Amir Ordabayev: Why being lazy is great

Alright, we're back with another episode of The Actual Fluency Podcast and another edition of the learner profile series, where we take a look at language learners' life and how they got into languages and all the tips, secrets, aha moments, funny stories, anything that we can think of along the way. And today I'm joined by Amir Odubaev. Welcome to the show, Amir. How are you doing today?

Uh, doing well, Kris. Thanks for having me.

Fantastic. So this is the learner profile, so we want to get to know you a lot more. So, can you take us back to when you first got into language learning? Go as far back as you need, and just tell us, you know, what started that hobby of yours?

Uh, yeah, I was born in 1989, in Almaty. Well, back in the day where when USSR existed. And, uh, yeah, uh, technically I'm supposed to have two mother tongues. Since I was born in Almaty, I I'm I'm kinda supposed to speak Kazakh and Russian at the same level. And, uh, up until I was, I think, three, four years old, I was put in artificially, I was put artificially in Kazakh speaking environment. So my parents had this idea, so I I should if if I don't end up speaking it like like a native at at C2 level at at the very advanced level, at least I should have some some basics or some passive understanding.

Very interesting, very interesting. And did you did you get back to Kazakh again at some point or?

Well, I I I I consider myself as maybe B1-ish speaker, so I I know enough to get by, but, uh, because Russian represents kind of, uh, a way to economically advance. It did represent back then and it still does represent now, especially if you live in this part of the world. So in Central Asia, in many parts of Caucasus, and in Far East, Russian is a lingua franca. So that's what and, uh, I know that you're learning Russian. Um, you know, the fact that there are very few dialects, like there are almost no variations.

Right. That's very nice.

Yeah. People who live in in Eastern part of Ukraine, they they pronounce certain sounds differently. And, uh, people who live on on Far East or Sakhalin Island, they they speak they tend to speak faster. Okay. So that's as uh as diverse as it gets with with Russian. So I grew up speaking like very very standard Russian, and then I started it was mandatory for me to learn English at school. So I started at the age of six, seven, but, uh, so many things have been said about the school system and the way languages are taught in school, and my school was no exception. So I didn't like it until I was, uh, I would say 13, 14. I I became a Metallica fan, and I was kinda interested I I was curious what did the the lyrics mean. And that's when, uh, kinda now that I look back back in hindsight, I can say that my my my learning path started when I was like 13, 14.

Wow.

And, uh, I always had this, uh, image.

That's really cool. So you carried that, uh, sort of for a long time. Even before the age of, you know, 13.

Mm-hm. And I think even now if you ask an average Russian person, they they would say that they they they feel that French is, uh, is a prestige language. Which, which I think it is. I mean, it's it's a very nice I I enjoy listening to French and to German and to Spanish and to Italian. And I I I always had this idea and, uh, I would say in my second or in my third year, uh, of college, I when I really improved my English, I I thought, okay, if I can do this with one language, if I can get a get to a get to an advanced level, I could probably do the same thing with with dedication and effort and and time in other languages.

Nice.

So that's, uh, yeah, my language story.

That's cool. I I find it very interesting that you sort of took responsibility for your own learning at at such a young age. Um, I if I remember my time as a, you know, 13-year-old, I'd be like, if people didn't tell me to do stuff, I was very unlikely to do it. Like, uh, so that's that's very interesting that you started taking control of it. And also the idea you you said that if I can improve one language, then why can't I just learn more, you know? That's very cool too. That's pretty unique, I think. I don't do you do you have any idea how you got this sort of Well, I think, uh, clarity you can call it at a at a young age?

I think, uh, the key was the the exposure. Like, if I had stayed in my home country, then I would have ended up kinda settling for intermediate level communication level of English, and I would have figured out that, okay, that's that's it. English is, uh, the world business language and that would do. But, uh, when I saw, like I said, yeah, firsthand Latinos or French Canadians interacting with each other, and, uh, I would say the key was that I saw the all the emotions, like I saw people arguing, not necessarily having a boring conversation or attending lectures as, uh, as one might think, but I really saw a lot of a lot of drama. So, uh, yeah. Persons, uh, yeah, kinda joking around, arguing, and, uh, and I think, um, yeah, the the emotional attachment, the the exposure to, um, random bursts of emotions. I I think that that's also did contribute to my fascination.

Right. That's interesting. So being out of your own element in a way, in a in a foreign environment, really sparked something back then. Just a curiosity, maybe?

And even in in my first year of college, uh, as a native Russian speaker, I, um, I I spoke neither French nor Spanish back then. And I would, of course, interact with others in in English. And when even when having casual conversations with with Latinos or with French Canadians, we we all spoke English. At some level, I felt that it it was easier for me to to connect with them, to relate to them as opposed to, uh, English speaking Canadians. Maybe because, um, you you can argue that French, uh, languages like French and Spanish are closer to Russian. And, uh, like we all spoke broken English, but at some level there was this, uh, there was this, uh, way to connect. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I I I I'm sure there is. I I I always saw when when I the at my high school there was a Danish for non-speakers, basically, uh, a beginner class. And they were sort of brought in from all different classes because they chose different subjects and and so on and so forth. And and they were also from different years. But what would always happen was that these people would always befriend each other very dearly because they were sort of in the same boat. So I I can definitely see that happening if you have a bad level of a language, you're sort of you you understand what the other guy's going through, but you can communicate, which is also a liberating experience, I guess.

Oh, yeah. And, uh, it was a small town. I studied in in Nanaimo. That is situated on Vancouver Island, which is about two hour ferry ride from from Vancouver, in British Columbia. So it was a very, like very white town. And the genius thing that I did, that I tried my best not to spend a lot of time with other Russian speakers. I I was trying to hang out with, uh, with Canadian, with native with with English speaking Canadians. I should say. And, um, that did help me to improve my English faster than than than otherwise it might have taken a little bit longer if if I stayed in a in a bigger city where there would be a Russian speaking community.

Oh, yeah. I I suppose, yeah, that you can.

That happens all over the place when people, uh, go to some other country and they and then they just live in in a bubble.

Yeah. I guess often the language we hear about is English because a lot of people have English as their first language, but I guess it also happens for for Russian native speakers that they might go to schools that have, let's say, partnerships with Russian schools. So naturally they send a batch of students at the same time in exchange for some Canadian students. So I can see you can run into the problem anywhere with any native language, I guess.

Yeah. And it's natural thing to do because when you're abroad, uh, for the first couple of months, you can feel you can feel stressed, and, uh, that, uh, kind of cultural shock as they say.

For sure.

You can appreciate why why sometimes it's nice to speak your own language, but at the same time, uh, that's the best way to use your time abroad is to kinda hang out with with foreigners and and practice other languages.

Exactly. And you you learn so much by listening and using that language, even if you're at a lower level than the people you speak with, you still learn a lot just by using it and and speaking as much as you can.

Yeah, for sure.

So that's something I always wanted to do. I remember in when I was in school, I would see the flyers for the exchange programs, you know, like go to Australia, go to, I don't know what it said, you know, California or something. And I was like, wow, that would be really interesting. And, uh, then I saw the price and I was like, yeah, not really interested anymore. But,

Sometimes soon. Yeah.

Yeah. But, well, you can it depends if you can get into like, you know, the Erasmus program in Europe, they that's very nice. They get scholar they give scholarships, so it's it's not only free for the student, it's actually they also get extra money to cover. Well, usually beer, but probably not meant for that. So, if people if anyone's listening out there and, you know, are attending university, probably undergrad usually, right? Or no, I guess you can do it. I guess you can do it, uh, later as well, but this Erasmus program is worth looking into because you can take a semester or or maybe several abroad and and they will sponsor you as long as you find some partner schools and and stuff like that. So,

Yeah.

That's highly recommended. But, um, going back to language learning a little bit. So you you have this experience learning English in Canada, you want to improve it, you work for it, and then you realize, hmm, if I can learn English, I can probably learn other languages. So, can you talk us through that next experience there? What changed? And and what was the first thing for it? Was it French you went into after?

Yeah, it was kinda French and Spanish at the same at the same time.

Oh, was that the Michel Thomas?

Yeah. And, uh, I I had this idea, I had this, uh, desire to learn other language, but, uh, on the one hand, there was clarity. The there was clarity of of intent, meaning if you if you put a lot of effort and time into it, then you can reach a a good level. But, on the other hand, there was no clarity. I I had no idea how to go about it because, uh, I I started learning English, even though I didn't like it back then in, uh, in elementary school. But still, I mean, when you when you start when you're six year years old, like you it which kinda in a weird way enables you to to take lots of things for granted.

Yeah, it's automatic, right? You know, it just it just happens. So you you took it under your own, uh, sort of, uh, initiative.

Yeah. And, uh, and the reason I liked Michel Thomas method a lot at the beginning because it's kinda you're listening to those cassettes, you're listening to those CDs, and, uh, the master guides you through the process. He he kinda he he kinda shows you the, uh, how you can start learning words and use those words, those very frequently used words. You you won't find words like, oh, the sky is blue, the water is dry, and, uh, my uncle has, uh, new beautiful shoes. Like there's no sentences like that at the beginning. The sentences are very very simple, and, uh, you can picture yourself using those sentences. And and and if you if you read some some newspaper, you you would recognize those words, those very frequently used words straight away.

Oh, is this do you think this is by design?

Uh, I would think so, because,

Because I've only used it for I've only used it for French and Russian, and I I guess I see the pattern there.

Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and somewhere and somewhere on the periphery of your mind, you realize, oh, okay, if that person is struggling, then it's nothing wrong if if I struggle. I mean, not as much as, uh, that not particularly gifted student, but but still.

Some people say that that's, uh, that's one thing they don't like about Michel Thomas is that the students are making a lot of mistakes, and even though he does correct them, he's a lot of people are a little bit. I don't know. I I I think it's similar, it's real life. Because if you talk to someone, even native speakers are gonna make mistakes sometimes. So are you expecting that everywhere you go, listening to a new language, that it's gonna be perfect all the time? So I I I enjoy the format a lot, and I I blazed through all the Russian ones. I would say if I had to give one criticism to Michel Thomas, it's probably that it's kind of a short course, I think. It didn't take me long to finish it, uh, at all. And I I don't know how, well, it's very useful because you get the structure and for instance, with the French, I was completely blown away by the fact that you could after I think it's on their first CD or tape or whatever it is, that you say something like, "What do you think of the political and economical situation in France?" That's what you're saying in lesson one. And it's like, what? How did I just say that in French? And even the students are like, they're like laughing when he asked them to say it, and they they say it, you know, they they take some time, but they get to they say it right, and, you know, for me that was a real eye-opener that, you know, language learning is really particularly cognates, are a huge part of.

A lot of words for free.

Yeah. I can I can definitely relate to your point when you say that there are there are indeed some negative aspects when it comes to Michel Thomas courses. I would also point out the fact that, well, for German, his pronunciation is very questionable. I learned German with Michel Thomas and, uh, and then it took me about five, six months to kinda adjust my pronunciation to sound sound better. So if if anyone is is listening right now and learning German using Michel Thomas courses, yeah, the structure is good. Structure-wise, very perfectly almost perfectly organized course, but, yeah, but but his pronunciation is very Right. Questionable. So for the Yeah. And, uh, yeah, and and like you pointed out, the fact that it's short. And I would recommend Michel Thomas courses for those who are learning their second or third, uh, language. Once you once you've covered enough ground, once you once you're once you start learning like your fourth or fifth language, especially if that language is related to any other languages that you know already, then, uh, I think by that point the language learner generally develops kinda his or her own meta method because we're all different, and it's important to realize that some person likes talking about political and economical situation, and another another person might be interested in in fashion or or in in cooking. So each and every one of us has has has their unique frequency words list.

Of course.

And, uh, yeah. And you should kinda at some intuitive level, you should you should always ask yourself, okay, can I picture myself using this word in a real situation or Right. Yeah, or not. If not, then at the very beginning, it's it's very important to be lazy. Like if you if you take it slowly and if you are a lazy language learner, then the the whole process will will go.

That's me. That's me. For sure.

It takes me it takes me so long, but I don't I don't mind, you know, it's not a race, and I feel like if I if I go all in and spend, you know, five hours a day, I'll just I'll just get bored with it and just not do anything. So I'd rather just do whatever I feel like and just take it easy and, you know, schedule some tutoring regularly so I have some anchor points. But, you know, studying, let's say, a book every day or listening every day. I try usually, particularly because I'm studying Hungarian in Hungary. I listen to it all the time, of course, but yeah, I think the whole speed is a little overrated anyway. You can be very fast if you want to, but for me, it's more important just to have a little bit of fun with it, and,

Especially when you're learning, uh, an exotic language, which is so distant from your mother tongue, then patience is key. And, uh, another thing I noticed that every once in a while, for example, I would get a feeling that, oh my god, I'm never gonna learn this language. That that feeling of frustration and helplessness. But I, uh, for the last couple of months, I'm I I was trying to reframe it for myself that, uh, there's one of those paradoxes in life that the more you learn something, the more you find out about something, the the more you feel that you that you don't know anything.

Yeah.

And, um, whenever I would get that with, um, language learning, when it comes to language learning, I I would actually make myself feel excited. I I I would tell to myself a story, okay, I get this feeling that I'm that that there is so much more to learn, but the only reason I get that feeling because I'm actually learning something.

Yeah, you made it. You made it above the beginner hump or intermediate mountain or whatever you want to call it, you know.

Yeah. Otherwise, uh, you you wouldn't have the ability to appreciate how much more you you have to learn. You you wouldn't have had this ability in the first place.

That's true. And we also are really bad at evaluating our own ability, I think. Because we think, oh, I don't I can't do conversations very well, so I must be very bad at the language. But then some speaker might list 200 words and you and you know all of them. You know, the so language learning is not this sort of linear journey where every checkpoint, you learn a specific thing. You might learn a tons of things, but then somebody asks you a question and you're like, I don't know what that means. I I missed it, you know, and that doesn't mean that you're a hopeless language learner or you don't know the language very well. I mean, even native speakers, if you ask native speakers of English, you know, there's like 200,000 words in the dictionary or something like that, maybe more. They don't know all the words. So, you know, if you don't know a word or something, it doesn't mean you're you haven't learned anything. It doesn't mean you're a terrible language learner. It just means that you didn't learn that particular word.

Yeah, we all we all have gaps, even even in in our own languages.

For sure. I mean, I I I I still run into words in Danish, and I'm like, what does this mean? I've never seen this before, you know, and some words are just archaic or very niche, so they're used in a specific, uh, area of of life, and you might never see them, or you might see them every day. So I I think the key, like you said, is to you know, not really worry about it. Just, you know, take it easy, and I also that's also a Michel Thomas philosophy, isn't it? Don't worry about it. If you start worrying, then,

Don't you say, yeah, don't even try to remember.

Right. He's like, let the process do the work and don't worry about it. Now, I don't know if there are any actual research to the idea that if you ask someone to remember something, will they be less likely to remember it? What do you think?

I'm not sure. I I think it's, uh, it's his way to take away the pressure for for kinda I mean, the guy used to charge $10,000 for for his course. I mean, he has to he has to be different from from his competition. So I guess that was his catchphrase.

Don't try to remember. Yeah.

And the guy would charge $10,000 in, um, in in early 90s. So back then if you,

A lot of money, yeah.

If you talk about, uh, inflation adjustment, that that would probably be like $25,000 now nowadays.

Yeah. I'm not sure he would get 10,000 today because learning has become a lot easier, and globalization and everything, but if you're one of the first true polyglots, a true famous polyglots of the world, and there's some movie star who wants to learn French quickly, Yeah. you can charge whatever you want, right? I mean, you have some knowledge that nobody else has. Today, luckily, we're we have a whole community. We have the polyglot community, so called. And, uh, we have a lot of fun with that and and with the events and,

I feel like our community is like, uh, an an open source movement. I I mean, such companies like Windows or Apple still exist, and they still charge high prices for their for their software or hardware. But, uh, there's also this open source community, and you can download all the similar software for for free or or even you can even there's a way even to to improve the code.

Right. If you're like, I wanted to do this as well. And they're like, okay, well, do it, you know.

And what we do we're like, yeah, open source guys. Yeah. I mean, I think I I think it's great. I mean, the energy in general is is very good.

Yeah, you you've been to the polyglot events, you know, we we just recently caught up in New York of all places. Don't you think it's it's kind of funny that, uh, you know, what is it? Three, four months ago, we were standing outside a theater in Chelsea in New York, talking about languages. And now we're connected across the world through the magic of the internet, talking about language learning. It's unbelievable.

It's unbelievable. And, uh, when you when you follow like, uh, several guys on YouTube or via Facebook, uh, I I think it's it's a great experience that the fact that we can relate to each other at some deep experiential level without necessarily sharing, uh, cups of coffee every day or without necessarily, uh, you know, talking to each other often. But but the fact that, unfortunately, there are so few people in general are interested in in learning languages, in, um, in in a deliberate learning, when you deliberately put put effort and kinda make it happen for yourself. That's why we, because of the fact that we are a rare breed. I think there's, uh, there's this, yeah, deep experiential level.

Yeah. And for instance, when I go to the polyglot, uh, gathering, which is very informal, I don't know, were you there last year? I I don't think we spoke.

No, no, no. I I I I've never been to Berlin. I haven't been to Berlin yet.

You have to come. You have to come. Uh, I'm sure a lot of people have told you that. But, um, when I go to Berlin, because it's such an informal setting, you know, the conference is a two days, lots of talks, it's very sort of business like, it's it's very hardcore in a way. It's only two days. You only have two days. So everything's rushed. But when you go to Berlin, it's like the whole program is spanned over four days, but people usually stay, they come a day before and they stay a day after. So essentially you have almost a week, and then you're like, everything just slows down, and you just relax. And every talk is recorded. So if you're sitting, you know, it's lovely weather in May, usually, if you're sitting outside grabbing a coffee and you don't quite make it to the next talk, it's like, whatever, it's on YouTube, you know, I'm having fun. I'm chilling with what essentially it feels like for me is like a family when I go there.

I I would say, yeah, I I I would go as far as saying that maybe there's another like even even more even deeper level when you the more languages you share, the more you accept another person. I I mean, I I'm perfectly fine. I I would be happy to talk to a person who's interested in in other languages that I haven't even tried studying. But when when there's also the fact that you share like three, four languages, and you kinda and you study them all, that I think gives an an additional, you know, interesting points.

Yeah, we we could talk about Hungarian grammar, you know? What do you think? I think it's awesome.

For some reason, uh, I'm I'm a little bit biased when it comes to German. Like when when I know that a person, uh, did learn German as a foreign language, all of a sudden I I, uh, to to me it's like it's like a different level of accepting that person because because I love German so much. And, uh, if I know if a even if it's a more or less accomplished polyglot, but didn't even try to learn German. I mean, I I would still be fascinated, but but yeah, but not to such extent.

Yeah, I think most of them know German, but yeah. It's it's one of the few languages that can literally give me the chills when I hear a native speaker say like, uh, subjunctive or something like that. You know, to me, that's just I mean, that's language porn right there. And and the weird part is that German is not my that I'm not being, you know, biased because German is my first language. But but because because I enjoyed the process of learning German German so much, that's why I kinda,

Yeah.

I I just love the sound of it. I just love the sound when people put a lot of verbs at the end. I don't know why, it just sounds so awesome. Yeah. And yeah, it's it's a great language, it sounds awesome, and yeah, so I love it too, and it's my third language, so, you know, I'm not a native speaker either. And I actually don't speak it very well. Like I could get away with normal conversations with mistakes here and there, usually ending mistakes. Uh, but I I don't know, the endings in German are a little bit stupid anyway, I think. That's that's my one minor complaint I have is that, you know, a lot of the time the end the meaning of a word in a sentence is already indicated by the ending. So it doesn't really make sense to conjugate the the things in front as well. But, it's very very very deep complaint, but, uh, one day I will learn it. One day I'll go to Germany for like six months just to learn the endings.

Yeah, that'll be that'll be a good experience.

Yeah. It's it's uh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's true. I'm right I'm right next to Austria, actually. Did you know that the Vienna is called the beach in Hungarian?

Uh, no, no, I didn't know that.

It's so random. But, you know, obviously a lot of languages have different names for cities, but I always thought that they kind of reminded me of the original. But, uh, Vienna, Vien, Beach. Uh, maybe a Hungarian person listening can explain to me why that name came to be because I I definitely don't understand it. Um, So, so what else do you use, uh, apart from Michel Thomas? What what else do you like to use to to learn your new languages?

I think another important aspect is the fact that it's in general, language learning process is a is a very it's it's a dynamic process. In the sense that whether you want it or not, and whether you realize it or not, that your language learning method or your language learning routine would would would always evolve. So as I said before, if if if person is studying their second or third foreign language, then Michel Thomas is a is a great place to start. But once you once you've once you've gone once you have, you know, four, five languages under your belt, even if those are at B1, B2-ish level, then you, uh, even without realizing, you end up developing your own algorithms. And, uh, and, uh, and you you you go from, uh, one of the Michel Thomas's students to becoming an independent independent language learner.

Do you mean just copying the whole lesson word for word?

Uh, yeah, word for word. But but because I'm a lazy language learner, I I would only do that when I can clearly picture myself using that sentence in real life situation. So, uh, which which which means that I would rewrite probably, I would say, 60% of, uh, of each lesson and maybe roughly 50, 60% of the book. And, uh, that did work for me well for, uh, when I when I was done with Michel Thomas courses and when I went and, uh, uh, and and studied those languages further. Like I I used Assimil for French, for German, for Italian and for and for Spanish.

Wow. So did you?

Yeah. And especially when when fixing German accent.

Yeah. You got the Michel Thomas Polish, uh, whatever his his accent was. He was a bit of a, I guess he was he was French Polish or.

I think it was a it was a mix of of Polish and French.

But actually a good a good point about the newer Assimil or not the newer Assimil, but the newer Michel Thomas is that they follow the method but they have a native speaker. So the the pronunciation is better. I know, you know, it's kinda cool to be taught by Michel Thomas, and also, oh yeah. He was the master as you say. Um, but for Russian, for instance, I mean, that she's a university professor from UCL, I think, University College London. Um, I tried to email her, and if if for any chance you're listening to the show, I think she's called Natasha, maybe. I don't know. Maybe I'm just guessing now, but, uh, if if you want to, uh, do a little interview, that would be very fun, I thought. Um, but it's just a better quality because it's a really native speaker instead of that.

For for languages like Portuguese, Russian, Polish, Greek, Yeah. Now they they work with native speakers.

I think it's essential. I guess when Michel Thomas was recording the German and the Spanish, he was selling a lot of the product based on his name. And today it's more of a Michel Thomas method. It's not we're not buying Michel, we're buying his methods. Whereas back then, he was probably selling himself, basically. I think that's a higher form of prostitution, but, uh, very nice with.

If, uh, Hollywood stars and prime ministers were so desperate to to have him, uh, teach them, then then why not? I mean, uh, yeah. So meaning that they were kinda chasing him, then if in such a situation like the the guy can charge whatever he wants.

Brand value, that's what I say. So, uh, one of the most fascinating documentaries I ever saw was the Michel Thomas one where he I if if people are want to more learn more about him, you can watch this documentary where he takes over an English, uh, school classroom or school class, and he takes over for I mean, it's a very short period of time. It's like two, three weeks, maybe. Something like that. And I I think you get rid of all of all the tables and Yeah, he just changed everything.

And then, Yeah.

He's got like nice chairs, and no tables, and there's like plants and everything. And I'm thinking, hmm, just on a sort of logical level, would you think you were more comfortable in an armchair or in a wooden five dollar chair from, you know, uh, school, uh, wholesale school or whatever. You know, so I I guess that has something to do with it. But just the just the effect that it had on the children's confidence, which has to be a factor in language acquisition as as a young person. If you feel like you're not learning anything, then it becomes that, oh, I don't have the language gene. I don't know how to learn. I don't but if you get the confidence empowered by someone like Michel or the method, then even though, let's say, for the sake of argument, let's say that the Michel Thomas is is as effective as any other course, just using that sort of confidence building will allow them to become much better learners in in general. You know, it's not about learning French or anything. It's just about getting that win that positive feeling. So, big fan of Michel Thomas as well, and it's a very interesting documentary how.

Yeah. Those courses definitely provide you with confidence and the clarity. I think that while listening to Michel Thomas, and especially if you do a little bit of rewriting, even though he he was against rewriting stuff, but that that helps you to form a base of templates. So you learn structure, and then you you kinda replenish your base of templates that that you use in your in your speech, in everyday situations, and then you can, uh, as you expand your vocabulary from from other sources, you can, um, use different words, but the templates stay the same. And, uh, and you have the same level of confidence, you just, uh, replace the words. So, uh, it's a it's a very solid base base. The those courses can can definitely provide you with a with a very solid foundation.

Awesome.

Still still too early in a day to to watch news reports in Hungarian. But maybe maybe yeah. We'll see. Or in six months. We'll see how it goes.

It takes a long time. Well, it takes a long time to understand them. You can listen to them any time. But, Yeah. And the good thing is, yeah, it's it's it's the same, it's the same news report. So so you you you kinda already know what's going on.

Uh-huh.

Uh, I think that one of the enemies, uh, for language learning is also the the perfectionism. I mean, perfectionism can can be in general, very very dangerous thing in life that that would hold you back for for years and years and.

Right.

How do we stay away from perfectionism? What's the mental mindset? Because I'm definitely I've struggled with perfectionism a lot.

Well, I I think the the main belief should be that even a native speaker who who's not particularly interested interested in in this topic would have gaps. A native speaker who who was, uh, who's learning the language since ever since they they were born. So, uh, how can you expect anything from from a foreigner who is kinda struggling, struggling his or her way to to fluency? So, uh,

That's yeah. It's it's tough because I feel like when I want to say something, uh, I guess there's different stages. There's like the complete ignorance. If you don't know what you're saying is wrong, then you can't feel the perfectionism because you don't know it wrong, it's wrong. But then you enter into that sort of conscious incompetent stage where I know that this is wrong, but I don't know how to correct it. And that's where for me it gets the perfectionism comes in.

I mean, I I think in such case a good idea might be to in general, to to slow the intensity of communication down. If if life conversation face-to-face is a is as it as it intense as it can get, then the the slower version would be sending each other voice notes through WhatsApp or Viber. So that does slow down the and, uh, instant messaging is even even slower, or you can argue that, uh, it's almost the same as exchanging voice notes. And, uh, or and then if if you want to really slow the process down and and, uh, get feedback on your mistakes or inaccuracies, you can, uh, kinda find an an email partner and send each other emails like once once a day or twice a day.

Or a pen friend, you can send postcards around the world. Which is a good fun.

And, uh, yeah, and when you talk to yourself, uh, I think you can very get the most of that activity if you have a small, uh, notebook and a and a pen or or a pencil and write down every when when you when you say, oh, I wish I wish I knew that word. And if you write that word down in the moment, then you can, uh, then you can end up with a list of maybe 10, 15 words. Uh, and, uh, and then you can think of what, uh, what are the topics that are related to those words and kinda, uh, really fill your gaps that way.

Try to make some sentences. You know, just use the words, I guess, is the biggest problem. Actually, I'm I'm I'm really happy to do these interviews because you'd think after interviewing like 80 language learners, that I would know everything there is to know about learning languages. But the funny thing is, and I I I guess this is also why people keep listening to the podcast, is that you can get the same information more times, but until you kind of need it, the information can come at a time where you don you don't really need it, or you don't really know you need it. The information, even though you've heard it before, it just makes an impact.

And there's so many apps nowadays are cloud-based, so it's very easy to you you don't you don't need to worry about the synchronization. You can you can even create a, uh, Google Doc for yourself. That's what I've been doing when when I kinda practicing my, uh, kinda attempts to improve my simultaneous interpretation skills. I I created a Google Doc to myself, which I'm able to access from my phone, from my tablet, and from my computer. And I would review that Google Doc, I don't know, three, four times per day, and I would even, uh, keep keep adding more words and more translations to to that.

So you add the words that you didn't know or.

Uh, yeah, the words that I didn't know. And, uh, and and there's a separate Google Doc for, uh, kinda talking to myself practice. The the word I wish I knew.

Right. Yeah, this is fascinating. I I I think that this is something I should definitely be doing more of just to improve because it's tough to improve if you don't know what you're missing. But if you write down the words that you definitely miss, because it's probably it's probably a word that you miss regularly. Like if you went to Hungary now, and you you were you wrote down the words that you're missing every day. It'd probably be many of the same words because we are creatures of habit, and the words that I speak to you now are, you know, top 50, top 100 frequency words that I use all the time. So if I didn't know any of those, I would need to know that right away, and it would give me a ridiculous boost in in vocabulary so fast, like percentage-wise, of course.

And I would say when when doing that, uh, probably 90% of language learners would would give up if I if I suggest them to, uh, keep a list of words you wish you knew because the natural tendency is to be disappointed with yourself. Oh, how come I didn't know this word? I mean, uh, this is not working. Language learning is a slow process. I'm I'm never I'm never gonna get good. It's it's again, it's it's always important to keep in mind that, uh, yeah, instead of being discouraged, it's better to be it's better to become excited about not not knowing this word, and, uh, uh, the fact that you, uh, it's almost better to focus on the fact that you kinda brought more clarity into the language learning process as opposed to avoiding those gaps and, uh, by avoiding those gaps, you you you don't you never eliminate those gaps.

Right. What do you think about typing the list into flash card apps like Memrise or Anki?

Well, I I'm very, uh, kinda I consider myself which you might say an unorthodox guy. When when I go to the gym, for example, the the simpler the the exercise, I think the more efficient it is. I mean, not to disparage the different apps, but but I think the if if you keep it keep it simple, you you can get very good results without necessarily, uh, overcomplicating, uh, stuff and and without necessarily, uh, spending a lot of.

Right.

So for me, yeah, Google Doc. If if you ask many accomplished polyglots, I mean, you'd be surprised how simple their routine is. Like no, uh, no super expensive apps involved. Yeah, it's just, uh, I would say the key is, yeah, to master consistency and consistency, clarity and, uh, and discipline, I suppose.

And those are some of the hardest things in life. So, so it's, uh, again, very encouraging, uh, for sure.

Yeah, another another portion of, uh, yeah, encouragement.

Yeah, it's like, oh, you just need to master what 99% of the population can't do with anything. But other than that, it's easy to learn.

Other than that, yeah, it's it's very well, and I would definitely say maybe, uh, a talent is a factor. Even though, I mean, there is this, uh, popular thing, and I I find that it's, uh, in in our language learning communities, many people say, oh, but consistency is is more important than, uh, than, uh, than natural talent. I would say, uh, whatever I managed to to achieve, whatever kinda intermediate upper intermediate level with all the languages that I speak now, I would say, um, maybe 30 or 40% comes from comes from natural talent. So I I'm not a super hard-working guy. I'm not, uh, I'm a lazy I'm a very lazy learner. Yeah, like I said.

Yeah. You keep saying that, but I I mean, that's that's me as well. I don't I don't know, there's a good quote, um, like hard work beats talent if talent is not willing to work hard. So, I mean, just because you're not talented in languages, it doesn't mean you don't it doesn't mean you can't learn it. I think talent is mostly about efficiency, really. It's about like some people can learn to speak pretty well in three months. Yeah. Whereas I would need a lot longer, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible for me, you know, that's I think that's the good thing about it. That talent for me is more about the speed, the the efficiency. Yeah. And,

And I would say yeah, you you it's it's good that you mentioned the the efficiency is is a very interesting word. Uh, I would say that it's it's about being honest with yourself. Uh, I read an article the other day, and it says that we have a limited amount of willpower for the day, and it can be depleted very quickly. Right. So when, uh, when when when I find out about some some crazy methods that people use like rewriting the the whole book. Like or, uh, I don't know, or listening to the to the newscast and and kinda trying to transcribe it. So, uh, if if if the emotion of disappointment or if a discouragement can can kicks in, then the the whatever the reservoir of willpower you have for the day is is gonna be is gonna disappear in no time. Right.

Yeah, and have fun. I and it's funny that and also one of the things that we I I think we should should mention is that when when I talk about methods on the podcast, some people have said, well, why are we even talking about methods because it's so different to any to everyone. But the fact of the matter is that we're talking about methods, and when I say method, I talk about like Assimil or Michel Thomas or using shadowing or flash cards, or whatever you could think of. The reason that we're talking about them is not to sort of recommend one over the other. The the reason that I'm talking about it here is to just get the experience of others. Like what did you use? And that doesn't mean this is a complete this is what you should do. But it's just an introduction to the to get to open your mind. Because some people might not know about Michel Thomas. I'm sure there are some people who haven't heard of it. I mean, it's pretty popular, but still. So if you've never heard about it, how can you know if you if you like it or not?

As long as you feel as long as you feel attached to the process or to to the book, then.

He just love doing it. He just love doing it. He would do it for hours and hours and hours. And so eventually, what I realized was the method that you choose is not important, as long as it's one you can spend a lot of time on and you enjoy doing it. Because it's funny that efficiency doesn't matter, you know? If you

Yeah.

If you spend the time whatever method whatever method enables you to to become consistent and consistent and to stick to spend the time whatever method whatever method doesn't repel you. We we can put it this way.

Yeah, exactly.

Like whatever method that doesn't bore you after two minutes. So I mean, you need to find that method, and here I'm talking to the listeners that, you know, try a lot of different methods. A lot of programs and and and particularly these very popular courses that we talk about, Michel Thomas, Pimsleur, all these program, Living Languages, all these kind of programs can usually be found at your local library. You know, in many countries.

There's an interesting book, the title is Mastery by Leonard and, uh, one of the quotes that I like is, uh, cultivating the ability to enjoy staying on the plateau and to practicing for the sake of practice without being emotionally invested in in the outcome. And, uh, the irony of it all that when you cultivate the this ability to enjoy practice for the sake of practicing, then all of a sudden you're gonna realize that the the plateau has ended, and, uh, the the brain will give you a hint, okay, give me some more complicated content.

Yeah.

So the that's one of those paradoxes, like the the more you chase something, the the further it moves away from you. When once you, uh, stop being too emotionally attached to the outcome, then all of a sudden it it kinda it comes to you naturally.

Right. Yeah, definitely.

And and this definitely works with with languages.

Yeah. So I I just love that whole idea because I wasn't even thinking about it. I was caught up in the idea of how can we learn languages faster, and how can we be more efficient, and at the end of the day, the method that's gonna give you the most success is the one that you can do. And honestly, some of these methods are ridiculously boring. And like you said, you're a lazy learner, I I also am, and for me, like reading books is something I don't do very well anymore, uh, because I don't know, I blame like computers and stuff for that. When I was younger, I feel like I could read for a long time, but now it's like really boring. So for me, it's about, you know, doing things that I really enjoy. And at the end of the day, you know, learning a language, let's say in three months, it's not about the months, but about the hours, right? So if you if you weren't

What's that, sir? For example, if if a native Spanish speaker decides to learn Italian, I mean it it is I think it is possible to to reach a good level within three months.

Oh, yeah, for sure, definitely.

But you can't do it doing a method that you don't you can't do for 10 minutes a day. But if you find the method that you can sit and do for eight hours and have fun with, you can get really fine in eight months. You just need to find whatever works for you basically. And that's kinda like a a bail out answer in a way because we're we're kinda dancing around the issue, but the fact of the matter is that language is just not objective, and while we can recommend things that have worked for us, or all the guests I asked like, what do you use? And, you know, Assimil's really popular. It doesn't mean that the listeners like Assimil the same way. Some might find it boring, you know, it's a really long book, and it's a really some of the sentences are a little bit questionable. That's probably why you ignored some of them.

There are so many so many aspects that are so, uh, counterintuitive when it comes to Like brain has its own weird ways into tricking tricking us. And, uh, that's why I I think, uh, we we should also find ways to trick our brains. For example, when I when I'm not particularly, uh, motivated to do anything whatsoever, with language learning, I I say to myself, okay, I'm gonna open the Euronews website, and I'm gonna translate one sentence. That that's what I tell to myself. I I opened some news report. Okay, I'm gonna do one sentence today. And then I end up, okay, I guess I I might as well do the second and the third one. And and I and I end up, you know, practicing for 30, 40 minutes in a row.

That is genius, yeah. I've heard about that. It's it's some people call it habit stacking where you you just do a little little thing. It's like, uh, actually going to the gym is another example. It's funny how these things always work together. Um, but some people say instead of saying, when you wake up in the morning, I'm gonna go run for an hour on the treadmill, just go just get out of bed and say, I'm gonna go to the gym, and then I'm gonna go home.

Yeah.

And most people when they're at the gym, and they got their gym clothes, and their shoes, and their bag. They're like, oh, well, fuck it. I'm here anyway, so I might as well work out, right? And this concept totally applies, uh, for language learning, like, I'll do one flash card, and then you're like, oh, well, okay, I'll do some. And even if you only do five minutes, you know, that's still four minutes and 50 seconds more than you plan, right?

Yeah.

And then the next time you'll do five minutes and 30 seconds, and then so on and so forth. So that's that's a that's a top tip. That's a top language learning ninja tip at the end of the at the end of the episodes here. I appreciate it. So do you have any final, uh, any final golden nuggets of information about language learning that we haven't covered yet? I think we've been pretty much around the topic.

Um, yeah, and I would say, uh, emotional attachment, consistency, being lazy, keep keeping in mind that the we all have a limited amount of willpower. I mean, sure, it's it's like a muscle. I mean, if you practice for 10 or 15 years, then the there is a way to increase the the reservoir, the the base base baseline level of, uh, willpower in general. But but but even then it it will still be limited. So that's why, uh, yeah, by sticking something to to something that you really love, you can develop consistency and and yeah, become fluent in in whatever language. Whatever language you want.

And, uh, I guess one final addition to that is, uh, if you're struggling with doing language learning at the end of the day or after you're done with work or your chores or whatever. Uh, try doing language learning at the first thing in the morning. Uh, I don't remember who said it. I think it might have been

that's what that's what the willpower is at at all time high in general. Yeah, that's why.

I think Brian Tracy said, do the worst first. Eat the biggest the ugliest frog the first thing in the morning.

Yeah, exactly.

It's like, you know, and it it sounds kinda bad because it sounds like language learning is not enjoyable. It sounds like it's some kind of thing you just need to do, but the fact of the matter is anything, even if you really enjoy it, if you have to do it consistently, the brain turns it into this kind of chore thing, right? So we really need to hack the brain to to say, okay, we'll just do one flash card, that's it, brain, promise.

Yeah, and the learning the learning habit or the way we learn changes, I mean, there's no doubt that somebody who's 12 and, you know, wants to learn his first language is gonna learn a lot differently than the 35-year-old who only knows three languages.

So I guess a big message that to come out of this episode is like, don't try and, you know, make it don't try to assume that every advice fits everyone. I mean, this is it's a very subjective area of of knowledge, and just experiment. Try everything. Get the free trials, uh, if somebody has an Assimil, you know, ask if you could borrow it, and and if you really like it, you know, buy your own copy, and and support the company. And and that's it, you know, there are lots of courses. And of course, if you listen to the podcast regularly, you get lots of recommendations. It's very rare that we directly, uh, talk about not getting something, you know, the it's very rare that we, uh, I guess do the beat down on some products. But there are you know, honestly, language learning is such a big industry that you're gonna find questionable products out there. I I've been lucky enough not to encounter too many, but, you know, generally, as long as you do something, you're progressing in language learning. I guess that's the the conclusion. All right, I mean, well, thank you so much for for joining me here on the show. I really appreciate it, and,

Yeah.

Thank you for considering me, Kris. It was, uh,

No, that's an honor. And I just wanted to give a a shout-out to your YouTube channel where you have a lot of interesting videos, and one thing I like is that you produce videos not only in English, which is, uh, YouTube for the YouTube's a little bit rare. Uh, but you have a lot of Russian videos, and for people learning, uh, foreign languages from Russian, which I think is very cool.

In general, I started kinda creating value for Russian speakers, but now I'm kinda I I for for for every video that I produce for Russian speakers, I decided to produce the the English version. So it's to to make my channel more international.

Well, that's twice the fun. I mean, the good thing about doing the Russian videos is you can get Russian native speakers, but you can also get people like me who's learning Russian to watch them. Um, that would be kinda interesting. Uh, more of that. Uh, but anyway, that that YouTube channel and also all the other things that we've been talking about, you can find on actualfluency.com/317. That's season three, episode 17. So I'll list every link there and I'll I'll link to your YouTube channel as well as everything else. So, thank you so much, and I I hope to see you somewhere soon in, uh, in Europe.

Thank you, Kris. Yeah, we'll definitely, yeah, we'll see you soon.

Cheers.

Yeah. Cheers.

Thank you for listening to the Actual Fluency Podcast.