Gareth Popkins from howtogetfluent.com

Hey everyone, I'm so happy to be back with the actual fluency podcast. I know it's been a couple of months off the air, and I have to apologize for that, but I had some things going on in my life. As some of you have heard, especially if you're part of the email club, where I send out weekly emails about what's going on on actual fluency and in my language learning.

So for those who don't know, I was in Hungary living there for about a year and a half, learning Hungarian, and yeah, just living there like living in any other country. And by the end of it, I had gone to Canada for a month for the Montreal Language Festival, and when I came back to Hungary, I didn't really find a suitable living arrangement, so I had to live in a quite a terrible hotel, and that's when I made the decision to actually come back to Denmark to sort out my business, you know, make it a bit more official, get the all the paperwork fixed, and yeah, become a proper citizen because it's not that I don't believe you could do it abroad, it's just so much easier at home because, you know, they know who you are, you have the citizenship already. You're kind of entitled to some kind of assistance and help. Not necessarily financially, but something like social security and stuff like that.

So I'm back in Denmark and it's taken me a little while to actually recover from that. I came back at the end of November. I told you on the email that I was going to kind of record some episodes and get ready for a new season in December and also of course holidays. So we're back, it's January, and it's time for new language goals. It's time for new language adventures. A new year has begun.

For me, I'm extremely excited to keep going from where I left off last year. I've been working extremely hard. Okay, not extremely hard. You guys know me. Um, but I've been working quite a lot on making actual fluency more consistent, more coherent as a brand, and also increasing the income to the point where I can begin to slowly sustain a lifestyle off of it. It's not exactly a full-time income yet, but hopefully I can make that happen soon so I don't have to worry to death about making ends meet enough to, um, you know, pay for food and rent and stuff like that.

So in that breath, I just want to thank you all for supporting the site and also, you know, just by listening, you're actually supporting the site. And uh, some somebody asked me, I forget the name now, um, why I don't talk more about ways you can support the show. And you know, for me it's just I'm not too comfortable asking for support in that way. I I'd much rather the people figured it out, that, okay, well, is there any way we can support the show, if they want to. You know, I don't want to be one of those people who say, oh, unless I get this amount of money every month, I will never make another podcast. No, of course not, you know.

Um, if you want to support the show, I do have a Patreon page, and I really appreciate the people who are supporting. You know, shout out to you guys for being the pillars and the foundation of of the inspiration that drives me because when I was off the air, I got a lot of emails, a lot of messages asking, is the show gone? Where what's going on, Chris? Are you okay? Have you died? And you know, I'm really I really appreciate that that kind of that you care about me and the show enough to to ask me that. So, just know that whatever you do, the reason that this show is going is is because of you, because you push me to keep going, to keep producing, to perform as well, because sometimes you you might not think of it, but doing interviews well is is kind of like performing a music number or, you know, writing a book. It's it's an art form that sometimes is taken for granted, and I certainly did it myself. And then people told me, oh, you're so good at it. And, you know, I'm not sure that's true, but basically, it's it's quite a lot of work, and I appreciate all the support I get, and especially, you know, the encouraging messages. I really appreciate those because it really shows me that what I'm doing is worthwhile and it's of use to you. You know, somebody emailed me the other day saying that whenever she felt a little bit demotivated, she would listen to another episode and and it would help her get back on track. And, you know, there's really no better no better use for the podcast that I can think of, and there's really no greater gift for me than to be able to help you guys with your language learning goals.

And, uh, you know, I don't want to take 20 minutes per episode, but since this is the first episode, this is why the introduction is a little bit longer than usual. But the last thing I just wanted to touch on is the 2017 agenda of polyglot events because of course, you guys are probably interested in what's going on going on around the world, and where can I go and practice my languages? Where can I go and meet like-minded language learners to basically network with, to make new friendships, to be inspired from, which is why I go to these events.

And there are three big main events, and there have been since last year. And the of course the biggest one and the most famous one is the polyglot conference created by Richard Simcott and Alex Rawlings. Last year it was in Thessaloniki, Greece, which was a great time. I I think the city for me was a bit of a, mm, okay, you know, the food was great, but I the city was a little bit run down, and it had a a bit of a limited scope of what you can do. There was a bit of history, a bit of a few museums, and uh, lots of cafes and stuff. But for me, I think it's probably more of a summer city. I'd like to see what it is like in the summer, assuming it's not too hot, which it probably is, and then I wouldn't like it anyway.

But the other two events are the Language Festival in Montreal, which was started last year and was called North American Polyglot Symposium, and I'm really excited they changed the name because that name was too long and too confusing. And uh, it's coming back, and I'm really really hope I can go. Last year I was lucky enough to go in part because the they asked me to speak there, so some of the travel costs were subsidized. And uh, everything kind of lined up that I was able to go and stay there. But we'll see what happens this year. If I'm able to go or not, now that Actual Fluency is a registered business in Denmark, I will of course be able to take advantage of that and have some of the cost subsidized there in the taxes instead. But of course, it is expensive to go across the pond, and so that's probably the most uncertain one for me. But it's also the one I'd love to go to the most because I think I really love North America and, you know, Montreal is just such a lovely city with lots of different culture and lots of experiences really. I was really pleased to be there for a whole month, and I didn't even touch the surface of what the city had to offer. So, for me, definitely a highlight of the year would be going to uh, the Montreal Language Festival, which is at the end of August.

And I forgot to mention that the Polyglot Conference, which changes its location every year, is going to be in Iceland in Reykjavik, of course, and that's at the end of October. So there should be a good chance of seeing the Northern Lights. And which is obviously going to be super cool. And I hope to make it there also. I I would say I'm slightly less excited about Iceland than I am about Canada, but as somebody pointed out recently, I am a bit of a city person, and, you know, if you're if you really like nature, then I'm sure Iceland would be an a ridiculous experience. And also because Iceland is kind of connected to Denmark, I am interested in going there. But I must say if you had if you put a gun to my head and say, you could choose between Canada or Iceland, I would probably prefer to go to Canada, uh, for this.

The final big event, you know, there of course, lots of small events around the year, is the Polyglot Gathering, which has been taking place in Berlin for the last four years, and now for the first time they're going to move it to a different country. They're going to move it to Slovakia, where it's going to be in Bratislava, of course. And they're going to be helped by Lydia Machova, who is going to be on the podcast actually next week, and uh, we talk a little bit about it there. Uh, but yeah, those are the three main events. And of course, there are smaller events around the world as well. And if you have any ideas for events, just uh, give me a message and I'll I'll share them here on the podcast.

So without all that out of the way, I'm just going to say thank you again for your patience and thank you for your unwavering support. And I am really excited to be bringing you this episode and a whole new season for a whole new year, so that we can all learn the languages we dream of, and meet see the places that we want to go to and just have a great time because at the end of the day, that's what matters, really. It's not whether you know 20 or 10 languages or just five or three, like me, uh, it's about having fun, and it's about socializing, and it's about accomplishing what is important to you, and not to everyone else. And it's not about some arbitrary number on a, let's say, a conference badge or how many flags you can put on your chest, you know. That's that's not what it's about. It's about socializing, it's about culture, it's about getting to know other people, it's about having fun, I think, first and foremost.

So with that in mind, you know, please enjoy this episode and the season. And if you have, as always, if you have any feedback, suggestions, comments, especially people you'd like to hear from, you know, people you'd like me to invite onto the podcast to talk to, please send me an email or a message via the website, or you can send it to chris@actualfluency.com. And uh, I will take a look at it and do my best. So thank you so much, and and enjoy the episode.

Today I'm happy to welcome Gareth Popkins from howtogetfluent.com. Gareth is one of my good friends and I've been meeting him at polyglot events around the world, and he's been making some great videos, kind of journaling his own efforts to learn a couple of not so usual languages. So definitely check out howtogetfluent.com after listening to this episode.

But for now, let's get into the episode where we talk about the polyglot events, the community itself, and Gareth's experience with learning languages throughout the years. For now, I'd just like to welcome you onto the show and say that it's it's a great pleasure to finally have uh I've gotten you here because we've been talking about doing this for quite a while, and you were a, what can I say, a cameo guest. Is that a correct In Budapest. Was that Yeah, you were sort of a a fleeting a fleeting guest for for a comment or two about the polyglot workshops, which we had a lot of fun with and and ultimately changed my life because I stayed in Budapest, which was unexpected. And uh, it changed your life as well because you had a a great workshop, I know. So Gareth, why don't you start by telling us a a bit about your life, how did you get started in in in languages? When did that passion come up for the first time?

Uh, when I was very little, before I remember, we had a French au pair live in the house when I was about two or three years old, and she apparently used to speak to me in French. And my mom always used to ascribe my subsequent enthusiasm for languages, uh, to this early influence, even though I didn't, at least consciously, remember anything of that.

The other element early on was awareness of the Welsh heritage on my father's side. So that when we went down sometimes on holiday to Wales from where we lived in Yorkshire in the north of England, it was a completely monolingual English environment I grew up in. I would occasionally hear uh, distant cousins speaking Welsh. I knew also that my uh, father's father had spoken Welsh. I never knew him, but um, he had spoken Welsh, uh, and although my father grew up in England as as an English speaker.

So, these sort of languages were flying around. I wasn't particularly good at them at school, it's a familiar story, I think. So I I just studied French, and I I dropped it as quickly as I could when I was 16. But then, funnily enough, uh, I think during my six form, so the two years before university, when I was 17, 18, I started almost straight away to get interested in languages again. And uh, then I got the language bug.

And I think when I was an undergraduate studying history, um, you know, I was already looking rather wistfully to those who were studying modern languages. I started to work again a lot on my French. Uh, I started to teach myself Welsh, and I made sure that I chose doctoral work in an area which meant I would have to and would have a chance to learn languages. And that's how I got into Russian studies. And uh, I went off to live in Germany as well when I was a doctoral student, and in Finland. So, um, I've had a very rich sort of uh, time with languages later on. But it was all really uh, on the hoof, uh, and not, you know, beyond French up to age 16, not part of my formal education.

But I don't know what it is. I think for me, I think partly for us as kids in in uh, the town where I lived, foreign languages were really almost a theoretical thing. We knew that they existed, but mass culture was Anglo-American. There weren't really people around speaking other languages, apart from you know, the kid whose whose parents owned the Chinese takeaway in the town. So I didn't grow up somewhere like in London with many, many languages around. So it was all rather theoretical, which made motivation, I suppose, slightly more difficult for many people.

I was lucky that my parents were taking me abroad, we were going to Scandinavia on holidays, we were going to France, we went to to the Balkans as well, Yugoslavia, as it was then. Uh, so and I I was always fascinated to hear the languages, um, but it it didn't really connect to what was happening in school. And the other thing, I think, simply was, you know, you weren't seeing results. When I would then go to France on holiday, I was far too shy to speak. Uh, and not only that, but I couldn't even if I'd been much more confident, there wasn't much I could actually say. And I think that has to go down partly to to the teaching methods and the way that languages were taught were taught in school.

I also started as a first-year undergraduate to teach myself Welsh. I did a summer school in Welsh, and then, uh, when I graduated from the then I put that aside for the second half of my studies to focus on on the history. Uh, and then I I took uh uh what was called then a year out, what is now known as a gap year in England, at least. And I went to Wales and I focused entirely on learning Welsh. I did an intensive summer course and then I lived with a Welsh family, uh, in West Wales, in Aberystwyth, and got fluent in my ancestral language, if you like. And that was great experience. That was the first time that I felt that I got the the buzz of actually being able to speak a foreign language.

And during that time, too, that year, I I was applying to go back to Oxford, which is my university, to register in a Russian history for Russian history postgraduate work, um, which would become my my what they call a DPhil or PhD doctorate in Russian history. Uh, and I did that in the full knowledge I was going to have to learn Russian at least read Russian very quickly. Um, and so I uh, I was doing that on the side as well during the second half of my time in Wales. So it was all a bit a bit chaotic.

And I arrived back in Oxford. I had a couple of very uh, inspiring uh, advisors to the professors there uh, who were very enthusiastic linguists and helped me and really encouraged me, and I started German as well. And then I was able to almost, if you like, play the system, uh, in that I managed to use the Erasmus scheme to get eight months in Freiburg in Germany. And I, because where I was then I was using printed sources at that stage. It didn't really matter where I was sitting. So, uh, that scheme enabled me to register as a postgrad in in Freiburg without having to do the language exam, because my German wouldn't have been good enough for that. And I spent eight months there. And, um, got really quite fluent in German by the end.

And then at the end of that, um, I went off to I went off to Russia for a year, and that was my main archival year. And that was an exciting year. Uh, that was actually the year just after the the coup back in 1991. It's a long time ago now. Um, and um, the Soviet Union ceased to exist while I was there in effect in in at the end of 1991. Ukraine became independent, there were price reforms. It was a very exciting time, quite a stressful time for Russians. Uh, but also a time of opening up, and what now looks like very much very naive optimism about the future on on both sides, I think. Um, so I had a wonderful year there doing the archival research and hanging living with a Russian hall of residence, hanging out with the young young people. Um, and um, yeah, so that's that's how it went.

And then the following year, uh, I went to Finland. I got another scholarship to go to Finland. This was uh, to continue my doctoral work to process all the archival material, using the brilliant Slavic library, which is part of Helsinki University. So that's when I started dabbling in a little Finnish.

And in the meantime, then luckily, for me, my one of my supervisors had left Oxford and become professor in Heidelberg. So I went back in uh, this was now in '93. Uh, he said, oh, you can come. By this stage the money was running out. I'd sort of exhausted the grant system, and I still wasn't finished with my research, and I was writing it up. And he said, oh, well, you can come and work for me as a research assistant in Germany. So like a shot I went back to Germany. This time I took the the language exam and and properly matriculated in Heidelberg, and I lived there for two and a half years, uh, finishing the thesis. He had a job for me for a year as a part-time job, which I did. I also started teaching English, I worked as a waiter. Uh, and I was generally becoming financially quite self, uh, self-sufficient.

And then as I was finishing the thesis, um, I was quite lucky again in the timing that I managed to get a post as an as as what's called a lecturer in the British system and assistant professor in the University of Wales in Aberystwyth, teaching Russian history, European history, through the medium of Welsh. So, uh, so I then spent the next five years up to the the new the new millennium as we can say, doing that. So I had a a fantastic time really when I was able to take my first my French forward, learn Welsh, and then Russian and German living in living in those countries. I had some time in Finland, I was dabbling a little in other languages too. And progressing my history career at the same time.

Uh, there's that, which can be done very quickly almost on the plane as it were. But then there's also, if you're going for a longer period with the intention of working on the language, there is an argument for getting up through the elementary level, almost to the sort of what's called the A2 level, of course, on the European common frame of reference, to the border with the the intermediate B levels, so that you really do hit the ground running. That would be perfect, yeah.

Uh, yes. Of course, that's not always that's sometimes a lot easier said than done. When you relocate to a new country, uh, unless you're going, uh, on a corporate package, uh, as I was when I went back to Russia later on, when maybe get on to that as a lawyer, you know, 10 years after my first experience. Or you're going, of course, as a student, when everything is looked after for you, you've got a lot of hassle. You've got the bureaucracy, you must have experienced this in Budapest. You've got to find accommodation. And these are actually all wonderful learning opportunities, frustrating as they will be at the time, when things go wrong, you can't get the internet and so on. But if you've got enough language actually to be having all these experiences in the target language, that is a wonderful thing, and that language is going to stick, and it's language that you really need. But to do that, obviously you've got to be, uh, you've got to be a more than the phrasebook level when you arrive, because nobody feels confident about signing a lease, uh, you know, or paying over money when when they don't understand what's going on. And you just, Right. Is that make sense?

But um, the languages, uh, the main uh, language I'm working at now is the Basque language. Um, and, um, I had been to the Basque country several times for other reasons, mainly to do with, um, also with the language revival movement through connections and friends in Wales, but not actually to learn Basque. I took part in what's called the Korrika, which is a mass-sponsored run for the language, which is held in the Basque country every two years. So, I had seen the country, thought it was a cool place, interesting, linguistically fascinating because that language is not related to any other, it's an isolate. So, I'd been on several short trips. I'd had my appetite whetted, um, and then I started to learn on my own, using Skype, using all the sort of methods that that uh, you'll be familiar with. Um, with the textbook, working with the teacher, setting goals, accountability, everything I could.

Uh, but then last summer I did a an intensive one-month course, which was an attempt to replicate, if you like, going to live in the country, but for a shorter period. Um, still still a long period, of course. Most people can't take a month. Um, and, um, but that was, you know, to go and do to do a course, so not just not just turning up in in the country, which is more or less what happened for me in Germany and in in Russia. Um, so, uh, so and I have also just done a course. I've just been to Indonesia for the first time. I've done a one-week course in Indonesian, which is much closer to what you're talking about, you know, the phrasebook phrasebook, there's not much you can do in a week in a way. But in a way there's a lot you can do in a week.

I was worried that, you know, 20 years on, I wouldn't be able to hack it in class, because I was used to much more independent study. I thought I would find it too boring and too structured. But actually I found in the Basque country, um, although it was quite a structured course and quite traditional in its approach, um, you you know, I had to be there. And the very fact that you have to be there, uh, can sometimes help. Uh, you tune in, sometimes you're too tired, but it's being thrown at you, and some of it sticks. So I don't think group lessons are necessarily the most effective way of learning, uh, but I think they can be useful as part of a of a portfolio of tools that you have.

I also do, uh, I have been doing weekly night classes in Basque in London. Uh, again, they're not particularly efficient because, uh, uh, um, I'm tired after work, uh, but they're good for the social side almost, which is also important, building my social life with the community here, because there are wider social events connected with them, talking practice, meals, and so on. Uh, and uh, you are hearing other voices, not just my online teachers. Uh, you're hearing explanations. You know, even the the the usual objection to lessons is you're held back by the slowest person. Uh, if that's not you, which of course uh, you know, you it's sometimes useful to hear things explained that you thought you knew, because maybe actually that will reinforce or actually, oh, well, it wasn't quite how I thought it was. It was after all. So, uh, so I I think language they provide they have a role, they have a role.

The key thing is always, I think everybody says this, don't they, uh, quite rightly so, that you mustn't expect the teacher can't learn for you. Right. So, the teachers can make a big difference, but at the end of the day, you must not abdicate your own responsibility. And you've got to make sure that you're actually not marginalized in the class, that you're speaking, that you're asking questions as well. That's a good way to sort of intervene politely. Uh, you know, respecting the balance of the chemistry of the group, but um, So I I think probably in in the Basque country, we're doing six hours a day. Uh, I I I did it for a month. I if I go again, I would only, I think, go for two weeks because you You used six hours a day for every every work day. Yes, and we did five hours on a Saturday, so it was quite hardcore. Pretty intense. It's really intense. Yes. I think that um uh uh that I I do enjoy studying on my own, too, and I think that is also can be extremely efficient. So I think the balance wasn't quite right for me. But for that time, it was a good thing. And certainly my Basque is a lot better now than it was when I went.

Uh, that uh, yeah, go to that language class, but you're going to need to supplement that with uh, two or three half-hour Skype sessions, language exchanges a week with exposure, uh, to the language, listening to media, uh, simplified texts, perhaps, so that you're not overwhelmed at first, and not just passively but trying to note things down, snippets that you can understand, trying to repeat them, talk about them. Everything has to, you have to make as interactive as possible. Yeah. Because you need to be producing a language, don't you? And that's hard, it hurts, it makes you feel stupid. It's slow. Make mistakes. And you have to do a lot of it. But with the right, you know, uh, uh, it can also be a lot of fun because you can feel a lot of progress if if you're working efficiently effectively, actually, early on. You you do make quite a steep early steep early progress. Yeah, enjoy that. Because that's not going to last. No. No, no. What you're what you're trying to do is, hey, you know, I don't care if I make mistakes, I just want, wow, I, you know, I'm communicating in some sort of Basque, some sort of pigeon Basque for me. Um, later on, of course, then you're, you know, you're hard on yourself because you are making those mistakes. But initially, you just want to get off the ground, you know. It's a sort of the space rocket analogy. Uh, and that takes a lot of fuel up. Yeah.

Uh, but it can be difficult to, you know, we can get wrapped up into this, oh, I want to travel, I want to experience new places and so on, particularly, uh, when you're you're younger, you're just leaving home and so on. Uh, and that's great going to see the world if you're lucky enough to be able to do that. Uh, but if for other reasons you can't, as you say, that there the whole world is is at our at our doorstep. Yeah. locally. Um, if we only just open our eyes and our ears. Right.