Olly Richards from IWillTeachYouALanguage.com

On this episode of the actual fluency podcast, I'm joined by the man behind I will teach your language.com, Olly Richards. Olly and I talk about language learning and we go into specific details about Chinese and Japanese. Welcome to the actual fluency podcast. The podcast that gives you the tools and inspiration to learn languages faster and more efficiently. And now your host, Chris Broholm.

Hey Kris. Thanks very much. Very pleased to be here.

Fantastic. And Olly, I've given the listeners a a brief introduction of yourself, but maybe you just want to take a minute so they can get to know you a little bit better on how you got started with all this language learning?

Yeah, sure. Okay. Well, um I guess the first thing to say is that uh I really started um well, the first time I learned any languages was at school. I did uh French and German for a couple of years at uh secondary school. Um high school for those that are used in the in the in the States. And uh I was, you know, pretty pretty average student. I learned a few bits and pieces but you know, you you come out of school and you can't really speak much. So you know, I got to I was a sort of 18, 19 and uh I didn't have any languages, any language skills to speak of.

Snowball off that initial success.

Yeah, exactly.

But but did you at the time when you were working in the cafe and you and you spoke basically only one language, did did you consider it almost impossible the idea of learning a new language or or or had you had any exposure to the you know, the polyglot world or, you know, anyone who would be multilingual enough for you to see it as a realistic opportunity?

Well, the thing is that when you I mean, I I didn't well, your first well, your first point was about did I think it was impossible? And no, I didn't. Um, I I always I've always had a sort of can do attitude to stuff. I think and I I I don't think anything is impossible. I've never never really have. That's not to say that I knew how to do it or how to go about it. But I but I knew that I would be able to if I set my mind to it.

So it was your exposure to to the foreign cultures that kind of uh, inspired you. And the reason I I say this is of course because I I think a lot of people around the world um, who might be new to learning languages might see it as a very, very difficult task. And that isn't to say that it's easy, but by no means of the imagination. But it's very hard to begin learning a language if you believe that it's impossible. Wouldn't you say so?

Well, yeah, I mean, but I think in that sense, you can apply that to to anything, you know, whether you want to build a business or whether you want to learn a language or become a become an athlete, you know, it all start it all starts from the mindset. You've got to believe it's possible and you have to you have to have the desire to do it.

So which one did you uh, did you start out with? Was that French or?

Yeah, it was French. I um, well, I mean, when I was I was working in that cafe only for a couple of months and I sort of I dabbled in a bit of French and a bit of Italian but not not really seriously. I didn't really know what I was doing.

Yeah.

Um, 15 years later, you know, but I um, I did at the time. I guess I I guess, you know, when when you're when you're that age, you just don't really care that much, do you? So. But again, I think that it just it does show that I was I really wanted it, you know.

Right. You didn't go to to Paris, which is obviously a big tourist location and just found yourself in kind of an English bubble or something. You actually threw yourself in a place, like in a in a reception desk where lots of lots of French people came through. So you?

Yeah, well, I did have a I did have something of an of an English bubble. I mean, I actually I was actually staying staying in a youth hostel at the time. So I was surrounded by by tourists actually.

Right.

French life, you know.

But but it was, you know, I I don't know if you want to make any uh general conclusions about immersion but but what do you think about, you know, living abroad compared to studying a language from home? I know you've done both. What are the what do you think is it is it as good as as one would expect or or can you sort of mimic the experience at home as well and and achieve good results there too?

Well, I mean, if if the question is can you achieve good results at home without living without being immersed in the culture, then absolutely.

How important is it, I guess, is the is the is the big question. How important is it to be in the country when you're learning a language?

Well, it's an interesting question because I think most people probably don't have a choice. You know, asking that question a way, in a way is like saying you know, for people who who who do live at home and don't live abroad, um, you know, it it's kind of a of a of a non-starter really because most people can't just pick up and and move. move abroad. I mean, so it's it's absolutely not necessary.

Right.

in two weeks. You've got to put in all the work. Right. And and if you do what most what a lot of people do and fall into a kind of expat bubble, in a way, that's much harder because you can you you can start to get frustrated. A lot of people in Japan, for example, where I was for a few years, um, find themselves in an expat bubble and then and it's difficult to break out. And then so you know, they they build this they see Japanese people and uh, and the the prospect of talking with Japanese people and practicing their Japanese, it starts to become this massive thing in their head and

Right.

and it just becomes something that can be quite difficult to to get over. So I mean, if you, but then again, if you do live in the country and you've got some good study habits and you've and you are actively trying to learn the language, then of course you do have extra benefits. I mean, you're surrounded by the language every day. You've got more people to practice with. Uh, you know, it's real interaction with people as opposed to, I don't know, learning on on on Skype or something.

Right.

So, there are differences and but it that is really important, I think that that's not used as an excuse not to get started. That's the most important thing.

Yeah, it was a bit of a leading question I guess in in that I I think that when you're learning a language from home, you know, you can get very far and because you're you kind of dedicated to learning the language and you you you take on the task, it's it's a lot different mentality than being in the country and you're kind of like, oh, well, I'm here and I'm listening to the language. So I must be learning it, right? You know, a good learner at home probably gets infinitely more done than a bad learner in the country.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And I've seen I've seen cases of both happening. Uh, and I've been guilty of that myself, you know, when I went to Japan, uh, for the first time, I was um, well, I've only been once, but when I went to actually live there, I didn't do much in the first year, you know. Right.

Right. And uh, obviously, you know, you've learned a a lot of great languages, but for me, the the two that kind of stand out a little bit are the Japanese and the the Cantonese. Uh, what drew you to these uh, these Asian languages?

Uh, well, in in Japan, it was purely because I was living there. Right. So I wanted to learn it.

So you went to Japan before you started learning the language?

Yeah, I I didn't know any Japanese. Right. I mean, I think I'd learned to I'd learned to write, I'd learned the hiragana alphabet and uh, I tried to learn katakana but it wouldn't really stick because they're fairly similar. Um, but essentially not I didn't I knew knew nothing. And um, and I mean I did want to go to Japan and I and I very I was really uh, into Japanese culture. Um, you know, and I was the prospect of going to Japan was was cool. I was excited by it. So that obviously helped.

What kind of difficulties did you find when learning Cantonese? How fa how how long have you been learning it for now?

Uh, less than a year. Probably about uh, getting on for nine months now. Eight, nine months.

I saw you.

And it hasn't been it hasn't been intensive at all. I've been uh, doing it fairly I've been trying to keep it consistent but not really uh, I haven't been going at it full on.

Right. That's the important bit, isn't it, anyway? I I mean, that's my personal opinion is that it's better to do something every day for a small amount of time than, you know, doing something sporadically once a week or something for a longer amount of time.

Yeah, and uh, because it's it's more I mean, Cantonese for me has been more of a more of a hobby than than other languages. So I don't I'm not in any great rush to No. learn it. So I'm sort of happy to um, happy to just kind of enjoy the process. Whereas with Japanese, I mean, because I was in Japan, I was, you know, I had that that incentive to to get off my ass and actually do the work, you know. I don't have

More intensive.

Yeah. I don't have that now but it's it's it's more enjoyable in a way because I can just enjoy the enjoy the process and uh,

Yeah.

enjoy spending time with the language.

Yeah, I saw your I saw some of your uh, status update videos for for fun. I I I looked at the, you know, the month one and then I looked at month two and three and four. And it seemed like you you made quite rapid progress there. You you had some conversations and I mean, yeah, you had some, you know, pauses here and there and stumbles but do you feel that your experience from learning all the other languages is kind of speeding up the process at this point even at such a difficult language as Cantonese?

Um, yeah. I don't I mean, honestly, it's difficult to say. I I don't think that the uh, the language itself is made any easier by the other languages I've learned because um, Cantonese is is like no other language I've ever at all. It's I mean, I I I Japanese has some bearing on it. Um, in that I know some of the Chinese characters. But it's very different. So I've really been starting from from scratch with the language.

Right.

So, when I was trying to speak and it was really hard, it didn't bother me that much. When I was trying to learn this new vocabulary and there was just so much to learn and I didn't know how I was going to learn it. I didn't get too frustrated because I knew that's the process that you've got to go through.

Right.

Um, and so that in that sense it was it was more manageable.

That was the experience of the previous languages, not so much the actual languages, it's more the process that helped you uh for Cantonese.

Yeah, because I mean I I don't really believe that any, I don't know, it depends where you where you're coming from and what your mother tongue is, but I don't think that objectively there is much difference. I mean when people when people say, you know, this language is harder than that or that language is harder than the other, I it's, you know, it's a false dichotomy really because all right, Cantonese may be harder than uh, than French for an English speaker.

That's that's good. And if you if you have any, do you have any specific advice for people who are looking to learn well, let's say Cantonese first but also Japanese uh coming back to that before they start?

Um, there's a lot it sort of depends what what aspect you want to focus on. But I mean, I think the thing is really, you've got to expect it to take time.

Right.

I mean, don't don't go in there thinking, um, I'm going to, you know, I've got to be fluent in three months or six months or whatever. It's not going to happen. Right. Um, you So just the realization that it's going to take time. Right. Right straight away, that relieves the pressure a little bit. You know, you can afford to make mistakes. You can afford not to be perfect. You can afford not to not to um, you know, remember all this vocabulary from the start.

Right.

be prepared to uh, for it to take time.

Excellent. And and I mean, I I haven't had any experience with with Asian languages. So, so you can help me out here as well, but what is your um, general wisdom when talking about the scripts? Because I've heard a lot of people recommend that you learn the oral language first before you start looking at the at the characters. Is that do you agree with that or do you have another approach to to this?

It's I've seen it argued very convincingly uh, both ways. And um, I think I wouldn't like I wouldn't like to say which is better, whether you should learn the script uh, at the start or or whether you should ignore the script and just learn the language. But I think there are a few things to point out on that topic.

Right.

No no question because that's that's manageable and learnable in a weekend, if you really want to. So in the case of Japanese, we're talking about the kanji, the Chinese characters. And then in the case of obviously Mandarin or Cantonese, we're talking about, well, there's there is only, you know, the field of Chinese characters. Right.

Right.

Um, and so if you're sort of short on time and you still want to make progress with your speaking and you want to really be able to speak and that's that's the most important thing for you and you know, you're not necessarily looking to integrate into Chinese lifestyle. Then I think I mean, my personal approach is is not to do much with um, Chinese characters. Right.

Right.

So I think, um, it really comes down to you know, understanding how long it's going to take. How much time it's going to take to learn Chinese characters. And then making that call for yourself, you know, whether or not you want to um, you want to spend that time. All things being equal, then yeah, learn the characters from the beginning, but you know, all things are never equal. So,

Of course.

So that's just the choice that has to be made, I think.

And and again, reiterating that you need to find your focus. I mean, if you want to learn it just to speak it casually and, you know, in conversation, then maybe the characters is not that big of a focus for you, but if you want the full package and you want and you're okay with spending relatively large amount of time on it, then go ahead and do it. But you but as you say, it has to fit with your goals.

Yeah, exactly. And I I really don't think you can make a judgment either way because I've I've heard from people who have said I mean one one guy uh, I think he watched one of my Cantonese videos. It was early on, I think two or three months and he said, man, I've been living in China for two years and and I I focused on learning Chinese characters but I still I can't speak

Wow, yeah.

as well as you. And not, you know, not that I was speaking very well at all at that stage but the point is, you know, there's a case in point of someone who has spent a lot of time focusing on Chinese characters and as a result hasn't got very far in in his speaking.

His spoken is suffering, yeah.

Yeah, so I mean, who knows his particular situation. I mean, that might not apply to everybody but but you know, that's uh, it's it's it's certainly a risk and something you've got to you've got to consider.

Right. If I mean, again, I I don't know anything about this. Can you just briefly give uh a difference between Chinese characters and the Japanese characters for somebody who doesn't know anything about it because it seems like you say, well, Japanese you should definitely do it. Chinese I would consider not doing it. But why is it that there such a difference there? Can you give me the one year the crash course.

Yeah, sure. Let me let me clarify then. So in Japanese you've got three alphabets. You've got the hiragana uh and katakana which are phonetic alphabets with I think it's 50 around about 50 50 characters in each one.

Uh-huh.

And so any any word in Japanese you can write in either hiragana or katakana.

Oh, okay.

It's phonetic.

So that's like an alphabet basically.

It's like an alphabet, except, um, a large amount of words, I'd say the majority of words are not written in hiragana or katakana, but they're written in Chinese characters.

Right.

Which is the third alphabet if you like in Japanese, except you know, you need to learn around about uh, 2,000 of those Chinese characters.

Right.

Uh, to be uh, to be fluent according to the definition of the Japanese government. It's 9 1,981 uh, Chinese characters that are suggested for daily use. Wow.

Wow.

Uh it was I think the number might have changed slightly now, but it's but that's that's the ballpark figure. And so uh, so yeah, that's the real challenge in Japanese is to um, is to learn those.

Right.

those 2,000 uh, kanji. Now in terms of in terms of Chinese, you've got uh, as far as I know. I'm no expert on this but you've got two two different sets of Chinese characters in Chinese. You've got um, you've got simplified and traditional.

Uh-huh.

Um, now simplified Chinese characters are what is used in Mandarin in the mainland. And uh, they are similar to the kind of the Chinese characters you'd get in Japan, but they've been simplified in order to make them more easy to learn, for easier to learn. Um, and they originally came from traditional Chinese characters, which is what they still use in Hong Kong and I think in Taiwan as well.

Uh-huh.

And they're much more complicated. They've got many more strokes and they're more uh, they're more old school beautiful uh, characters.

Right.

Um, so is that is that Yeah, that's that that explains it. How do you know how many there are of those or is that a completely unknown scale?

How many are those?

I've heard various numbers but you're talking in the five figures. It's at least 10 10,000 of them.

Wow.

Yeah, that's why I'm saying you really can't underestimate the size of that.

Right. And I'm imagining just the memory for for Western, so to speak, it's like, you know, you can remember remember an alphabet of say 20 20, 30, 40 characters but remembering thousands of thousands of pictures. It which is essentially is, is it's just it's a mind-boggling thing and for anyone who's done it, I I really uh, can't describe how how uh, how envious I am of that feet because that is incredible.

Yeah, although just I mean just on that point, that's not to say that every single you have to learn every single character new because what what you find is the more that you learn, the easier it gets because every character is composed of of uh, different parts. So you have a lot of kind of base uh, sort of fundamental characters and then a lot of the more complicated characters are just composites of those more simple uh, characters. So, uh, you know, it does actually definitely get easier the more that you learn.

Right. That's that's always a positive, I would say.

Well, yeah, you got you got to look for the positive. Exactly. Otherwise, you're never going to do it.

So would you would you recommend people learning uh Cantonese or should they learn Mandarin or one of the others? What what are the reasons for learning one over the other?

Uh, well, I that's very difficult to answer because I mean, I'd say if you're interested in it, then then learn it if you're not, then don't. Right. Uh, really. I mean, if you if it's purely I mean, I don't know why why one would learn a language without a particular interest in it. I I don't know.

Well, maybe they just want to learn Chinese and they don't know there's two different Chinese.

Yeah. Uh I guess, well, you've got to think about uh, if you plan on using it then I guess it's I would you would you plan on going to Hong Kong? Uh, where, you know, where do you see yourself spending spending the most time? Right. Um,

Are they similar? I mean, how I'm yeah, of course they're similar, but how similar are they? I guess is my question because, you know, I'm from Denmark and we have the similarity between Norway and Norwegian and Swedish. Is is there a similar relationship in Cantonese and Mandarin where they have the same kind of structure and use different words?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because I mean, the Cantonese is a funny one because uh, it Cantonese has no proper written language. Uh, Cantonese is a spoken dialect. And so the words are different from from China. However, you would write them in the same way. So a Chinese someone from mainland China can read uh, things that are written down in Hong Kong because in Hong Kong, you write Cantonese down using traditional Chinese, not Cantonese.

Right.

And so the grammar structure of of the of the of Mandarin and Cantonese are, you know, virtually identical as far as I'm aware. Um, what differs is when you speak Cantonese, uh, you use different words.

Right.

So, you know, you're going to get a word which written down, you would pronounce it one way, but then when you speak it, you pronounce it another way.

Wow.

So yeah, it's it's uh, it's not straightforward. That's interesting.

That's interesting. I I mean just even the concept is a little bit it's quite foreign to me that you can have a different spoken and written language existing at the same time.

Yeah, I mean, I think a good analogy is if you think of, you know, street language in uh, I mean, I I can only really think of the UK as an example if you think of something like someone in uh, walking down the street in East London. Right. The way he's going to talk, uh, you know, you would never write that down if you were writing a kind of uh, a serious piece of of writing. No. That's not how you write. So the way that you that that you speak on the street and the way that you write in the proper language, they're they're different. Um, so you can kind of see it that draw that that kind of analogy.

Right. And um, going back a little bit to uh you briefly mentioned uh motivation. Um, what do you do to keep motivated during a, let's say, one of your language missions?

Um, it's always different for me to be honest. Um, and uh, Cantonese has been a different experience because like I say, I'm not surrounded by uh, by the people or the culture. So, um, certainly in the past, when I've started to learn a language, it's always been because I've got a very real tangible reason for learning that language. So, with with French, I was in I was living in France. Um, I when I was in France, I learned Italian because I wanted to go to to Italy. And then I went to Italy. And then when I went back to the UK, I had a Spanish friend, so I learned Spanish. And um, so I you know, I motivation has never really been a problem for me because I'm motivated by the people around me and the um, you know, the prospect of being able to speak and communicate with other people in their language. You know, assuming it's people that I like and people who are around me, that's that's really all the uh, all the motivation I I I've needed to have.

Well, that that might be a good segue into uh my next question uh one of the questions I I like to ask everyone who comes on is if you had to learn a new foreign language from scratch to starting tomorrow. What kind of routines and methods would you would you work on? And and of course, this is uh the concise version uh if you if you had to uh talk about every single detail, you could probably spend two or three episodes, but you know, kind of an overview of of of of the language learning method that you've and I I use the word method carefully here. I just mean a collection of ideas. Um, that you've kind of assimilated from all your experiences of of learning these different languages.

Yeah, well I I could I could give you a fairly realistic example actually because I I've recently found out that I'm I'm going to be moving to uh, to to to Egypt. And uh, so I I I want to learn Arabic. Uh, I know some Arabic already. Um, I last year, I I I took some lessons and I I learned to read and write. Um, but in terms of kind of conversational ability, I'm you know, for all intents and purposes, I'm I'm at zero. Okay. So it's something that I'm actually, you know, gearing up for right now. So, um, it's something I'm I'm going to have to do in the in the in the coming months.

Right. And and you and you talked about the importance of having a routine. So would you have would you have like a to-do list or a calendar where you put in 50 minutes of this, then that or how structured are you when it comes to the organization of it?

Yeah, I I'm I'm not a particularly disciplined person. Uh, which is my which is my major downfall in all areas of my life. Right. Not just language learning. Uh, and I have trouble. To be honest, I have real trouble with traditional goal setting, uh, setting a routine, things like this. I just I'm too impatient. I'm too uh, you know, Right. I just I just don't have that that sticking power.

And then you find alternatives.

Yeah, and then I find something else. I mean, I find something else that I know is going to be helpful and that I need. And I will then go at that all in for another another period of time.

Right. And you're obviously you're obviously have a musical background as well. Do you incorporate that in in when you're learning a new language, finding some local music or

Uh, no, not explicitly. I mean, I I've found music in the past, but I, you know, I uh, it's not something that I consciously do.

It's an interesting concept, you know, uh, Suzanna Serebsky talks about it in her book, you know, uh, learning languages through music. And uh, I I don't do it but maybe when you had that musical background, maybe you you had uh an easier time of of using the concept.

Well, yeah, I mean let me caveat that by saying that actually when I learned Portuguese, uh, I actually I learned Portuguese entirely through music. Oh, there you go. At the beginning. It's just that I mean, I so what I did is I sat in my room and I played I learned the words to all these bossa nova songs and learned to play them on the guitar and sing them at the same time. But the thing about that is I I I'm crazy about Brazilian music. I love Brazilian music. So I I could and I did do that for for for hours on end. You know, weeks, months, days uh, just kept on going.

Well, that makes sense. Um, okay. So, last uh, question about language learning here is uh, or maybe not a question but more of a realization that when you learn a lot of languages and you move from one to the next and obviously you you don't live in a country where every single language is spoken daily. Um, do you suffer from kind of language deterioration and do you have any tools or things you do to try and combat that?

Uh, yes is the answer. I mean, the first part I do suffer from language deterioration definitely. I mean, my my French, for example, used to be great when I was in in Paris. Um, and you know, whilst I still understand everything, uh, I can't speak it particularly well anymore. Um, or certainly not as well as I as I used to. And uh, you know, my Japanese, I I've been out of Japan now for a year and a half and I haven't used my Japanese. So, I I I notice myself getting less sharp.

Right.

Um, the thing is for me that I really don't treat um, language language learning for me is not a sort of academic exercise that I do for the sake of it. It's really it's it's something that I almost feel like I have to do because of my surroundings. Um, so, you know, when I was in Japan, I just I just had to learn Japanese. I mean, for me, there's no choice. I I felt like I had to do it. And so for me the whole the whole reason I'm learning the language is because of the either the environment that I'm in or or the people that I'm with. And so if I if I move away from that environment, I don't force myself to to keep to keep learning or to keep speaking the language. I mean, I I might want to. I've I've been, you know, for example, been watching a lot of Japanese TV recently because I because I really like it. But basically I stop really trying when my motivation to to speak it uh, disappears or if my environment changes. And so the natural consequence of that is that yeah, it does the languages do do deteriorate. Um, and so, you know, if if if I were to start speaking French right now, I'd have a I'd I'd struggle.

Right.

But in a way, I don't really care because I know that if I were if I went to France and I spent a couple of weeks there, I know it would all come back eventually.

It's not lost, it's the point, I guess.

Yeah, I mean, who knows? I mean, if I if I leave it too much longer, maybe it will be, but but I've it yeah, I just I just honestly, I don't really care whether Right. whether I lose it too much because I know I I will speak the language again at some point. But when I do it, it's because I when I do come to speak Spanish again, for example, regularly, it's because I'm going to be with my best my best friend in in uh, in in the Canary Islands and we're going to just speak Spanish for for for for two weeks non-stop. And okay, I'll be a bit rusty at the beginning, but um, it'll come back and I've got I've got confidence in that. And um, so it's it's not something that really uh, really keeps me up at night. But Right. obviously the you know, the the result of that is I I'm not I'm not someone who can necessarily speak okay, yeah, I mean, I've learned seven languages, but I can't necessarily speak all of those at the top of my game at any one point. Right. Um, like I know, I mean, I've seen, you know, there are some people out there, um, uh, Luca and and uh, Richard, for example, who speak, you know, over, you know, a dozen languages and they can do it all uh, at the same time, you know, incredibly high level. It's it's just it's it's mind-blowing. Yeah. Um, I it's not really uh, something that I'm that I'm really aiming for and uh, yeah, so I I I tend to take a very sort of natural approach to it and when I need it, I uh, I sort of dredge it out. Right. And uh, yeah.

And and the understand I guess an important point is also just because you can't speak it due to having not used it enough, this still you still understand pretty much the same level. I mean, that doesn't go away, does it?

It doesn't it does I haven't found it to go away. I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean, obviously, I probably don't understand 100% of what I would have done 10 years ago, but but I I guess I do tend to um, I do tend to to to watch stuff on TV or to listen to something in different languages from time to time. And that kind of acts as a as a booster. Right. But yeah, I mean, what what goes first is the speaking. Yeah. Without a doubt. That that, you know, if you don't speak for a for a while, that that disappears really quickly. And so I guess for someone who's maybe got got got one one main foreign language that they speak and they don't live who have been moved, you know, moved away and haven't got the opportunity to to speak that, then I think it just if you want to maintain it, then you've you've got to just take the the logical approach. You've just got to use it. You know, you have to you have to watch movies in the language. You have to read in the language. You have to schedule in opportunities to speak on Skype with people in the language. Right. Uh, if you don't want to lose it, that's what you've got to do.

Fantastic.

And um, yeah, obviously the, you know, the the result of that is I I'm not I'm not someone who can necessarily speak okay, yeah, I mean, I've learned seven languages, but I can't necessarily speak all of those at the top of my game at any one point. Right. Um, like I know, I mean, I've seen, you know, there are some people out there, um, uh, Luca and and uh, Richard, for example, who speak, you know, over, you know, a dozen languages and they can do it all uh, at the same time, you know, incredibly high level. It's it's just it's it's mind-blowing. Yeah. Um, I it's not really uh, something that I'm that I'm really aiming for and uh, yeah, so I I I tend to take a very sort of natural approach to it and when I need it, I uh, I sort of dredge it out. Right. And uh, yeah.

And um, that that that's pretty much it. If people want to find out more about you and or maybe you can talk about what what are you uh, what are you working on now if you have any stuff coming on to your blog or uh, where people can find you?

Yeah, well, I I um, I have been really, really uh, basically out of action for the last three or four months because I've been uh, working on finishing it my my my master's dissertation. And that's recently just been submitted and um, I'm yeah, it's it's it's amazing. I've finally got time again. Sweet.

Excellent. And uh what a saying title, by the way.

Yeah. It's it's it's that's what it says on the tin, right?

Exactly. And I I want to thank you so much, Olly, for for coming on to the show and and and indeed making making the connection as I've been, you know, following you for you for a while. So it's it's very nice to put a you know, the direct live voice behind the the face with the guitar.

Yeah, well, thanks very much, Chris. It's been a real pleasure.

Yeah, likewise. See you later.

Okay, take care. Thanks for listening to the Actual Fluency Podcast. For more information, be sure to check out actualfluency.com. Until next time, enjoy learning and have a great day.