Kerstin Hammes: How to become a (better) teacher

Actual fluency podcast episode 32 with Kirsten Hammers. Welcome to the actual fluency podcast. The podcast that gives you the tools and inspiration to learn languages faster and more efficiently. And now your host, Kris Broholm.

Hey Kris, how are you doing?

I'm I'm great, how are you doing?

I'm fine this morning. I'm feeling productive now. You know, now that I've got a podcast to be on, fantastic.

Yeah, it's good for motivation.

Yeah, yeah, I was just going to play Spider-Man all morning but now I've got you. It's brilliant.

Yeah, hopefully, uh hopefully we can get some good stuff out of you today, some good, uh tips and tricks for people to improve their lives, so to speak.

Oh, let's give it a go.

I I just gave people a a quick introduction before I called you, but maybe you just want to take a second to introduce yourself, particularly with respect to languages, how did you get into it and where you are now?

Okay. Um, well, my name's Kirsten Hammers. I am originally from Germany and I lived there until I was 20 and then I moved to England. And I now have two websites on the internet and the first one is fluentlanguage.co.uk. That's my blog where I also run a little podcast called the Creative Language Learning Podcast and write sort of thoughtful, helpful article on language learning. And I also have kirstenhammers.com, which is where I'm working on becoming a business coach for online teachers and anybody who wants to make money and attract people on the internet.

Fantastic. That I mean that's just incredible that you by the time you finished school, you'd already had such a a thorough introduction to languages.

Yes, it is. Um, I mean like Italian wasn't compulsory. Two two foreign languages were compulsory in my school. We could take English at age 10, um, which everybody had to do. And then because in the German school system I was in a gymnasium and that's the the one school type that prepares you for university so it's the academic school type. Um, because we have a kind of, I was going to say segregated but that's not the word, is it? Like a separated system of secondary schools, no comprehensive schools really.

Yeah, did you did you find that you could use it for the other languages that's that's what many people tell me?

Yes, it's it's an extremely fantastic basis for any European language that you're going to learn, particularly Italian and Spanish, but French as well, and it just when we started learning Latin, the first two weeks of my Latin lessons weren't any Latin. None, you didn't even learn like servus, nothing. Um, because we just did German grammar.

Yeah, it's still very popular in in Germany I believe, so so maybe that's why because the language the German language itself is is much like the the Latin.

Um, in a in a way, yes, I mean, our our basic structure, the way that sentences are organized, so you have like, I mean, in French you have this thing called direct object and indirect object, but they don't really change very much whereas in German you've got these cases, which means, um, suddenly you have to put different letters at the end of the word depending on what job the word is doing in a sentence. Yeah.

Right, yeah, and that that makes German very flexible. You can put the object at the beginning, or you can put the subject at the beginning and it's it it's just the ending that defines it, just like Latin, you know, the the endings you can make with three different words put them in different places and you can get the same meaning.

Yes, English has a very rigid word order.

Yeah, Danish as well.

Ah, you know,

Yeah, we have to do it in we don't have endings or cases or anything so we have to put it in the in the right order otherwise it doesn't make sense.

It makes for both in Latin and in German it makes for fantastic poetry. Because, you know, poetry is playing with language and putting things in different orders is part of this sort of playing. Um, and I think German poems really take advantage of that. As do, you know, Latin, the the little Latin poetry that we did in Latin was really exciting. Because you've, you know, it's based on rhythm as well.

Right.

So it it really shows how you know, how language sort of transcends and starts becoming about the melody and the art and the, you know, the beautiful things that you can do with it and Latin was surprisingly, um, rich in that sense for me.

Yeah, it's very it's very creative. Because you have that freedom of positions.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

What specifically did did you take from it for for Spanish and Italian? Um, like you said, it was specifically helpful for those or particularly helpful for those languages. Can you can you get into any specifics on that?

It's really similar in terms of vocabulary divergence. So once you've done kind of Latin words, to be honest, once you're learning Latin, you realize that, um, probably I mean, I wouldn't like to put a number on it, but it feels like more than half of the words, sort of 50% of the words are words that you already know because you know them from somewhere in English, you know them from somewhere in Spanish, and then, um, I did Spanish after I did Latin and Italian and Spanish to me just felt like the easiest language in the world because it was just because a lot of the vocabulary, you could just take either an English word or a or a Latin French word, um, and just sort of say fair at the end. And at least somebody would know what you mean.

Right. That's fantastic. It's kind of like Esperanto where all the words are just from French or Russian, Italian, Spanish, all all around the and I don't suppose Latin roots as well. Make it incredibly easy to learn and and use but I don't know about the the you know, whether we should learn if if you don't know Latin or Esperanto, I don't know which you should learn right now at at this time of of the world.

That's true. Yeah. I think it's an interesting question that the the way you're phrasing it, uh which language should I learn. Yeah. You know. There is no should, just pick one. It doesn't it doesn't matter. It it really doesn't matter.

Well, I'll put another I'll put another question to you then with that regard. If we ignore everyone else and if you have this idea about you you listen to a language, I don't know, maybe you turn on the Icelandic news channel or something and you're like, oh my god, this language sounds amazing, I want to learn it. But you don't have any relation to Iceland. You don't know anyone, you don't know anything about it and you don't have any sort of special motivation. Should I then just do it or do you think that there's a there should be some element of practicality or I guess that's is that right brain, the non-creative one, should that have a say in it as well?

Difficult to imagine. Um,

You never heard a language where you like, oh my god, it sounds so nice and you just fall in love with the.

But at that point you do have a relationship with it. So it did I mean, in your question you say, well, you've got no relationship with the country or anything. Um Icelandic in particular to me is I I have always been a big fan of Sigur Rós. Um, a big band from Iceland. And I've been to see them live, you know, many, many times. So, um, even though I don't know them and they probably wouldn't talk to me if I ring them up. Um, it it instantly I have a relation to Iceland and I have some lyrics that I can listen to.

It's hard to find.

Right.

Right, yeah. I I I I I didn't expect, you know, kind of a a a definite answer to the dilemma because it's a very subjective of course as well. Um, but it's just a very interesting topic because, you know, in in one camp a lot of people are saying, yeah, just follow your passion and you'll have a lot more motivation for learning a language.

Yes, I I understand what you I understand what you're saying. I've never even thought about it in that way. Like when I started learning Spanish, I didn't really ever think, oh, I'm going to move to Spain or or, I mean, now I don't really use my Spanish very much. I don't really follow the Spanish news and even if I did, um, it wouldn't be that different because it's, you know, to the European news.

Right. Right. But I I mean I I I I see what you mean with Spanish, you're not using it, but then again, you know, Spanish like the what top 10 spoken language in the world or something, you know, you can probably find find uses for.

And still I don't use it, you know what I mean? Still I don't use it. Well, I could instantly just see myself, you know, that's

And popping over and uh.

That's a four hour drive and I can probably find somebody.

Right. Yeah, it's very.

It was very disappointing being in Wales and a you know, I mean okay we were in a holiday camp. But um it was very disappointing sort of saying "Diolch yn fawr" to the barmaid, which means thank you, which I've probably said terribly. And I'm like, so excited. I've just said something in Welsh and she just goes, "Yes, Steve over there, is the only one of us who speaks Welsh."

I do love the Welsh English accent though, I have to say.

Oh, it's gorgeous.

It's one of my favorites.

Yeah. And also I I mean, I don't just learn a language in order to um, speak to people. I think it's also about, um, stepping into the I mean, culture is a is a very wide, wide, overused word, but it's also about making a connection with the place and I guess culture.

Mm. Yeah.

So Arabic is one of those languages where really I don't I mean, I don't feel a big pull to Arabic as such, but when I start thinking, oh my god, the Quran and think of all this history and these rich, amazing places and you sort of it'll open them up for me. It'll it'll give me a chance to connect with all of that. That's what excites me.

Yeah, and if if if more people would learn more languages, we would have more tolerance in the world as well. Because you're getting a deeper understanding for for the cultures just as you say.

100%.

It's very easy to only, let's say for for Arabic, it's it's very very normal for I suppose people not interested in other cultures and languages to just assume they're all terrorists, you know, which is of course couldn't be anything further from the truth. But, you know, once you get to learn languages, you really embrace that, oh wow, they're actually, I mean, Luka Lalo said, you know, learning a language is like living a second life at the same time. So you're like I I just thought that was beautiful beautifully put.

Yes. And xenophobia is, you know, at the core of that word is the is the word phobia, it's a fear. You know, xenophobia is the fear of the foreign. With me having never learned Greek, I hope that's right. But it's you know, what you don't know intimidates you. So

Ignorance.

But for me, what I don't know kind of also incites a curiosity. Um, and especially with languages, it just it's a real step in. It's it's everybody starts inviting you in once, you know, and you people don't realize how little of a language you actually have to know in order to open that door just a little sort of, you know, a tiny, tiny step. You only really have to say a few things and you'll get a smile on somebody's face and that's all you need to to start.

It's yeah, you're right and and just the networking as well because, you know, I was when I was speaking Russian and a little bit on Facebook and stuff, uh a friend of mine just said, you know what, if you ever ever in Russia, you can just stay with us. No problem, you know. And I could at that time I could probably say hi and thank you pretty much, you know, so it really opens doors that, you know, you can't really explain until you see them and that's just the like, I'm talking about a real door opening, but there's also something about your own personal development. You you're you're kind of evolving as a as a person, aren't you?

Yeah, that's why I like teaching and working with adults because it's somebody who has consciously made that choice to develop themselves. And I I just love I I want people to stop thinking of languages as a burden. I mean, but, you know, in school I used to think of maths as a burden and as it turns out, you actually need maths in life. Um,

Yeah, let's not stretch it too far, but I see your point.

You know. So it's, you know, it's it's it's it's it might not be for everybody but the more I think we can the more I think we can make people aware of the incredible, you know, personal riches that you gain, even when you can't go around the world and speak to people, that that it still gives you all this amazing personal development and more than you could ever buy with money. I think that's that's a great mission to have.

Yeah. Experience, not uh things, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, you're right.

You went you went into teaching there and I thought that was a great segue for the, uh, I wanted to talk about your teaching career, so to speak. Um, because, you know, I was looking into teaching as well when I was in in university. Been there for two years now and when I started, I didn't have a job or anything. So I thought, you know, why don't I just go and teach languages online? Teach Danish, you know, I I know it quite well. And, um, I was looking at Italki.

Oh, thank you.

No.

Oh.

No problem. Yeah, because um it was just, you know, it was just really, really well made and and well written as well, you know, both of those kind of go together but um I found your two your teaching packages and I was like, what she's charging XX, I don't know even what but if I say five times what I was charging then, you know, that's probably pretty accurate.

Yeah. Where do I start?

I don't know. I I don't know if there's a question there. I don't know if there's a question there, but it's definitely an introduction to your teaching.

It is a very, very familiar story that I hear from many, uh people who are online teachers. And, um, when I started teaching online, um, first of all, I think I think there is a difference between people who kind of want to teach a language part-time to get a little bit of, you know, what what could be considered maybe beer money. Um, and there are a lot of sort of, uh, you know, students at every university, you just do a few lessons, a few language exchanges and teach their own language. And that is that is amazing. And and you know, you you have to you have to sort of price partly based on your own needs.

Right.

Yes, you can. Um, but I think for a language learner who also places an emphasis on, you know, building a long-term relationship and thinking about your teacher's personality. I look for teachers, um, who who A are in it for the long haul because I think, you know, in order to make this into a sustainable actual living, you've got to, you've got to be in it in the long haul and if somebody hasn't done it for years, that that did not as good. Um, and secondly, I think pricing should be the secondary consideration. First of all, you should think about, okay, what can this person do for me?

Right.

So to a language learner, I I would say, you know, look around and, you know, find somebody who, you know, you can tell has dedicated themselves to teaching who to put themselves into this and to, you know, making sure you were, you know, who doesn't just have a Tefl and has taught, you know, groups before, doesn't mean they're bad, but just means they're not as committed to the whole adventure.

Right.

So, for example, a lot of online teachers can develop themselves and can develop really, really useful materials that help people pass an exam that they're aiming for. Others might want to focus on the specific area of, uh, finding a flat if you're working with a lot of people who work who want to become expats. You know, so rental agreements and contracts and the specific, not just vocabulary around that area, but all the things that you have to do that you need help with can be packaged together and put together.

Yeah, I talkie is it's like Italki as good as it is for language learners, it's really kind of making the teaching market all about how low can the price be and and, you know, if you pay very little for something, most of the time that's what you're going to get as well, isn't it?

Um. And it's not the only way, if you're a teacher that's by far not the only way to find a student.

But but give me give me some.

I've been on Italki a bit, but.

Give me some give me some tips. I know you you you uh you put this in the in the program but um if if you were to if you were a teacher and you say I feel like my my sort of my efforts of my work is worth more than let's say $10 an hour. That's probably a standard Italki rate. Um but if you feel like I should get let's say $20 an hour.

I think a lot of it is to do with building a reputation for yourself. So sharing more information for example on your blog, um, and yeah, have a blog. Have a.

Just not one.

Yeah, have a, you know, have a have a platform for yourself. Have for example, build a blog, think about, um, a few of the factors that I think we should really think about is not just what makes you a good teacher, so there are external factors such as qualifications and maybe you want you've won an award and also your testimonials, but there are also internal factors of what makes you a great student such as the value and commitment that you place on your work, your own personality and your people skills. And people skills translate into great testimonials.

Right.

I just get it. And I want to help them so, so much. And this this makes me in that sense by nature of things, a better teacher for an adult. I'm better with adults than I am with kids. Um, so that's one thing that I'm I automatically aim myself at and then I'm thinking, okay, what kind of questions do these people ask? How can I help them with more information? And where are they online? So this is a case of and like I said, I mean, you're right in the course that's hopefully uh a lot of the useful stuff that we're going to work through sort of this idea of thinking about what do these people need exactly?

Right.

So then again, the kind of people I work with are usually not expats, so they don't have a lot of German around them. Um, but they're just really fascinated either by language learning and they love this personal challenge to themselves. So that gives me a very specific way of speaking about language learning and a very specific way of, um, blogging and assessing the problems that people have. Um, rather than just going, oh, you know, here are here are five best airlines for flying to Germany or something like that. It just makes it all a little bit more specific. Um, and that means when somebody comes to you or when you when somebody becomes aware of you, um, which, you know, again is is a little bit of that online marketing thing but again, it's not as scary as it sounds. Um, because it is just about starting conversations with people being what I the way I look at it is you have to be visible, then you have to be seen, then you have to be liked, and then people have to get in touch and then you might get booked.

And you had a you had a very good, um, I wouldn't call it a trick, but you had a very nice, uh little uh tip was that you instead of just having, you know, a buy lesson or buy package button, you had a um get in touch or something so you could have a little Skype call maybe 15 minutes to talk to the potential client about, you know, what do you need and then providing exactly what the person wants to hear. So you've or maybe you figure out, okay, so this guy isn't for me or, you know, finding that perfect relationship instead of just kind of accepting everyone, right?

Exactly, exactly. And, um, what it what it means what it means for you is you get more dedicated students, um, because they know you're going to provide what they're into. And what it means for them is that you they're going to have a teacher who's really focused on the same goal as they're focused on.

Right.

And it helps the learner get exactly what they want. So this is this is the idea of, you know, to think of a consultation not as oh, here's a trial lesson, but as a teacher, but instead really think of it as almost an assessment of where your student is. You have to be very focused, you have to make notes and then, you know, when you get back in touch with them, make sure you write down what what they told you pretty much so that, you know, to to make sure you understood them right.

Right.

Because otherwise and then the offer that you can make somebody is ever so much stronger.

Yeah, of course because it's it's perfectly tailored to their needs.

Um, and then that I mean the other thing about price is just something I just want to say on the side is, um, when you are trading just on price and you're undercutting, um, not only do you potentially devalue yourself and your service, which you particularly when we're in a global market, um, that is it's very easily done. Um, but secondly, you are signaling to your student that they don't need to dedicate themselves as much as maybe they have to. So it's also a case of, you know, if I'm not saying just jack up the number to a crazy high, you know, a $1,000 an hour, um, I mean I'd like that.

Right.

But, um, the point is, um, if the person that if the person that books you respects the amount of money that they're giving you, they respect the lesson.

Yeah, that's a that's a good uh top tip.

Hopefully, yes. So, um, that's that's kind of, uh my my mission with the Compass course that I've got, which I am by the way recruiting, uh, beta testers for at the moment. Or, I mean beta, whatever, alpha. It just test, testers please. Um, and I've got about two places left. So if if anybody's really keen on this, um, and you're hearing this, um, when does this podcast come out?

It's on the 17th.

17th of October. Absolutely perfect. So you've got a little bit of time, um, to apply to be a tester and there'll be the two main aspects is you get it at a reduced price. Um, flying in the face of all I've just said. Um, but yeah, you you can participate in a course at a reduced price, but I will expect you to give me more feedback than you've ever given anybody else. Um, and secondly, it'll be I don't preset the pace of the course as much because I want to make sure the materials are right for the duration that we're aiming for.

Right.

Yeah, and that would be people can get in touch with me by, um, and I have to spell my name because it's funny spelling. Um, you can email, Kirsten that's k e r s t i n at fluentlanguage.co.uk.

Great. Then they get in touch with you and you can uh explain them how the application process works.

Yes, that would be amazing.

Fantastic. And I just wanna throw in a last testimonial because uh we love that. And the, you know, I I recently had a talk with you on for your 50 calls project. And you were kind of just bouncing ideas around and you you shared some of the tips and tricks I suppose you could say with with uh teaching.

Oh, that's amazing. I'm so pleased for you.

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah.

Well done.

That's fantastic because then I get the the double advantage of having a package is that you're paid up front, so you have the motivation to provide the best service in the world. And you get a a lot of hours to kind of structure the syllabus, which I almost want to call it, to for that student.

Wow.

It was really, really hard. So, you know, it's going to be really exciting.

Well, so I can't pass it by just shouting for help.

No, I don't think that will do it. But but it's very exciting for me as a as a teacher because the teaching before when you just booked for one lesson is like, oh, let's just talk a little bit and maybe randomly get into some discussion about what what their problem is.

Absolutely, absolutely. And um and it's just, you know, the way that congratulations first of all, it's it's really, really good and this is the thing you've got a guy because even because you know, he's planning to take this exam. You're just ever more dedicated. You know, and he knows you're in, right? So the fact that he knows you're in it it it adds value to what you're doing and you really are, you know, you're in this. You're dedicated.

Oh, that's amazing. I'm so pleased for you. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

And fantastic. I'm glad I'm glad to hear it. Yeah, and I I would really like to like if I could choose, I would get, you know, one more of his type and just do that as kind of a a sidekick. But not not anymore. No more. I don't want to fill up my entire free time with like you said earlier, you know, it's not about filling up your schedule.

Yeah, yeah, definitely and um when I was talking to people in developing the course, one of the big things that people brought up is a desire for independence and that is that is partly why I'm doing this because when I first started, I consciously I don't even have like a Tefl qualification or anything like that. Um, I consciously didn't do any of that because I wanted to do things my way. I wanted to be completely in charge of every aspect of what I do, which is why I never talked with a school, which is why I built up my business as it was.

Right.

So, you know, and and that that's great because they're happy, I'm happy and this is a way that we can move forward.

Right. And it's.

I'm not I'm not a slave to, you know, I'm not a slave to Italki or a school etcetera and it's it's like you say, it's that's not what I want for an online teacher and that's certainly not um, yeah, if you if you take compass, it's because you want to build an independent business and you're kind of planning for your future. Um, and independence including location independence comes into it.

Which is awesome. I mean, imagine living in in, you know, in a nice warm country, you know, sitting by the pool and you know, planning lessons for for people halfway around the world.

Yeah, yeah and I mean, I've taught from on the road. It's it's allowed me to, um, you know, like earlier this year I traveled the US for three weeks and I taught from California and then I taught from Indiana and for my students it was, you know, it was it was the same quality of lesson. That's what you want.

Yeah exactly because it's it's just Skype or whatever program you use and uh as long as you have a stable internet connection, you you can you can provide the same value as if you're home in your office.

Exactly, exactly.