Roberto Salazar: More Latin and Ancient Greek

Season 2, episode 17, Roberto Salsa, Latin and Ancient Greek. This is the actual fluency podcast, helping you become a better language learner by providing motivating weekly inspiration, as well as top tips and tricks from expert guests. And now, your host, Chris Broholm.

Hey, Chris. How are you? I'm great.

Fantastic. Melting, absolutely melting. It's like 35 degrees in Budapest, and, yeah.

Here's a little bit better, but still. Yeah. I'm waiting for the for autumn or winter or whatever or the ice age to come back.

Yeah. They're actually talking about that, aren't they, like the next 10 years or so, mini ice age, that'll be nice. But anyway, going back to Latin here.

Yeah.

Without, you know, retelling your entire story from last episode, can you just tell let us know when you got introduced to Latin, and when you sort of found out about it?

Yeah, that's true. Well, actually, I had, um, I mean, Latin is one of the languages I've been aware of for the long longest time in my life. I mean, I was, uh, when I was a kid, I, um, I was, so I was studying at the French school in Colombia, and I had a friend who who was studying Latin. She was older than I was, and, um, she spoke about it all the time. She's like, yeah, I love Latin. I'm studying Latin. I have a I have a private teacher, and I I tried to convince my mother to to pay for for private lessons, but I it didn't work. So, I was really frustrated because at the time, I I was, um, like fascinated by, um, by everything that had to do with the Roman world, and also the Greek world. I mean, I was like, I I would I would have loved to learn Latin and Greek when I was like five or six. And I had a a LaRousse dictionary, and in the LaRousse dictionary, you had like, it's a an illustrated dictionary, so you have, uh, you had like a list of, uh, Greek things, and among them was, um, the Greek alphabet. So, I I just learned the names of the letters and and and expected hoped for something to happen, which never did.

Yeah, that's fantastic. A lot of times you hear about these language dreams, and, uh, when they come to fruition, sometimes they're not as, uh, as you dreamt them.

Yeah, but I mean, it's like, I think you can't you can never be disappointed with, uh, either Latin or Greek. It's just too big to it's it's a huge universe. You can get anything from from it.

So, just taking a quick break here to have a quick message from one of our sponsors, The Melo Method. When we come back, I really want to hear about why we should learn Latin or Ancient Greek in the first place.

The Melo Method is the learning revolution since 1995. Now, you can make your dream of living your passion for languages real. Do you want a method that really teaches you a language? What if you could have your own school and get success teaching your students perfect lessons 100% focused on conversation, even if you have no experience? The Melo Method will work where other methods can't. With The Melo Method, you will overcome the speaking barrier from lesson one. Jimmy Melo, the Brazilian polyglot, has created the best method to teach any foreign language. It's now available in 11 languages, from English to Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese, including Mandarin and Polish. Be a polyglot with The Melo Method. Access right now, www.melomethod.com, and reach your goals with The Melo Method. The best method ever created to teach and learn any language.

let's get into that a little bit, because

Yeah.

starting out.

Yeah.

Would you equate their usefulness and there's what they provide to you as a person on the same level, or they're different advantages for each, just before we get into that?

That's a very complicated question, because, yeah. For me, in in in different countries like France or Germany, you you usually study both together, in a either classics, as a classics major or minor or whatever it is. You always learn both things, because although the languages are not that close, uh, being in the European and and and stuff, they aren't that close. They're two separate language families. They share a common culture. So, every time, I mean, the the Romans learned Latin. Almost anybody who has, um, any anybody in in Rome had to learn Latin, uh, sorry, Greek. So, the cultures are very similar, very different as well, but very similar and and connected historically. So, when you learn Greek and Latin together, you get like, um, like a complete view of, uh, Western and a part of Eastern, uh, antiquity. I mean, the ancient times, uh, which, uh, basically gave us, um, uh, like a huge part of of of European culture.

Right, of course.

And, um, yeah. Uh, but, um, but it could it can be useful. I mean, people say often say, Latin is very important and you should study Latin because it will help you learn, uh, romance languages. And you could say the same thing for for Greek. You should study Ancient Greek as a kid, uh, to help you learn modern Greek later. Of course, there's it's, uh, I mean, the ratio is not the same. If you learn if you according to this theory, if you learn Latin, you will be able to discover like 10 or 12 languages with the dialects, more even more, whereas Greek will allow you to learn one language, which is the thing we call modern Greek, although it's more or less the same, it's just the same language that has evolved. And maybe two or three dialects that are almost dead in, uh, three different parts of the world, uh, which are also Greek dialects, but not the same as, uh, main the main branch of modern Greek.

But isn't that isn't there a bit of a problem with learning Latin in general is that it's quite difficult, like the the vocabulary is, you know, what it is, is a vocabulary, but the grammar from my brief stint in Latin about, uh, one semester. So, it's quite brief, but from what I could tell, it was sort of quite difficult.

It is, I mean, it's not as, uh, I wouldn't say it's difficult as much as it is, um, complex. It doesn't mean that you have to, I mean, I would I would say that, for example, uh, um, Turkish grammar is easier to understand, but, uh, and it is very complex. But Latin grammar, although it's difficult to understand, it's easier to read for for like for a a normal European citizen speaks either, I don't know, Danish or Swedish or Spanish or German, it's easier to to learn Latin than, uh, Turkish, because you can get to understand the language easily more easily. And I think one of the problems is that it's not really well taught. And, um,

You don't have it for long, either. Like I said, I had it for six months in in high school, and that's not going to teach you anything, really.

No, of course not. Of course not. And that's one of the problems right now here in in France. There's, um, uh, a reform going on, uh, and Latin and Greek are slowly disappearing from our curriculums. So, so the problem is that, uh, we are keeping to the basics. Uh, we're learning like a little bit of etymology, a couple of words here and there. And, uh, although the argument for keeping up with Latin and for studying Latin in, uh, high school or, uh, in I mean, here in in in France, you can start, uh, you can study it for, I mean, in in school for at least, uh, I think three years, and you can study it six or seven years, uh, as a whole. And, um, so, but the problem is that now we just want to keep to the basics, and, uh, to the basics, and then, um, try to, well, at the same time, uh, saying that it's important, uh, to learn Latin words in order to to be better in English or in French or in Spanish or whatever. Although you're not really learning the language.

Yeah, that's preposterous. Right, you wouldn't you would never imagine doing that with any other language.

Except I guess it's just because of the dead status.

Yeah. But what I wanted to just, uh, quickly refocus on people talking, you know, when people are listening to this, I assume they're like language learners. They want to learn a lot of languages, or maybe just one language really well. What I'm really curious about is the is the investment into taking, let's say, I mean, how long would it take? I don't know. I hate this kind of question anyway. But let's let's take it would take you a year to get a really solid grasp in Latin focusing on it as your main study.

Yeah.

It will take longer. Maybe it will take, I don't know, three months if you're Benny Lewis, I don't know. But, um, would the investment be worth it compared to just spending that time on your target language or other target languages? Would you say that the the educational value and the value you can bring to learning new languages is great enough that it's worth doing? Because you say that we need a really good level of Latin to be able to enjoy the benefits of it, or at least the full benefits of it. But would you then advise people to learn Latin, you know, the aspiring polyglots out there who are like, I want to learn 10 languages and I'm on my second or something. What what do you what do you think about that?

Well, I think, yeah. I think, yeah. I think it's a good very good investment, because, uh, for one thing, it's hard, so you'll have to make some efforts. It's more or less like Russian, but if you're if you're if you're coming from, uh, English or, uh, a Roman's language, or even from from German, uh, it's not going to be as hard as as Russian, because of the words, because of the vocabulary. Whereas a Slavic language is going to be harder. You're going to have to memorize a lot of things, and Russian grammar is really complicated. It's not I mean, Latin may or may not be more complicated than Russian or the other way around. I'm not sure. Both both are very complex. But, um, but, uh, but the thing is, um, uh, it all depends on what you want to achieve, and you want to what you want to get from that those languages. Of course, Latin is a language that's more interesting for people who like things like literature, or are interested in history, or, uh, philosophy, or even even sciences, because it it can help you understand better what whatever it is you do in those fields. And it it has a lot of very good touristic value, because you can always read in at least in Europe, all the inscriptions all around the cities. So, you will be really if you have a date and you want to you want to impress this person, you just walk around the for example, Berlin or Paris reading all the Latin inscriptions and be very very amazing. Uh, while doing it.

Right.

And you will be able to guess, uh, a lot of different things for because the the structure is closer is is close to that of, uh, some other languages, and the vocabulary is more or less the same. And, um, once you've achieved a good level, not necessarily a very good, an excellent level, but a good level, it will actually empower you. That's that's one of one of the amazing things about learning languages that are mother languages of other different of of a whole family, for example. Is that the thing is when you learn, uh, Latin roots, and not only roots, and roots with the language and in the language, uh, then you get a a deeper grasp of, uh, the meaning of those, uh, Latin roots in all the languages you're learning. And you get, uh, a better grasp of, um, construction patterns, uh, and structural patterns in in the Roman's languages, for example. You know, what you get to know to understand perfectly why a prefix should have this meaning, why, um, why why why a word evolved from this meaning to that other meaning. So, it really gives you a sort of power over language. And it it allows you to to to understand language in a at a deeper level.

Cool.

I would say. And that happens with, uh, Latin and Greek, and, uh, it could happen as well with Sanskrit, uh, which is also a very interesting language, older than Latin and Greek, more complex, uh, and which could be also really useful when you're studying like Indian languages. But, um, but yeah, yeah, I think that that's important thing, that Latin gives you, um, a kind of depth that only a language that's, uh, 2,000 years old can give you. And that that's that's the amazing thing. The other amazing thing is that you will never run out of materials to read.

Okay.

That's, uh, if you want to practice, go ahead. I mean, there's a lot of different things for all levels, written at all different times. And there's people who still write in Latin today.

I've seen the Harry Potter books in Latin.

Yeah, yeah, that's that's very that's really fun. That's that's really fun.

Did you read them in Latin?

I haven't read them in Latin, because I'm, well, I used to I I read like I liked I read like the first two books, uh, a long time a long time ago. But, uh, I didn't I I just stopped liking them. So, I didn't Wait a second, sorry. So, I didn't I didn't go I didn't go for that. But I would love to read them because I think it's, um, it can be very helpful for me as well, uh, being as, um, it's, um, they're written in a very in a more a kind of simpler language.

Well, it's very interesting, anyway. And one other thing that I've noticed, and why I said there was a bit of a a rise in popularity lately with Latin is because I heard about the well, not only the books that you're talking about, you know, they're they're actually being written books. I read one of my friends had a great book. Um, it was a Latin professor from England who wrote a book where he translated really trendy English sayings into Latin. So, like nice ass or, you know, some stupid phrases like that. Um, and they were quite popular. And you know, it's like a book you can put in your toilet or something to read while you're in there. But at at the end of the day, it shows that there is some kind of renewed interest, and I always hear about it in the polyglot community. I hear about people speaking about Latin, and and also talking about learning it. And I know you also talk, speak Latin.

Yes.

And I guess that's a very important distinction to make is that most people don't learn to speak Latin, which you pointed out a few minutes ago. But that's what they're trying to do now, right, isn't it? The sort of, can you tell us a little bit about the opportunities to actually speak Latin right now?

Sure, sure. There's a lot of things. I mean, Latin is a language that, uh, I mean, contrary to what, uh, everybody believes, it's a language that's never actually died. I mean, of course, there's, um, no or almost no, uh, native speakers of Latin today, but they were there were for a long time. I mean, I I guess early into the, um, into the early 20th century, there would have been a couple of families where, uh, children grew up speaking Latin. It was very limited, but it it was still practiced at at some point. And, uh, it's a language that has never been, uh, has has always been spoken in a very in a more like more, um, educated way. Of course, it's not, uh, you wouldn't go buy, uh, some, uh, groceries in Latin today, although you could, but, um, that that doesn't happen. But still, it's a language that's practiced as a spoken one, and, um, I think that's the best method. And I was I was, uh, telling you earlier that I I, so I did my very basic, uh, like the first steps I made in Latin were, uh, in a very classical, very French following, I mean, very French steps according to a method that's really only written stuff and reading and learning grammar and memorizing vocabulary lists and stuff. And, um, but, uh, the moment I started really, uh, making progress was when I met a guy, an American, actually, who, uh, who now leads, uh, a very interesting institute, uh, for, uh, which promotes, uh, spoken ancient languages. And this guy, uh, organized, uh, a spoken Latin seminar, uh, at our school, at our university in here in Paris. And so, we we, uh, I came every I think it was every Monday to the school, uh, we met, uh, we're group there were maybe 10 of us, and we read Latin texts in Latin, and we tried to speak, and we tried to to paraphrase, uh, complex texts, and build to build easy sentences from complicated sentences. And, um, that helped a lot. And then slowly, I became, uh, more and more convinced that you had to speak Latin to really master it. Of course, it's not it's not really a must, but it's better. If you if you start Latin through this spoken method, uh, you will get like a more intuitive approach to it, and you will be reading it, uh, maybe not in no time, but, uh, really faster than than you would have if you just kept to to grammar and and and books.

Wow.

In Latin and Greek. So, and and that really helps a lot. And when you see these guys, these guys are amazing, and they have a level of, uh, ancient in ancient languages that can be matched by almost anybody. They're really good. And that so, they these people, uh, make the impossible possible. They can just read ancient texts with no problems. Things that appear absolutely impossible for anybody.

Cool. And, uh, what about pronunciation? Because, I guess, there are no tape recordings from Ancient Rome.

No, well, fortunately, unfortunately, not.

to listen to how people actually spoke. So, how did how did you or how did the Latin speakers of today come up with the pronunciation that they they have?

So, that's that's like the tragedy of my life. I think if really I I swear. If I if I could just have one wish, well, maybe maybe not. But yeah, I think what if I could really get something, because I don't I don't care. I mean, money, maybe I can get some money. I can survive with what I have. It's not much. But, um, that wouldn't be the thing I would ask. I would ask to go there to be, uh, both in Athens in the 5th century BC, and in Rome in the 1st century BC, and listen to people, and listen to how they spoke, and just have a tape recorder or, uh, I don't know, my phone, and just record them speaking, and just keep that, and learn to speak with them, and how and and learn how they spoke. Because that's a matter of debate, and it has never stopped. I mean, everybody talks talks about it, uh, all the time, and, um, in in academic circles. And, uh, yeah, well, we have a pretty good idea of what it was.

Is it is there a a-agreed is there an agreed standard or is it different if you're a Latin speaker from America or France or Italy?

No, there is an agreed standard, but that doesn't mean you have to use it. I mean, there's an agreed reconstructed pronunciation.

Okay.

Yeah, no, it's it's more or less like it's not more or less like Esperanto. I mean, everybody speaks it more or less with their accent.

Yeah. But it's cool.

But, um, but actually, uh, but actually, the thing is, uh, so everybody speaks it with with their accent, but, um, there is an official reconstructed pronunciation that has been reconstructed through scientific method. I mean, uh, by looking at books where the Latin the the Romans, uh, told us how they pronounced in a very rough I mean, it's a very it's not very linguistically significant because it's it's hard to know what they meant when they said like, r, the r is pronounced like the the noise made by a dog, by a snarling dog. So, it can be almost anything.

Yeah.

But we have a pretty good idea of what it was, and then, uh, the evolution, I mean, the historical historical phonetics allow us to to deduce more or less what it would have been, uh, from comparisons between modern languages. I mean, uh, we know that, uh, this pronunciation of C in Spanish corresponds to this pronunciation of C in in French and Italian, and that means that it must have been pronounced, uh, as a as as as this phoneme. And then you have like, uh, documents written by people at the time, and then you have all the the mistakes they could have made. Um, for example, a good source is are are all the graffiti left by the Romans in Pompeii and and other, uh, ancient cities, where you see, uh, how, uh, the the the lower classes, uh, who didn't have access to a very good education would write some some of the words. So, then from the spelling mistakes, you can, uh, more or less, uh, know how what what what the sound was like.

Wow.

Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, that's that's that's why I'm talking about it. It's it's absolutely fascinating, and it's a it's an incredible word world, and it's, uh, incredibly close to us and also incredibly far from our our our reality. So, that's one of the reasons, you know. That's one of the reasons Latin is so so interesting. And maybe much more interesting for European people, non-Greek European people than than Greek, because, um, there are a lot of words, uh, that mean a lot of different things for us, and then we when we look at the the original meaning of those words, it's fascinating to see how they've changed and, um, to what they refer what they referred to, uh, in like 2,000 years ago. And sometimes to see that the words have have have had absolutely no change in 2,500 years or something.

Yeah, that's amazing.

Yeah. And in Greek, it's it's even worse, because, uh, uh, for to a to a like to a Roman ear, like a French ear or a or a Spanish ear, uh, Greek words sound very sound really fancy. You know, like, oh, very complex, like metaphor. For example, metaphor in, um, uh, in a in in modern languages, it's a poetic figure. Uh, it's it's poetry. But if you go to Greece, metaphor means transport, transportation. So, and that's the same thing for all the words in, uh, of Greek origin, because they're they're words. So, they belong to, uh, high to the higher culture of the time. So, they were transmitted with this, uh, feeling of, uh, superior superiority. And now when you go, well, but it happens as well with modern Greek. But now when you go to Greece or when you learn Ancient Greek, you see how, um, those words that seem very, uh, I don't know, pretentious to to us, are actually very plain words in in other ancient language.

Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, it's really really cool.

Cool. And now, I guess, for the final, uh, question before we both, uh, pass out from heatstroke, um, if, you know, people listening to this are probably like, okay, I'm so pumped. I love the sound of this. It sounds amazing. I'm going to go learn Latin right now. What would be your top five tips for people who are going to go learn Latin right after this?

Yeah, sure. Well, um, first

or three, whatever comes to mind.

Yeah, I mean, the first thing would be to, well, stay motivated because it can be hard. Uh, not necessarily, but it can be hard. Uh, you really have to get good materials, and you have to get materials that are not only, uh, directed to people who just want to read. So, you will have to get a good grammar, uh, but not too complicated. Like in France, there's a lot of different, uh, things, and in Amazon, you can just, uh, look them up, and there's a lot of, uh, of easier stuff, uh, you can you can begin with. Uh, then, um, so that's for the written part. And then you should have a book like, uh, Conversational Latin for Oral Proficiency, which is a very good book. I don't remember the author, but it's Conversational Latin for Oral Proficiency. And, uh, well, uh, if you speak French or German or Italian, you can get, uh, the Assimil method, uh, of which there are two versions. Like in French, there's a an older version, which which is really good, like the it's called the Dessisard method. Uh, it's an Assimil one, but it was written by Dessisard. And, which is really good. And then there's the other one, like 2005, uh, version, which is really not that good. It's a lot of mistakes in it. And, um, it's been translated into German and Italian, and if you buy from it will be released again, uh, the older version in French, uh, because the the other one wasn't that good in September this year. And my voice will be in it, so it's it's really cool. So, if you want to listen to me speaking speaking Latin, you can get that. But you can just get the book. I think you can download it from, I don't know where. You can find it. Um,

No, of course, get the full book set. Of course, get the get the CDs as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

Support the company.

Exactly. No, but yeah, and then then now there's just so many different cool resources online. Like on YouTube, just look for, uh, Latinum, like Latin with U M at the end. And there's a guy who for free just gives you a lot of tips, uh, reads text for you with a very good accent, restored pronunciation, all. And, uh, a very good website would be, uh, www, uh, dot, uh, text kit, text kit dot com, I think. Text kit. And there you have hundreds of materials.

That's cool. And of course, uh, you'll be at the various polyglot gatherings around

Yeah.

Europe. So, if people want to practice some Latin or ask you questions about Latin, they can, uh,

Yeah.

they can just come up and say, uh, 'Saluton' or 'Servus' or whatever the word is.

It's it's you can say like, 'Salve,' 'Salve.' Most people a lot of people say, 'Salve,' because of the again, this is one of the pronunciation changes. You know, V V U, it depends on the country. Restore pronunciation would be 'Salve.' Uh, Italian pronunciation, ecclesiastical pronunciation would be 'Salve.' And, um, but yeah, that and and just look look it up in your city, in your hometown. There must be if if you're living a pretty big city, you there must be a Latin circle. So, if you're you're interested in listening to it, in meeting people, uh, who who want to speak it, do it. And if you're if you if you already speak Latin, but you don't you haven't found anybody to speak with, uh, try and create your own, um, your own Latin circle. Like, go on Meetup and write something like, Latin circle, I'm looking for people to practice my Latin. I mean, I think it's really good because, um, one of the things, um, um, about Latin is that there's no like ideology or no no central central unique theme or thematic. Uh, people have very different expectations, and some people learn it because I once met a guy who who had just, uh, uh, learning something is is my phone. Sorry.

So unprofessional.

I'm sorry. It was it was not it was not here. It was far from me and it it's just started ringing.

It's okay. the production value of the show is not that high anyway.

Absolutely sorry. No, but it it happens to very important people as well. So, I would just say that, yeah. I'm I'm so I'm such a I'm such a busy man that I couldn't I couldn't just not have my phone on me.

It always rings during recording too. Like, it's probably hasn't rung for like eight hours, but now it goes off. That's what usually happens to me. I won't get a call for days, and then the hour I'm doing the recording, they'll they'll ring. So,

Yeah.

But anyway, it's it's really cool to sort of get into this Latin. And I'm hope that we, uh, answered some of people's questions and curiosity about Latin and hopefully we can inspire some people to look into it. I I know personally that for me, time is not right now for for Latin, but I'm definitely not against the possibility of doing it in the future for sure.

Right, that would be great. That would be great. And, yeah, no, you you you really, yeah, I mean, I'm not I really, oh. And, yeah, I mean, I just it's a very open it's a very open language. It can take it can welcome anybody, and, and you can it's not you can just learn it to the point, uh, of your own satisfaction. I mean, it doesn't if you just want to know some etymology, it's really good. If you want to if you want to speak Latin, it's really great. If you just want to read it, you can do that too. Um, it's a language that is so rich that you can just have very different goals. It's not just about communication. It's not just about traveling. It's not just about, um, culture, and it's not just about linguistics. It can be a really good tool for a lot of different things.

It's not all or nothing, you mean. You don't have to become totally fluent to gain any use from it. Right.

Yeah, exactly. You mean, if you want to get fluent, that's my objective. I couldn't I couldn't live without being fluent in Latin, and I'm still not at a point where I can say like, I understand everything I read because it's a complex language, and it's an old language, and it changes a lot in different according to different time times. But, uh, I'm I'm pretty up high up there. Uh, and, uh, but there are a lot of people who just learn it for fun, because they like, uh, the challenge, because they like, uh, cases, because they want to get into they want to understand more about culture, because they're really into inscriptions and they really want to impress people when they they're doing they're traveling around Europe.

Just to talk to

And I guarantee that Latin is easier than Polish if you

Awesome. Well, you're so cool, man. Thank you so much for coming on again to, uh,

Yeah, thank you for inviting me.

talking about Latin.

Latin, and, uh, I'm sure, uh, I'll see you soon somewhere.

Hopefully, yeah. Absolutely. Well, I'm going to Berlin next month, but, um, I don't know if you'll be there.

No, no, but I mean, traveling, you know. One never knows.

One never knows, that's true. No, I'll be in in New York for October. That's my next.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Are you planning? Or?

Uh, would love to. I don't know I don't think I I will have the money. Uh, maybe, maybe. I I, um, I'm still I'm still waiting for some something to come up. I'm not I don't know yet. But I I

It's expensive for sure. I mean.

It's expensive, and I don't know if I'll Yeah, I don't know if I'll have the time to go there at that at that moment. Exactly.

Well, I hope you'll I hope you'll find the time and the the money for it, because, uh,

And if not, I'll I'll hope that there will be Latin Latin speakers in New York. I mean, they are they are, but at the conference.

Right. Yeah, that could be a lot of fun too. But, uh, all right. I'm I think I'm going to go stick my head in the fridge, and

Go ahead.

I'll talk to you later, and thank you so much.

Thank you. It was it was absolutely amazing. I love speaking about Latin.

I can tell. I can tell.

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

You're welcome.