Alex Voloza: Mindfulness and language learning

Language learning is an amazing journey of personal development and it can take you amazing places. It can change your life, literally. It can open up opportunities you would never dream of. And the beautiful thing is when you start, you know, when you take that first step, you have no idea where it can take you. This is the actual fluency podcast, helping you become a better language learner by providing motivating weekly inspiration, as well as top tips and tricks from expert guests. And now, your host, Kris Broholm.

Um, all right. Thanks for having me. Um, my name is Alex Koshkin. I'm 31. Um, I come from Ukraine originally and uh, I've been learning languages for the past 20 years. Uh, that's a short version.

Um, I was uh I've been a real fan of languages since I was uh a kid. Uh, grew up in post-Soviet Ukraine. And uh, the reality was, um, not really fun. So I started learning language languages uh as a kid, as a teenager, and uh, um, it turned out to be um a great a great alternative to to the world um around me. And then this is basically how it started.

And uh, what followed was that I became a student uh became a language student, um a translator, an interpreter, and moved to Germany when I was 21. And I've been living in Germany for the last years. And um, later on I became a polyglot and the world traveler. So that's a bit longer version.

So take us back to those uh like you say you always had an interest for languages. How did that sort of manifest in the beginning?

Um, well the start has been not has not been that impressive. Uh, actually, had problems with English at school when I was eight, nine years old, and uh, I got sick a lot and missed classes and then I couldn't catch up with the group even. So my parents uh had to find had to look for tutors for me, so that I can, you know, manage the school program. So at the beginning it was pretty modest.

And um, then I think I was 11, uh, when my parents got a tutor for me, um, who changed my life, I can put it like this. It was a really charismatic guy. He was a young university professor, 26 years of age. And he totally changed my view on on languages. He just showed me how amazing languages can be. It was extremely hard. Um, he gave me homework that he gave to his university students, you know. And I was just uh just an 11-year-old kid. Right. But it was so much fun that I got hooked. And um, that pretty much was a game changer, you know.

Wow. Talk about a a faithful encounter.

That's exactly what it was. And uh, it was not that this guy actually taught me the language. Um, I guess it was more that he opened the doors for me, right? He showed me that language learning can be fun and that it's doable. And I think when we stopped working, he and I was 12. So my level was probably maybe B1 tops. But you know, it's not important. It it was important that he showed me the way. And uh, what happened later was just uh a journey, you know, of discovery and self-discovery. But he just showed me the way. I think that's what happened.

Right. That's really interesting. So more like a language coach really than than a teacher.

I think he was he was even a life coach because he I was I was really 11 years old and he talked to me like he would be talking to a grown-up. And he told me things like, if you want to succeed in this world, you have to be, as we as he told me in Russian, you have to be two heads higher than all the rest then people would notice you. And nobody has ever talked to me like this, you know, you know, how do grown-ups talk to kids? Like they would talk to kids. So, uh, this person was uh really important to me.

Yeah, I understand that. So so take us up a few years. You've got the you were bitten by the bug back then in 11. So how did you move move up towards like where you are today? How did you develop it further?

Uh it's been a long way. So what happened, what happened was I would start uh preparing for language competitions at school and uh the lycée for foreign languages where I studied. And um, everybody went uh went to sleep at my place at nights and I would uh, you know, write essays and uh look up entries in uh my first computer dictionary. And um, it turned into into a habit, you know? I just over over those years as a teenager, I learned how to spend time with languages by myself. And I sort of learned to see the fun part of it because obviously, if you don't like it, you would never spend so much time with the language.

So, um, Right. That that helped me a lot later in life because uh when I was 16, I ended up winning the all-Ukrainian competition in English. And that allowed me to choose any university in the country to go to without having to pay for studies. So that was the whole big life-changing moment that happened in my life thanks to languages.

And I chose to go to go study German because But at that point my English was pretty fluent and uh I just wanted to to do something new, something else. And German was my second language and it was extremely bad. My German, I mean, um, so I said, now that I've been learning German for nine years at school, I need, you know, I need to get it to to a decent level. So I took up um German translation and interpreting and I spent the following five years uh doing a bachelor and then a master um in translation and interpreting, um in German language.

Wow. That's uh that's a lot of time for for such a focused studies. So I guess you were pretty good by the end.

Yeah, I think what I learned before, uh, you know, with my first foreign language with English, that definitely helped a lot with German because it was basically the same skill. Um, I I think I never liked German as much as I liked English, but I could apply the the things that I learned and use the confidence that I got learning English, you know. So I think it's extremely important to have that feeling that that small success. And um, if you if you did it once, what what worked once with English. Even when it got really hard with German, I had that feeling, well, if it worked one time, if I try a bit harder or stick with it a bit longer, it can work with another language, too. And uh, this is what definitely helped.

That's really cool. So is that's like uh is that like a a fundamental philosophy or is it more like a like a a structural tactic? Like uh like when you say you use the same, you know, you did the same, does that mean you were kind of doing the same

This were the times before personal development. It was just just a feeling, you know, when it got hard, I told myself, well, you you it worked with English. Why don't you apply exactly, why don't you apply the same things to to learn in German? And uh then it was sort of self-discovery. So what did I do with English? I spend time with it. Um, I was doing fun things and then um, I discovered the the library of Goethe Institut. You know, the uh the the institute that promotes promotes German German language learning, and I remember I was 20 years old, I used to go there, go to the library and find some CDs, uh some German music to listen to. Um, and uh visited the book market and looked uh looked for German books.

Because these were the times when we still had no internet. So we were still limited in materials. So I tried to get as many materials as I could and try, try, try. Um, to do my best, you know, if it was too hard I had to put it aside. So I had to look for something that would match my level. But uh, you know, I kept trying and uh over time, of course, over the years it it got better.

Yeah, of course and I'm sure we'll get get back to the uh persistence trait in a moment, but so to uh to just set a little bit of back story. We've been chatting a couple of times over the last month or so. And we always seem to end up on the same kind of topics. Um, so of course, we're going to get into that today. And I don't know, what would you call like the if you had to put a theme to the conversations we had recently, what would you put as like the overarching theme?

Um, I would say that uh language learning is um, first of all, it's a journey, and uh I see it as a journey of self-discovery. Um, you can achieve so much through language learning. You can find out more about yourself. And as you keep learning about yourself, you you you develop your unique style of language learning, you know. How you personally do it, what works for you, what doesn't. And that's basically the same thing with other things in life.

And of course, uh language as you learn languages, so many new opportunities open up for you in life. And it's like it's definitely part of your life journey and you never know where it's going to take you. Um, so I find it a very interesting um aspect.

Yeah. Yeah, I would say something similar. I would say what I off I've said this more than once on the podcast before, but I often feel like the what makes a good language learner is really just what makes somebody good at life in a way, or cheesy that sounds like you know, if you have success in one area of life, you can usually use the uh philosophies or the approach to generate similar results, like we often talk how similar things like weight loss and and language learning are. It's it's you use the same principles over and over again. But I think you could kind of extend that to pretty much anything, like careers, uh, relationships even, you know, it's it's all the same in a way.

And to be honest, that's something I discovered after I got into language learning. You know, you know, I got in kind of late into the party, so to speak. Uh, I was lucky to to get three languages for free when I grew up. Oops, uh, just dropped something. Um, but um, I didn't really do a lot of like conscious independent study because I didn't have that person, you know, that you had that university professor to kind of guide you and show you what was possible. Nobody ever did that for me. They did show me like that language learning could be fun in a classroom setting, but I never met anyone or was introduced to anyone to spark the idea that I could actually do it on my own. Uh, until like, you know, a couple of years ago. So, so that's why why the story is is a little different. But what I've realized is just it's just it's it's the metaphor for for life is language learning is really the same thing. Like when we talk about doing well in language learning, you could literally take that and apply it to everything. So so that's what I really like.

And you can do it all the way around. If you already succeeded in something else in life, you can use that experience and project it onto language learning and apply the same tactics. So it's it only takes a change in your attitude to to that it's all the same, that it's all intertwined, interconnected. And then you can apply it, of course, to your own benefit.

And uh, we were saying that language learning is a skill. So what applies to other skills also applies to language learning. Like uh, start slow, take baby steps, uh, maintain a time long-term perspective, you know. Exactly, treat it as a marathon and not as a sprint. Um, do not compare yourself to others. Run your own race. You know, all those things that apply to whatever, you know, public speaking, blogging, uh, sport, weight loss, so anything.

So why is it still so hard?

Why is it so hard?

Yeah, like if if if if the answer to doing well at anything is the same as doing well in something. Why is it still so hard?

I would say because it's simple but not easy, right? That's what I say. I like that one. I like that one, yeah. The rules are very simple, but the application uh differs, right? Oh, yeah. But I would say it definitely helps to realize this. The awareness of it is uh hugely important. Because most people do not think about it like this, maybe. But once you know it, it's the first step.

And you can of course read a lot of blogs and how to how to succeed in uh learning new skills and acquiring new habits, new routines. And you start applying that knowledge and then it works. Like uh, start slow, have accountability, have somebody who would hold you accountable. And um, you know, if you have a problem, have somebody to talk about it, you know, be it your teacher, your your coach, or other people who are learning the same language. Um, that that all of those things work. You just need to be aware of them and you know, create that system, uh, that unique system of language learning that would work for you and apply it long enough and then you will, you know, undoubtedly, um, see the results.

It's a long, it's a long game for sure. Like I'm sure if you put in a lot of hard work, you can get really far in say languages that aren't too dissimilar from your own, but if it's any kind of challenge that you have any kind of, you know, job or family or whatever obligations. It is really a long-term game and it if you don't treat it as such, you can really backfire, I feel like, because I I got really demotivated uh early on. Because it's just I expected so much more. I guess I was also a little bit naive based on the kind of materials I'd seen online, they were a little bit essentially they what do you call it? Sensational in the sense that they would only, you know, post something if they were really great, like, you know, how to lose, uh, I don't know, 20 kilos in two months or maybe less time, I don't know. Yes, sure. How to be fluent in three months, right? Yeah, or even less. You could say, yeah, to uh, you can to Mr. Lewis, but, you know,

and I I I think that reading his blog was both a a huge blessing for me, but also a huge like disadvantage because it's it it gave me inspiration and and kind of the push I needed to pursue something really awesome. So that's amazing. But also it gave me incredibly false hopes and delusions about what was possible. I mean, or not what was possible, what was possible for me.

I can also I I also have a story concerning be fluent in three months and and Benny Lewis's blog. And I also had the same results. It was really, really motivated when I found it and it has also been a game changer for me. Um, I only started getting into polyglottery and I had this idea, what do I want to do with my life, right? I want to go for something big. And then I had an idea, okay, I've been learning languages. I have, uh, pretty good knowledge of German, English. So what is next? And then I thought, maybe I could learn 10 languages. And this could be a lifelong project, you know? I would invest years and years. I would work for it like crazy. And then I would get there.

And you know, I was so excited that I started googling polyglottery and people who speak many languages. And this is how I found Benny Lewis's blog. And I started reading. It was fluent in three months. And I thought, oh my God, that's amazing. And maybe I would not even need a whole life to do it. So anyways, I decided to experiment and I had a check mission. So I set myself a goal to learn Check from scratch to B2 in 100 days. It was all totally inspired by Benny Lewis. So, um, you know what? I did pass the B2 exam after 100 days.

Oh wow. That's really great job.

So, um, yes, good job for me, but also thank you very much to Benny Lewis because he was the inspiration. I've been working like crazy for eight hours a day. I would just, you know, yeah, that's that's what Benny says. So that makes sense. So I did it. I was working, I was, you know, listening to check materials when I was in the office at work, during breaks. I was talking to myself all day. I woke up listening to Check news. And um, so it's not false. I really after 100 days of this Herculean effort, I was fluent enough to pass B2.

Well, I spoke Russian, Ukrainian and Polish by that time. So it's just another Slavic language. I'm not saying it's uh, you know. So it was not Chinese in three months or No, no, no. No, not. So that was that was like me learning, I don't know, Spanish, well, yeah, Spanish or something, French. Maybe Dutch, maybe Dutch. Oh, yeah, Dutch as well. Yeah, they're so similar, those languages. But still it's a lot of work, of course.

So, uh, so that was that was the amazing thing. The bad thing was that after three months, after those 100 days, I stopped learning Check and I forgot it as soon as quickly I learned it. Yeah. That's the whole truth. And I think it's important to to say that, to share this idea that maybe you can do those wonders, um, with your target language and get really far in 90 days, 100 days. But uh, it's not enough to

Right. But there's also something there's also something slightly I don't know what to call it, but there's something weird about spending, let's say, eight hours a day learning a language for three months and then as soon as you've learned it, you're just done. You say, okay, I'm done learning Check now and then you forget about it for for forever. And then it's like, well, what was the point really in the beginning then?

I wanted to prove myself that it's possible and I did.

Right, but in my experience. Right. Uh, but uh, yeah. So we were we started from the thought that it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. I just wanted to tell this it's proof that I'm just saying that it's an interesting it's an interesting uh kind of topic anyway, because I think well, I've definitely been a victim of it that you you kind of get into this uh maybe you've read Benny's blog or whatever and you're like, okay, I'm going to learn 10 languages.

But my parents are like completely, you know, they don't have any mixed uh, you know, heritage or anything. You don't have any you don't have dual language parents or anything. You're just sitting at home, like for me, my family as far as I could trace it back are purely Danes. All Danish. My parents they don't speak any other languages. I don't have any foreigners in the family at all. So for me, picking a language was actually pretty hard, which is a different kind of problem, I guess.

Um, true, true. No, anyways, this example shows that those 90-day projects are amazing, but only as a start. Um, you cannot learn a language forever in three months. Well, I cannot. There are a few people out there who maybe can. But most most of the people realistically cannot. So it takes an effort a lot longer than three months, maybe at least a year, maybe two years of consistent effort. And and consistent effort over a longer period of time like one or two years at least, it uh it it provides a better long-term results in any case.

Yeah, I think that's definitely true. Like if I'm feeling that for sure. And it feels like that the more time like we spent we talked about that a little bit as well. Um, the more time I spend on a language, the more confident I get in it on a sort of holistic view, you know, the big picture things, not just small sentences or anything.

True, true. So you your brain just needs that time. You there are no shortcuts to that. And uh even if you can cram all of that, you know, it's not long-term memory and those thing neural connections, right? They're not strong enough.

Right. And if you don't maintain them, they basically by spending time with the language over several years, you make those neural connections stronger. And then you just the language is just there and it will stay there for longer. So, you know, just treat it as a marathon then.

All right. So what kind of uh sorry, there's a little bit of an echo. I don't know if you can turn it down just a little bit.

Okay.

Hello. Yeah, that's better. That's much better. Yeah, thanks. Well, I can still hear myself a little bit, but uh hope it doesn't come through uh too much.

Okay.

Um, what was I saying? Oh, yeah, um motivation is an interesting I find. Uh, do you have do or I guess I should say, what kind of problems do you face when you sort of at at a motivational level or maybe even further back than that in in language learning? What have you faced in the past and are you still facing any kind of problems there?

I think motivation is a very individual and unique for every one of us. The reasons why we start learning language in the first place and what makes us continue. Um, you cannot, you know, they say you cannot fake passion, right? Nobody cannot nobody can tell you why you should be passionate about a thing. You you created it in your own mind by yourself.

So in my case, um, it was the idea of becoming a polyglot and becoming fluent in 10 languages. That was, you know, my mission. Right. Uh, I devised it for myself and it was my project. Nobody was controlling it and nobody really cared a lot because I didn't share it a lot with people. But that kept me on fire for a really long time. You know? Yeah. It was my idea that I kept in my head. Every day, I was waking up for several years, I would say, uh, thinking about this mission because I really believed in it. And that determined the choices that I was making. So the choices of listening to to the podcasts on on the way to work, back home from work, how I spent free time, everything. But it was my personal motivation. It was my personal mission. And um, of course, I do not suggest that all of us should attempt the same. Of course not. But I think every one of us should think of a reason why we're in it in the first place. And that should make sense for us. Yeah. And and um, if that is the case then it's very good.

Another aspect is that it's uh we we should know ourselves. We should discover how we learn and what type of a system we need to keep going because some of us are independent language learners or can become independent language learners. Right. So we can maintain that motivation by ourselves because our, you know, our reason is big enough. But I know some people, uh, they need that accountability system. They need somebody to give them homework. They need somebody to control them. Uh, they need to be in a group setting to see other people who would be doing the same thing working on the same skill. So for these people, of course, if you know that about yourself, do not, you know, uh, do what works for you. So if uh if a group setting works for you then, of course, if you if it is possible for you go and take part in a language course or sign up for, you know, language school and go to university.

Right. It could be tough sometimes though. Like um, for instance, progress could be a little bit tough to track.

Um, you mean if you work alone?

I just mean like if you just start learning, you know, foreign languages. True. And you don't know what your strengths are. And you try a couple of things, but nothing really sticks. What do you know what to do then?

Exactly. So right now we we're in the 21st century with all those amazing videos. You know, YouTube uh YouTube videos, blogs, where people where other people share what they're going through. I think that helps a lot. And uh not only watching videos of people who already speak 20 languages, but also finding somebody who's also a beginner and uh sharing the experiment sharing the experience or finding a good teacher, why not? I've had so many teachers before I started learning languages by myself. Um, this is totally normal that you would want guidance, uh, when you are a beginner. So Of course. So why not get get this guidance?

Um, but I think you you can do those two things at the same time, you know, learn uh learn at a language course, for example, with a teacher. And um, for example, watch videos of Steve Kaufman because uh those things really changed the way I look at language learning. And that made me believe that it is doable, that you can actually do it by yourself and succeed because I was watching those videos. And I had so many aha moments and I thought, wow, I've I've subconsciously been doing many of those things by myself. So they really work. And uh I got the confidence to to listen more, to to read more, to spend time with language more, and of course, I got the results.

So he really likes input, Steve. And generally just patience, I think are two of his his key like mantras if you will.

Absolutely. Yes.

He's like the anti-Benny in a way.

And uh, you know, he he's learning so fast now. At his age, he's learning faster than 95% of people a lot younger than him. So it just really shows us that it's a skill. And you can develop it over many, many years and keep getting better at at learning languages, at learning new languages. Yeah, for sure. I think I think he's been learning for so many decades that his brain works differently now, you know. Oh, yeah, for sure. Exactly.

So I think anybody who's a beginner, um, well, as a beginner, you cannot function this efficiently, probably. But over time, if you keep doing those things, your memory gets better. You get better at pronouncing things, you know, mimicking the pronunciation. And you get better at it get it communication and um, you get better at all those small aspects and you become a lot more uh efficient uh language learner and you also learn to have more fun. So it's everything a process.

Yeah, and fun is important, isn't it? I mean, not just in a way of like a blanket statement, but to put in so many hours, I mean, the estimates are what, 1000, 1500 hours to reach higher levels. Uh, just by random source, the Foreign Service Institute of America could take longer. Probably will. Uh, but that's a lot of time if you think about it.

I did the math on my German studies once. Uh, had had it for eight years in school. And I calculated that I only had about 300 classroom hours.

It's a journey that can possibly last forever. Look, I can tell you. Um, I'm working as a teacher as a as a language trainer for English and German now. And uh I'm learning things in German every day. Every day, I'm learning new things after 10 years in Germany and two master degrees and and It's just endless.

As long as you as you have fun doing it. So fun is a an integral part of course, because you would never be able to spend that much time if you didn't like it. If you didn't connect with you at a certain level. So I think that's one of the main things we need to do when we're starting, you know, find something about the language about the culture about the people who speak the language that that fascinates you. And uh, it it can help you big time. Uh, and if you don't find it automatically, I would probably spend time, you know, thinking about it and looking for those things. Because it can it can really uh, determine whether you will succeed or give up.

Yeah. And I mean culture, food, music, um, people you you admire who speak the language or nice people who speak the language you could, you know, make a tandem with or just anything. Basically, anything that, you know, evokes positive feelings. And then connect those feelings with the language. And um, turn it into more fun.

Right. And that's a very active process you said.

Say it again. That's a very active process.

That's an active process totally. Because uh you can just you will have challenges and you will have hard days anyways. So it it really it really helps. And um, I know this because so many people come to Germany now and they need to learn German language. And people struggle, for example, because they cannot they do not connect with the culture with the people. So this is the and and those people who do, those people who manage to find, you know, friends to talk to, to spend time with in Germany, those people succeed, um, faster.

So I would say find find people who like, find people who like and spend time with them and speak the language no matter, you know, if you make mistakes or not, totally make mistakes, but find the fun people, find the fun activities proactively. Yes. Go and look for them.

And change your attitude because you can always see the glass half full or half empty. And this is the same thing with what is going on in your language learning. You can see the things that do not work. Yeah. And there will always be things that do not work. But shift your attitude to what works, you know, shift to things that you like, activities you like, just celebrate small successes and always look back and you know, look look back at where you were uh a week ago, a month ago, half a year ago. And then you can definitely see the big picture you can see that you're moving forward all the time.

It's actually crazy powerful. Uh I use that example quite a lot actually because it's hard to explain just how powerful it is. Like uh for instance my Russian that I often talk about these days because it's I'm working on it.

Um like if you told me five years ago when I hadn't started it that I'd be able to read like Russian articles, watch Russian clips and follow conversation. Um I would just be like, what are you smoking, you know, that's how is that ever going to happen? And suddenly after, you know, quote unquote failing for four years at Russian, uh, I suddenly am at that point. So it's hard to explain or describe exactly how fascinating that feeling is.

Very true. And uh I thought of another thing yet again. You're running your own race, right? It's your own personal journey. Never compare yourself to to the people on YouTube, right? The people who are uh fluent in 20 languages. Do not do that because it is your journey. It is your race and you're working, you're learning at your own speed and your own speed of learning is fast enough.

So it's not about the guy who does it three times faster and you compare yourself to him and you feel frustrated. It's not about this. And then the question is, what if he can do it in one year and I can only do it in three years? Does this mean I should not even start?

Yeah. Of course not. Well, depends on what your reasons are. If you want to prove if you're only doing it to prove to that guy that you're as fast as he is then probably you shouldn't even start, but it's not the reason why you're starting, right? No. You're doing it for fun. You're doing it to to be able to explore a new culture, to to make new friends, to understand the world better. Everybody has their own reasons. So, it really does not matter how much time it will take you to get there. It is about the rewards that you can reap along the way, too. Because the the journey is probably as rewarding as the outcome, right? Right. The journey is the reward or some might say. Exactly. I agree with that. A lot.

But you also need to to to learn to see it that way, right? If you're only interested in the outcome. Like when am I going to be fluent? When am I going to be fluent? And look at your watch, you know. Uh, every hour. I remember when I was a kid I started working out. Uh, I was very very slim. I had zero muscles. And I remember I started working out with uh with dumbbells and I would go to the mirror every 30 minutes and look at me like those muscles are they growing yet? And uh, I think it's a good metaphor for language learning. Yeah. To not expect, do not go look at yourself in the mirror every day.

Yeah, but it's so tough, isn't it? Because if you don't see the progress, it's easy to get demotivated unless you have a really good attitude or a really good like mental state. Um, takes a lot of practice I think.

What helped me was uh when I got access to the internet and I watched videos of Steve Kaufman, for example, and other guys because in the pre-internet age, you were alone in your, you know, troubles, perceived troubles. But now you can connect to to, you know, the experiment the experience and wisdom of the whole universe. And you see everybody struggling. Everybody goes through the same things. And everybody has those self-defeating feelings once in a while, you know, everybody at their own level. And if a guy, for example, learns two times faster than you do, he also feels defeated a lot because those feelings of uh I'm I cannot do it. I'm not making progress. We all have those feelings.

So it's not even a matter of how fast you progress. It's a matter of your attitude and how you see yourself, your own progress and your capabilities, you know. Right. You can definitely work on that also consciously. You can practice that skill of shifting your attitude to how you are doing. And um, you can really develop that and have a lot more fun.

Right. I just it's so it's so tough, isn't it? Like to deprogram yourself in a way, but it is it is very important. It really is. Probably as rewarding as as learning the language, you know.

It's a process, it's another it's another skill and it also it can also take years. But it's extremely rewarding and um, if you learn to do it, you can also apply it to anything in your life, right? Uh yeah, change your attitude to anything to to whatever is happening in your life.

Yeah. We talked about affirmations earlier about how for instance if you keep saying that you are not going to learn French or you can't learn a language that will become your reality. Absolutely. Everything.

That is really tough. Like especially for me because like I'm a chronic, I don't know what to call it, like uh self-deprecating person because I feel like if I kind of if I I don't know how to to explain it, but if I if I if I present myself as terrible and I'm average, then I feel like I've over achieved, you know, I've done really well and everyone is like, wow, you're not as terrible as you said.

But that's not really the best way to do it, is it?

Well, I think you can take baby steps in this too, right? Like in learning languages, you take baby steps and shift in your attitude to um how good you are or how good you can be.

Um, I've seen many people learning languages with very, you know, aptitude and I remember one girl, uh, we studied, we did a master course together in in Germany. She also comes from Ukraine. Um, and she was she was really not very good. And uh it was a master degree in translation. Uh, so she was supposed to be extremely fluent in German by that time because she's been learning it for 10 years by then. And uh she was making awful mistakes.

And uh then it turned out that we got to work together in the same German office. So I could watch her development and how I could watch how her German improved over the years. And uh I thought she would never be fluent. And uh as the years passed, she got better and better. And then I came to the office once and I thought she was talking like a German native speaker, you know.

Yeah. And that example showed to me that anybody can really given the time perspective, given the time you spend with the language, speaking the language, listening to the language, staying in touch with the language, you can get extremely good, no matter how slow you seem to be a learner. Really. So now I say, definitely anybody can.

Right. Yeah, I agree with that. And I think that's that's no there's no reason not to believe that because it doesn't have a downside. If you believe you can do anything, okay, within reason, I'm not going to be an astronaut or anything. But if you if you believe you can do anything or almost anything, then that, I mean, what what's there to lose?

Absolutely. You know, there there's there's just I think that's the best.

But what other what things do you think like we talked about attitude. What other ways do you think people set themselves up for failure in language learning? Are there any other things people do consistently that you feel like is either objectively terrible or sort of sabotaging their own progress?

Um, it's both thoughts and actions. Um, I really enjoyed uh Lydia Machová's um, um, diagram. Um, that consisted of four parts to to successful language learning or to what successful language learners do and others don't. And those four pieces of the system were fun, frequency, quantity and system. Um, and the frequency and quantity were the crucial ones, I think. So people who do not progress, they just do not spend time with language. It's as easy as that. That is quite simple, yeah. That's simple but not easy, right? Right.

For some people, it seems easy to fix, but most people do not fix it, although they know it because they have maybe they do not believe in themselves as you were saying. Maybe they engage in self-sabotaging behavior. Yeah. But then again, the solution to this is know yourself, know how you function, know how you learn. If you don't have the willpower, if you cannot make yourself study or learn the language by yourself, if you cannot, you know, build those routines of spending time with the language daily, uh watching videos, reading blogs, whatever, then go and sign up for a course. If you need a teacher to give you homework and if this is how you learn, then totally do it.

Right. And do you think there's also an element of maybe maybe not like of motivation necessarily, but maybe there's a an underlying fear or procrastination that's that that can sometimes rule us like, uh, for instance, I know that I should be doing more tutoring lessons because first of all, they're quite fun and they're quite helpful and they're very like available. I could book a Spanish tutoring lesson, uh, now, like five minutes from now. So there are really no excuses for me not doing any more lessons, but there's some kind of block, some kind of mental block.

I mean, it's not because I want to use myself as an example all the time, but I feel like I feel like that that is something that people struggle with. This kind of um, I guess it's a confidence thing. It's it's like using the language that you know, even though you know you're terrible or at least you know you're, you know, a beginner or something. Like when you started a couple of months or maybe even a year and you finally get to meet that speaker of the language but you kind of you completely freeze up. Like what what kind of underlying psychological problems are at play there?

There there could be many, you know,

Have you ever had something like that where you were like scared or like procrastinated on on doing something that you actually found funny and and productive and helpful?

Yes, of course. And it really can be anything. And uh I think what could help is talking to a coach, for example. That helped me talking to another person or having somebody who could listen to you or maybe writing a journal. All those things help understand what is going on in your head. And uh just uh break the the vicious cycle, right?

Yeah, I guess that one I mean one good uh or one uh one step is to realize that I'm not alone because you just said that you also suffered from it sometimes. So that's that is very helpful. Uh for me at least and I think that people listening to this will also find some comfort in in the fact that if they are struggling with anything, it's definitely not because they're stupid or because they're, you know, special or anything. We all have these kind of ups and downs all the time. But again, that's with that's not language learning, that's just life. Like some some days you feel amazing and you feel like you could never be happier. And other days you're like struggling to get out of bed.

That this is also part of self-discovery that is so rewarding because some things you would do better than others in language learning, probably. And some things would be your weaker links, right? And maybe you would be scared of things other people find totally normal. But this is not the reason to to to get those self-defeating thoughts. It's just a new thing you learn about yourself. And you just accept it and work with it. And um, wherever you are, you just realize, okay, I'm at this point right like right now, this is where I start and work your way from there, taking baby steps.

And uh you were talking about scary things in language learning, right? Yeah. like meeting a person, a speaker of a language you've been learning and then you cannot approach, right? Because of fear, you get paralyzed. Yeah, exactly. Or you can't find any words in that language, even though you've studied thousands of them. Yes, I've been I I I've had a lot of experience with that because you know, when I started traveling, uh, I traveled solo. So my experience relied on um connecting with people and talking to people from all over the world all the time. And I started being scared because I'm an introvert, 100%. I'm definitely, uh I haven't been comfortable uh in approaching unknown people, you know.

But over the years, over the two and a half years of traveling, it turned into one of the most communicative people you would find on my travels. I think Benny Lewis talked about it, too. He said the same thing that when he started traveling, when he started learning languages, he was an introvert and he was scared out of his mind to approach a person and, you know, strike up a conversation. So I think this goes to show that those things change over time. And uh you can come from somebody who's extremely scared by taking baby steps and uh, you know, getting out of the comfort zone a bit by bit, bit by bit. Of course. Uh, you can get so far that you can not even imagine.

So that's another point that's often mentioned like the comfort zone. Yeah. But he uses those words, but this is definitely true. It is definitely true that this is how you get more flexible. You start slow, you accept where you are today and not compare yourself with others who are successful. You don't compare yourself to experts. And uh, because you also, you do not know where they started. You do not know what they went through and how much, how many years and how much effort it took them to get there. You don't see everything. Yes. Exactly.

So accept where you are, um, and then take a decision to stretch yourself a little bit. Uh, be it uh talking to to a new person or speaking more or, you know, maybe you want to start writing in the language and you're scared because you do not know how to. And then you can say today, tomorrow, I will write 50 words. You don't need to start with 1000 words. Right. Of course. Or you can start with a 10-minute conversation. Because what, you know, you just set your first goal that seems reasonably doable for you. You know, that you would say, okay, this is scary, but I think I can handle it. Or this seems hard, but I think it's doable. I think I could make it. And then do it and and then first of all, celebrate it, feel proud of yourself, you know. And then you build it up from there. And then on the second day, you can write maybe 70 words and not 50. Of course. Maybe you can talk for 20 for 15 minutes and not 10. And this is where everybody starts. And um, yeah, basically this is how it works.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I just I've just thinking, you know, I just sitting here thinking like, hmm. Yeah, it's it's deep. It's deep in a way. Again, it's it's it's not it's not difficult to understand. It's just the the ramifications that that I find is is kind of you know, what I mean? It's it's easy to explain but it's not easy to apply like we talked about before. Like you can do it step by step.

But I feel like we live in such a like a uh I guess social media and like the low attention spans and stuff has really polluted our brains to the to the point where this idea of somebody learning a language, at least if you follow this podcast or if you follow anyone on social media that also does languages. It's going to be impossible for you not to compare yourself maybe more than once a day to someone else or anyone, really. Um, so it's really a monumental effort, I feel like, to to slow down your thoughts and say, okay, well, it's it's kind of a meditation practice, isn't it? where you say I accept the sort of noise in my head. I accept that there will be, you know, uh disruptions to the lake. It's not going to be perfectly calm all the time. So I I you kind of accept them and let them pass in a way instead of noticing them.

Um, but of course, this is like anything else, it's also a practice, you know, you get better at you get better at dealing with getting better if that makes any sense. Like it takes years. It's another skill that is extremely rewarding and applicable to pretty much anything in your life. And it's extremely hard just with any skill, especially when you start. But it's it's working and uh you just maybe stop looking at the Facebook pages of other people, you know, Yeah, I guess. I mean, I I Turn off the TV, you know, stop watching ads. It's a gradual process. You get you get just happier, more grounded, and in the end you get more successful because if you terrorize yourself and if you torture yourself with those comparisons and thoughts, I should be at a different place. I should be more successful. I should be learning faster. Uh and it doesn't help you. Don't get better because of it these these thoughts. You just get miserable. Right. So gradually you learn to switch those thoughts to more productive thoughts, maybe.

Do you

I mean, and not that you have to give any sort of straight recommendation, but how do people fit those sort of I don't know if I want to call it meditation, it's definitely it's definitely a similar kind of uh process. But how do people fit in like active, I guess what I mean, do you when you say you need to switch your thoughts, we talked about that a lot today.

Do you do you do you like sit down and and like try to create some kind of not quiet, maybe, but very calm environment where you can reflect on your achievements and your dreams and language learning? Or is it just like trying to tied it in with all your thoughts in general? Like do you do specific timeouts, should people do that?

Whatever works, right? Uh definitely it helps to spend some time by yourself. Uh well, there are introverts, there are extroverts. I'm an introvert. So I definitely need a lot of time for reflecting and spending time alone and turning off the noise and all the distractions and just uh um.

Is there a risk of doing too too much of the good thing? Like can you overthink your language learning so much that you just think about it and not actually do anything?

I don't know. I'm just not saying I'm not talking about language learning only. I'm talking about anything in life. No, you shouldn't you shouldn't overthink uh language learning. You should enjoy language learning and spend time with the language. But it generally we're talking about those the practice of mindfulness. Yes. Exactly. And uh whatever works, it's also something you can develop over over years and that would probably not work very well in the first months. But you just catch yourself thinking negatively about anything happening in your life. You just learn to catch yourself in the middle of the the process of thinking negatively and then you say, oh, here I go again.

That's that's fun. Yeah, and awareness is also a word you've used a lot and and something that I've noticed it is it's really important and it is really a long process. Like I remember like uh this is a long going a long way back when I was 18. I didn't really want a normal job. So I thought I was going to be a professional poker player. Uh which sort of happened later, but that's a a side story, but um, so I was trying to to win at the games and the the game theory itself was pretty simple. Like you could read like a 100-page book and you'd basically have a winning strategy because people were terrible at poker back then. But the problem was when you you're also playing against yourself. So, you know, it's a game of chance to a certain extent, but there's also obviously a huge player advantage that can be had. But if you start to get upset about how the cards fall, like basically random series of incidents, then it affects you. It clouds your judgment. Like emotions are really bad at in in in a game like that because you just need objective logic and reason. You need math basically. And you need to just evaluate all the situations.

So I I had problems with that in controlling my emotions, maybe due to a sort of a troubled teenage year period, but I uh I picked up a book called like the mental game of poker or something like didn't really have any poker strategy in it, but was just basically all about uh how to calm your the inner lake. I don't know where that saying comes from, but that's basically and that's where I started doing it and it's taken me, you know, 10 years, over 10 years now to even remotely have any improvements in that area. Well, well, not improvements, but it's taken me so long to understand what it really means. Like for me, now, it means like, okay, if I'm walking home with my my umbrella and it starts raining, there's no point in getting upset about it because I can't change it and I can only do better in the future. So getting upset about it now doesn't make any sense. Same with traffic jams or all that stuff. But me, 18 years old, would definitely say that.

And I think and I think the relation to language learning is similar. It's like, um, getting upset about not knowing, I don't know, the gerund in in Russian, which is just impossible. Um, is is doesn't make do any good, you know. It's like, oh, I made another mistake. No, that doesn't really do me any good, but looking at the progress that I've made does. So it's such a long process and it's it's really exciting that way.

And now I'm trying to apply it just to give a another example. Uh I just started this new job, which is in a call center. So it's kind of a, you know, some people will call it, you know, entry level kind of slave jobs where people are in and out every month. And I know there are lots of people out there who who probably like a job like that. So I'm not dissing it, but um, you know, it's minimum wage and it's, you know, people scream at you over the phone. And I can say like, okay, this guy's screaming at me because I made a mistake or because it's my fault or because I should have done something. Or you can say, okay, the guy is angry because he his holiday's been inconvenienced for some reason, you know. And if you have 20 calls in a row, it's really easy to get emotionally affected.

And um, also the job itself. Like some of my colleagues are like, I hate my job. I can't wait for the weekend. I try to turn it around and say like, how much can I enjoy Monday morning? Because if I can enjoy Monday morning, every other day is just going to be amazing, you know what I mean?

It's always your choice. You're very right. You have that extreme power inside of your head, in your mind, right? You just need to learn to apply it and then it changes everything, everything what is happening. And this is very true. Um, as you were saying, it takes years and maybe 10 years. Yeah, it's taken ages for me to even get close because I would do the same. I would like be I can't wait to have be time off. I you know, even as an employee, I would be I would be okay for maybe the first period of time, but then I would kind of stagnate because I would maybe it's because I had terrible management or whatever, but the way I see it now is like, I can either do amazing at work or I can do average at work. But I'm going to be there anyways. I might as well do my best, you know. There's no I don't lose anything by doing a better job. I on the contrary, you know, I might get me promoted faster. I might get me bonuses. I might get, you know, people might notice what I'm doing. Um, so the same is true with language learning, isn't it?

I have have an example uh concerning language learning. What what helped me was yet another video of Steve Kaufman that uh I watched many years ago, where he was explaining how the brain works when we're learning languages about those neural connections. And he was explaining that it takes time for those neural connections to to to be created and then to get stronger and thicker. So it's a process that is happening in your brain. Yeah. And it takes time. So there is no need to feel frustrated about it because you're probably doing your best anyways, right? If you're spending time with the language well, if you're not, maybe there's for for improvement, definitely. But if you already are spending a lot of time with the language and uh those grammar structures do not sit yet, or if you're still forgetting those words, there is no need to be frustrated. It's not about you even, right? There are processes that are happening naturally in your brain with the speed, with the, you know, with the fastest speed available. Yeah. So when I realized this, I just took it so much easier, you know, I stopped worrying that much. And uh that that negativity uh dissolved, you know. I just said I have my own speed of learning. These are processes that are happening. You know, my job is to just continue to spend time with the language and have as much fun as possible doing that. And the rest of things will take care of themselves. Yeah, you know.

It's like having faith in the system, but that goes back to what we were talking about, you know. The uh belief like if you believe that you can do it, then it's not a matter of, can I or will I, it's just how, you know, how will I make this happen. You're very right. Yes, belief in the system. So, I realized it's not about my lack of willpower, you know. I was trying to force those knowledge inside my head. This explanation it it it rang a bell to me so much. It connected so well. And that just, you know, here's the system, it's laid out for you and it works. Just spend time with the language long enough, have fun. As I'm an independent language learner, right? It's my responsibility to find materials that are enjoyable for me, right? Yeah. This is this is what I can influence. I can influence, um, not doing things that are boring. If something gets boring, just find a new blog, find a new video, find a new TV series. This is what I can influence, right? Uh this is what I'm in charge of. And have fun. Right. Do not let yourself get uh demotivated or frustrated. If if the book is too hard, I'm not trying to force that book into me, right? There are enough other books. Yeah. That match my level today. Or if it's a book about something I I do not care about, I will not I will not force it into myself because we're in the 21st century with the internet. Yeah. Just find another book, find another thing. And keep yourself motivated and uh yeah, and the system is working. And the system will will do will do what it should. And it does.

Yeah, it's like if you buy like an SL book or teach yourself. I mean, there's obviously people who have used it to great success. So the system works. You just have to use it if you like it. And if you don't like it, find something else. Absolutely. As we were saying, what Steve tells you to do, or what Benny tells you to do, it's good, but test it, you know, if it works for you, if it's fun. Yeah. And those SL books, they're very different. There was an SL book that I liked and I enjoyed, and there was another one that Yeah, there's some different series. There's like the old ones from the was it 70s or something? And then they made like new versions in in in the last 10 years or so and some are reprints as well. So even within that, and you, you know, with the TGSL for colloquial series, they might have a a sort of a pattern. So you if you know if you like one of them, you're likely to like the others, but there's no guarantee and the same goes for Michelle Thomas. Like, okay, Michelle Thomas, they they did the original series, but then they hired new people for for the new languages like uh Russian, for instance. And a lot of people like the Russian version and then they say the Arabic one is not so good. So, you know, it it's all it's all about uh trial and error, I feel like.

And to me, the best method is the one that I just do without any pain in a way, it's a strong word, but like if I can just open a an app or something and I enjoy doing it, that's a good app for me. It's not about if it's the fastest app, or is it the best app, or objectively, or the flashiest app? If I can do it a lot, and it has any sort of basis in language learning, then that is my favorite app, you know, the one I can do the most. If that's watching movies for you, that's probably also valuable.

I think there is so much to take from that that we're all unique. We have our own background, our own experience, our own hobbies, our own values. This will this will all influence our language learning style. So as you get spent more and more time learning languages, you find out more about how you do it, you know. Yeah. Create, you develop your own unique language learning style that would be totally unique. And it would work for you, you know. Yeah. This is this is amazing because you can really learn so much about yourself as you're learning languages. Just, uh, you know, you just need to keep experimenting, right? See what works, what doesn't. Exactly. And be attentive and just, hm, it doesn't feel good. I'm bored today. And like, why? What is happening? And then you just discover a new thing about yourself that this thing doesn't work for you, or this teacher, or maybe everybody says this is a great teacher and he has, you know, perfect references and everybody respects him. But you just don't doesn't just doesn't feel right for you. Right. Then okay, cool. I discovered a new thing for myself. I would not stick to that teacher, to that course just because everybody thinks it's cool. It's not cool for me. Right. So it's uh it's really amazing.

Yeah. And uh I mean I I could keep on going with this topic forever, but I feel like uh I feel like we've we've come around or at least my brain is is completely like uh just mulling it over what we've been talking about the last hour or so. So just wanted to to wind down a little bit and and um to say, you know, thank you so much for for coming on and and and thank you for for being a bit of a coach to me as well.

Kris, it's been a great pleasure. I'm really happy that we finally made it happen. Um, yeah, it's been it's been really nice talking to you.

Likewise. I hope your your fears were banished about this uh this recording.

Totally banished. Great. All right, talk to you soon.

Talk to you soon. Bye. Bye.

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