's kind of obvious, but but I think some people see language learning as a binary thing that either you have learned something or you haven't. But I think learning just a sentence, like you said, if you if you know how to say thank you in in in the proper way, then people would go crazy almost, you know. And and so spending just that five minutes learning that sentence would be a massive inven well, a really good investment of time come to what experiences you can get with it. Um, yeah. And I think that doesn't change, no matter what language you're learning. Or wherever you're going in the world, like, just a couple of words and phrases here and there, you you just make people's day sometimes, because it's it's clear you're not you're not Japanese if you go. So they know that you would have had to learn it somewhere, and and it's really a it's almost like an experience for them as well.

Oh, yes. And they will they'll be very expressive with, uh, their reactions to you speaking. Like, it's very, very, uh, fun to see reactions from people when even if you just use the most simple Japanese.

I'm thinking of those silly Japanese game shows now where they have those over-the-top expressions or, like, even anime, you know, I I haven't watched much anime, but, like, an example I used to watch when I was a kid was, like, Pokémon. All the expressions were so over the top, you know, every time there was some some incident happened or some it just this, like, you know.

Oh, yes.

this massive reactions. So, I'm almost visualizing that would happen on the street of Tokyo or Fukuoka when we go there.

It's not far off, actually. Like, um, I think one Japanese word that, like, is ingrained into my everyday vocabulary now is, uh, Which is just, like, this expression that people actually use here just to mean, like, I'm surprised.

Right.

Like, what?

But you've been there eight months now, right?

Yeah. And living here, go ahead. I'm sorry.

No, I was just going to ask, how are your Japanese has progressed? Like, how good was it before you came? And how's it been progressing? And how how has that been received, like, as you continuously improve?

I think, um, what's hilarious is that I once had I had someone approach me recently and said, "Andrew, um, I know that I told you that your Japanese was good, um, when I first met you. But I was actually lying.

Oh.

So, now.

Oh, wow.

But now, it's really good. So, Right. So, like, I'm actually telling you the truth now that, uh, that it's pretty good. Um,

That's funny.

I'd say, you develop a an appreciation for the social contexts of when to use, um, set phrases. Japan is really a culture of rituals and small, everyday customs. And, uh, it's so difficult to imagine them in the abstract from a book or, um, when you're learning Japanese in Norway or the US, it's very difficult to imagine, like, when do I actually use the word yoroshiku onegaishimasu?

Believe it or not, you can't. You can't. So, you use it when you first meet somebody, and you use it, um, right about when you're about to engage in some kind of new activity, um, with them in the workplace, like, um, like, at the start of a new year, you would definitely say, like, it's like, I'm turning a new page in my life, and I look forward to our relationship together.

Wow.

So, it's like, it's it's very deep. It's something it's very deep. And, um, I think that it's most literally translated as, please be kind to me.

Right.

But it sounds very that sounds very wooden in English.

That's not what it means at all.

It sounds like.

Yeah.

It's it's what it really means is, um, I'm looking forward to working with you, or, um, I'm looking forward to our life together. Like, even if it's not a romantic thing, but it's like, I'm looking forward to this conversation or this class, or this, um, this, uh, new journey that we're embarking upon.

Right.

And, uh, speaking of which, like, words like phrases like yoroshiku onegaishimasu, um, really highlight the fact that when you're learning Japanese, you'll encounter quite a few of these words that have no real good English equivalent. But are used in a very specific setting.

Oh, uh, you have to learn them, uh, somebody basically has to explain to you what they mean.

In a very long-winded paragraph. Okay, that makes sense.

Yes. Like, often times, the, um, like the Wiktionary.org website will have a little, um, descriptor of when to use a certain phrase.

Wow. Well, actually, that reminds me of a Danish phrase or maybe it exists in Norwegian as well, but in, uh, that is kind of untranslatable. Um, for in in Danish, if you leave work, but you still have colleagues there, or let's say you visit the shop that you work in, but you're not working, then instead of saying goodbye to the people there that you know, you might say, or you might you don't have to know them. Yeah, you can you can say when you leave, you can say, "God arbejdslyst," which means directly translated, good work lust. But obviously, lust in the, uh, sort of, uh, have a good interest in working or have a good desire to work. Um, which is, like, when you say it in English, you, like, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Because why would you have first of all, why would you have a good why would you have a desire to work, you know? You're you're in the shop, you want to just go home. Uh, and and and some people ask me, like, oh, is oh, is it some kind of sarcastic remark, right? No, it's not at all. It's it's completely the opposite. It's it's basically what you just explained in Japanese. Like, I sympa oh, that's a hard word. I am, uh, emphatic towards the idea that you're still here, uh, no, you know, I I I appreciate you're still working, and I'm sorry that I have to go now, or basically, or that I'm not working, you know? Uh, I'm sorry to leave you here in this predicament. Uh, which is not said at all in the phrase, but that's how it's used. Uh, so that's funny that this is kind of, uh, interrelated, uh, because that sounds exactly what you said, when the person leaves. Uh, but that doesn't exist in any other language as far as I know. And it's, uh, people, when I tell it to them, like I said, the first reaction was, oh, it's a sarcastic remark, like, you're still working. I yeah, enjoy your work, man.

Yeah, I've seen that. Believe me, yeah.

Yeah. But no, it's not at all. It's a very nice thing to say if you leave before your colleagues, or if you're visiting the shop where you work, or if you're a friendly with the cashier or whatever, you might say, you know, go arbaslut, have a good work desire. But, yeah, super untranslatable, but I guess it shows that the deeper meaning of language is not just a Japanese thing or or other language things. It it does exist in these sort of more, let's say, to us anyway, more common languages, the European languages as well. These very hidden meanings that are untranslatable. Like, people always talk about hygge as well, which doesn't really mean anything, but if you if you know what it is, then you know what it stands for, at least. You know, you can't really explain it. Um, and there are lots of examples of that, not just in in in Asian languages or or, let's say, very foreign languages.

Yes. There's a whole cottage industry of of books that promise to share the hidden untapped knowledge of a country that you think of, uh, as being a happy country. Yeah. Like, there's a.

Yeah. I've seen them. Trust me, yeah.

Yeah. As someone who's lived in Japan and Scandinavia, I've I've I've I've seen a couple of them, and they've they've definitely, uh, caught my eye.

I think it's just so sad, really. I I well, I I know.

Oh, definitely.

When you go into Foyle's here in England, like, the hygge book is very, very prominent and has been a bestseller for a long time. But it's, like, to me, it's stupid, because if you're explaining what it is, it kind of ruins it. You know, it's a bit like, I don't know, if you, yeah, explaining really advanced emotions or really good jokes. Like, if you have or magic. Like, if you explain how magic tricks are done, people are always going, like, oh, you know, they don't go, like, oh, that's really innovative and creative and exciting, and I'd never thought of it. They always go, like, oh, it was just like that. So, I think that's a similar thing to to something like hygge, which is, I mean, I'd love to have more hygge in in England, definitely. But I think they have their own versions, you know? They have afternoon tea. They have all kinds of stuff. But just because you don't have a word for it, doesn't mean you don't do it.

I think of it as cocktail party, like, romanticization of foreign cultures. Like, it's, uh, a way of saying, like, did you know that they have this really interesting word that no one else has, and it means that they have a new perspective on life, and they just go down the Sapir-Whorfian hypothesis all over again.

Yeah. And I think that it's a very lazy way of experiencing culture that's kind of popular. I think, like, the the ultimate way to experience a culture is to live in the culture. And, uh, meet friends, and sort of get to know people here, and, uh, like, reading a book about how, like, oh, the Japanese have this word that means, uh, like, ikigai, which is, like, the, um, reason for being, and, like, we would never have a word like reason for being, because that's a uniquely Japanese concept. That's, uh, that kind of thing, um, can be a little bit, uh, it feels a little bit, uh, plastic or fake.

I agree with that. Yeah. But I can teach you a word that definitely that you'll will impress Danish people. Yeah. Definitely. So, if you have hygge,

Yes.

If you say, "Hygge Hajsa,"

Hygge Hajsa, like, hot? No, that's German.

No, no, no. Like, uh, "hajsa." It's H Y J S A at the end. "Hygge Hajsa." So, it's like saying hygge and then "haj" afterwards. You know, hajsa.

Ah.

Um, if you say that in one word, it can mean, like, an event. So, um, are we going for some, like, on on Saturday, let's do something hygge hajsa or something. That's very, very slangy and very high-level. I don't know if you'll ever get a chance to use it, but, um, I have a Norwegian friend, and she's always she always looks at me so funny when I say these things.

Hygge Hajsa.

Yeah, hygge hajsa, and I'll say something, like, um, yeah, it's like, when you don't know what the actual thing is exactly, you can't describe it. So, you use this kind of, like, general word. Like, I would say something, like, um, yeah, you can say, "Kaffe Helosa." You know, it's like, it's like a coffee thing. It's like, in English, the closest I I think, would be thing. Like, let's do this, uh, cake thing or this, uh, biking thing or something. In in Danish, you have all these ways of saying that. My Norwegian friend is always confused, and she starts laughing when I do it, because it's it's it doesn't sound like anything. And it's definitely doesn't exist in Norwegian, as far as she can tell. So, it's quite funny, uh, that way. But but that I guess for a podcast here that kind of concerns itself with all languages of the world, really, and learning all languages of the world, it's fun to see that even some of these extremely specific concepts have parallels. Like, they might not be exactly the same, but you can definitely find remnants of that. Like, in for instance, you were saying that Japanese people would be perhaps overly positive towards your skills, even if you didn't have any. I found that was for sure. Like, I sent one message to Russian people, and they're like, oh my god, you're you're you're great at writing. How did you learn? You your Russian is so.

Yeah.

And I'm like, that was one sentence with like five words and three mistakes in it, you know?

Yes. Um, so I definitely see that elsewhere as well, which it's kind of good and bad, because you know you're crap. So, like, yeah, it's good that they're positive and it's it's better to be positive than negative. But it's almost too much. So, you start to question the whole thing. It's like, uh, how can I be perfect? I only know these five words.

You have to wait until somebody says that they were lying to you before when they said that you were good.

Exactly.

But now you're really good.

That's what you know. I I haven't quite reached that stage yet, unfortunately. But that's when you know. Um, but yeah, and I I really appreciate also the seems to be an immense depth to Japanese where you get a lot of of, uh, like, the better you get, the more you really understand the subtleties and the the kind of the cultural depth and and the meaning of some of these words and phrases. Whereas in the beginning, you also get a lot out of it because of the reactions and the way people are speaking as well. Um, so so I'm I'm sure people if they I I think it's a good time to have to start now. Like, we're we're recording this at the beginning of April, and the conference is at the end of October. So, you have quite a long time, actually. That's, uh, that's like half a year to get some progress done and and go to what it looks like in the pictures of a very beautiful place. I haven't been there in in Japan yet, but from the pictures that region looks absolutely stunning.

Yes. Kyushu is famous for, um, beautiful Buddhist temples. Uh, it's a very popular place to go. Uh, I I want to just fit in a couple of more remarks about learning Japanese, um, before the conversation ends.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Um, one of them would be, like, um, when you're learning these words at first, and, like, you're getting hit with all this vocabulary, uh, mnemonics are really your friend for how you learn nouns, verbs, adjectives, uh, because you're not going to have any connection whatsoever, um, to the.

Like, a picture representation or like a memorable phrase or or how would you do it?

Exactly. Like, a picture representation, a memorable phrase. Hopefully, as many different connections as you can make, um, because often times, there's like, um, there will be words that, like, uh, that will, like, trick you and be something, like, sound like something that they're actually not. Like, tamago sounds a lot like tomato, but it actually means egg.

It's too abstract or too arbitrary because you don't have any contact points. There's no like links to what you know already.

Exactly. And so it's a it's a necessary evil. Uh, you're going to need them. But later on, when you learn words that are more intermediate or or advanced, you can hook those intermediate or advanced words up to your beginning words. And you won't need the silly mnemonics anymore.

Right.

And it becomes just it it the neural networks start to form, and it really feels like, ah, I can leave that stuff behind.

Right. But but you have to start somewhere. That's the key.

Yeah.

Otherwise, it's just too too abstract, really.

Speaking of abstractness, um, I hate to eat up too much time. Uh, but, like, I would say that part of the Japanese culture and the Japanese language is the lack of directness is a very important quality. Okay.

Like, passive-aggressive in a way.

No, no, it's not aggressive at all, but it is certainly passive. It's not aggressive. It's just like it's it's passive suggestion. I don't think of it as being it's just the way that the language and the culture works. So, it's not it doesn't come with any of the baggage of, like, resentment and, um, like, it doesn't have any bad baggage the way that passive-aggressiveness often does.

Really?

Yes. It's it's that level of indirectness. And I think that, like,

Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Go ahead. I'm sorry. But I think that, like,

But did you not get, like, confused when you moved there with what people were saying?

I I first did, but then you get used to it. You get you get this, uh, the suggestions, they sort of push you along, like, um, like, pushing a bird out of a nest. Like, like, they just keep nudging you until you fall out of the nest. Like, this is the way this is the way that business is done here. Right.

Especially the more polite you are, the more, uh, indirect you are. Right. So, um, so even when you say, uh, like, he is he is my boyfriend in Japanese, you'll want to say, like, this in this direction over here is my boyfriend, or even this direction, there's a boyfriend in this direction. And so you're incredibly, incredibly vague. You say, like, Kouchira. Like, to say this person, in really polite Japanese, you say, in this direction. Right.

Yeah, I can imagine.

And, um, just to switch gears really fast, this is a bit of a non sequitur. But you learn one of the sort of interesting quirks about Japanese is that you'll learn there are many onomatopoeia. And, um, and you can there's way more onomatopoeia in Japanese than in English. And they're used way more often.

What's that sound like? What they are, basically.

Yes, exactly. Um, words, um, like in English, we say the word crunch or snap or, um, crackle. And those words sound like what they are. But in Japanese, it's always four syllables, and, like, it's usually it can be used as a noun or a verb or an adjective or an adverb. And it's used in really kind of creative flowy ways that I think are very similar to Korean.

Oh, really?

Like, rolling around like a boulder.

That's interesting.

And so that's just a wonderful, like, little snippet of what kind of onomatopoeia there are, and there are hundreds of them. So, every time you learn a Japanese onomatopoeia, you're learning, like, a little snippet of of this one aspect of Japanese life.

Yeah, and it sounds quite flexible as well if you can use it in many different contexts.

Absolutely. Definitely. Like, I wouldn't use it in, like, a speech unless you, like, one to be really, really, uh, creative. Right.

I can imagine. Like, you don't want to sound like an anime when you walk around in Tokyo.

Uh, that's definitely the case. I've I've heard from a previous teacher that, um, that there was a ex-student that she had who addressed her as Omae, which is, like, the second-person pronoun, uh, that you want to sound that sounds very rude, rough, and vulgar. Uh, and, um, she was very kind of, uh, I don't think she took offense at it, but it's definitely not something that, uh, you want to throw around to people, uh, you want to be polite to.

Right. I can imagine. Uh, you want to get that right. But like you said earlier, you'll get that balance later. As long as you, you know, have a varied learning materials and not just learn from the the anime, then you should have a good starting point, and then eventually, you'll learn the finer details, I guess, that if you do have a teacher, I guess, you need to be slightly more polite than if you're talking to a friend, just in general.

Yes. Uh, but it's more it's way, way more complicated than just using one pronoun versus another. Uh, it's not like French where, like, basically you change one pronoun and one verb form, and then you're you're good to go. Right. It's way it's way more intricate than that.

Mhm. Well, that's good to that's good to know. It's good to, uh, encourage people and not to scare them off too much, because I know that some people probably have heard stories of Japanese or they have heard, like, the myths of or or how it works, and they get kind of scared away, similar to how the Chinese characters scare people from learning Chinese. Um, so it's good that it's not that bad. You know, you don't have to to learn 2,000 characters necessarily to to get started in Japanese and not be, uh, be completely, uh, what you would say, admonished for using the wrong, uh, terms or words or phrases.

People are very forgiving here. I'd say, uh, and they're they're just incredibly kind. Um, I would say, uh, yeah, you're basically describing the plot of Lost in Translation.

Oh, yeah. I've seen that. Yeah. I've seen that. Yeah. Which is funny.

Yeah, go on. I'm sorry.

Did you, uh, because I saw it on, uh, Amazon, and they have, uh, a little, like, did you know during the film, which is actually really interesting. But there was, uh, there was a little snippet where some of the translations for the film title actually were lost in translation. Because, uh, like, for instance, uh, let's say Lost in Translation, some some country translated to Lost in Japan. Which doesn't which doesn't make any sense whatsoever compared to the story. Uh, definitely not compared to the original title. Um, so I I find that really funny that the title of the the film, Lost in Translation, was actually lost in translation.

That is the most meta thing I've heard in a while.

Yeah. I I well, I I don't know it's not the best film I've ever seen, but it's definitely definitely makes you think about that because in the in the language community, a lot of people are quite they like to travel, and they like to stay in places longer than, uh, let's say, tourists. And sometimes there's this, uh, attraction to where you're not. So, let's say I was learning Japanese now here in in England. I'd be attracted to going to Tokyo, but without a proper social network or job, or some kind of context, I would probably be a lot like the two main characters in that film, kind of just lost, you know? And I've been lost before in Budapest and other places, and sometimes I I wonder if if more if more, uh, context on on that those kind of stories would be useful as well, because it's not easy, definitely, to go abroad, but but you've you've settled in there nicely in in Tokyo with, but maybe did it probably helped you to have that kind of connection with the JET Program and like a fixed job and like that kind of forced social aspect. Or were there any challenges in regards to that that you just want to mention here at the end?

Uh, I'd say the JET Program did a masterful job of, um, of welcoming me. Uh, I feel like I'm very fortunate. I live in a in a pretty typical suburb of Tokyo. So, I feel like I can get I can get nature when I when I need it, and, um, and the city life when I want it. And I feel very fortunate in that respect.

Yeah. And I think that you made a good point there that for a language podcast, makes a lot of sense that if you are planning to travel anywhere for, let's say, less than a or more than a holiday, if you want to, let's say, you want to go stay in Thailand for a month or more, um, then it's good it's really valuable to learn some of the language before you go. So you can, you know, get involved. When I moved to Budapest, I didn't know I was going to be in Hungary at all. So, I didn't have a chance to learn before, and I saw the I saw the negative aspects of, like, being kind of lost again in in a foreign country. Of course, people speak English to a certain degree and stuff, but I think the way to really connect with locals is is by the language. Even if you can communicate in English, and that might be a a good fallback. But, you know, that's not the case for every language, every country, you know? There might be, like you say, in in rural Japan, there might be or rural Tokyo, there might be problems with with the English ability. So, if you don't have any Japanese before you go, you could just can't get involved. And I think that makes it twice as hard, if not 10 times as hard, if you can't communicate. Uh, you'll feel extremely isolated very quickly, I would say.

Yes. And the average age in Japan is higher than maybe any other country. And, uh, so the average person that you'll meet on the street, um, likely took English lessons very many years ago and hasn't had hasn't had the opportunity to sort of, uh, brush up.

Hmm. Yeah, that's that's cool. That's cool. Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with the other country's approach either. They're just different.

Oh, but it's more it's way, way more complicated than just using one pronoun versus another. Right. Uh, it's not like French where, like, basically you change one pronoun and one verb form, and then you're you're good to go. Right. It's way it's way more intricate than that.

Mhm. Well, that's good to know. It's good to, uh, encourage people and not to scare them off too much, because I know that some people probably have heard stories of Japanese, or they have heard, like, the myths of or or how it works, and they get kind of scared away, similar to how the Chinese characters scare people from learning Chinese. Um, so it's good that it's not that bad. You know, you don't have to to learn 2,000 characters necessarily to to get started in Japanese and not be, uh, be completely, uh, what you would say, admonished for using the wrong, uh, terms or words or phrases.

People are very forgiving here. And I'd say, uh, and they're they're just incredibly kind. Um, I would say, uh, maybe I don't know. I I can't really see a downside to it yet, but maybe if I live here longer, I think individuality often may be struggles here.

Cool. Well, I'm maybe in a few years time, we'll get a an update, like the, uh, the part three, and then, uh, we'll hear how how it's going, and, uh, obviously, meet you in in October to see see this, uh, wonderful country that you're speaking of.

All right. I'm Chris, it's been my pleasure.

All right. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Actual Fluency Podcast. I really appreciate having you here today. Just before you leave, I just want to give a quick shout out to today's sponsor, which is iTalki. iTalki is a tutoring platform where you can find affordable tutors for every language in the world, pretty much. So get started today and get a free $10 credit when you book your first lesson. If you go to actualfluency.com/italki, that's spelled I T A L K I. So give it a go and feel how tutoring can really boost and enhance your language learning.